Listen up fuckers, cause none of this applies to anybody on this site specifically and I'm just bitching.
I don't have to accomodate neurotypicals who say horseshit like "I don't want to keep a tone tag reference sheet open to have a conversation though", that has officially stopped being a me problem. Similarly, if your response to that is "Communication is a two-way street, so a communication issue is often also a two-way thing", that doesn't sound like I have to accomodate YOUR misunderstanding of MY words, however you have decided to read them. If you decide even in spite of tone tags that I'm being an asshole, frankly get fucked and go decide someone else's emotional state for them. Hell, even if I didn't use tone tags, I shouldn't be required to fucking defend myself from your literal spurious accusations. I've had enough of your disingenuous assertions.
I'm pretty understanding about misreads, just ask me what I meant instead of fucking assuming the absolute worst in people all the time, and also do not go around expecting neurodiverse people to accomodate whatever YOU read into their words all the time. Your fucking problem. It's not their job to sort out your preconceptions and accept whatever emotions you decide for them, which was the point of what I was saying anyway. Ableist shit.
This type of thing has become pretty traumatic over the course of like ten of exactly this type of bullshit, so I don't have the will to cause problems and fight about it but I'm also not willing to constantly cede ground for free to neurotypical expectations.
"Hey that didn't feel great when you said that"
"Oh I'm sorry I'll try better next time thank you for telling me."
Literally that easy folks.
Mystical sorceries beyond the ken of mere NTs, I guess
You're supposed to discern it from their word choice and body language and tone and volume and facial expression and word timing and subtle methods of subtextual communication that are trained into you from childhood
the fact that we have to do this manually doesn't matter to them
Who was supposed to train me on this, 'cause nobody did.
I don't want to keep a tone tag reference sheet open to have a conversation though
THERE'S LIKE 5 WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT
There are technically tons but yeah, nobody uses the weird ones much, just like /s, /srs, /lh, /j, /hj, /gen mostly?
tone indicators are for accessibility and, as such, should be used with full words and not shortenings
also /hj should never be used, it’s worse than useless [video of autistic person in-depth explaining why /half-joking makes statements even more difficult to understand, not more accessible]
I have heard that about /hj before, not surprising to me. Promise I won't do it. You think we should use the whole words, though? I only ever see short forms.
Depends on situation, like any abbreviations/jargon. If in a group that already understands it can be useful shorthand, but for maximum understanding, which is the entire point of tone indicators, full words are more useful to a general audience.
we need variations of sArCaSm CaSe for other tones.
Yeah I guess so? I was literally unaware that every /hj user is a nerd, til.
Half-joking. It's a bad tag because it defeats the purpose if tone tags, which is to provide clarity. Saying you're half-joking does nothing. What are you joking about? What are you serious about? Am I meant to take this seriously? Am I meant to act on it? Are you saying something rude or something that you know is offensive and you feel the need to shield yourself? It's a terrible tag made by people who don't get it and they should all go to the gulag /hj
I know there are a lot, but I only see a handful actually used. They also seem really easy to remember? Like I remember when I saw that /s meant sarcasm and like
I didn't forget that? They seem very accessible and easy to remember to me.Yeah same, I kept the reference sheet next to me for a bit, Idk what the fuss is.
I don't think I ever saw tone tags used before I started using them myself, analogously to closing HTML tags.
You don't even have to remember any tags, just make them up to convey meaning /honest /existentially-tired
Had to look up what a tone tag was. Didn’t know there’s a name for it or that it was used outside of Reddit. I assumed it originated from Reddit because it was a reference to HTML and everyone on Reddit is a stemlord
I knew em first from /s but they have become a tool for neurodiverse people :)
It is pretty toxic how rare it is for people to ask clarifying questions rather than just assuming the worst and taking the opportunity to dunk. Just no good at all and it can be tiring, not least because I'd like to believe the other person isn't that malicious or incompetent irl.
In my experience practicing deescalatory / "organizer mode" conversation irl can really help with this. I don't know why it does but it's like working out a muscle and it gets stronger over time and eventually it forces me to be more patient even with very wrong and belligerent people. In turn this actually helps me out because I get less frustrated overall and can put my limited emotional resources into other things. I have no idea if this would be helpful for you, just sharing something I've recognized in myself.
Exhausting even, must be "fun" fighting people all the time like that, if they keep doing it...
Hi I've never organised because I have big autism
Funny lefty lady also accused me of never de-escalating, Idk how or what that looks like. There's a part of me that says FUCK EM ITS THEIR FAULT but if I could avoid this stress going forward, I want to know. I'm not exactly being impatient with them though, the only thing I haven't budged on is: I won't give ground to zero effort neurotypicals, and if what I said doesn't apply to you it isn't hostile to you. I've been very polite and reasonable elsewise...De-esc is basically just manipulating someone by using language that may calm them down or otherwise defuse the situation. It can also be a physical thing like separating people or walking away. Luckily, the manipulation ends up becoming just acting like a very patient and deescalatory person so there isn't much downside.
In my experience I also think it's usually the other person's fault lol. They're often a bigot or otherwise a reactionary or dishonest or inconsistent or making other people unsafe. The main challenge and barrier is that despite knowing this, a direct confrontation is often the least productive course of action even though it's honest and the person on the other side should hear and understand their mistake. You could think of it like playing a game or building out a strategy where the win scenario is getting someone to stop doing what they're doing by basically lying to them or distracting them as if they're a child. Eventually, it may become second nature and therefore feel less dishonest to be "handling" someone (or it might not!).
Anyways I'm not saying you have to do this or anything, just want to share something that works for me and that I've seen work for a lot of people. And it's not about you taking any blame or responsibly for the situation, just methods of dealing with people. Most of the people I use this on are being shitty in some way, it's not like I blame myself for their behavior! Also no judgment for letting NT people know they fucked up.
Oh yeah I'm really bad at that sort of thing, there you go.
Yeah like in this case, the butthurt ableism! Idrk what the right approach here was, I know an anarchist who said I should have just replied "I wasn't being hostile", but of course I was grumpy that they'd DECIDED my TONE for me, so uh oops.
That's the trouble I have I guess, is the people doing this often have the most disagreeable fucking position humanly possible, why should I have to choose between what's right and not being stressed to death??? Fuck NTs for this,
em all.
I don’t identify as neurodivergent, but I tend to misread/assume negative (which is the result of my own set of traumas and history that I need to police). And it’s a stark contrast, because you’re saying you tend to be understanding as a neurodiverse individual with misreads, holy shit most neurotypical people are the exact opposite. Zero consideration that they might have been putting out negative signals, it must be the person misreading‘a fault.
As a neurodivergent people who assumes the negative of what people are saying a lot, @ashinadash@hexbear.net is correct. Neurotypical people as a whole simply assume actual intent to be hostile or malicious from other people, but since they can perceive their own intentions they act like others are insane for doing the same to them. Neurodivergent people are absolutely capable of learning toxic behaviors like this, but more often than not the fact that we many of us don’t “read more into” what people say or do prevents us from doing the blaming/assuming part, unless we’ve managed to associate a non-obvious behavior with hostility or something else through personal experience (aka conditioning, like learning to associate someone smiling with anger because you’ve experienced someone who always flips out after they smile).
That behaviour from neurotypicals often comes across as sanctimonious "how could you do this to me, I'm just a smol bean!!!" type shit as they accuse you of being the son of Mussolini. It also means they cannot imagine that you genuinely aren't assuming ill intent in people, it's bizarre. They end up projecting their own hostility onto you.
It’s weird because my response when I catch a “vibe” is to enter a defensive mode. I don’t understand what causes people to want to make the situation worse when they detect stuff like that? Like I understand if you don’t like leaving things unconfronted, but if the anger isn’t even really real yet then it’s weird to bring it into existence on purpose (unless it’s because you’re offended or genuinely hurt or something ofc)
Me either, NTs just adore attacking people I guess! /s More seriously, I think they do genuinely get offended and hurt by... things they project onto us.
I'm doin' that right now I guess, so flay my ass if you're gonna. If people are willing to be nice to me I'm not gonna destroy them, I try to avoid conflict basically all the time. I hate with a passion when people just decide I've said something because I'm a bastard or whatever.
But yeah, they can accuse people of being mad all day and yet will lose their shit at same...
/pos meaning positive but likely to be interpreted as piece of shit is also pretty funny
i’m just gonna put /nm after everything i post so that nobody can corncob me
I've forgotten what hj stands for and immediately thought of Hungry Jack's (called hj's by many).
I'm sure I'll find out somewhere in this thread
"Hey Gorb cheer up mate its not that bad"
Me literally sitting and vibing to music doing my work.
I cant even just sit quietly and enjoy my time alone with them getting uppity. NT's go in the bin
This here is nerd shit, I like looking at them with a deadpan expression and saying "I'm as cheery as can be" lol
That whole "communication is a two-way street" pisses me off, because it always means I have to cater to them, never the other way.
When I get interrupted or am having a stressful conversation, my reaction is to raise my voice. Some people cry, I raise my voice. It is completely involuntary. I developed it because people keep interrupting me, and so I have learned to stand my ground.And NT fucking love to say that I'm bad at communication, but seems to me they're the ones who suck at it.
I have ADHD and I've learnt I can be grating in ways I do not perceive myself. I've learnt to be upfront. If I am working on a project with a colleague and it seems like we're not getting along I'll ask "hey it seems like we're not getting along, but since we're going to have to work together we can't just ignore each other. Would you mind telling me what I'm doing that's frustrating you?"
It never goes anywhere though. They always say "nothings wrong! I think we're getting along great!" Then two months later at some informal event they'll finally have worked up the liquid courage to tell me what it is.
It's always something I'm doing wrong and never a question of maybe being misunderstood! It'll be something like raising the voice. But instead of asking why I do it, it's always "this is wrong of you to do" but if it's a two-way street why tf do they never stop and wonder WHY I am raising my voice? Could it be that they're also doing something?
I'll get told that I'm bad at communicating, but I'm not the one who can't figure out to voice my frustrations with the other person, nor am I the one who can't perceive an issue or ask about it so that it can be solved.People like to say autisticics are bad at communication, but my autistic friends are some of the easiest to get along with. They'll be at a party and straight up tell me "hey there's too much going on and I'm getting kind of tired. Do you have a place I can retreat to for a while, otherwise I'll have to go home?"
My NT friends will join a group playing a drinking game and actively sabotage the game so its not as fun, so they can convince people to stop playing the game and do something else instead. My NT friends will say shit like "is it just me, or do you feel a breeze too?" Which apparently means "close the window", so when I answer "no I don't feel a breeze, but then again I am wearing a long-sleeved shirt" IM THE RUDE ONE.
You know what my autistic friends do when they want me to close a window? They say "hey I'm cold, would you mind closing the window?"
But yeah it's definitely the neurodivergent that are bad at communicating.Never look inwards NT people it's never you. And you are oh so accommodating! All the times ND people annoy you and you say nothing? So grand of you. Could it be that you also annoy ND people and we say nothing? Surely not, and if it is the case, then that's just those weird ND people who need to learn to chill out and fit in.
Followup: I hate how anger is treated socially. If you get mad, you're the bad guy. You can be in a discussion with someone who does and says some truly awful things, but because they cry and you raise your voice, you're the problem.
Doesn't matter that they interrupt you. Doesn't matter that they don't listen. Doesn't matter that they diminish everything you say. Doesn't matter that they say terrible things you yelled. I got so mad that I yelled "fuck you" at a colleague once, and forever onwards when we discussed that situation that was all it was about.
Never mind that he showed up an hour late to a shift. Never mind he hadn't closed or cleaned last night. Never the fact that I stayed an additional hour to help with the mountain of dishes we had because HE HADNT SHOWN UP ON TIME OR PREPPED ANYTHING, never mind the fact that the first thing he does when things cool down isn't to greet me or to thank me, no it's to make himself a plate of scrambled eggs - and how could I get mad at him for that? Did I see the rush there was in the cafe when he arrived? He didn't even have time to drink his coffee! Never mind that I choose to just leave. Never mind that he has the fucking audacity to stop me on my way out from what has now turned into an 12-hour shift so he can complain that I've left them with "a mountain of dishes" (about two cycles in the dishwasher) and "barely anything prepped" (this genius ate the last of the scrambled eggs). Never mind that I started calmly telling him how I felt he was being very rude. Never mind the fact that he interrupts me to call me lazy and unrealistic. What matters is that I yelled "fuck you" in response.Hey guess what, fuck this guy. He sounds like a loser! Inconsiderate arsehole!
I know about people losing it when you get angry, and so I've basically filed all of mine down to nothing. Barely helps though.
I ran into him years later while he was working a dead-end job that he hated, which made me feel vindicated. I've never had a better cup of coffee than the one he had to give me after having to tell me he fucked up preparing a pre-baked muffin lmao
That's almost /thread right there, so much of this deescribes so many issues I've had with NTs. Fuck em for this.
The tea is someone called me aggressive for this stance, so
I'm madI cried my eyes out lolSee here
This is because many people are illiterate. Literacy is more than just understanding all the words in front of you. Understand the intended audience is part of it. Understanding tone from what is written is another. Understanding the implicit meaning is another. Understanding the subject of the material another. Understanding the entirety of it and how each part works together to convey the message is another.
People are seriously lacking ALL OR MOST of these skills. It is a literacy problem. When you see someone respond to a tweet putting "some people" on blast as if it pertained to them personally, they are illiterate. They lack reading comprehension skills. They did not understand the subject and intended audience of the tweet. It may be due to some cognitive or learning issue but usually it is not. They simply cannot read well and were never really taught well. I find that this is largely Americans who have this issue.
It is not an online thing. This is a problem in general.
It's kind of a selfown when they respond to a nonspecifically-targeted statement as if it's targeted at them, like oh so you're one of the neurotypical bastards I'm talking about here?? I wish it was burger specific but this person lists their timezone as GMT+1, lmao.
I hate that this is a general problem, I thought it was a terminally-online, touch-grass thing...
It is frustrating. How about the words, "many people". It doesn't mean "most people" or even "the majority of of people". "Many" isn't a reference to a percentage of people at all. 10 people can be "many" or 1 billion people. How many times I have typed, "many Americans" or "many men" or something like that and gotten back "you can't make a blanket statement like that it's not ALL of them" is so goddamn consistent. Some would argue this is a communication issue and I firmly disagree because I think the majority of people underwstand this but it's always a small subset who don't. This is a literacy problem. At some point the goddamn reader needs to have some basic literacy skills and understand what the words mean and how they work with each other.
It's always in defense of privileged groups when they reply like that too, lol. I feel that sometimes people deliberately misread statements like that so they can air out their NOTALLMEN shit too.
Well, it's always the group they belong to, whether privileged or not. They'll do it on noncontroversial statements, too, and ones that aren't even negative. Which gives up the game that it's not something being done defensively. It is truly a literacy issue.
/s goes at the end because it's funnier. tags conveying important meaning should have the open tag too (this shit all comes from computer nerd shit) like the inverted leading punctuation used in spanish so that you read with the correct inflection the first time instead of having to re-read.
Okay, I didn't know it was computer nerd shit honestly.
i'm 99% sure it's from html and we just dropped the brackets from </s> like people dropped the asterisk on trans*
I pepper end-smilies at the end of my sentences for that purpose 🤷
It conveys the same thing usually and helps with the missing body language.
Joke's on you fucker, they'll read it as being sarcastic!!! No winning.
I'll just assume I didn't add enough smilies. Oh you've done it now! 😤😤😤😤
I used to do that until I got told I was passive-aggressive. I started doing it because I was told my text communication was curt and could feel harsh.
Huh I've been doing it for decades without issues. I tend to stick to the standards though :D
I guess it might be different on email/textmessage on phone and on webforums
Same. It is apparently "the passive-aggressive smiley face" and there I was doing it in earnest. This was one of the moments that cemented my understanding that I am not one of those people.
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