From the /r/games thread on the story:
There is a good chance these policies are the progenitors to future genocide. People are going to die from these seemingly innocuous policies. This isn't your usual gaming news, this is very serious and chilling and should be discussed as such.
Look out everybody, Xi's about to make :gamer-gulag: a reality
Yeah obviously, gaming is how we build tolerance and acceptance of other cultures!!! Just keep those SJWs out of my games!
“I can’t find anything bad about this, but maybe there will be really bad stuff in the future! I am very smart”
Do people who vomit shit out like this even know what genocide means. It's actually pretty offensive and disgusting to me when people say shit like that. If anyone said anything about the US prison system and their disastrous handling of covid killing off inmates being worse than anything China has done you'd be flamed so hard.
China should just stick with "Hey, no microtransactions" and not try to legislate morality or whatever.
Obscenity, violence and effeminacy are cool.
If I remember correctly, the “effeminacy” thing China has been gunning against isn’t about gender expression as much as “idol culture”. I’ll see if I can find the threads I was reading on that from a queer activist in China.
As is typical, the western media happily jumped on trying to use this as a propaganda angle. The thread I was reading had some criticism of other policies because China isn’t a utopia, but it was pretty clear on the intent there.
Edit: Found it. Thread on the topic from our comrades over at r/GenZedong.
Nah, it's blatant sexism/homophobia and moral panic. Critical support means you call out the bad things.
It's in incredibly obvious that China is worried about "lazy/decadent youth" fucking up their military ambitions and cratering the birth rates (dropping birth rates are already a public worry). This is a hamfisted attempt to whip them into shape pushes by older social conservatives in the Party.
Your read on this being a reaction from older social conservatives likely has good merit.
China has plenty of its own social issues with queer / LGBTQ+ rights (eg gay marriage still being illegal) and is not always going to line up with our own cultural indicators either.
Understanding the context involved with a policy like this allows us to critique it more clearly than the very generalized take on it we’re seeing from most western press.
Given our media’s vested interest in attacking China from any angle they can, I think it’s healthy to not take these stories at face value when they’re first presented to us.
“Old social conservatives in the party being reactionary” is a much more coherent cause to me than “the entire authoritarian Chinese government hates femboys”.
I agree with you and I've said so in other threads, but this is a pretty bad look even if the Western Press is being their usual lying selves.
Completely agree. I suspect it’s a mixture of a legitimate issue + being amplified / potentially exaggerated by the western press.
A major point I’ve seen made is that the specific “aesthetic” they mentioned is associated with plastic surgery, specifically the 双眼皮 (“double eyelid”) surgery, which is done to make people look more “western” (eg white). It was unsurprisingly popularized in the occupied south of Korea.
This topic understandably hits a nerve for all of us as leftists because we’re actively fighting for queer / trans / LGBTQ+ liberation here as well.
I strongly suspect that there is a component of wanting to counter a trend of viewing white/european as being physically “above” actual Chinese people. There are likely other aspects as well here (in fact I’d bet on it), but I’ve seen this theme show up enough while reading about this that it’s worth mentioning.
Okay, well that's good if that one is a misunderstanding.
...Still want my obscenity and violence tho.
That's bullshit.
Here's the actual circular: http://www.nrta.gov.cn/art/2021/9/2/art_113_57756.html
It also targets idol culture, but they're using that as an excuse to enforce some really harmful toxic masculinity.
Article three, where the NRTA demands that media organisations (translation by DeepL):
Resolutely resist pan-entertainment. We should firmly establish cultural confidence and vigorously promote the excellent Chinese traditional culture, revolutionary culture and advanced socialist culture. Establish the correct aesthetic orientation of the programme, strictly control the selection of actors and guests, performance style, costumes and make-up, and resolutely put an end to perverted aesthetics such as "sissies". Resolutely resist the tendency of pan-entertainment such as speculation on ostentatious wealth, gossip and privacy, negative hotspots, vulgar "net celebrities" and bottomless ugliness.
Is disgusting and harmful.
It's using the classic nazbol take that not conforming to traditional gender roles is bourgeois counterrevolutionary decadence (with the added chinese context of the conspiracy that the west is trying to make chinese men effeminate for ???? reasons) to discriminate against people who don't conform to traditional gender roles.
The word translated to “sissies” there is "Niangpao/娘炮", correct?
Twitter thread on this, notable quote:
Chinese Gov/Media should have never used the word "Niangpao/娘炮". A term that IS derogatory BUT NOT anti LGBT. Netizens have pushed back before online at the use of the term.
China has gone after vapid celeb culture which includes the 'idols' & capitalist-created “beauty norms”
State reforms of the entertainment industry include:
- No employment of Criminals.
- Capping of sky-high payments for stars.
- Ban on programs raising idols or employing stars' children.
- Setting up lists to encourage fans to purchase items or pay members fees to support idols.
- Punish industry tax evasion.
- Crackdown on internet media platforms pursuing clickbait.
- Banning minors from participating in reality shows.
- No idol competition programs.
- Programs shouldn't promote an incorrect representation of beauty.
- Ban on showing off wealth. +more
Instead, this is being spun by corporate media to attempt to use LGBT as a weapon.
Another thread on Niangpao, mentioning its association with facial reconstruction surgery, particularly the “double eyelid” surgery popularized in South Korea.
Thread discussing Chinese stars who would be affected if this is actually as drastic as it’s being portrayed in western media. Contains good criticism of the Chinese governments word choice as well.
So a sweeping anti-corruption reform bill for China’s entertainment industry is passed that contains in part of it what seems like a poor choice of words. I say “seems like” because I’m not a native speaker of Mandarin, so have to go off of what I’ve read from those who are.
The majority of the bill then isn’t mentioned by most western media or provided for context, but the word used is then seemingly mistranslated and then begins showing up in multiple articles about China “cracking down on effeminate/girly men”.
That checks all the boxes to me of another propaganda exercise, which is extremely frustrating because it sounds like China shouldn’t have used that word to begin with.
I wouldn’t be surprised if it even started with journalists being lazy and putting the bill through an online translator instead of having it actually translated by a native speaker. I understand any of us doing that, but a paid journalist reporting on the story should have known better.
I haven't seen anything to suggest it's a mistranslation.
Sixth Tone a CPC outlet, translated it the same way writing:
In a notice Thursday, the National Radio and Television Administration listed a range of ideological and physical traits for artists working in the cultural and entertainment industry, banning those with “incorrect political views,” “wrong moral standards,” and “wrong aesthetics,” referring to “sissy” male actors deemed too effeminate.
I absolutely agree that the rest of the circular is pretty cool, that 娘炮 isn't necessarily associated with non-straight sexuality in China, and that US corporate media will go out of its way to portray the CPC in the worst possible way, but I don't think that changes much about what I'm saying.
Legislating against men presenting "too effeminate" in media on the grounds that it's perverse and counter-revolutionary is extremely harmful and not something a communist party should ever do.
Legislating against men presenting “effeminately” in media on the grounds that it’s perverse and counter-revolutionary is extremely harmful and not something a communist party should ever do.
I 100% agree with this and if that is actually what is occurring here, then that is unacceptable. I’m just noticing the same patterns as previous “china bad” media campaigns which has made me go:
:fry:
Pretty sure unrealistic body standards are an issue that doesn't just affect feminine men. Are they applying the same standards to women? And how about men that are super jacked? Somehow I doubt that.
Yeah, go check out the threads. The twitter one in particular gives more details about the nuts and bolts. There’s likely space to critique.
I did and was unimpressed. If you can tell me that they're also going to go after female performers, then maybe I could believe that it's actually about the industry. Otherwise, it's blatantly homophobic and defending it is cringe.
Did you actually read the thread on gzd?
These unrealistic body standards are not associated with gay men in China, instead the unrealistic body standards for gay men are basically body builder style "low body fat large muscles" bodies, that's per a femboy currently living in China. They stated that these guys are almost all straight.
You're projecting your own association between a style and a sexual orientation onto another country.
I don't give half a shit.
LGBT rights include being able to present however you choose, especially with regards to gender identity. Banning a male style because it's "effeminate" is anti-LGBT regardless of whether or not the style is associated with same-sex attraction.
God, stop playing dumb, asshole. That style isn't effeminate and if it were banned it wouldn't be on the explicit grounds that it's effeminate. You know damn well that it's not comparable.
Yeah, but the whole point is that if in China, effeminacy isn't associated with LGBT men, then calling this homophobic on the grounds specifically that it's anti-effeminate is imposing your own cultural standards on China.
In my hypothetical we'd be banning promotion of a style associated with privileged rich straight guys, which is exactly what's happening in reality in China.
Even though you said "regardless of whether or not the style is associated with same-sex attraction" you're obviously implicitly treating it as self evident that effeminacy is associated with gay men and not straight men.
Here's an actual response, even though PPB is all this really deserves.
Having read your more drawn out explanation, you're absolutely right that this could be harmful to trans and NB people.
Sorry I didn't pick up on your meaning before, or think of this myself.
Thanks, sorry I got frustrated and didn't take more time to explain.
No you're fine, it's easy to get passionate over this kind of topic for obvious reasons.
You communicated this effectively and your point on gender expression varying across cultures is an important one.
A major point I’ve seen made is that the specific aesthetic they mentioned is associated with plastic surgery, specifically the 双眼皮 (“double eyelid”) surgery, which is done to make people look more “western” (eg white). It was unsurprisingly popularized in occupied South Korea.
As we know, adults are incapable of handling the latter 3 subjects and need a nanny state to protect their delicate sensibilities.
Sure. However, I think naughty words, fanservice and fake blood are the least of our problems
Ultimately harmless things that don't really hurt anyone.
Have your seen 4chan? Maybe constantly hitting the more dopamine button is bad actually.
Yeah… The last year has shown a certain amount of the population has to be forced to do the right thing.
I miss being able to enjoy a video game because of that insane profit motive companies get from pumping out the same game with minor tweaks, insane militaristic propaganda, micro transactions and pay to win mechanics.
Haven't people been hating Tencent for greedy practices anyways? Fucking gamers.
They hate it because they've convinced themselves that the greed of capitalism is actually due to communist corruption
So this is just going to make tencent more gommulist :gamer-gulag:
No, "people" have been hating Tencent for being Chinese
The OP is another offense of being Chinese so it is doubleplusbad, DO NOT PASS GO and DO NOT COLLECT BIG CHUNGUS 100WHOLESOME
shit. ok. uh... critical support?
I didn't notice that. edited the title. money worship bad. individually chosen gender expression good.
effeminacy
If I remember correctly, the “effeminacy” thing China has been gunning against isn’t about gender expression as much as “idol culture”. I’ll see if I can find the threads I was reading on that from a queer activist in China.
As is typical, the western media happily jumped on trying to use this as a propaganda angle. The thread I was reading had some criticism of other policies because China isn’t a utopia, but it was pretty clear on the intent there.
Edit: Found it. Thread on the topic from our comrades over at r/GenZedong.
I think that's a bit too charitable. Critical support means you have to actually acknowledge flaws as a part of recognition that a project is overall good but isn't perfect.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgx3nn/china-masculinity-sissy-stars
It's vice, so take it as you will, but remember that critical support requires occasional criticism. It's unreasonable to expect China to be culturally progressive on pace with the most culturally progressive of Western nations, remember that they haven't even legalized same sex marriage or adoption for same sex couples. BUT, they're on good pace, and for that they deserve critical support. But that doesn't mean we should ignore those faults.
Agree with you on the definition of critical support. There are plenty of areas to critique China on, including aspects of LGBTQ+ rights, which is why I made sure to reiterate that they’re not a utopia.
Part of critical support is also understanding the context one is critiquing, which is the intent of what I posted. Defaulting to “china wants to ban all fem bois” is reductive and also not accurate here imo.
That Vice article is unfortunately repeating many of the same talking points as other outlets, which I’m unsurprised by since Rupert Murdoch’s son is on Vice’s board.
Regardless, being willing to discuss the flaws of a socialist project is important.
effeminacy
If I remember correctly, the “effeminacy” thing China has been gunning against isn’t about gender expression as much as “idol culture”. I’ll see if I can find the threads I was reading on that from a queer activist in China.
As is typical, the western media happily jumped on trying to use this as a propaganda angle. The thread I was reading had some criticism of other policies because China isn’t a utopia, but it was pretty clear on the intent there.
Edit: Found it. Thread on the topic from our comrades over at r/GenZedong.
Plus it's a thing that the CIA has been partly fueling. They have to fight that.
IDK if it's true, but the CIA has done some fucking whack shit, this wouldn't even be top 10.
Yeah I mean they straight up propagandized Cubans into shipping their kids to the US
That is no different than them making modern art and rock music to distract us from shit.
they did suppress the other popular forms of music with things to say. It is entirely in character for them to be in bed with and pushing rock music though.
If it was actually what it’s being positioned as (a crackdown on queer culture), China wouldn’t have a right to fight it.
If history is any example (and it is), however, I’m sure the state department is fueling as many moonshot angles against China as possible.
Who should I contact about getting a CIA grant to pay for my makeup?
They mostly work with the big media types so technically most makeup youtubes are probably getting some juice from your tax money.
Leaked documents show Xi is planning to make the Room Series by Fireproof Games the only available games in China. When asked why, he said “it’s a vastly underrated game that not enough people talk about. Now it will be the only thing they can talk about!”
I knew I was dealing with forces beyond my ken when I solved that last puzzle and was transported to the corridors of eternal darkness at the end of times
:xinternet: trying to make his farm
Two minutes later :xi-reactionary-spotted:
They should also remove “obscene and violent content” and avoid “unhealthy tendencies, such as money-worship and effeminacy ”
:gun-hubris:
If I remember correctly, the “effeminacy” thing China has been gunning against isn’t about gender expression as much as “idol culture”. I’ll see if I can find the threads I was reading on that from a queer activist in China.
As is typical, the western media happily jumped on trying to use this as a propaganda angle. The thread I was reading had some criticism of other policies because China isn’t a utopia, but it was pretty clear on the intent there.
Edit: Found it. Thread on the topic from our comrades over at r/GenZedong.
Jesus, does Party Leadership have the world's longest-running short on Tencent? Was 50% loss in value in a year still not what they were shorting at?
who cares? corporations suck and money is dumb. nationalize it and stop worrying about stock price.
Yeah, but they aren't doing that because they think they still need a private investment market, which makes this so funny because 0700 is getting wrecked.
Meh, critical support. Let’s see how they follow up on these words
Damn new Hays Code just dropped /hj
I feel like this is being partially misrepresented but parts of it do sound a bit overbearing.
