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Examples of racism/euro-centrism during the Russia-Ukraine conflict

Add to the above list if you can, thank you.


Resources For Understanding The War Beyond The Bulletins


Defense Politics Asia's youtube channel and their map, who is an independent youtuber with a mostly neutral viewpoint.

Moon of Alabama, which tends to have good analysis (though also a couple bad takes here and there)

Understanding War and the Saker: neo-conservative sources but their reporting of the war (so far) seems to line up with reality better than most liberal sources.

Alexander Mercouris, who does daily videos on the conflict and, unlike most western analysts, has some degree of understanding on how war works. He is a reactionary, however.

On the ground: Patrick Lancaster, an independent journalist reporting in the Ukrainian warzones.

Unedited videos of Russian/Ukrainian press conferences and speeches.


Telegram Channels

Again, CW for anti-LGBT and racist, sexist, etc speech, as well as combat footage.

Pro-Russian

https://t.me/aleksandr_skif ~ DPR's former Defense Minister and Colonel in the DPR's forces. Russian language.

https://t.me/Slavyangrad ~ Gleb Bazov, banned from Twitter, referenced pretty heavily in what remains of pro-Russian Twitter.

https://t.me/asbmil ~ ASB Military News, banned from Twitter.

https://t.me/s/levigodman ~ Does daily update posts.

https://t.me/patricklancasternewstoday Patrick Lancaster - crowd-funded U.S journalist, mostly pro-Russian, works on the ground near warzones to report news and talk to locals.

https://t.me/riafan_everywhere ~ Think it's a government news org or Federal News Agency? Russian language.

https://t.me/gonzowarr ~ Front news coverage. Russian langauge.

https://t.me/rybar ~ Russian language.

https://t.me/epoddubny ~ Russian language.

https://t.me/boris_rozhin ~ Russian language.

https://t.me/mod_russia_en ~ Russian Ministry of Defense.

https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses ~ Pro-Russian, documents abuses that Ukraine commits.

Pro-Ukraine

With the entire western media sphere being overwhelming pro-Ukraine already, you shouldn't really need more, but:

https://discord.gg/projectowl ~ Pro-Ukrainian OSINT Discord.

https://t.me/ice_inii ~ Alleged Ukrainian account with a rather cynical take on the entire thing.


Yesterday's discussion post.


    • Z_Poster365 [none/use name]
      ·
      3 years ago

      Took me a bit to see it.

      Also funny the caption of photo 2 says “Russian Tochka-U”. Correct me if I’m wrong, Russia has not fired a single Tochka-U this entire invasion

      • comi [he/him]
        ·
        3 years ago

        Just a random guy :shrug-outta-hecks:

        Idk, on one hand they don’t have them, on the other - they could have easily captured them in 8 years and they’ve decommissioned them only 10 years ago. On a hunch I would say likely ukrainian due to general incompetence, maybe 70-30 chance

        • SoyViking [he/him]
          ·
          3 years ago

          If that is a Tochka-U it is almost certainly Ukrainian. Had it been used by Russia, it would be the only Tochka-U fired by Russia in this war. Instead of the Soviet-era Tochka-U Russia used the more modern Iskander and Kalibr missiles.

    • Eldungeon [none/use name]
      ·
      3 years ago

      When the Russians invaded I remember, even left media people were down playing the fascist elements in Ukraine's army and civil society, saying the extent of their influence was negligible and not really a n issue definitely not a reason to NOT support Ukraine, but it sure looks like they're in control of the military and government to me..

      • comi [he/him]
        ·
        3 years ago

        I would not say they aren’t there, I’m just thinking it’s all imperialism in the end, with some thick pretexts in places. It’s all kinda like iraq invasion (or yugoslavia if they partition them). Not like saddam was particularly good dude. Leftists I feel should be opposed to it for the same reason. Liberals supporting ukraine though are completely full of shit.

            • comi [he/him]
              ·
              3 years ago

              Class war looks like civil war tho.

              • Z_Poster365 [none/use name]
                ·
                3 years ago

                Not necessarily. WW2 was partially a class war. The eastern front was literally the fighting force of the bourgeoise vs. the worlds biggest proletarian base of power. That didn’t look like a civil war.

                US invading Cuba in the bay of pigs was class war, that didn’t look like a civil war.

                • comi [he/him]
                  ·
                  3 years ago

                  At first it was defensive war, with following class war characteristics when they’ve purged aristocracy/bourgeoisie (which was later, just they’ve had such superior military control at the time, class war didn’t happen).

                  Eh, bay of pigs is just imperialistic war. Or in that sense you can reclassify napoleonic wars as class wars of bourgeoisie versus aristocracy.

          • comi [he/him]
            ·
            edit-2
            3 years ago

            Kinda sorta, but not really. Russia has both economic levers, has/had significant population buy in in ukraine. They could have put thousands names on the darknet for being nazis, and let enterprising individuals take it. They could have stopped gas flow to europe, and told germany to figure it out with minsk - it would take 2 months for ukraine to yield to capital masters from the west.

            I’m not even going into more based directions of financing unions/antifa - it’s not like nazi problem arose organically, they were financed by oligarchs. However, that avenue is not possible for capitalist state.

        • Fartster [comrade/them]
          ·
          3 years ago

          Its not really comparable to Iraq invasion in any way except the fact that it is an invasion. The context and conditions are vastly different. You know this.

          • comi [he/him]
            ·
            3 years ago

            they have wmd (security threat)

            they’ll join nato (security threat)

            Huh?

        • Cowboyitis69 [he/him]
          ·
          3 years ago

          If Russia never grabbed Crimea and Donbas territories in 2014, Ukraine likely wouldn’t have provoked Russia, and this war likely would’ve never happened. Just because those regions were ethnic Russian doesn’t mean Russia had to grab them. They did it because they could, and it unleashed a whirlwind of shit. But some people here don’t want to admit that.

    • anadyr [he/him]
      ·
      3 years ago

      This shit is on purpose by now, MSM must be filled with Nazis

      • Fartster [comrade/them]
        ·
        3 years ago

        Or journalists who have seen enough to understand what's up and want to slip some of this through to try and shake things up.

      • SoyViking [he/him]
        ·
        3 years ago

        I see nothing weird here, just a normal Ukrainian guy who loves freedom, democracy and... uh... ancient Slavic sun symbols.

        • comi [he/him]
          ·
          3 years ago

          Lol, speaking of sun symbols, during one of russians feely good pieces - kids sending stuff to soldiers to support them, there was a photo with kolovrat symbol on some baggie from kids.

    • Frank [he/him, he/him]
      ·
      3 years ago

      How many Nazis are there that guys with big, obvious Nazi tattoos keep ending up in front of cameras?

    • SeventyTwoTrillion [he/him]
      hexagon
      ·
      edit-2
      3 years ago

      I hate to do the reddit thing of just saying "this" but that's basically all I can say, other than an elaboration.

      At the beginning of the conflict, I think we all, correctly, suggested that this was an inter-imperialist war in which the working class of Ukraine and Russia are being pitted against each other and that while Ukraine was a bad country and something needed to happen at some point before the Nazi paramilitaries overthrew the government and created a geopolitical tumour in Eastern Europe that could spread to the rest of the body, maybe this wasn't it. That was a reasonable interpretation of what the war was at that time. And there was lots of taking shots at Putin for extremely valid reasons. Like, in this very update, there's an article on how the Russian government continues to attack the LGBT in Russia. It's almost tiring to say that Putin is not a good person personally for a hundred different reasons.

      However, as time has gone by since then, it's become increasingly clear to me, and @granit, and hopefully everybody else, that this is a genuine fracture in the US global hegemony. It's not a culture war thing; it's not countries saying that they dislike the US or NATO (e.g. Macron saying NATO was approaching brain death) but then proceeding to not do anything with their dislike; it's not somebody in some random parliament making a statement about how the United States has done harm to the world; it's not the election of somebody vaguely left-wing in a relatively powerless country before they then negotiate with themselves to become a neoliberal. This is a rupture in the global capitalist order and a re-orientation of globalism and power relations. This actually matters. This cannot be shoved in a corner like coronavirus was. And Russia was the one to initiate that rupture, at potentially great risk to themselves, for reasons that aren't necessarily caused by a principled anti-imperialism, but nonetheless amount to that.

      We need to end the stranglehold of the United States on the rest of the world. We need to lift the boots off the neck of the working class before they can even think about rising up and dusting themselves off and taking control of the world and creating socialism and then communism. And, to adapt that famous saying, we're doing that with the countries and governments we have, not the countries we want. It would have been awesome if Cuba and Venezuela and so on had created some kind of AES alliance; it would have been amazing if China had finally decided to stand up and engage in the world beyond peaceful development and sanctioned the fuck out of the United States or something. But Russia was the country that took the plunge, when it was backed into a corner with no way out but through, and that's the reality we live in.

      • Z_Poster365 [none/use name]
        ·
        edit-2
        3 years ago

        It was Russia who took the plunge

        Just like it was in 1917 and in WW2. Russia, whether they chose this fate or not, are world historical guardians against European fascism and colonialism. Not for any principled reason but due to the peculiarities of their geography, resources & conditions. There is a phrase in Russian which roughly translates to “Demons from the West”. Russia has been the gatekeepers between the Eastern World and the Western World, forced to play mediator and to settle disputes with force when the West invades and encroaches every couple decades.

        After the USSR collapsed and Russia was totally humiliated and defeated, the triumphant West viciously and mercilessly looted the Russians and kicked them while they were down. The Russians tried to bend the knee and join the west as a vassal and were refused.

        This is the inevitable outcome of the Russophobia and chauvinism of the west

        • Frank [he/him, he/him]
          ·
          3 years ago

          It is wild that Russia tried for years to join, and then placate, the west and was snubbed and denied every time.

          • Z_Poster365 [none/use name]
            ·
            3 years ago

            Which doesn’t even really make sense. The west should have accepted them into NATO and made them another vassal/puppet like South Korea or Japan. Instead they were too hellbent on revenge and huffing too much Cold War ideology, and just wanted to punish Russia instead. They pushed too hard and Russia began to push back and reconstitute itself as anti-West. They could have had an extremely powerful ally but instead they were so arrogant they thought they could just have another colony

      • Fishroot [none/use name]
        ·
        3 years ago

        The worst thing is this conflict is the fact that liberalism and the great man theory is integrated into people's conscious that we can never have a real discussion on the political implication of the War or of Russia in general. Every time you point out something about western narrative, people would keep going back to how questioning the narrative is being pro-putin.

        Do people not understand that what was done to Russia in the 90s and the condition we left behind creates the perfect ingredient to have a Strongman politician with revanchist policy towards the west that tries for 50 years to destroy the legacy of the USSR (regardless if the ideologies that strongman expresses towards it)? Mark Ames in RWN said it once on an episode about Navalny said the same shit: ''Navalny can act like a Liberal democratic poster boy all he wants, but as soon as he discovers that Russia will never be consider as an equal to the west, he will tone into an ultra-nationalist (as if he didn't have a history in the past).

    • Fishroot [none/use name]
      ·
      3 years ago

      Tbh it’s a fair assessment, coming from China we kind of understand the sentiment. From a global south perspective, there will never going to be any ideological cohesion because waiting for any anti imperialist moment from the global north is like waiting for the “good guy” to eventually take over.

      There is no salvation for the global south, only survival in this god’s microwave call geopolitics

  • Frank [he/him, he/him]
    ·
    3 years ago

    https://archive.ph/LBN71

    Nazi-adjacent Brits have entered the "And Find Out" portion of their military adventure. Apparently captured along with Azov in Mariupol.

    • amyra
      ·
      edit-2
      16 days ago

      deleted by creator

    • JamesGoblin [he/him]
      ·
      edit-2
      3 years ago

      Same stuff but from Telegram: "The DPR court sentenced to death the foreign mercenaries who fought against Donbass and the Russian Federation. Mercenaries sentenced to death who fought on the Ukrainian side in the Donbass can appeal the decision of the DPR court within a month and ask for a pardon. If the head of the DPR pardons the convicts, the death penalty can be commuted to life or 25 years in prison.

      The death penalty, according to the laws of the DPR, is carried out by firing squad." Edit: the source - https://t.me/EurasianChoice/14969

    • UmbraVivi [he/him, she/her]
      ·
      3 years ago

      It's so transparent how every "pro-Russia official" is specified as such so you know they're wrong ahead of time, yet to see a "pro-Ukraine official" mentioned in these articles.

      • SoyViking [he/him]
        ·
        3 years ago

        It is funny how transparently partisan they are in their coverage of war crimes trials. When pro-Ukrainian officials convict Russians, they talk about murder, war crimes and humanised the victims by giving little personal details like their age but when they talk about allied courts convicting pro-Ukrainian combattants, it's all "show trials" and "trumped up charges".

        • Frank [he/him, he/him]
          ·
          3 years ago

          Honestly all war crimes trials are show trials, and always have been. Victor's justice, nothing more.

    • SoyViking [he/him]
      ·
      3 years ago

      I love how that angloid rag goes to such great lengths not to tell who sentenced the three mercenaries. Instead of "a Donetsk court" or even "a court in the unrecognised separatist Donetsk republic" we are just told that "pro-Russian officials" did it.

      It is also funny how the angloids just assume that the two British mercenaries will be used INA prisoner exchange instead of actually going to pay for their crimes (fuck the Moroccan guy though). Nothing bad can ever happen to good and white people.

  • GnastyGnuts [he/him]
    ·
    3 years ago

    Guys, I just found out from a really insightful youtube debate that Ukraine is the least antisemitic country in all of Europe ("not even just eastern Europe!"). Whoooooooooooooooo.

    • HarryLime [any]
      ·
      3 years ago

      There's a Jewish themed restaurant in Lvov where part of the experience is that you have to haggle over the price.

      • SeventyTwoTrillion [he/him]
        hexagon
        ·
        3 years ago

        Nah, the Labour Party has :long-corbyn: and will spend the next century atoning for the crimes against humanity that Corbyn committed, and even suggesting, nay, thinking that your mouth shouldn't be able to be used at any time as a toilet for Israeli settlers in Palestinian territory is tantamount basically being Hitler.

    • Mardoniush [she/her]
      ·
      3 years ago

      Hard to be anti-semitic when you don't have any left...wonder where they all went and why?

      • Z_Poster365 [none/use name]
        ·
        3 years ago

        It’s not even true. Ukraine has more documented anti-Semitic hate crimes than all the rest of the ex-Soviet bloc

        • Mardoniush [she/her]
          ·
          3 years ago

          Yeah, I know, Ukraine still has a sizable Jewish community, though the fall of the SU greatly diminished it.

          The Wiki page is a read

          "Rabbis Jonathan Markovitch of Kyiv and Shmuel Kaminetsky of Dnipro are considered to be among the most influential foreigners in the country."

          Markovitch isn't a fucking Foreigner FFS!! (Kaminetsky was born in Israel tho, kinda cringe) he were born there, his grandparents were born there. He's more fucking Ukrainian than the Queen is English!

    • Frank [he/him, he/him]
      ·
      3 years ago

      It's easy not being antisemitic when your forebears massacred all the jews.

  • Leper_Messiah [he/him]
    ·
    3 years ago

    Those br*t mercs have been sentenced to death by DPR courts, according to Russian telegram

    So much for their claims that they were all just smol bean cooks & medics i guess

    • Kanna [she/her]
      ·
      3 years ago

      Does anyone have a link to that? If not, I'm sure there will be media about it soon

      • ClathrateG [none/use name]
        ·
        edit-2
        3 years ago

        https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/09/britons-sentenced-to-death-russian-occupied-ukraine-aiden-aslin-shaun-pinner

      • Leper_Messiah [he/him]
        ·
        3 years ago

        I saw ClathrateG already answered, but i figured i might as well give you the link to where i saw it if you want it:

        https://t.me/RTnewsEU/3897

  • ClathrateG [none/use name]
    ·
    3 years ago

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/09/zelenskiy-compares-russian-invasion-of-ukraine-to-covid Zelenskiy: Russian invasion of Ukraine is ‘Covid-22’ and weapons are vaccine :so-true:

    • BynarsAreOk [none/use name]
      ·
      3 years ago

      So by that analogy Zelensky should be careful with what he wishes for, the US will stop giving a shit about Ukraine within the next 3 months then and then pretend the war never happened and everyone will start insisting that Ukraine should learn to live with the dead and the lost territories.

    • Fishroot [none/use name]
      ·
      3 years ago

      So when is he going to tell the population that the invasion is going to be part of life and the people don’t need to wear body armor while shopping for groceries in the sniper alley?

  • Leper_Messiah [he/him]
    ·
    3 years ago

    Tugs, fishing-boats, and even barges can be modified easily to hide all kinds of improvisational armament, endowing almost any platform with the delightful capability to scare, harass, and even sink Russian vessels—almost anywhere in the world.

    Uhhhh i'm pretty sure that widespread adoption of using (and arming!) civilian watercraft by Ukraine would just lead to the Russian navy concluding that any and all naval traffic be considered a potential threat, which would only make the blockade WORSE you fucks i stg

    Not to mention a lot of innocent sailors getting blown tf up, but i'm sure the dipshit who wrote that slop would be fully happy with that outcome, given that they'd have the chance to pin more atrocities on Russia's uNpRoVoKeD aGgReSsIoN

    • BynarsAreOk [none/use name]
      ·
      edit-2
      3 years ago

      Just to make the point clear, there is no actual Russian blockade. Russia already committed to safeguarding the commercial vessels that want to leave.

      The issue was always that Ukraine mined their own ports so the ships can't leave. Ukraine also refuses to de-mine the ports using their fear of a Russian attack as an excuse. The reality is Ukraine and the west want Russia to be blamed for the fictional Ukrainian grain crisis so as to serve as a scapegoat for the global food crisis.

    • Frank [he/him, he/him]
      ·
      3 years ago

      Remember when Zelensky was handing out rifles to everyone who could walk and then people complained about Russia shooting civilians?

  • SeventyTwoTrillion [he/him]
    hexagon
    ·
    3 years ago

    Global Supply Chains Rattled by Winds of War Naked Capitalism

    The Russian invasion of Ukraine and the subsequent sanctions imposed on Russia are adding strains to already disrupted global supply chains. This column introduces a new indicator to show that the war is already rattling global supply chains. It also argues that despite the modest share of Russia and Ukraine in global trade, the ramifications for global activity can be sizeable as both countries are among the top global exporters of energy products and raw materials that enter upstream in the production processes of several manufactured goods and that may be hard to substitute in the short term.

    This article gets very economically into the weeds and I'm not smart enough to comprehend it without devoting like 30-60 minutes to digest it all and google all the acronyms, so if you're the type of person who loves that shit, then go have fun in there.

    But just to bring something from the comments on nakedcapitalism to here:

    "The trouble with global resources is you tend to think of them like pieces on a chess board. So when you see Neon being taken off the market, it is like seeing a knight being taken off a chessboard. But it is not like that at all. It is more like a Jenga tower. And yes, you can remove a fair number of pieces but take the wrong one out and down she comes. So you look at a problem in the supply chain and you try and work out the effects downstream as they work their way out. The west tells Russia no computer chips for you so Russia says no means to produce chips for you either. So trying to work out an arrangement may take months but in the meantime, a shortage of computer chips is now going to get much worse. Meanwhile here is a new problem to contend with in the supply chains – ‘An explosion in Texas has knocked out 20% of US LNG export capacity for at least three weeks’"

    This is definitely a vibe I've gotten from the articles I go through, and that I think @granit has talked about a few times, which is that these people - scientists, analysts, journalists, whatever - view everything as atomized units, disconnected from everything else. As the comment above says, it's not like that at all - everything in the economy is, to a lesser or greater extent depending on the product (e.g. lego vs iron ore), related to everything else.

    I sometimes feel like if, like, the entire agricultural system crashed over the course of a month due to some freak supervolcanic eruption or sun activity or something, and only 25% of the crops were being grown, that these analysts would be like "Oh, no worries, agricultural products only makes up (to make up a number) 6.7% of the global GDP! It'll suck, but the system will keep on ticking!" and then all make surprised pikachu faces when the entire global economy collapses because most of the workers in other industries start starving and dying, because everything is related to everything else.

    • Frank [he/him, he/him]
      ·
      3 years ago

      Emergent systems. Complexity arising from the interactions of simple elements. A small ripple in the water showing the presence of a great creature moving underneath.

  • ClathrateG [none/use name]
    ·
    3 years ago

    freakin Putler!!1 :angery: https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/v8dmdu/polish_president_says_calls_with_putin_like/ speaking to Hitler -Bild , on a side note how does he know what that was like? :soviet-hmm:

    • SeventyTwoTrillion [he/him]
      hexagon
      ·
      edit-2
      3 years ago

      Putin: "Please don't put nukes on my borders or bomb ethnic Russians for 8 years please"
      The west: "This is JUST like when Hitler said he was gonna invade European countries and put the untermensch in concentration camps"

  • SeventyTwoTrillion [he/him]
    hexagon
    ·
    edit-2
    3 years ago

    Two EU countries oppose Ukraine’s candidacy RT

    While the European Commission will likely recommend next week that Ukraine be granted candidate status, Denmark and the Netherlands may block this step toward EU membership, Bloomberg reported on Thursday. Danish officials are reportedly concerned about Ukraine’s track record of corruption and the rule of law.

    Ukraine applied to join the European Union in February, and European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen stated in April that a decision on formally bestowing candidate status on Kiev could be made within “a matter of weeks.” While the commission is expected to deliver its opinion on Ukraine’s candidacy next week, and while EU leaders are expected to discuss the matter in Brussels one week later, the process may not be as streamlined as von der Leyen has promised.

    A number of anonymous officials told Bloomberg that while a majority of the EU’s member states are willing to support candidate status for Ukraine, some – including the Netherlands – are in opposition.

    Once again, the unity of the West is truly staggering. I bet Putin didn't expect everybody to be so united in their opposition to him! I bet he's so mad!

  • SeventyTwoTrillion [he/him]
    hexagon
    ·
    edit-2
    3 years ago

    Washington Starts Blame Game Over Defeat In Ukraine Moon of Alabama

    expand

    The New York Times, here via Yahoo, has some rather weird piece over alleged lack of intelligence on Ukrainian warplanes:

    U.S. Lacks a Clear Picture of Ukraine's War Strategy, Officials Say

    "President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine has provided near-daily updates of Russia’s invasion on social media; viral video posts have shown the effectiveness of Western weapons in the hands of Ukrainian forces; and the Pentagon has regularly held briefings on developments in the war.

    But despite the flow of all this news to the public, U.S. intelligence agencies have less information than they would like about Ukraine’s operations and possess a far better picture of Russia’s military, its planned operations and its successes and failures, according to current and former officials.

    Governments often withhold information from the public for operational security. But these information gaps within the U.S. government could make it more difficult for the Biden administration to decide how to target military aid as it sends billions of dollars in weapons to Ukraine.

    ...

    Avril D. Haines, the director of national intelligence, testified at a Senate hearing last month that “it was very hard to tell” how much additional aid Ukraine could absorb.

    She added: “We have, in fact, more insight, probably, on the Russian side than we do on the Ukrainian side.”

    One key question is what measures Zelenskyy intends to call for in Donbas. Ukraine faces a strategic choice there: withdraw its forces or risk having them encircled by Russia.


    Andrei Martyanov rants about the piece:

    "Well, NYT decided to start steering clear of this whole Russia "lost in Ukraine" BS it promoted together with neocon crazies, and begins this ever familiar tune of the "intel failure". Right.

    U.S. Lacks a Clear Picture of Ukraine's War Strategy, Officials Say

    Hm, how about I put it bluntly--the U.S. never had clear picture on anything, especially on Russia, or, as a private case, [the Special Military Operation] and completely bought into Ukie propaganda, which shows a complete incompetence of the "intel" in the US.

    ...

    The narrative on [the Special Military Operation], in reality, is dead and the failure is not being set, it already happened. It is a fait accompli no matter how one wants to put a lipstick on the pig.


    Larry Johnson thinks there is another another motive behind the story:

    "Frankly, I find it hard to believe that there are not solid analysts at the Defense Intelligence Agency who know the answers to all these questions. The real problem may not be a lack of intelligence. Nope. It is the fear of telling the politicians hard truths they do not want to hear.

    Given the billions of dollars the United States is spending on “intelligence” collection systems, it is time for the Congress and the American public to demand that the intelligence services do their damn job."


    I do not believe for one moment that U.S. intelligence services do not know what is going on in Ukraine and in Kiev. They know that the Ukraine has lost the war and will have to sue for peace as soon as possible.

    They also have told the White House that this is a case and that the whole idea of setting up the Ukraine to tickle the Russian bear was idiotic from the get go. The question now is who will take the blame for the outcome. Who can the buck be passed to?

    There is always the option for politicians, as Andrei assumes is the case, to blame the intelligence and the various agencies which provide it. This was done when the war on Iraq, based on false claims weapons of mass destruction, started to go bad for the U.S.

    But what the NYT piece does is passing the buck from the intelligence community to president Zelensky of Ukraine: "He did not inform us about the bad position his country was in."

    It is cover your ass time and Zelensky prominence in the 'west' makes it possible to blame him personally for the outcome of the war.


    On May 31 the Council of Foreign Relations, with its head Richard Haass, had a public discussion about the state of the war in Ukraine. One of the participants was the former Deputy Commander of the United States European Command Stephen M. Twitty. He knows and makes absolutely clear where the war stands:

    TWITTY: I think the war in the Donbas is starting to turn to the Russians’ favor, and when you take a look at—and I’m particularly talking about the eastern part of the Donbas—the Russians have transitioned from trying to pour all their combat power into the Donbas to obliterating every single town. Whether it be Rubizhne, Lyman, they’re working now on Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk as well, they’re obliterating these particular towns, and that’s how they’re making their headway. They’re not putting a bunch of combat power with infantry forces and tanks in there. They’ve taken all their artillery and they’re treating it like Mariupol and that’s how they’re making their headway. So they’re starting to make some headway in the eastern Donbas and so we have to watch that one closely.

    HAASS: ... Why don’t we reverse [our policies]? General Twitty, is there something that the president said? Are things we’re not doing that we should be doing? Is there things that you would recommend at this point?

    TWITTY: Well, as I take a look at this, you know, Secretary Austin came out that we’re going to weaken Russia. We have not really defined what weaken means, because if you take a look at the Ukrainians right now, I take a strong belief in Colin Powell’s doctrine—you overwhelm a particular enemy with force. And right now, when you take a look at Ukraine and you take a look at Russia, they’re about one to one. The only difference is Russia has a heck of a lot of combat power than the Ukrainians.

    And so there’s no way that the Ukrainians will ever destroy or defeat the Russians, and so we got to really figure out what does weaken mean in the end state here. And I will also tell you, Richard, there’s no way that the Ukrainians will ever have enough combat power to kick the Russians out of Ukraine as well, and so what does that look like in the end game.


    There follows some discussion with other participants about potential outcomes the U.S. would like to see, like Ukraine in the state that it was in before 2014.

    Twitty then explains why those ideas are all unrealistic and that what is needed instead are immediate negotiations:

    TWITTY: Yeah. So I got a couple of things for you, Richard. So I want to go back to what you said. Pre-2014—I want you to think about that one, because I’ve had time to think about it hearing others here, and what I will tell you, Richard, you know, I learned from the National War College there’s something called ends, ways, and means.

    So if that’s your end state—pre-2014—then I’m interested to hear the ways and the means because, from a military standpoint, if that’s the way then the means would be the Ukrainians lack, again, the ability to pull that off to pre-2014. They just lack that ability. They don’t have the combat power.

    And I also want to remind you we hear a lot about Russian casualties and Russian losses. We hear very little about Ukrainian losses, and keep in mind they’re losing soldiers throughout this war as well. They started at approximately two hundred thousand. Who knows where they are today?

    And so it’s hard to recruit and maintain that level of professionalism in that military. So that’s my first point. The end, ways, and means, they lack that, to be able to go back to the pre-2014.

    The second point that I would make is, you know, as you look at the DIME—diplomatic, informational, military, and economic—we’re woefully lacking on the diplomatic piece of this. If you notice, there’s no diplomacy going on at all to trying to get to some type of negotiations. And I don’t think that we can lead that, given where Putin thinks about us.

    But if you sit back and think about those that could possibly be a part of this negotiation team, you know, you have the—two of them are in—that I’m going to list are in NATO. One is President Orbán out of Hungary. Perhaps he can help out in the negotiation effort. The other one is President Erdoğan of Turkey. Longtime friends of President Putin, although some view that relationship as transactional. I don’t know. Let’s put it to the test and see.

    • SeventyTwoTrillion [he/him]
      hexagon
      ·
      3 years ago
      Part 2

      Someone objects and makes a case for 'giving the Ukraine more time' by pushing more weapons to them. Twitty dismantles that argument:

      TWITTY: —Charlie, I agree 100 percent. But I will tell you, when you look at time, the Ukrainians have to go into negotiations with the upper hand at a position of strength, and so right now they are at a position of strength. The more this war goes on we never know if that’s going to wane, and then they will lack the ability to go to the bargaining table at a position of strength and may lose more than they intended, and so let’s keep that in mind as well.


      There it is. The professional military and intelligence people know exactly what is up. The Ukraine is already in a very bad situation and from here on it can only get worse. They expect that the Ukrainian frontline will break down. I am sure they are urging, like Twitty does above, for immediate negotiations using whatever third party is available.

      It is the White House for which such an outcome is not what it had hoped to achieve. It can in fact not allow it. It is currently blocking any negotiations because admitting to a loss in Ukraine would give the Republicans more ammunition to damage Biden.

      Yves Smith detects some signs that, behind the curtains, some direct negotiations between Ukraine and Russia are actually taking place:

      "We may know in due course, but this development, even if these talks are more at the feeler stage, is proof that Zelensky is losing power. Recall that there has already been some chatter about a possible military coup. And it is hardly uncommon for the senior officials of a leader on the ropes to start negotiating with the other side, both out of the best interests of their country and to improve their odds of survival.

      ...

      So that is a long winded way of saying that Zelensky may not have altered his stance, but that instead he is no longer driving the train. And it may also be that some in the Ukraine government are also trying to get the UK’s and US’s hands off the wheel. It may be too early for that to happen, but if they keep trying to shore up Zelensky when his own senior staff (and the military) are turning against him, they could find they bet on the wrong horse. Again, I’m not saying this is a likely outcome, but the fact that it is even conceivable is a big change in the state of play."

      Passing the buck to Zelensky, to then have him removed from this planet, may indeed be the best outcome for the White House ... and for Ukraine.

      In summary, as the title suggests, the West is beginning to realize that the war will not end with even a Ukraine stalemate like the Donbass 2014-2022, and instead will be Russia cleaving territory off until Ukraine surrenders or the whole country is annexed. Perhaps Macron was among the first to realize it when he started to be like "...well, we mustn't humiliate Russia too much, right guys? Maybe we could end the war soon now that we've owned Putin, right guys? We've obviously won already, so why keep fighting? Guys?" But now the media is trying to figure out who to pin the blame on for this.

    • UmbraVivi [he/him, she/her]
      ·
      3 years ago

      But if you sit back and think about those that could possibly be a part of this negotiation team, you know, you have the—two of them are in—that I’m going to list are in NATO. One is President Orbán out of Hungary. Perhaps he can help out in the negotiation effort. The other one is President Erdoğan of Turkey.

      Erdogan and Orban :agony:

  • SeventyTwoTrillion [he/him]
    hexagon
    ·
    3 years ago

    The Tricky Question for Russia of How Far to Go Naked Capitalism

    A longish article (which I take some parts out of) describing the politics of Russia taking Ukraine's territory, how far Russia might go, the potential desire for peace among western governments, and how Zelensky may be decreasingly de facto in charge of Ukraine.

    expand

    Remember that Russia generally follows Clausewitz, and Clausewitz sees war as an extension of politics and a means to achieve political aims. That is why, as some commentators pointed out early on, it made perfect sense for Russia to negotiate with Ukraine even as fighting was underway. Thus the breakdown in negotiations and Zelenksy’s outrageous requirements for resuming them1 constrains Russia’s options for achieving a favorable resolution.

    But, but, but…you might say if you have a keen appreciation of the military situation. The Russian forces are slowly grinding down the Ukraine forces in Donbass without deploying overwhelming forces, despite the fact that Ukraine has heavily bunkers and its best troops there. And Ukraine has been repeatedly caught out trying to depict as best small and typically fleeting tactical wins as big successful counteroffensives. The latest was just this week, when Serhiy Haidai, governor of Luhansk, claimed Ukraine was ousting Russia from Severodonetsk, just as Zelensky was visiting (cynics thought to prevent desertions). That within days turned into mumble mumble shuffle shuffle that it would be too costly to retake the city. Alexander Mercouris reported that this volte face was widely seen in Ukraine as an admission that the story of the offensive was a fabrication and the reaction on social media was harsh. It appears that the citizenry is increasingly critical of his conduct of the war.

    ...

    Many experts also think that the when Russia has taken Lugansk, particularly if it also captures a lot of Ukraine troops in the process, that it will deliver a crippling blow to Ukraine’s morale and potentially also to its battlefield effectiveness. And when Russia no longer has to deal with extended and well defended positions, it could also capture terrain much more quickly. Mind you, Russia’s aim is not to control territory but to destroy Ukraine’s army. However, map-oriented Ukrainians and Western pols would find Russia eating up Ukraine even faster to be disconcerting.

    ...

    It’s not hard to think that Putin hoped to achieve demilitarization (as in an agreement to neutrality) and denazification politically. That’s why it’s short-sighted to view the first phase of the war, when Russia spread itself thinly by sending troops to Chernobyl, Kiev, Kharviv, the South, and Donbass, as a big fail. It may have been executed in a manner that cost too many soldiers’ lives, but it was a convincing enough show of force to bring Ukraine to the negotiating table pronto. Ukraine had made important concessions at the March 30-31 round in Istanbul. A deal was on its way to getting done until the UK and US aggressively intervened.

    So unless something significant changes (more on that soon), Russia has what looks to be a high class problem, but what is a potential trap. Russia is going to determine when the war is over. That means it is going to have to decide how much territory to conquer, to hold, and what to do with them administratively. For instance, I suspect from a “try not to annoy the neighbors any more than absolutely necessary” perspective, Russia would rather have had freed parts of Ukraine that were Russia-friendly become a quasi-independent Novorossia. But Russia is having to stabilize the parts of Ukraine that it occupies, and that includes paying salaries to local government officials and pensions, which means converting banks to roubles. That sort of move sets strong expectations that the territory is joining Russia, whether or not that was the original plan.

    Why is this a problem? Recall what created this mess in the first place, the stoking of hostilities between ethnic Europeans and ethnic Russians. Putin acknowledged this issue at the start of the special military operation, by saying something to the effect of, “We won’t stay where we aren’t wanted.”

    ...

    Even if Russia didn’t have to contend with the politically charged dynamics of widening the war beyond Donbass, there’s also the practical argument of where to stop. If Russia wants to convert areas that are pretty likely to be natively friendly, one strategy regularly discussed would be to take the entire Black Sea coast. That would have the advantage of placating the more hawkish factions in Russia that see taking Odessa as important. Even though this would still leave a lot of Ukraine to its own devices, it would be hostage to Russia for sea access, which might give Russia enough of the upper hand.2

    ...

    Others of a more maximalist view suggest taking Ukraine up to the Dnieper, which has a certain logic except that Kiev straddles the river. I personally see taking the West of Ukraine as exactly the sort of mess the West hopes Russia will walk into. I can’t imagine the locals would be happy. Subduing a resentful population (even absent actual insurgency) is toxic to the occupier.

    ...

    Despite Zelensky’s intransigence and the US and EU unwillingness to even consider concessions, some important things are breaking Russia’s way. The first is the fact that Ukraine is losing is becoming harder and harder to cover up, and more and more media outlets are staring to report on its poor prospects, not just not winning but even preventing further territorial losses.

    Second is that the sanctions blowback is already imperiling governments. Boris Johnson’s days are numbered. The proximate cause is the dramatic fall in living standards in the UK. Some of that is due to Brexit, although the British press is loath to admit it. Some is due to global supply chain woes. But UK business leaders were surprisingly noisy about warning of food and fuel price jumps and shortages underway and getting even worse this winter. The Estonian government fell, and they so hate Russia that no one there would acknowledge sanctions blowback played a role. Estonia’s annual inflation rate in May was 20%.

    Macron is worried about losing his party’s majority in parliament in next month’s elections. Scholz’s leadership looked wobbly even before Germany’s inflation numbers got scary (producer price index increases of over 30%) as industrial production fell. And as we’ve discussed, Italy hasn’t been all that keen about backing Ukraine.

    But the biggest break has come from Turkey. Russia looked to have worsened its long-term position with Sweden and Finland wanting to join NATO and having been expected to be approved this June. But that’s gone off the rails. NATO entry requires unanimous approval of all members. Turkey is arguably the most important NATO member by virtue of location and having the second biggest NATO army.

    NATO completely dissed Turkey by not pre-consulting them. Turkey objects vigorously to Sweden and Finland entering because both, mainly Sweden, are too friendly to Kurds. Sweden has a representative office in Kurdistan. Turkey has said it wants a Swedish parliament member, Amineh Kakabaveh, who was a former guerrilla and is now a key swing vote, to be extradited. And Turkey has hardened its position when there’s no indication that that NATO or the EU have offered Turkey any bribes to get it to climb down. So NATO looks set to suffer a big embarrassment, and Sweden and Finland will have given up their vaunted neutrality and not gotten anything in return.

    A final, and odd piece of the equation. It appears there are negotiations of some sort happening between Ukraine and Russia. I can’t find the original story in Izvestia, but it was reported by Alex Christaforu yesterday and also mentioned by Stratfor. Izvestia reported that Russia and Ukraine had agreed to terms of a peace deal in March but Boris Johnson scuttled them (some colorful detail on that).

    ...

    However, the interesting bit is the claim that there were negotiations on now. Dimitry Peskov, the Kremlin’s press officer, gave an ambiguous denial. Per Christaforu, starting at 1:10, there are talks underway now that would set a ceasefire with Ukraine to be neutral with various states would serve as guarantors. But the big new change would be that Ukraine would accept the status quo, in terms of Russian areas of control, as ceded territory. That means Ukraine would give up parts of the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia oblasts.

    ...

    In other words, this means there is no bargaining overlap since Putin would be unlikely to stick his neck out that far beyond what men and women in the street would accept. But the flip side is that this suggests that Ukraine privately is making significant suggestions, in stark contrast to Zelensky taking such an extreme posture as to make talks impossible.

    ...

    So that is a long winded way of saying that Zelensky may not have altered his stance, but that instead he is no longer driving the train. And it may also be that some in the Ukraine government are also trying to get the UK’s and US’s hands off the wheel. It may be too early for that to happen, but if they keep trying to shore up Zelensky when his own senior staff (and the military) are turning against him, they could find they bet on the wrong horse. Again, I’m not saying this is a likely outcome, but the fact that it is even conceivable is a big change in the state of play.

    • SoyViking [he/him]
      ·
      3 years ago

      The thing about Sweden and Finland joining NATO turning out to bea humiliating failure really surprised me. Maybe I'm naive but I imagined that Sweden, Finland and the US had competent diplomats that would have seen this coming and talked it through informally with their Turkish counterparts, and arranged for the right bribes to be paid before any grand public declarations were made.

      Even if you didn't expect Turkey to leverage the Kurdish issue as they did, it would still be due diligence for any competent foreign service to quietly reach out to the NATO members in advance to make sure the process could go smoothly.

      Instead the two Nordic countries look absolutely incompetent. Did they really imagine that having the whitest privilige of all would make them welcome everywhere? Were they that delusional?