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edit: GUYS fuck stalin and fuck tankies, period. i understand that this community is more sensitive than most to pro-stalinist vibes, and i apologize for unintentionally twinging that nerve, but you need stop calling each other (and me) slurs.
damn, the Jane Birch Society called it, it is a
meme
Hello passing BLAHAJ user. If any of you happen to be passing by you should also know that the death rate for the gulags over 70 years ago was also better than the current death rate in modern US prisons and this can be proven quite easily.
When ignoring the period of 1941-1944 (nazi occupation of the soviet union and ww2) where 70% of all deaths in gulags occurred, the program actually had an incredibly low death rate for its time. In fact, by 1953 the gulag system had a LOWER death rate than current modern day US prisons have. Fact.
According to this study the gulag deaths were approximately 830,000 from 1934 to 1953. As I said above however, it is important to know that 70% of all these deaths occurred between 1941 and 1944 (included) so they can be attributed to difficulties from the War Period and nazi occupation. Also, it's important to note that antibiotics didn't become available until after WW2, this contributes significantly to earlier higher death figures.
To put things into perspective. Using the same source as above for the USSR, and this report from the Bureau of Justice Statistics we can say that Mortality in the gulag in 1953 (236 deaths per 100,000 prisoners) was lower than mortality in US prisons today, both in state prisons (303 deaths per 100,000 prisoners) and federal prisons (252 deaths per 100,000 prisoners).
Feel free to double check these numbers(you should check anyone's numbers always). I know it's surprising to hear that as far back as 1953 they were better, but it is absolutely 100% correct.
This data also doesn't include the covid years, which would make this data considerably worse for the US.
The visceral emotional reaction you have to "tankies" is a product of propaganda, you should be having a far greater emotional reaction to anything to do with the US, particularly because it actually exists whereas the USSR does not.
Remember, you are not immune to propaganda.
When ignoring the period of 1941-1944 (nazi occupation of the soviet union and ww2) where 70% of all deaths in gulags occurred, the program actually had an incredibly low death rate for its time.
In fact, nazis murdered so many people in USSR, that gulag even in the war years was actually statistically safer place to be than outside gulag, especially outside in the occupied parts. For example nazis murdered something like 1/3rd of entire population of Belarussian SSR.
Blahaj users automatically pass? Fuck I'm going to have to recommend everyone to there now
I kicked all the leftists out of my community and now I can't understand why it's full of reactionaries! Oh well let's try kicking even more leftists out surely this time it will work
Should we try kicking the reactionaries out instead?
No, that sounds like something the evil Stalin would do!
It's authoritarian when you kick out reactionaries but it's democracy when you kick out leftists
nothing is funnier to me than a liberal who's gotten ahold of the word "Reactionary" and thinks it means "in reaction to a thing"
Reacting to modernity by rejecting it, embrace everything was better back in the day
Ah, close! I would add that it's not just the belief that things were better in the past; you have to also try to re-create the past, try to reenact it, to be reactionary.
If you're in politics maybe. Otherwise it seems you'd mostly yell at clouds and tell the young ones how they should lead their lives
Belief alone does not make you anything. It's your actions that decide what you are. If :yells-at-cloud: and chastising the youth is all someone does, maybe they'd have a tendency to reactionary politics -- if they start doing anything else.
They do vote conservative (which I must assume affiliates them), but that's only every few years, so it can hardly be described as something they do often. There's also blaming the immigrants and LGBT people and complaining about any and every environmental cause and acting smug that there's seemingly nothing to be done to avert climate disaster.
"Don’t get me wrong, despite being libertarian Marxist. I’m wildly against Lenin, Stalin, Mao, hell Engles for that matter etc."
"I'm a socialist but I oppose all the famous socialist leaders and theorists"
That's pretty normal for socialists tbh. I mean that describes Marx, it describes Lenin (Well, except Marx), it describes Bordiga (Again, except Marx)
Engles
They got "On Authority" quoted to them one time too much - and it's likely the only piece of theory they ever at least skimmed.
utopian and scientific too
leftism in the west is a backwards farce
"Hey guys, I'm heading out to the ideology shop to grab a couple of things.
Do you want me to get anything for you while I'm there?"
Uhhh yeah id like some materialism with a side of dialectics. But no Marx! If its Marx or his dialectical materialism, i send it back!
Me when I’m talking about Stalin on hexbear: “Stalin did a lot of good but I really think it’s important to balance that against the cadres like Bukharin who were unjustly killed in the purges or how industrialization could have been achieved in less brutal ways. And don’t get me started on how some of the economic decision making under Stalin lead to a lot of problems with economic planning later on down the line!”
Me when literally anyone else tries to shit on Stalin:
Edit: in that thread I noticed how those libs just use “Stalin” and “USSR” interchangeably. The propaganda works so damn well. The US was able to convince people that the extraordinary circumstances the USSR faced under Stalin and during and immediately after WW2 (when conditions in the gulags were admittedly horrific but so were the conditions for most Soviet citizens during the war, especially for the 20-25% of the population that lost their lives thanks to the fucking Nazis) was the norm from 1917 to 1991. Even the most ardently anti-Stalinist bourgeois historian would acknowledge Corn Man ended the gulag system and for decades the prison system was basically fine and certainly better than what we have in the US today. But most libs think the worst aspects of Stalinism remained all the way through Gorby, because they have brains as smooth as silk and no lib actually bothers to study history.
“Stalin did a lot of good but I really think it’s important to balance that against the cadres like Bukharin who were unjustly killed in the purges or how industrialization could have been achieved in less brutal ways. And don’t get me started on how some of the economic decision making under Stalin lead to a lot of problems with economic planning later on down the line!”
If you're bored, I'd like to hear more about this. I don't know much about specific USSR history and development outside of the usual talking points
At some point I’ll make an effort post about it, although I think instead of listing my criticisms I may just focus on the one that I think did the most long term damage to the project of socialism in the USSR (the purges).
In brief, while I could get into the morality of purging cadres - whether we’re talking expulsion from the party or all the way up to getting killed - who didn’t actually do anything to deserve it, in the end I’m not really interested in passing any sort of moral judgement of Stalin. I’m only concerned about how that affected how that affected the Soviet project.
And IMO, it was damaging long-term. The party lost so much leadership, power, and influence by losing so many members. That loss created a vacuum that was filled by the bureaucracy. And those bureaucrats (particularly bureaucrats involved in the economy and production) led using the tools they had at their disposal, which was (to greatly oversimplify) to just do whatever you had to do to hit a production target. Source your production inputs however you can, just make it work. And that actually works great for the crash industrialization that helped the Soviets win the war!
But the problem is, you can’t run the economy that way forever. Eventually, in a socialist economy, you need more rational planning. But the bureaucracy under Stalin was actually hostile to things like cybernetics. Khrushchev tried to get around the problems this was creating (bad ideas but he was trying and was limited by the fact he was in charge in a time just before computers and linear programming and stuff like that entered the scene) but by that point bureaucracy was actually stronger than the party. The bureaucracy that cut its teeth under Stalin and was empowered by him knew one way to do things, and they weren’t going to listen to what the party thought needed to be done. In a way the ascension of Brezhnev was the bureaucracy reasserting itself over any further reforms. Things weren’t going to change and it’s no surprise that when you hear about the Soviet economy in the 80s, there’s all sorts of industrial shortages and inefficiencies, and I think you can draw a line back to Stalin for a that.
In an alternate reality where the purges are much smaller, you could have a stronger party with more diverse and better ideas leading the charge. I imagine a not dead Bukharin would have successfully pushed for adoption of cybernetics early in the game to manage the economy, and the USSR would be around today.
I wanted to caveat all this with: this is all my opinion. I am still learning and am open to challenges on any of this.
Of course, I totally agree. My comment was very broad and intended to just tell one part of the narrative. There was a lot going on and I for one think even as late as 1985 or 1986, the Soviet economy could have been rescued.
The problem with USSR’s economy wasn’t cybernetics/computerization.
No amount of automation or computerization could save the Soviet economy from its critical defects. Khrushchev defaulted the state mandatory bonds set up under Stalin in 1957 has done more to stifle the progress of Soviet economy (I’m not even saying this was a primary driver, but merely one of the many that Khrushchev dismantled). The liquidation of artels (collectively owned enterprises) in 1960 destroyed the domestic light industry base, because Khrushchev wanted to use “state planning” to compete with Western consumerism, which was yet another crucial mistake (there is a reason why China moved away from central planning for its light industries, for the same reason).
I am a minority here but I’ve always said that the problem with the USSR was always financial in nature, more precisely, the continued adoption of liberal economics to solve problems within a socialist state/system.
Why is it that no country in the history of humanity has ever matched the economic growth under Stalin’s Five-Year Plans? Not even China came close to that, considering how much they lowered their labor wages/working conditions and took advantage of huge foreign capital investment to propel their economy. Stalin’s USSR didn’t have much of that (the post-war Soviet workers enjoyed much the same working rights as Western European workers). I claim that’s because Stalin understood the role of money and debt - Stalin understood finance better than any other world leader at the time (most were still stuck on gold standard). And yes I am digging up old Soviet materials wherever I can find to examine and prove this thesis. One day, I will prove it.
I've seen this theory reputably repeated by a lot of political economists but I still have yet to find a concise resource that can definitively prove evidence for the theory. If you ever do put something together definitely post it
I think you might be my favorite poster, lol. Always interesting reading your posts!
In brief, while I could get into the morality of purging cadres - whether we’re talking expulsion from the party or all the way up to getting killed - who didn’t actually do anything to deserve it, in the end I’m not really interested in passing any sort of moral judgement of Stalin. I’m only concerned about how that affected how that affected the Soviet project.
The purges were far less damaging than the genocidal war in which so many good Communists were martyred. The principled and fearless Communists rushed to the frontlines while the opportunists and cowards find compelling reasons to be stationed in Siberia. The war pretty such self-selected the most worthy to die and the least worthy to survive and drive the party off a cliff decades later. Fundamentally, post-Stalin CPSU started sucking because Stalin wasn't able to rebuild the party like Mao did after the Long March. And this wasn't the fault of Stalin since Stalin himself recognized this problem and started to rebuild the party. But at this point, he was far too old.
bukharin was literally proto-gorbachev, he deserved it
Also bukharin had some extreme views on LGBT people, even for the time. He was criticized by the party for saying gay people are the root of fascism, and would regularly conflate pederasty with being gay. In fact, he was censored by the party shortly after making this public statement
I hate the US as much as the next person but the meme itself is basically whataboutism.
How the fuck is this whataboutism?
The whataboutism is 75% of the thread going out to defend the US prison system by saying that a wartime prison before the age of antibiotics was slightly worse than current US prisons. So little discussion of the topic at hand.
Edit: oh fuck, found the millions of prisoners in Xinjang part of the thread.
the xinjiang thing was really near the top which is exactly what i would expect
I'll never understand people like this
"We left reddit because it isn't leftwing enough"
"Oh cool, so you're leftcom/communist/anarchist/etc?"
"What no, we're leftists, not you fuckin tankies"
"Um...so you denounce the imperialist hegemony imposed by the US and their allies?"
"I SAID I'M NOT A TANKIE YOU removed by mod STALIN KILLED 82 GORILLION AND USA BETTER THAN COMMIE SHITHOLES IN EVERY WAY"
Why not just stay on
? Would you not have felt special enough otherwise?It makes a lot more sense when you just replace "whataboutism" with "pointing out my hypocrisy"
Xi Xinping personally marched them all in at once with his comically large mancatcher
whataboutism is when you saying that a western nation has ever done anything bad.
christ, it's such a clunky word with such an intellectually lazy utility, i'm amazed they don't die of shame when they use it.
ive yet to see anything other than reactionary posting from hb
It's over folks, they got us.
reactionary is when you have a negative reaction to imperialism
who looked at cromalin and thought "ah yes a reactionary"
these people have only encountered hexbear in the dark recesses of their mind where the scary marxists keep beating them up and they cry
Most of them have literally never even checked hexbear as if just looking at the site will cause them to instantly die of shock or something. Before I got banned, every time I asked a user (and one time a mod) if they've even been to hexbear they'd say something along "no why would i want to visit that site."
Then they call hb an echo chamber.
If you visit hexbear a transgender communist death squad will show up to your house, dress you up cute, and play heavy metal until the only thing you're capable of doing anymore is meowing
If you visit blahaj, on the other hand, Charlotte Clymer shows up at your house
no
imagine fucking working at the HRC, i read old ass trans mags complaining about them, and they are still shit
hexbear is an echo chamber so we had to be defederated to prevent vulnerable blahaj zone minds from seeing communist viewpoints and getting propagandised into becoming tankies.
I guess Bullying Works so well that it can function as a psyop, blahaj.zone users living in the Red Scare
love that the fediverse has organically grown Red Scare witch hunts. None of that phony Fed GMO astroturf shit. Just drop some "leftist" redditors into the dirt and BAM a whole field of "say Stalin ate babies or else ur a tankie and I'll downvote you"
Weird how your anti communist community attracts bigoted people.
i apologize for unintentionally twinging that nerve, but you need stop calling each other (and me) slurs
lemmy.slurs.zone, top inclusive queer space.
you gotta stop calling everybody slurs
seriously why are you guys using so many slurs
mods what the hell why aren't you doing anything about all the slurs
hours later
wow thanks mods for taking care of that this is why we're better than them
The Soviet Union under Stalin is objectively better than the United States of America of today.
Actually let me explain to you how a sense of hopelessness sweeping through the populace and not being able to afford anything while the country funds non stop wars is a good thing
Actually since you blahaj zone idiots are simultaneously obsessed and terrified by our website and since youre 100% going to stalk this thread out of boredom because your shitty reddit clone is a ghost town on a good day, please go touch some grass, or, alternatively, actually self crit and try to get your tiny mind to understand why your anti communist community attracts bigots like moths to a swatsika shaped lamp. Alright im done taking a shit so ill log out, something you insufferably stupid libs should consider doing more often.
Someone should get the salvia guy on here, I dunno if he's ever dealt with a community that can keep pace
There's a bunch of guys who are literally throwing shit at my houseIt would be authoritarian to make them stop, so I opted to call the police on the people who offered to help insteadJesus Christ I wonder how these people even attempt to explain a coherent set of beliefs about the world
it's boring but my guess is default to generic "progressive" lib consensus as a baseline with a mixture of whatever
or robert fedvans and his crew are on about this week tacked on.eventually the brainworms will start to form competing colonies and swiss cheese their brains in their inter-colonial wars
my honest, only guess is that they just don't think about it very hard. Can't have two contradictory held thoughts if you just don't have thoughts
