Links and Stuff
Examples of racism/euro-centrism during the Russia-Ukraine conflict
Add to the above list if you can, thank you.
Resources For Understanding The War Beyond The Bulletins
Defense Politics Asia's youtube channel and their map, who is an independent youtuber with a mostly neutral viewpoint.
Moon of Alabama, which tends to have good analysis (though also a couple bad takes here and there)
Understanding War and the Saker: neo-conservative sources but their reporting of the war (so far) seems to line up with reality better than most liberal sources.
Alexander Mercouris, who does daily videos on the conflict and, unlike most western analysts, has some degree of understanding on how war works. He is a reactionary, however.
On the ground: Patrick Lancaster, an independent journalist reporting in the Ukrainian warzones.
Unedited videos of Russian/Ukrainian press conferences and speeches.
Yesterday's discussion post.
Twitter socdems go to fucking hell and never return.
Piece of shit scum going on about how "Polls" show that Swedish and Finnish people overwhelmingly support NATO, fucking let us vote on it then you freaks.
"Oooh its imperialist for the DSA to boost statements by Swedish leftists about how NATO is attacking our neutrality, polls polls polls", fuck off.
imperialism is definitely becoming another generalized word for "when country/organization does bad thing"
the vote might be to join nato under the circumstances, as an easy way to functionally get a nuke, but at least it would be a vote
Yeah, I mean from a purely pragmatic point of view having it forced onto us makes for an easy argument if the tide turns on public opinion of NATO, but that doesnt change how fucked up it is to take an action like this in a nakedly undemocratic manner.
Even just delaying it until the autumns general election would be fucking something, thats at least a newly elected government doing it instead of one thats on its last legs.
It would be... if America literally ever bothered standing by their lapdogs. :che-smile:
And by "like" is meant that the U.S. functionally just has more territory to use to do what it likes with its own nukes, and the host country can buzz off or get couped if it has a problem with it.
Meanwhile, they get to piss Russia off and get on its radar as a somewhat more likely threat.
It's pretty crazy seeing countries learn exactly the wrong and opposite lesson from what's happening with Ukraine....
i'm not aware of nato membership obligating members to allow the US to install missile silos.
i agree that anyone joining nato aggravates russia but I also don't think russia is willing to trigger article 5 and that is the nuclear deterrent equivalent I think people who don't want to get invaded by russia will be attracted to.
It doesn't oblige them in a technical, legal sense, no. In practice, on the other hand, it's...ah, "difficult" to say no. Some "guest" troops in your bases here; some defense aid/contracts there; a military base or two sprinkled around; suddenly if you sneeze wrong there's a lot of shit the U.S. could "theoretically" bring to bear against you in critical ways if you ever thought about maybe getting uppity.
I don't think Russia wants to "trigger Article 5", but I think Russia is going to bring a realist analysis of the situation to the table when it gets threatened enough. Say it is completely surrounded and has first-strike weapons pointed at it from all sides. You think it's not then going to look around and pick the most vulnerable target that the U.S. likely gives the least shit about and start there? Certainly it's a better opportunity to try to prevent NATO membership in the first place, but just as lack of official, on-paper NATO membership didn't prevent the U.S. from flooding Ukraine with weapons, training, military exercises, etc., I think it's naïve to think that the official, on-paper membership is going to encourage the U.S. to defend a puppet state more than it would without.
NATO membership really isn't about who the U.S. will act outside its normal interests for; it's about subjugation TO the U.S.
you think it’s not then going to look around and pick the most vulnerable target that the U.S. likely gives the least shit about and start there?
i think that any non-nato state is a safer target than any nato state. i agree your analysis starts to play if literally everyone else is nato but we're not there yet and I think that matters way more for whoever is about to go last and, e.g. russia would sooner commit hard to taking all of ukraine than go after a nato finland.
a better argument against courting membership would be that natos own bylaws prevent admitting states with border disputes so if you look like you're gonna try to join then it's more incentive for russia to start shit with you, but that also mean now is the "safest" time to apply if you're on the fence.
NATO membership really isn’t about who the U.S. will act outside its normal interests for; it’s about subjugation TO the U.S.
you might be right but i don't think the liberals in charge think about it that way or if they do they think joining will reliably prevent hot invasion and prefer the quiet subjugation as it doesn't disrupt capital.
https://nitter.net/AliceAvizandum/status/1525606068331630598#m
Is the thread relevant to this conversation.
WTYP really putting on that clown makeup with their buddy Azov Something.
They're stereotypical Western libs that think they're socialist. Everything is built on sarcastic hypercriticism except when it comes to vaguely SocDem things.
Someone get Liam's trot dad a microphone, I'm sure he can do better.
Russia: "If you pay for gas according to our scheme then you will receive it. If you do not, then you won't."
EU: "But that's blackmail! You're weaponizing energy exports! That's not fair! International rules-based order! Terrorist state! Guess what, we're gonna fill up on gas for a year and then give it up, and get it from other countries! Even if they don't have the energy infrastructure yet, we'll just patiently wait until they do and then we'll--"
Russia: "You did not pay for gas, so you will not receive it."
EU: "NOOO! You can't do that! We had these year-long plans! Evil orcs!"
It's almost like these people haven't had to pay rent before in their life.
We literally confiscated their foreign reserves. We're the ones who decided that economic assets are a weapon to be used against geopolitical rivals.
Supposedly the Swedish socdems not only categorically refused a call for a general referendum on NATO, but no vote internally was held either on the matter.
Functioning democracy in action, not even your own party members can be trusted to have agency on decisions like this.
I love you.
But also hexbear has completely ruined my ability to have a conversation about ukraine with any of my RL friends. Fortunately, it doesn't get brought up much, libs are bored of it. My more anarchist friends are a bit gleeful about the imminent collapse of the "second bloc" (Russia/China), so there's that.
I'm not the biggest China fan but I want them to succeed just to see the US eat shit
Westerners are usually chauvinistic morons, and becoming "anarchists" (heavy emphasis on the quotes) often doesn't do anything to undo that.
I generally just don't engage anymore. To even start to explain my position I'd have to go back over seventy years and give a crash course on the role of Ukrainian nationalists in the Holocaust and work forward and it's just too much.
And then you say "Why did UK block The UN investigation into Bucha?"
I'm just at a point where I ask if they know what a donbas is and if they say no I change the subject to pokemon.
I sort of hate that I know more about Donbas than I do pokemon
My more anarchist friends are a bit gleeful about the imminent collapse of the “second bloc” (Russia/China), so there’s that.
Do these anarchists live in the U.S. (or some other NATO country, I suppose)? If so, you might just remind them where they have the potential influence to change things.
As an anarchist myself, I couldn't give a shit about Russia and China, and it'd be great if they "collapsed". However:
- The U.S.'s proxy (and sanction) war ain't the way to make it happen.
- It's unlikely to succeed, and it would just be a fucking expansion of empire if it did anyway. Like, WTF do they think the actual outcome is going to be if that collapse doesn't take place due to a liberation movement? It's like wanting Walmart to be "destroyed"...due to a takeover by Amazon. Yeehaw!
- I'm more interested in "my own" country and its empire collapsing, and it's where I have the ability to actually strike.
If those anarchists actually live and act in Russia and/or China, that's another matter. But it doesn't sound like it.
Australia. The one that I'm close to who is most gleeful about it doesn't watch the news and usually just exhausted after work to really talk about anything. Ah well
Oof. Gotcha. Well, at the risk of sounding like I'm making excuses for them—which is not really my intent—I suppose it's difficult to put much effort into research and analysis when your own local circumstances are exhausting and difficult. One thing I can say is that anarchists tend to respond well in a mutual aid scenario. Perhaps offer to share meals and talk about workplace organizing (a little emotional labor) and the like. Just a thought.
They mean well, they're just uh... Sometimes still infested with lib brainworms. Real "no two countries with a McDonalds have gone to war" hours. When we have time.
The war euphoria here is real though. Holy shit :(
It’s so poetic that the west is experiencing indirect Nazi blowback from Azov on the same week they are passing $40 billion to arm them.
All those guns they are sending to Ukraine? They are coming back west when Ukraine implodes. They will have words scrawled on them too. I hope the west stops this madness.
Except it's always going to be marginalized people paying for it, instead of the neoliberals that send the weapons.
Poetic is neither good nor bad. Ironic and cruel things are often poetic.
Sounds like a quote from The Book of The Divine Absurd.
Biggest terrorist exporter in the world, using this double edge sword to brought down nation, but I fear this time the blow back going to be very damaging compare to the past.
Source? That is the kind of "I know this and it is decaying my sanity" thing.
Fascists have international solidarity. They're all part of the same movement. Meanwhile the left is divided.
Russia Cuts Gas Supply To Seized German Gazprom Unit OilPrice
Germany, which has long remained the largest buyer of Russian natural gas, has belatedly and bluntly stated as fact what’s long been among its greatest ‘worst case scenario’ fears, that Moscow is using its energy exports as a “weapon”.
This is about as sensible a reaction as stealing someone's wallet and then getting mad at them for blocking their credit cards.
Did they seriously expect Russia to just take this lying down and continue deliveries as if nothing had happened? It's the German elite completely insane?
Sanctions? Not an economic weapon.
Basic trade? Economic weapon.
They're not going to say "oh we fucked up." They're always going to spin these things in some self-serving way.
I wish I could talk to people about this stuff without sounding like a deranged Russophile. I'd much rather people think of me as a deranged middle-eastophile.
people seemed shocked by Macron dropping the redditor act of Ukraine simpage, but he was one of the major voices in brokering the Minsk agreements. I don't like the fucker obviously, but this is hardly some weird uturn, he's been invested in the Ukraine situation for years
French fries canceled. Again. When will they every learn. SMH.
Time to get a other cuppa :biden-nibble: Joe:biden: then :grillman:
Good news everyone! It's official: Finland to apply for Nato membership! :agony-soviet:
I'm confused by the order of operations, who can make the decision to join NATO? Is it the Finnish president or is it parliament? It seems like the president has already decided but wants the support of parliament before they submit it for real. Of course no referendum needed because reasons..
NATO is "just" a treaty and in most countries the ability to enter into treaties rests with the executive, with parliament playing mostly an oversight role and the people playing the role of meddlesome outsiders who shouldn't poke their nose in things.
Capitalist democracy is not meant to enable the people to rule, it's meant to enable the rulers to pacify the people.
It would be incredibly funny if Sweden and Finland decides to show dedication to the lofty principles of liberal democracy and bravery in the face of Putler's authoritarian horde of Asiatic orcs, only for Turkey to tell them to fuck off.
Nobody was ever in doubt that these collaborators would side with the Nazis again when the chips were on the table
to be fair, the country that has the most state-sanctioned pro-nazi marches, latvia, has already been in NATO for a while
Ukraine understood it had to become more like Latvia to get into NATO :think-about-it:
The Continuation War country is joining the Nazi Arming and Training Organization? :surprised-pika:
I got a good chuckle out of the Azovstal
troglodytesdefenders begging China to help them get out. EDIT: And Begging Elon to save them? These guys are better comedians than Zelenskyy.They buy their own propaganda so they believe the Russians are to going to do some war crimes on them despite being POWs.
The reality is that Russia is treating the POWs well, there are tons of videos of Ukrainian troops receiving food and medical treatment.
There has been this take on Russian Telegram that I think sounds probable: For years and years the Azov Nazis has been able to do whatever the hell they wanted to. There has been no crime heinous enough to get them in any kind of trouble. Neither the law, the government, the police or the courts has been able to do anything to stop them, in many cases these institutions has actively helped them and shielded them from facing responsibility. They simply can't fathom that the game is over for them, that there will be nobody bailing them out this time, that they are going to face responsibility no matter what, be it through Russian courts, Russian steel or through a miserable death from hunger, thirst and disease.
Imaging (U.S.) cops in the same situation...yeah, IMO it's plausible.
Waiting for Elon Musk to call NATO pedophiles because they sent helicopters or something.
He throws that accusation around so often he has to be right eventually
I mean when you are talking about westerners in Thailand your success goes up dramatically.
As long as Ukraine remains observed by NATO it remains in a superposition of losing and winning simultaneously For the purposes of foreign policy. The quantum waveform cannot be allowed to collapse.
The West is a perpetual motion machine running off pure contradiction, except behind the curtain and away from neoliberal eyes, there's actually a guy shoveling human skulls into the engine
At the same time, 59% of Chinese have a worse attitude towards the United States.
Chinese hating the US more and more with each passing day. You love to see it.
This also means that the US can't really hope that Xi's replacement is going to magically fix this giant political and cultural barrier either. All around good news.
There were a real honeymoon under Bush and Hu ‘s era in terms of china-us relationship but i think most of chinese understand that usa would never see us as equals
I can't realy imagine what the last 20 years would be like for native Chinese. Between all the US wars and 2008 crisis meanwhile China kept consistently growing for 2 decades.
I can understand still having lib brain worms back then and "respecting" the US but Chinese T1 cities are more modern than first world equivalents. China is now a modern country while the US is just North Mexico but lucky to have their own money printer.
t1 s and 2s are ironically the most brainwormed, because they have had the most exposure to western cultural output. their material gains have been outpaced by ideological tendencies, while less developed places are more capable of taking material advances at face value.
also no one can afford to live in t1 cities and there is a massive housing, healthcare and higher education bubble across the country that holds local governments complicit and so people are rightfully skeptical about their futures. in their ignorance, they look to the west as a grass is greener type of place.
Tbf there are definitely a T1 city vs less developed place ideological divide, my cousin who lives in a T1 still has a very american/consumerism brainset
A lot can be blamed on, and the Chinese government is not really doing a good job selling themselves to their citizens
Thank god that the american are doing the job for the Chinese govt right now with their maniac and aggresive attack.
I think my criticism is more the states doesn’t allow enough flexibility in terms for what kind of media it allows (understandably) therefore people tends to take what the gov say with a grain of salt
But yes the USA acting like a hasbeen does help china’s image sometime
there's a decent amount of nostalgic good-will for the soviet union under stalin in china, you can see it most obviously in nationalist circles like earlier episodes of year hare affair.
khrushchev ruined everything though. the narrative is that he was basically trying to IMF the chinese by refusing to complete technology transfers started under stalin (and by installing permanent soviet technological 'advisor' positions in china) so as to lock them out of higher value production processes and turn china into a giant banana republic for the soviet union. maintaining what was already transferred during/after the sino-soviet split was a big factor in the whole 'gommunist chyna 100 million dead' under mao, as the economy was still largely agrarian and so a disproportionate amount of production (read: grain) had to be appropriated and turned into capital (sold) to support the more capital intensive higher value processes.
this is where the socialist imperialist accusations come from, corn boy was kinda an asshole.
on a side note, the positions have sort of reversed as of the present and i really hope the current chinese leaders learn from history and don't try anything quite so fucking cringe as what corn boy pulled.
he tried to grow a lot of corn at great cost because... reasons, and failed spectacularly
There’s a lot more to Russian culture than homophobia, this is verging on shitlibbery
The shitlibbery is reducing an an entire complex nation and people with a robust history and culture as “just homophobes” as if that’s their only cultural export. This is the same shit libs do with Afghanistan, Syria, Iran to justify invading “evil theocracies”
Wonder why Chinese might be wary of Westerners pushing LGBT on them when you are openly demonizing an anti-imperialist bloc forming because it’s “homophobic”.
Like if you don’t want LGBT rights to be associated with imperialism, stop combining these arguments together yourself
Nope I never said gays were a western conspiracy. I said that chauvinists like you use western progressive stances on social issues to justify imperialism and to smear anti-imperialist states
I’m more than happy to separate LGBT issues and imperialism as separate unconnected topics of discussion. It’s you who commented in an effort to fuse them together. I never “ceded the ground”, you did.
As a Syrian refugee of woke imperialist war with dead cousins… I was told to be nice today.
The demonizing comes from the immediate jump to accusations of bigotry. flattening of complex cultures and context. Just because the word Russia was mentioned.
I get hot and bothered by casual chauvinism and western arrogance. Using what they took from us to bludgeon us. Our societies were more socially progressive until they were destroyed by the west. All progressive and secular movements in the Middle East crushed by western funded fascists. The gains of the USSR lost. Now liberals mock us and claim moral superiority because you beat us back 100 years in development
You could get some perspective about the primary contradiction and your place in empire
Code of conduct says the following:
Respect that people have differences of opinion and that every leftist has a place in our community. Discussing differences in theory is fine and encouraged, just don't make it personal.
Remember: Sectarianism is liberalism.(not relevant to this conversation)We will ban you if you insult, demean or harass anyone. That is not welcome behavior. This is distinctly different than ribbing or grilling someone.
We are a platform that welcomes anyone who wants to be here in good faith.
If you got a bone to pick with someone, try to do it constructively and civilly.
I’ll stop being annoying if they stop being chauvinists. Deal?
Code of conduct says no, but it does say the following:
Respect that people have differences of opinion and that every leftist has a place in our community. Discussing differences in theory is fine and encouraged, just don't make it personal.
Remember: Sectarianism is liberalism.(not relevant to this conversation)We will ban you if you insult, demean or harass anyone. That is not welcome behavior. This is distinctly different than ribbing or grilling someone.
Likewise any spamming, trolling, flaming, baiting or other attention-stealing behavior is not welcome and will be banned.
We are a platform that welcomes anyone who wants to be here in good faith.
If you got a bone to pick with someone, try to do it constructively and civilly. This website isn't a political party where's Mao's "Combat Liberalism" is to be applied, it's a forum for socialists to shoot shit and talk.
Well we shall agree to disagree then, I feel that imperialism narratives and western chauvinism are worse than being rude and bullying. You feel the inverse. One day it’s going to come to a head and you will ban me for being mean.
I normally like your stuff dude, just stop being a dick. If you can at least agree to take that under advisement we'll call this event settled.
sounds good bro, keep fighting the good fight against dum dum westies :kim-peace:
Also try to limit the commenting multiple replies, I suggest tacking on whatever you wanted to say with an edit of the initial comment. That's just to keep a more coherent and linear flow of conversation going instead of arguing along 5 different threads with the same person over 20 different topics.
you warn me against double replies, yet you do so within a double reply. Curious. :very-intelligent:
All I know is you hear ‘China and Russia developing friendly cultural alliance’ and you immediately think “this is the homophobia of the evil East”.
Read the whole comment. They see Russia as a warrior nation willing to fight against NATO, they see it as having beautiful people and culture, desirable tourist destinations and good higher education. Nothing about admiring their homophobia.
Oh so your “China and Russia are reactionary homophobes” smear didn’t work so you are pivoting to something else. Stay on topic russophobe
If you hear the good news that 2 anti-imperialist nations are becoming more friendly and immediately start fretting about how it’s only because they are reactionary (without and against all evidence), that is a deep seated chauvinistic belief that needs to be rooted out
Sorry I wasn’t polite enough when dealing with imperialist Russophobia that sounds like it’s coming out of the mouth of Hilary Clinton
I’m being appropriately sensitive to disguised liberal imperialist narratives being parroted by “leftists” in the west, famous for being chauvinists
Debatebro is when someone recognizes an imperialist narrative and points it out. The more they do this, the more of a debatebro they are.
Maybe next time they won’t jump immediately to anti-Chinese and anti-Russian condescending chauvinist statements if they remember getting chewed out for it.
This is effectively just tone policing, tone policing on behalf of liberal imperialism. Smh
What’s important here is that you only respond to tone like a dog, and that you think anyone pointing out imperialism rudely is an idiot
I’m not omniscient and omnipresent, I can only call out the horseshit I see. I didn’t see that thread.
I hold my point that if the first thing your mind jumps to when you hear the words “Russian Culture” is homophobia, and you have so little faith in the Chinese populace’s revolutionary potential, that you fret over whether the evil Russians are corrupting them, that idea stems from very chauvinist roots.
I just find it quite interesting that you all are much more concerned over my rudeness than over a so-called “cringe take” exhibiting imperialist and chauvinist tendencies. Where are your priorities?
It’s definitely not a good take to have
I’m glad you agree, the first I’m hearing of it instead of insipid tone policing on their behalf. Why didn’t you just say that earlier?
you are overreacting
Love to have condescending westerners always poo poo me and tell me I’m overreacting whenever I point out their shitty chauvinist underlying their logic. You are saying this to a displaced Syrian. Would you tell a black victim of racially insensitive comments that they are overreacting, and even if they are right they shouldn’t be so rude about it? I have all the right in the world to shit on western chauvinism, it destroyed my home nation and my family.
But interestingly you only were replying to me and attacking me, not them. Here’s a deal, I’ll self crit if you all do too
I have no patience for people who immediately pivot to smearing non-western culture as barbaric to attack the developing friendly alliance of two anti-imperialist states.
This is simple minded bigotry against Russians and Chinese, treating them as stupid children who are reactionaries and need to be taught by the enlightened west. It happens in left-ish places constantly as a way to derail anti-imperialist support.
Any nation that is the victim of economic colonization and looting will be less developed and will likely be more socially reactionary - as social ideas emerge from economic realities. The west loots and plunders these nations, makes their populations ignorant and destitute and then uses that ignorance as casus belli to further attack and subjugate them as “barbarians”.
It’s the same shit they have done to the Middle East for decades, no good communist or anti-imperialist should fall for it. They only do because of baked in Russophobia and a higher prioritization on social issues than on the primary contradiction of war and imperialism. The Western capitalists have spread far more homophobia and killed far more LGBT individuals than Russia ever has. Anyone upvoting this chauvinist should feel deep shame
It’s worth noting as well that the USSR was vastly more socially progressive than the west. It was not until the USSR was destroyed and looted, and the people of Russia returned to destitution and ignorance by the west, that homophobic reaction reared its head.
Same goes for Iran. It was much more socially progressive until the west destroyed it.
Now the west claims moral superiority over both and uses its social progressive stances as bludgeons to beat the nations it previously destroyed and made like this.
To ignore this context and immediately jump to “huh I guess the Chinese only like Russian culture because they are both reactionary bigots” without any evidence of that, is an extension of the arrogance of the west
I have no patience
Much like toddlers, small dogs, and annoying debate club nerds.
Probably cultural exchanges under the honeymoon phase. It is not infrequent for my grand parents and parents to know about russian literature and sing soviet songs
Also there are also a certain respect for the Russian for taking initiative (we sometime call the russian our big brother, ironic or unironic) and China is learning from its mistakes to build our own society
It's there in the pdf that he upload. Brave, warrior, strong military nation with Soviet nostalgia.
No no it’s their stupid homophobia, those barbarian easterners only agree on that.
71% of Chinese consider Russia the most attractive country in the world in terms of culture
:mao-wtf: :sicko-wistful: :ussr-cry: :cringe:
I'm pretty sure that's partly because of Stalin-era cultural exchanges.
Utilities are now on the hook for billions of pounds of unpaid bills after the prices of gas and electricity soared as households already struggling with the cost of living go into debt.
It’s too early to put an overall figure on what customers owe, but the picture is bleak based on recent estimates. Companies such as Iberdrola SA’s Scottish Power are warning the market is no longer sustainable.
Tory gov will nationalise if the conditions force them into it. The majority of the country is pro-nationalisation of the energy companies anyway and exiting the EU means there are absolutely no legal barriers to the UK doing so.
This is a legitimate possibility and one that might be worth hammering as the situation worsens.
Ironically Starmer said in the leadership contest that he was pro-nationalisation and then more recently said he is against nationalisation because he's a lying shit. So if the Tories nationalised any energy companies it would be a more significantly left policy than Starmer.
the tories have outflanked Starmer from the left many times. it's so pathetic
I know it's not strictly relevant, but the man went to a photo op and crashed a vehicle because he refused to turn left as everyone was screaming at him to do it. And it really just encapsulates everything about him.
Isn't it Trash Future that has this bit about how the Tories will end up begrudgingly introducing war communism in Britain because unlike Labour, who are ideologically wedded to neoliberalism, their main concern is staying in power.
They seem to be doing a good job. If the western elites hadn’t gone all in on their Ukraine pet project they probably could have kept the global capital machine humming for another couple decades. Instead they are crashing into a wall for some reason
History may repeat itself
Had the Confederacy not formed for the purpose of preserving slavery despite the fact that Lincoln hadn't committed to abolition, then the Civil War would have been delayed and they would have kept their slaves for a least another decade or two
Our enemies remain almost as stupid and greedy as they are evil
