Ended up in a long discussion one on one with a friend of a friend in a voice chat and what in the fuck. She seemed like a nice person, was fun to play games with, but the things she said made me sick.
The conversation started with some bs about Antifa. She was spouting the typical liberal bs, how they are terrorists, burning down buildings and killing people, etc. I said that it's mostly anarchists burning stuff down(not wanting her to think I'm some sort of antifa terrorist by defending them directly), and she said she thought they were the same thing. I said most antifa people are liberals because most people in general are liberals, and antifa isn't united by ideology, just opposition to Nazis, neo-confederates, racists in general. I was trying to glide over the more surface level stuff reactionaries like to scream about and get to talking about more important stuff people aren't programmed to lash out at as much.
This worked, as this lead to a discussion of what exactly are liberals. I gave the classic definition of supporting free markets, supporting businesses and capitalism in general, believing in personal rights that are all just things that can't be done to you by the government, and not guarantees. The act of defining it made her mad, I think because it implies people who aren't liberals exist.
The conversation went all sorts of places, I mostly asked neutral questions and let her say what she thought. Eventually she said something about authoritarianism, I brought up that a corporation and a government restricting what you can do is equally harmful if they are restricting you in the same way, basically the common sense stuff that people somehow never think about but quickly leads to radicalization once they do. (I've gotten like six people to become socialists or anarchists just by bringing up that point lol). She rejected this saying actually it's your choice to quit your job. Which lead to talking about healthcare being tied to your job. Which lead to saying people aren't entitled to healthcare, a living wage, etc. People are only entitled to what they earn by what labor they are capable of. People who need can't earn enough to pay for what they need to live are just liabilities anyway, if they really are worth keeping alive charities will take care of them.
She presented it like "you could just not pay for healthcare, after all how often do you use your health insurance? Like I go to the doctor once a year, maybe twice if I get hurt or sick". When I told her I need prescription medication to stay alive, and that I have to go the the doctor four or more times a year for that, plus I wear glasses, plus anytime I get sick or injured on top of that, she said "it sounds like you are a liability".
If I can't get medication, I die within a few months most likely. I told her this, that she is telling me if I lose my job I deserve to die. She refused to say this directly, instead saying people who can't afford to pay for what they need to live don't deserve to be taken care of. In response to me asking if she thinks I deserve death because of being born with an easily treated medical condition that only requires medication to keep under control, she would just repeat this. Like she knew what she wanted was absolutely horrific and evil, to the point she refused to directly state it, yet she stood behind it anyways.
It has completely changed my perspective on her and now I'm feeling really depressed. Because I know a lot of people think that way. I know almost certainly that many people I know think that way, yet I'm afraid to talk about it with them because I know that knowing for certain these people who are almost friends want me die will make me feel like crap every time I see them. And I don't wanna cut all these people out of my life, because they are friends of friends and cutting them out means cutting out other people I like. Yet if I know they want me dead, I won't be able to handle pretending to be ok with that, and so be forced to cut them out anyways.
I'm afraid by having that conversation with her I may have ruined one of my friend groups for me because she's usually there if everyone else is.
Why do people have to be so shitty? Like how can people who will literally tell someone to their face they deserve to die for the circumstances of their birth be this common? I don't understand it.
A good response is: "I hope you get cancer and loose your job you horrible bitch". That's it.
I would put that on a 10 hour loop and play it every day
People with strangely absolutist views like that are extremely frustrating to talk to. The good news is that while they will not change their minds during the conversation, in my experience they often do it with time. Seems like you did a good job making her face the reality of what the consequences of her beliefs are. The fact that she refused to state these consequences is a good sign, it means she recognizes a contradiction.
This is the right take. She (probably) didn't mean that you should die, she was trying to reconcile that the existence of pre-existing conditions goes against the ideology that's hammered into most Americans. It's hard to change your political views in one conversation, and she'll probably realize how shitty she was being if she didn't realize before the conversation was even over.
That's not an excuse, but it is a testament to the effectiveness of getting capitalist propaganda pumped into you for your entire life.
this is so sad to read, I'm sorry they were so horrible. Honestly I don't get how that's even a possible train of thought, it's so sick.
Thankfully I haven't had a discussion as horrible as yours but I personally hate trying to talk politics because its so hard to talk about workers the working class in general before they shut down and (figuratively) yell socialist at the top of their lungs and run away. The western propoganda is so ingrained in our culture at this point they would rather purposely hurt workers than accept anything close to leftist ideas.
Avoid labelling the worker and owner classes. Don't say "worker", say "you". People get mad when you put labels on groups because they wanna say "not everyone is like that", even if you make no such claims. Don't say "they do this because they make more money even though it screws you over", say "they make more money if they do this, and sometimes they think it's worth screwing you over".
To be clear; you absolutely deserve better than this. Nobody deserves to die from easily preventable material conditions. You are pricelessly valuable.
I sure wish I had a choice between working to enrich some dipshit and working to help people get food, medicine, an Earth that won't suffocate on CO2, unpolluted oceans, etc. and still be able to eat as well.
I had a fun time with some lib friends this week, who basically agreed with how everything sucks, and the rich should be eaten, but who could not accept the idea of working outside the limits of political action as set by the establishment. Even while agreeing the those limits ensure that no meaningful change will take place. Brains busted just like those people they hate on the right.
This is the exact response I get. Had a friend saying “bring on the meteor” because nothing can be done. When I tried to segue into what can and needs to be done it’s poo pooed because communism bad. Then it becomes a blue no matter who harm reduction conversation... when the conversation literally started with “we’re doomed”.
For many it is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of neoliberal capitalism (cue fallout New Vegas theme)
Just hearing really bonkers or cruel things my family of people I know's family believe really just demoralizes me when you realize that it's basically what alot of Americans are like and believe and you are basically powerless to change it.
The Just World fallacy is incredibly strong, particularly here in the US. It's extremely powerful, particularly as part of the basic Protestant belief package of the country.
As far as dealing with it, there's basically no way to go after it directly. You can stay friends, and try to move their opinions through discussion of individual events, but honestly the most effective tool against folks who believe in this is bad things happening to them in the course of their life. So, if they lose their job, they might be open to revisiting their beliefs.
It sucks, but it does fall under the "I can't teach you to care about other people" header.
This attitude is born out of privilege and material conditions. It is exactly what Marx is getting at when he says, firmly, that material conditions are the driver of the historical movements that lead to social change. This person only thinks this way because she is absolutely and totally removed from any concept of it affecting her.
When it does affect them due to changes in material conditions their views on this change very rapidly. Everything becomes "unfair" and they radicalise. This is obviously something that happens at an overall class level and not EVERY individual level, but you get the picture.
You can change these people if you're actively around them every single day for months and months where you can slowly slowly work class struggle into their lives but the return is not worth the time when easier radicalisations exist all around us. Otherwise it takes humbling from a change in their material conditions, they think they're better than those that don't have means to survive, they like it that way, they're above someone.
She is one of the kinds of people who are the most stuck in that way of thinking. People who grew up poor and got lucky and are now just doing ok, and like to claim their luck was because they just chose not to be a lazy idiot and got a better job instead of being a loser.
"When it does affect them due to changes in material conditions their views on this change very rapidly"
You would think so wouldn't you but many of these people are beyond logical thinking, I read a facebook post today by an american conservative taking about how it's a persons responsibility to look after themselves always and no one should get help from the government, In a later reply they detailed how they lost everything they own, business, house, retirement fund from the economic crash in 2010 and will now have to work until they die but would still never seek government assistance. I literally can't fathom the brain-worms it would require to not see how he'd been fucked over by a system he apparently loves so much despite his self stated life time of hard work.
Individual instances aren't representative of generalised class movements. When people get angry across a class that transfers, it has a larger radicalising effect when it is occurring on larger scales.
Those people are still under the effect of being aspiring oppressors. When they realise they have no mobility and no capability to aspire to oppress their attitudes change.
With this said, there's always going to be reactionaries, and reaction is always going to occur to the growth of the left. They won't completely disappear.
My best friend at 18 was a guy who respected Obama and just "though McCain was a better commander in chief". I spent the next 8 years (as I slowly became a socialist instead of social democrat) frustratingly getting him to agree with things like the rationality of universal healthcare or better funded schools, hell even that minorities don't have a fair shot in our system. We would argue back and forth and eventually he'd see my side on everything except gun control and the military, but then he'd get re-conservatized as soon as I was gone. Cue 2016 and his wife cheats on him and he goes full MGTOW Nazi on me, and I had to cut a person I once considered a brother out of my life. It sucks, I miss him most weeks. You aren't alone in feeling so hurt, so disappointed. I'm not sure why your post made me want to share this, but hugs and warm thoughts, internet stranger.
I always list "Seizing the means" under hobbies and interests lol
I don't have any facts to back me up but I feel like trying to convince people with a political discussion doesn't work. It's kind of like a game and you score your side points. And ideals are too abstract, nobody has to have good ones because there's no heaven or hell irl. But if I could convince without making it look like I'm trying to convince them that we have better friends, hotter sex, and are happier I feel like they'd come around on their own.
People are trained to be oppositional and defensive about the more surface level issues liberals like to go on about, but I have found that the more important core stuff is pretty easy to get people to come to your side on. Just break people's misconceptions they don't even realize isn't the default way of thinking, and things will lead from there. (It's horrible that liberals use minorites as hostages this way, as important issues for minorities get caught in this as "don't touch, will wake the chuds".)
Like the fact that economics and politics are the same thing, social issues and economic issues are nearly the same thing. Like the fact that the employer and employee have diametrically opposed interests.
Avoid demonizing anyone specific, and drop jokes and comments pointing to the reality of the situation. New safety procedure or piece of equipment at work? "They don't wanna pay to replace someone's fingers". New stuff in the break room? "Nice, they managed to sneak past the shareholders". This may be difficult if you work in a place where the boss is the owner, but I've found a joke about workers comp costing too much works well because the boss will see it as making fun of people for needing their medical bills paid, and everyone else will see it as a joke about how the boss isn't your friend as much as they pretend to be, the relationship is all about money.
It's because with any large topic, like where you fall on the political spectrum, there are so many aspects that even if you convince someone with logic and facts about a certain aspect of it, they still have a feeling about the thing in general. You have to change their feelings about it, and feelings are a lot more nebulous. That's why some researchers have suggested that stories are more effective in changing people's beliefs than facts and data.
