hello sir my car is broken and does not run anymore, i would like it repaired to exactly the state it was is in just moments before the wheels fell off thank you.
But the choice is between that and torching your car. One is a shitty non-solution that at best will let you limp another mile, the other is accelerating the problem.
if we are going to torture this analogy further, then i do also have a bike in my trunk (state and local government + congress) that works all right, and i can get on it and sweat a little. but i know if i let the sketchy repair guy barely fix my car, the odds are very high the bike will get stolen. and then my car will immediately fall apart again, and i will be stranded again just like before, but sans bike and whatever arm and leg it cost me to pay the mechanic.
Joe Biden in 2020 would do nothing to prevent Tom Cotton in 2024, yes. What Biden would do is (arguably) give the left more time to grow and organize. With Biden we're strolling lazily towards fascism; with Trump we're sprinting there. The left is not ready for sprinting there.
Joe Biden in 2020 would do nothing to prevent Tom Cotton in 2024, yes. What Biden would do is (arguably) give the left more time to grow and organize. With Biden we’re strolling lazily towards fascism; with Trump we’re sprinting there. The left is not ready for sprinting there.
The left organized WAY more under Trump than under Biden.
Please do not misconstrue this as support for Trump. I am voting for neither. Just addressing this one shitty argument.
The left organized WAY more under Trump than under Biden.
I'm guessing you mean Obama, not Biden.
First, the material conditions of many people are worse today than they were in, say, 2011. It's also no longer plausible to sell people on any sort of slowly-building economic recovery. Second, Obama had a progressive veneer, was incredibly charismatic, and was subjected to all sorts of horrible racist attacks from chuds. From a retail politics standpoint that all made it harder for any sort of left criticism to stick. Third, there was no real infrastructure for any sort of mass leftist movement when Obama was elected (and the closest thing that did exist was his campaign). Compare the protest/media/electoral leftist ecosystem today to that of 2008, and you'll find there's no comparison at all.
If Biden wins he will take office in an economy much more conducive to leftist organizing, will have almost none of the personal/tactical advantages Obama had, and will face much stronger leftist criticism from Day 1.
The left organized WAY more under Trump than under Biden.
Also assuming you meant Obama. The left was almost non-existant in any real visible capacity to the average American until after 4 years of Obama. I'm old enough to remember and have been a leftist since Clinton. To me, that's solid anecdotal evidence that ineffectual dem leadership is more mobalising for the left than transparent fascism for whatever reason.
Libs are immediately pacified as soon as their guy is elected while people that have a modicum of human empathy become more frusted. Trying to play fucking 4D chess about this is going to hurt the left.
obama already serves as the mark for ineffective democratic leadership, biden isn't going to change that, and it doesn't need to be refreshed. what organizes and drives people left is adversity, which is still there during a dumb ass neo-liberal, but much more apparent under a neo-con.
four more years of trump gives the shit time to fester to the surface, which is necessary for people to actual realize what the fuck is happening.
cops have been killing minorities for decades, under obama, under bush, under clinton, the entire fucking time and the whole time it got swept under the fucking rug. that shit only got any real attention because even the mainstream media has to use it as an attack against trump.
trump being president is like a giant shining light on all that is wrong with america, and that light turns off under biden. you are arguing against logic. stop.
I think Trump is less bad of the two horrible options, but again, "prefer" is a tricky word. That tiny margin of preference is not enough to motivate me to vote for Trump. I can't morally pull that lever for someone that monstrous.
I think our political struggle would face fewer obstacles under Trump, but that is not a reason in and of itself to vote for Trump.
I think our political struggle would face fewer obstacles under Trump
Trump is already kidnapping leftists using unmarked vans and federal goons who refuse to identify who they work for. Literally the only reason you run that sort of operation is so that -- if you decide you want to -- you can indefinitely detain or even disappear someone.
How is that (and what it is obviously setting the stage for) less of an obstacle than whatever Biden would do?
Trump is already kidnapping leftists using unmarked vans and federal goons who refuse to identify who they work for. Literally the only reason you run that sort of operation is so that – if you decide you want to – you can indefinitely detain or even disappear someone.
Please spare me the argument that Biden, who was the VP when Obama disappeared American citizens, ran secret prisons, and helped the authorities crack leftist skulls at Standing Rock and Occupy Wall Street, would respect the Constitution™ and not use strongarm tactics against BLM protesters.
He is literally telling you while running for president that he will round these people up and arrest them. What more do you need to tell you that he's indistinguishable from Trump on this issue?
How is that (and what it is obviously setting the stage for) less of an obstacle than whatever Biden would do?
Because you've localized it to one issue where you argue (erroneously, IMO) that Biden wouldn't use fascist measures where Trump is.
In reality, the Dems are the much bigger obstacle to the left organizing. The Dems are squatting on the "opposition party" and positioning themselves as "the left", and then not doing anything "left" and enabling the right.
They are a dampening agent on the left. They are occupying the only weapon we have in terms of electoralism, and rendering it useless. Putting them in power does nothing to stop Republicans, as they thirst to work with them to oppress the people. And it normalizes "the left" being right wing, as Biden's corpse starts more wars and imposes more austerity, and the Republicans move to the right to keep their Nazi street cred. Pushing us further right off the cliff to oblivion. We've repeated this cycle a dozen times; this time is no different.
If you want to argue that electoralism is meaningless and we should ignore it, that's fine. That's another thread. But if we are starting with the premise that electoralism has any worth at all, then it has to start with unseating shitty Democrats. And handing Biden the keys to the White House is going to set that process back a decade.
Absolutely this. It is clear that every president since (and obviously including) Reagan has been a proponent of the same Neoliberal dismantling of the public sphere. I used to think our only chance was for the Republican party to become untenable, but that isn't going to happen with the way rural states are disproportionately represented. The Democrat party must become untenable when running the same old shit, it is the only way to get them to change. I'm not sold on electoralism, direct action is clearly working better, but you can't argue that motherfucking Biden, a literal segregationist and author of the 1994 crime bill (which he still supports) is any type of real harm reduction.
edit: I also love that Trump destroys our international reputation, hurting the US hegemony more than anything I could ever have imagined.
when Obama disappeared American citizens, ran secret prisons
Big difference between doing that in Iraq and doing it in Oregon. Legally it's an entirely different world, and it's similarly night-and-day in terms of media coverage.
helped the authorities crack leftist skulls at Standing Rock and Occupy Wall Street
The local police are generally who's cracking skulls, and the president doesn't control the local police. Big difference between the NYPD -- who Obama had zero control over -- breaking up Occupy and Trump creating a federal police force on the fly that's answerable to him.
He is literally telling you while running for president that he will round these people up and arrest them.
This is no different from libs breathlessly believing that Trump will do everything that pops out of his mouth. Big difference between wanting to arrest the protesters who break windows and wanting the military to massacre protesters en masse.
Big difference between the NYPD – who Obama had zero control over – breaking up Occupy and Trump creating a federal police force on the fly that’s answerable to him.
Big difference between 500 people sitting on blankets, vs. police cars being overturned in a dozen cities and people wheeling out guillotines, too. Hence the bigger authoritarian response. The billionaires are getting more nervous, and the president does what the billionaires want.
If you think Biden wouldn't do exactly what Trump did if he faced the same set of circumstances, you are Charlie Brown running 90 MPH at a football.
This is no different from libs breathlessly believing that Trump will do everything that pops out of his mouth.
Oh yeah, nope, no reason whatsoever to believe Biden will throw people into unmarked vans... except for the fact that Biden was the VP under a president who literally broke the Constitution and infringed upon civil rights daily, and walked away after 8 years completely clean, with people going "he never had a scandal except a tan suit".
Big difference between wanting to arrest the protesters who break windows and wanting the military to massacre protesters en masse.
You have now devolved into right wing talking points to defend Biden. It's ok, he'll just strongarm and arrest the ones that deserve it!!
No denial about that. But the only reason Trump didn't write the bill is because he wasn't a Senator (and because he's an idiot). He literally wanted to bring bad the death penalty after CP5.
Im not voting Biden, but implying hes worse than Trump shows how much of a white privileged prick you are..... And that you know 3 Black folks maximum.
If you are white, you have no right to downvote this comment.
if Biden wins, white libs think black american's are fine again. Never mind that most of the extrajudicial murders happened in dem controlled areas. The DNC has to change to help PoCs, and they damn sure aren't going to change by being rewarded for being indistinguishable from moderate Republicans.
i am leaning towards the idea that the best case is for Biden to lose, but Dems take control of the senate so they can block all Trump's nominees for 4 years. but it's hard to say how Trump would act without McConnell there to kill everything in the Senate. i think Dems could send bills to his desk, he might actually sign some of them. i think he would even sign single-payer if they called it "Trumpcare" and he'd secure his big ego a huge legacy (at least narrowly on healthcare) like tommy douglas in canada. haha, who i am i kidding, the dems would never pass a single-payer bill. (Trump has genuinely supported single-payer for decades.)
of course, Trump leaning into some kind of right-wing nationalism but with welfare state policies (hmmm is there a name for such a thing), it would be absolutely devastating politically for the liberals who have been offering absolutely nothing, and insufferably smug about, too.
the best case is for Biden to lose, but Dems take control of the senate so they can block all Trump’s nominees for 4 years
That could be the best scenario, but I doubt Dems have the fortitude or party coherence to stonewall like that. I don't think there's any chance they'd stonewall a Supreme Court nominee for years, especially, and there's a good chance they'd lose the ensuing legal battle if they tried.
There's also a chance this could lead to Trump being impeached again, but removed this time, which would leave us with President Pence. Again, I don't know if libs could get their act together enough to do this, but that + a Democratic Congress would probably be even better than Trump with a Democratic Congress.
I doubt there would be 67 votes to remove him. You might be right about the court, but in my opinion (and this is a narrowly tailored kind of accelerationism) I think anything that convinces the libs the SCOTUS is illegitimate is probably good. Because even if Biden wins he is going to put stooges like Garland on it. Even in a best-case scenario, where and AOC/Lee Carter ticket wins the white house, the court is going to fuck any left-wing agenda hard, whether it's Biden nominees or Trump nominees.
I actually think the Senate would stonewall Trump's nominees, but they are fucking PISSED at McConnell for his strategy of "turning the Senate into a graveyard." They did not get to that point in a political career to be nothing but bench warmers to prevent McConnell from pulling some kind of wonky quorum bullshit and do god knows what while Dems are doing whatever the do in DC. For example, even Joe fuckin Manchin has gone back and forth on the filibuster. Not for any ideological reasons, but just because if they don't nothing will happen even if they do take the Senate majority.
and this is a narrowly tailored kind of accelerationism
I don't think you can really do accelerationism with any sort of control.
Even in a best-case scenario, where and AOC/Lee Carter ticket wins the white house, the court is going to fuck any left-wing agenda hard
Not necessarily; FDR was able to do a lot of stuff similar to what the AOC wing of the party is suggesting now, and the power of the federal government has almost universally increased since then.
They did not get to that point in a political career to be nothing but bench warmers
I doubt they're actually concerned about this -- as a politician there's nothing better for your continued electoral hopes than not being able to do anything and having someone else to blame it on. If you do something, it might not work and you might take the heat.
Not necessarily; FDR was able to do a lot of stuff similar to what the AOC wing of the party is suggesting now, and the power of the federal government has almost universally increased since then.
Right, but the reason FDR was able to do this is because he was prepared to tell the court to go fuck themselves and the court decided it was better to concede to his agenda then establish the precedent of being cuckolded by the White House. Will the modern Democratic Party be willing to disregard the judicial branch? Will the media abide it? Will the liberals? I don't think so. The Democratic Party under FDR was an entirely different animal than the one we have today.
the reason FDR was able to do this is because he was prepared to tell the court to go fuck themselves
But because he did that we now have ~90 years of judicial precedent saying the federal government can do all sorts of things. That precedent didn't exist in the 1930s, so the Court was effectively deciding whether to greatly expand the scope of federal powers. Those same questions won't come up this time; they were decided most of a century ago.
Plus, a lot of left-ish policy proposals are extensions of existing programs (e.g., M4A) or well-established policies cut-and-pasted onto progressive goals (e.g., much of the Green New Deal). It be shocking if something like M4A even got before the Supreme Court, because what legal challenge can you throw at it that hasn't been shot down about Medicare over the last 50 years? There's no need to threaten the judicial branch over most of this stuff.
Really, it isn't a question of which one will help grow the left. Neither of them will help grow the left. They are both dedicated to a system which vows to eradicate the left.
Neither administration will lift a finger to make our task of organizing easier. Both candidates are in a pissing contest vowing to crack down on "aNtIfA" harder than the alternative in an effort to appease the suburban petit bourgeois fascists. The real answer is that it ultimately doesn't matter who wins. This is not a democratic process under any pretense. This country is not operating with "the consent of the governed" in any measurable fashion. The election is a charade, and to get caught up in the outcome one way or another is a waste of precious sanity.
The "Trump may be better for the left" takes are cringe. The "Biden may be better for the left" takes are cringe. They are both good for capital, they are both bad for us, and the whole circus is so far removed from the things the masses actually have control over.
Sure, we need to take whatever we can get. I remain convinced that there is absolutely nothing we can "get" here though, aside from opportunities to agitate.
If the left is going to grow in this country it's up to us to convert our friends and neighbors. The worsening of material contiditions under Trump is just as likely to drive people to the right as it is to the left. Biden might be scum and I personally won't be voting for him, but he will preserve the status quo giving us four more years to organize. Under Trump it's entirety possible that "far left" organization will be made a priority target. In fact he's doing right now by strawmaning Biden as an Antifa puppet.
Under Trump it’s entirety possible that “far left” organization will be made a priority target. In fact he’s doing right now by strawmaning Biden as an Antifa puppet.
Federal goons are already arresting DSA organizers.
Neither administration will lift a finger to make our task of organizing easier.
Of course they aren't going to actively help; the question is which will create an environment more conducive to recruiting leftists. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the side currently abducting leftists in unmarked vans (and that's openly discussing when they can order the military to shoot leftists) is not going to create the best environment for the left.
smashed windows disrupt brunch -> smashed windows are bad -> anarchists do mindless violence, right? -> these people smashing windows (who of course have no legitimate grievances) must be anarchists -> I'll say they should be arrested so people can get back to brunch
That's the extent of his ideological opposition to anarchists. It's standard conservative "law and order" stuff with less racial coding. Republicans, on the other hand, have spent decades building elaborate propaganda machines to equate anything left of Ronald Reagan with the worst shit you can think of.
That’s the extent of his ideological opposition to the left.
Did you just unironically post this?? After watching the same primaries i did? Joe "i didn't want my kids to grow up in a racial jungle of desegregation" biden? Joe "i voted for the Iraq war and i'd do it again" Biden? Joe "there was no problems at all with the crime bill" biden?
Ah you changed to anarchists, that's fair but i still don't agree. I don't think Biden knows what an anarchist actually is, but i'm sure he thinks anarchists are literally terrorist. Which is still really fucking bad for us.
Right before you posted this I edited my comment to say "anarchists" instead of "the left." The point is he doesn't have a fucking clue what "anarchism" or any other type of leftism is. If he were made king for a day he wouldn't march leftists into death camps; many Republicans would.
Joe “i didn’t want my kids to grow up in a racial jungle of desegregation” biden?
Joe “there was no problems at all with the crime bill” biden?
This is just garden-variety racism or indifference to racism, not any sort of deep-seated ideological hatred of the left.
Biden's certainly not opposed to leftism on any sort of deep ideological level the way Republicans are. Republicans made Pinochet into a meme; libs at worst just want to stop property destruction so they can go back to ignoring protests.
Trump would probably help the left grow more than Biden
I don't think many people who say this are actually serious about it, because if they were they'd vote Trump. After all, voting is not some moral referendum; it's a (heavily limited) political tactic. Trump = acceleration, and for the reasons stated above the left is not ready for acceleration. You don't seek out a conflict when you're small and disorganized.
Please take a look who gutted M4A and GND, and tell me if Trump can even top that.
You're talking about "gutting" policies that don't even exist and that likely wouldn't exist even if Bernie was the nominee, won, and somehow got a Democratic majority, too. M4A and GND are imaginary at this point, so gutting them doesn't mean anything in the real world. Literally anything Trump does that has real-world consequences is worse.
pretend like everything is OK
What part of "the left needs to grow and organize and needs the best possible environment for that" is "pretending like everything is OK?"
It's not necessarily accelerationism to think that the liberals in a Biden administration would use every ounce of political power to crush the left, rather than the right. Whereas if Biden loses, the liberals will be split between playing defense and punching left. The right doesn't understand the difference between the left and liberals in the first place.
There is also a strong argument to be made that if Biden wins, the Republicans will make gains in state and local, and in congress. It happened extensively under Obama. Then you are weighing one office, the presidency, against a slew of other parts of government. If we're being honest your state and local government has a lot more impact on your day to day life than the president. The people from whom the president matters most are people who live in red states, and not in the city. The people for whom the downballot matters most are people in the swing states. So if you live in Michigan, you might wonder, are you willing to risk getting another Rick Snyder running your state just so Biden can do fuck all in the White House for 4 years, and set Kamala up to lose to Tom Cotton or Josh Hawley or Nikki Haley or some other asshole who is much more competent ghoul than Trump?
There is also a strong argument to be made that if Biden wins, the Republicans will make gains in state and local, and in congress.
Why wouldn't that happen under a hypothetical Sanders administration? "We're better off with the GOP in office because otherwise the GOP will win more lower seats" can't be the logic all the time, or else we'd just willingly hand over the keys to them every four years. I'd wager at least part of the answer is that a black man with an exotic-sounding name breaks chud brains in a way a white guy named "Joe" won't.
Who can know for sure, but I think the fact that the Sanders administration would be doggedly focused on addressing all of the pain points and kitchen table issues people are experiencing. If he was the "organizer in chief" I think is a radically different scenario from what Obama did (he basically dismantled his massive grassroots apparatus when he won) and surely would be different from what Biden will do if he wins.
doggedly focused on addressing all of the pain points and kitchen table issues
Another part of what got Democrats beaten badly in 2010 was Obama promising the moon and then disappointing. He was Hope and Change, and instead we got a bare-minimum economic recovery and zero movement on ending our forever wars. Even Obamacare was a letdown -- it was the mildest reform he could get away with and the dismantling of it was started almost immediately.
No one is expecting anything from Biden other than "not Trump."
Doesn’t that say something about how good or bad he really is for the left? There’s a lot of tension between “Trump would be better than Biden for the left” and “no fucking way would I ever vote for Trump.”
"Better" implies Trump would actually good. I don't like to use that word. I prefer to say "Trump would be slightly less apocalyptically bad than Biden" for the left.
There's two bad choices for the left, which is why I'm not participating. But if we're spinning out which future scenario would more likely lead to less shitty outcomes for leftists, it's the one that gets us closer to wiping out the Democratic Party completely, since they are the more immediate threat to leftists having viable political alternatives, far more than Republicans are.
No self respecting leftist is going to vote for Trump
Doesn't that say something about how good or bad he really is for the left? There's a lot of tension between "Trump would be better than Biden for the left" and "no fucking way would I ever vote for Trump."
So you really think the corporate elites are going to let even a center left soc dem like Bernie Sanders come close to power again?
You could have said the same thing after 2016, yet there he was as the Democratic frontrunner in 2020 through the first four primaries. Corporate elites have enormous sway over elections, but they can't just determine the outcome by flipping a switch. To kneecap Bernie they needed (1) the left not to be too strong, (2) a centrist politician with at least some credible public support, and (3) some coordinating force -- Obama, in this case -- to persuade centrist candidates to drop out on cue. There were other factors that helped them pull it off in 2020, and there are a dozen random things that could have wrapped it up for Bernie no matter what they did (imagine if covid or the Tara Reade story hit two months earlier). And don't forget, Bernie is not an especially strong candidate. He's old, he's not particularly charismatic, he had to create a political base from scratch, he had no allies in the party, and he comes from a state too tiny to have much of an electoral impact. If anything about that situation changes in the future, there's no guarantee they'll be able to job another candidate the way they jobbed Bernie.
But now if his supporters capitulated, the bourgeoisie will not be afraid anymore.
No matter what the left does, the left doesn't get to decide how that's portrayed in the media because the left's media arm is still in its infancy. They're going to try to blame the left for any negative outcome no matter what we do. We can't control the narrative, so the discussion is about what little influence we do have on the end result, and what result we'd prefer.
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hello sir my car is broken and does not run anymore, i would like it repaired to exactly the state it was is in just moments before the wheels fell off thank you.
But the choice is between that and torching your car. One is a shitty non-solution that at best will let you limp another mile, the other is accelerating the problem.
if we are going to torture this analogy further, then i do also have a bike in my trunk (state and local government + congress) that works all right, and i can get on it and sweat a little. but i know if i let the sketchy repair guy barely fix my car, the odds are very high the bike will get stolen. and then my car will immediately fall apart again, and i will be stranded again just like before, but sans bike and whatever arm and leg it cost me to pay the mechanic.
Joe Biden in 2020 would do nothing to prevent Tom Cotton in 2024, yes. What Biden would do is (arguably) give the left more time to grow and organize. With Biden we're strolling lazily towards fascism; with Trump we're sprinting there. The left is not ready for sprinting there.
The left organized WAY more under Trump than under Biden.
Please do not misconstrue this as support for Trump. I am voting for neither. Just addressing this one shitty argument.
I'm guessing you mean Obama, not Biden.
First, the material conditions of many people are worse today than they were in, say, 2011. It's also no longer plausible to sell people on any sort of slowly-building economic recovery. Second, Obama had a progressive veneer, was incredibly charismatic, and was subjected to all sorts of horrible racist attacks from chuds. From a retail politics standpoint that all made it harder for any sort of left criticism to stick. Third, there was no real infrastructure for any sort of mass leftist movement when Obama was elected (and the closest thing that did exist was his campaign). Compare the protest/media/electoral leftist ecosystem today to that of 2008, and you'll find there's no comparison at all.
If Biden wins he will take office in an economy much more conducive to leftist organizing, will have almost none of the personal/tactical advantages Obama had, and will face much stronger leftist criticism from Day 1.
Also assuming you meant Obama. The left was almost non-existant in any real visible capacity to the average American until after 4 years of Obama. I'm old enough to remember and have been a leftist since Clinton. To me, that's solid anecdotal evidence that ineffectual dem leadership is more mobalising for the left than transparent fascism for whatever reason.
Libs are immediately pacified as soon as their guy is elected while people that have a modicum of human empathy become more frusted. Trying to play fucking 4D chess about this is going to hurt the left.
obama already serves as the mark for ineffective democratic leadership, biden isn't going to change that, and it doesn't need to be refreshed. what organizes and drives people left is adversity, which is still there during a dumb ass neo-liberal, but much more apparent under a neo-con.
four more years of trump gives the shit time to fester to the surface, which is necessary for people to actual realize what the fuck is happening.
cops have been killing minorities for decades, under obama, under bush, under clinton, the entire fucking time and the whole time it got swept under the fucking rug. that shit only got any real attention because even the mainstream media has to use it as an attack against trump.
trump being president is like a giant shining light on all that is wrong with america, and that light turns off under biden. you are arguing against logic. stop.
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I think Trump is less bad of the two horrible options, but again, "prefer" is a tricky word. That tiny margin of preference is not enough to motivate me to vote for Trump. I can't morally pull that lever for someone that monstrous.
I think our political struggle would face fewer obstacles under Trump, but that is not a reason in and of itself to vote for Trump.
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Trump is already kidnapping leftists using unmarked vans and federal goons who refuse to identify who they work for. Literally the only reason you run that sort of operation is so that -- if you decide you want to -- you can indefinitely detain or even disappear someone.
How is that (and what it is obviously setting the stage for) less of an obstacle than whatever Biden would do?
Please spare me the argument that Biden, who was the VP when Obama disappeared American citizens, ran secret prisons, and helped the authorities crack leftist skulls at Standing Rock and Occupy Wall Street, would respect the Constitution™ and not use strongarm tactics against BLM protesters.
He is literally telling you while running for president that he will round these people up and arrest them. What more do you need to tell you that he's indistinguishable from Trump on this issue?
Because you've localized it to one issue where you argue (erroneously, IMO) that Biden wouldn't use fascist measures where Trump is.
In reality, the Dems are the much bigger obstacle to the left organizing. The Dems are squatting on the "opposition party" and positioning themselves as "the left", and then not doing anything "left" and enabling the right.
They are a dampening agent on the left. They are occupying the only weapon we have in terms of electoralism, and rendering it useless. Putting them in power does nothing to stop Republicans, as they thirst to work with them to oppress the people. And it normalizes "the left" being right wing, as Biden's corpse starts more wars and imposes more austerity, and the Republicans move to the right to keep their Nazi street cred. Pushing us further right off the cliff to oblivion. We've repeated this cycle a dozen times; this time is no different.
If you want to argue that electoralism is meaningless and we should ignore it, that's fine. That's another thread. But if we are starting with the premise that electoralism has any worth at all, then it has to start with unseating shitty Democrats. And handing Biden the keys to the White House is going to set that process back a decade.
Absolutely this. It is clear that every president since (and obviously including) Reagan has been a proponent of the same Neoliberal dismantling of the public sphere. I used to think our only chance was for the Republican party to become untenable, but that isn't going to happen with the way rural states are disproportionately represented. The Democrat party must become untenable when running the same old shit, it is the only way to get them to change. I'm not sold on electoralism, direct action is clearly working better, but you can't argue that motherfucking Biden, a literal segregationist and author of the 1994 crime bill (which he still supports) is any type of real harm reduction.
edit: I also love that Trump destroys our international reputation, hurting the US hegemony more than anything I could ever have imagined.
Big difference between doing that in Iraq and doing it in Oregon. Legally it's an entirely different world, and it's similarly night-and-day in terms of media coverage.
The local police are generally who's cracking skulls, and the president doesn't control the local police. Big difference between the NYPD -- who Obama had zero control over -- breaking up Occupy and Trump creating a federal police force on the fly that's answerable to him.
This is no different from libs breathlessly believing that Trump will do everything that pops out of his mouth. Big difference between wanting to arrest the protesters who break windows and wanting the military to massacre protesters en masse.
Ummmmm
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy
Big difference between 500 people sitting on blankets, vs. police cars being overturned in a dozen cities and people wheeling out guillotines, too. Hence the bigger authoritarian response. The billionaires are getting more nervous, and the president does what the billionaires want.
If you think Biden wouldn't do exactly what Trump did if he faced the same set of circumstances, you are Charlie Brown running 90 MPH at a football.
Oh yeah, nope, no reason whatsoever to believe Biden will throw people into unmarked vans... except for the fact that Biden was the VP under a president who literally broke the Constitution and infringed upon civil rights daily, and walked away after 8 years completely clean, with people going "he never had a scandal except a tan suit".
You have now devolved into right wing talking points to defend Biden. It's ok, he'll just strongarm and arrest the ones that deserve it!!
Yeah, the only argument for this is if you believe in accelerationism.
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Biden is a segregationist that wrote the 1994 Crime Bill he still supports. He's not good for PoCs, he's absolutely a racist.
No denial about that. But the only reason Trump didn't write the bill is because he wasn't a Senator (and because he's an idiot). He literally wanted to bring bad the death penalty after CP5.
Im not voting Biden, but implying hes worse than Trump shows how much of a white privileged prick you are..... And that you know 3 Black folks maximum.
If you are white, you have no right to downvote this comment.
if Biden wins, white libs think black american's are fine again. Never mind that most of the extrajudicial murders happened in dem controlled areas. The DNC has to change to help PoCs, and they damn sure aren't going to change by being rewarded for being indistinguishable from moderate Republicans.
lmfao was gonna comment the exact same thing
wrong, we will get our shit totally wrecked
https://i.imgur.com/GFSSat0.jpg
i am leaning towards the idea that the best case is for Biden to lose, but Dems take control of the senate so they can block all Trump's nominees for 4 years. but it's hard to say how Trump would act without McConnell there to kill everything in the Senate. i think Dems could send bills to his desk, he might actually sign some of them. i think he would even sign single-payer if they called it "Trumpcare" and he'd secure his big ego a huge legacy (at least narrowly on healthcare) like tommy douglas in canada. haha, who i am i kidding, the dems would never pass a single-payer bill. (Trump has genuinely supported single-payer for decades.)
of course, Trump leaning into some kind of right-wing nationalism but with welfare state policies (hmmm is there a name for such a thing), it would be absolutely devastating politically for the liberals who have been offering absolutely nothing, and insufferably smug about, too.
That could be the best scenario, but I doubt Dems have the fortitude or party coherence to stonewall like that. I don't think there's any chance they'd stonewall a Supreme Court nominee for years, especially, and there's a good chance they'd lose the ensuing legal battle if they tried.
There's also a chance this could lead to Trump being impeached again, but removed this time, which would leave us with President Pence. Again, I don't know if libs could get their act together enough to do this, but that + a Democratic Congress would probably be even better than Trump with a Democratic Congress.
I doubt there would be 67 votes to remove him. You might be right about the court, but in my opinion (and this is a narrowly tailored kind of accelerationism) I think anything that convinces the libs the SCOTUS is illegitimate is probably good. Because even if Biden wins he is going to put stooges like Garland on it. Even in a best-case scenario, where and AOC/Lee Carter ticket wins the white house, the court is going to fuck any left-wing agenda hard, whether it's Biden nominees or Trump nominees.
I actually think the Senate would stonewall Trump's nominees, but they are fucking PISSED at McConnell for his strategy of "turning the Senate into a graveyard." They did not get to that point in a political career to be nothing but bench warmers to prevent McConnell from pulling some kind of wonky quorum bullshit and do god knows what while Dems are doing whatever the do in DC. For example, even Joe fuckin Manchin has gone back and forth on the filibuster. Not for any ideological reasons, but just because if they don't nothing will happen even if they do take the Senate majority.
I don't think you can really do accelerationism with any sort of control.
Not necessarily; FDR was able to do a lot of stuff similar to what the AOC wing of the party is suggesting now, and the power of the federal government has almost universally increased since then.
I doubt they're actually concerned about this -- as a politician there's nothing better for your continued electoral hopes than not being able to do anything and having someone else to blame it on. If you do something, it might not work and you might take the heat.
Right, but the reason FDR was able to do this is because he was prepared to tell the court to go fuck themselves and the court decided it was better to concede to his agenda then establish the precedent of being cuckolded by the White House. Will the modern Democratic Party be willing to disregard the judicial branch? Will the media abide it? Will the liberals? I don't think so. The Democratic Party under FDR was an entirely different animal than the one we have today.
But because he did that we now have ~90 years of judicial precedent saying the federal government can do all sorts of things. That precedent didn't exist in the 1930s, so the Court was effectively deciding whether to greatly expand the scope of federal powers. Those same questions won't come up this time; they were decided most of a century ago.
Plus, a lot of left-ish policy proposals are extensions of existing programs (e.g., M4A) or well-established policies cut-and-pasted onto progressive goals (e.g., much of the Green New Deal). It be shocking if something like M4A even got before the Supreme Court, because what legal challenge can you throw at it that hasn't been shot down about Medicare over the last 50 years? There's no need to threaten the judicial branch over most of this stuff.
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Really, it isn't a question of which one will help grow the left. Neither of them will help grow the left. They are both dedicated to a system which vows to eradicate the left.
Neither administration will lift a finger to make our task of organizing easier. Both candidates are in a pissing contest vowing to crack down on "aNtIfA" harder than the alternative in an effort to appease the suburban petit bourgeois fascists. The real answer is that it ultimately doesn't matter who wins. This is not a democratic process under any pretense. This country is not operating with "the consent of the governed" in any measurable fashion. The election is a charade, and to get caught up in the outcome one way or another is a waste of precious sanity.
The "Trump may be better for the left" takes are cringe. The "Biden may be better for the left" takes are cringe. They are both good for capital, they are both bad for us, and the whole circus is so far removed from the things the masses actually have control over.
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Sure, we need to take whatever we can get. I remain convinced that there is absolutely nothing we can "get" here though, aside from opportunities to agitate.
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If the left is going to grow in this country it's up to us to convert our friends and neighbors. The worsening of material contiditions under Trump is just as likely to drive people to the right as it is to the left. Biden might be scum and I personally won't be voting for him, but he will preserve the status quo giving us four more years to organize. Under Trump it's entirety possible that "far left" organization will be made a priority target. In fact he's doing right now by strawmaning Biden as an Antifa puppet.
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The libs don't actually like Biden the way they like Obama. He's just "not Trump" to them.
Federal goons are already arresting DSA organizers.
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Of course they aren't going to actively help; the question is which will create an environment more conducive to recruiting leftists. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the side currently abducting leftists in unmarked vans (and that's openly discussing when they can order the military to shoot leftists) is not going to create the best environment for the left.
biden literally said anarchists should be prosecuted. not gonna count on him stopping that shit.
In Biden's pudding/lib brain:
That's the extent of his ideological opposition to anarchists. It's standard conservative "law and order" stuff with less racial coding. Republicans, on the other hand, have spent decades building elaborate propaganda machines to equate anything left of Ronald Reagan with the worst shit you can think of.
Did you just unironically post this?? After watching the same primaries i did? Joe "i didn't want my kids to grow up in a racial jungle of desegregation" biden? Joe "i voted for the Iraq war and i'd do it again" Biden? Joe "there was no problems at all with the crime bill" biden?
Ah you changed to anarchists, that's fair but i still don't agree. I don't think Biden knows what an anarchist actually is, but i'm sure he thinks anarchists are literally terrorist. Which is still really fucking bad for us.
Right before you posted this I edited my comment to say "anarchists" instead of "the left." The point is he doesn't have a fucking clue what "anarchism" or any other type of leftism is. If he were made king for a day he wouldn't march leftists into death camps; many Republicans would.
This is just garden-variety racism or indifference to racism, not any sort of deep-seated ideological hatred of the left.
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Biden's certainly not opposed to leftism on any sort of deep ideological level the way Republicans are. Republicans made Pinochet into a meme; libs at worst just want to stop property destruction so they can go back to ignoring protests.
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I don't think many people who say this are actually serious about it, because if they were they'd vote Trump. After all, voting is not some moral referendum; it's a (heavily limited) political tactic. Trump = acceleration, and for the reasons stated above the left is not ready for acceleration. You don't seek out a conflict when you're small and disorganized.
You're talking about "gutting" policies that don't even exist and that likely wouldn't exist even if Bernie was the nominee, won, and somehow got a Democratic majority, too. M4A and GND are imaginary at this point, so gutting them doesn't mean anything in the real world. Literally anything Trump does that has real-world consequences is worse.
What part of "the left needs to grow and organize and needs the best possible environment for that" is "pretending like everything is OK?"
It's not necessarily accelerationism to think that the liberals in a Biden administration would use every ounce of political power to crush the left, rather than the right. Whereas if Biden loses, the liberals will be split between playing defense and punching left. The right doesn't understand the difference between the left and liberals in the first place.
There is also a strong argument to be made that if Biden wins, the Republicans will make gains in state and local, and in congress. It happened extensively under Obama. Then you are weighing one office, the presidency, against a slew of other parts of government. If we're being honest your state and local government has a lot more impact on your day to day life than the president. The people from whom the president matters most are people who live in red states, and not in the city. The people for whom the downballot matters most are people in the swing states. So if you live in Michigan, you might wonder, are you willing to risk getting another Rick Snyder running your state just so Biden can do fuck all in the White House for 4 years, and set Kamala up to lose to Tom Cotton or Josh Hawley or Nikki Haley or some other asshole who is much more competent ghoul than Trump?
Why wouldn't that happen under a hypothetical Sanders administration? "We're better off with the GOP in office because otherwise the GOP will win more lower seats" can't be the logic all the time, or else we'd just willingly hand over the keys to them every four years. I'd wager at least part of the answer is that a black man with an exotic-sounding name breaks chud brains in a way a white guy named "Joe" won't.
Who can know for sure, but I think the fact that the Sanders administration would be doggedly focused on addressing all of the pain points and kitchen table issues people are experiencing. If he was the "organizer in chief" I think is a radically different scenario from what Obama did (he basically dismantled his massive grassroots apparatus when he won) and surely would be different from what Biden will do if he wins.
Another part of what got Democrats beaten badly in 2010 was Obama promising the moon and then disappointing. He was Hope and Change, and instead we got a bare-minimum economic recovery and zero movement on ending our forever wars. Even Obamacare was a letdown -- it was the mildest reform he could get away with and the dismantling of it was started almost immediately.
No one is expecting anything from Biden other than "not Trump."
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Does living in a swing state count as a gun? My liberal vote shaming family and friends are afraid of guns.
"Better" implies Trump would actually good. I don't like to use that word. I prefer to say "Trump would be slightly less apocalyptically bad than Biden" for the left.
There's two bad choices for the left, which is why I'm not participating. But if we're spinning out which future scenario would more likely lead to less shitty outcomes for leftists, it's the one that gets us closer to wiping out the Democratic Party completely, since they are the more immediate threat to leftists having viable political alternatives, far more than Republicans are.
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Doesn't that say something about how good or bad he really is for the left? There's a lot of tension between "Trump would be better than Biden for the left" and "no fucking way would I ever vote for Trump."
You could have said the same thing after 2016, yet there he was as the Democratic frontrunner in 2020 through the first four primaries. Corporate elites have enormous sway over elections, but they can't just determine the outcome by flipping a switch. To kneecap Bernie they needed (1) the left not to be too strong, (2) a centrist politician with at least some credible public support, and (3) some coordinating force -- Obama, in this case -- to persuade centrist candidates to drop out on cue. There were other factors that helped them pull it off in 2020, and there are a dozen random things that could have wrapped it up for Bernie no matter what they did (imagine if covid or the Tara Reade story hit two months earlier). And don't forget, Bernie is not an especially strong candidate. He's old, he's not particularly charismatic, he had to create a political base from scratch, he had no allies in the party, and he comes from a state too tiny to have much of an electoral impact. If anything about that situation changes in the future, there's no guarantee they'll be able to job another candidate the way they jobbed Bernie.
No matter what the left does, the left doesn't get to decide how that's portrayed in the media because the left's media arm is still in its infancy. They're going to try to blame the left for any negative outcome no matter what we do. We can't control the narrative, so the discussion is about what little influence we do have on the end result, and what result we'd prefer.
Should the KDP have worked with the SDP in Weimar Germany is a timeless question and it manifests itself today in our choices.
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What are "material conditions"?
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