Can't go allowing Western propaganda about "personal liberty" to interfere with our grand plans. But we're definitely not authoritarian. You will grow to love the options we give you.
wow "securing the gains it made against the west" absolutely requires removing sections from a book that's entirely focused on criticism of mass surveillance. The more you defend mass surveillance, the more you secure the gains.
China is absolutely correct to filter and monitor ideologicaly driven western analysis and thesis that is written by techno libertarians .
Good to know that you've checked what the references were that are removed to know this. Oh wait, 100% you're saying based entirely on presumption, not on "analysis".
And mass surveillence is necessary at these scales and in our current geopolitical reality.
lmao
Cuba has mass surveillence, venezuela has mass surveillence , the USSR had, even Catalonia had secret police etc. Every single socialist project that wanted to survive for more than city scale and for more than a year does mass surveillence and is in a constant media and informationwarfare with the west and the global hegemony. Let alone the largest in history that has a billion+ people and is in the start of a new cold war with america
lmfao "mass surveillance is good and therefore uniformly justified in every context". Amazing work of analysis here. This also means it's justifiable to delete any references to mass surveillance even existing within China because?
The stuff that was removed was shit talking about "Authoritarianism" and "Totalitarianism" which are both essentially purely propaganda based terms without any form of class analysis. Its literally "When governments do bad stuff except not if its technically private companies doing that stuff".
essentially purely propaganda based terms without any form of class analysis
Authoritarianism is against mass movements and supports executive decisions.
Minimal political mobilization and suppression of anti-regime activities. Ill-defined executive powers, often vague and shifting, which extends the power of the executive.
and everyone knows that totalitarianism is anti-Marxist because it reduces the workers level of control over society. It erases the public's ability to discuss such a degree that there's a chilling effect on mere criticism. But of course ML is a fash ideology so that's what they want lol
Weird how 90%+ of China supports the Authoritarian and Totalitarian big bad CPC by western estimates, surely if the CPC is all of that stuff then people wouldnt like them.
Did you? Like did you read the book and these parts or you just read a fucking Guardian article and got mad at le winnie the pooh cencorship? Why do you act as if you did some deep dive on the issue. You linked a bloody Guardian article and a reddit china bad picture.
The passages were posted by Snowden. People translated them. Some refer to him being assigned to investigating possible attempts at hacking/intrusion by the Chinese government for example. This is in the book referencing western countries doing the same, so there is no "China is therefore uniquely bad".
Also, I didn't link to the article, and you're the one claiming there's a deeper analysis that justifies removal of sections of the book.
More like “every single leftist project worth a damn resorted to mass intelligence suveillence and censorship to even survive and stabilize when existing inside a western liberal capitalistic hegemony and under its attack, let alone a billion people one during the start of a second cold war”. But hey it seems reading comprehension isnt your thing
Mass surveillance is not necessary, actually. Various programs were in fact found to make it more difficult for the various intelligence agencies to do their job, to the point that some programs were literally just shut down quietly because they were ineffective and didn't yield much of worth. But coming to such a conclusion requires actual research and understanding, rather than "western imperialism blah blah material conditions blah blah hegemony" as go to excuses when you don't know much about the topic and you're literally defending mass surveillance of innocent civilians.
Why the fuck should i care about what snowden has to say in his analysis. He is a libertarian and his concepts are informed from that basis, especially with them coming from him being “assinged” to investigate Chinese government activity
I don't know dude, someone who had first hand experience working as a contractor for the NSA, who exposed the mass surveillance they were doing, who was then persecuted by the US government to the point the US deliberately stranded him in Russia sounds pretty interesting to me. Sounds like someone who'd be worth listening to on how governments spy on innocent citizens.
Yes but thats mostly something almost exclussively had to do with the chornic and huge issue of with overbloated Soviet bureocracy on these (and every ) sector…not about the nature ,necessity and usefullness of mass suveillence programs or cencorship practices at any or all capacities that existed. Just that it was structured at an excess and self defeating way which is pretty normal once you know about late soviet bureocracy.That point has nothing to do with the “X and Y werentr necessary actually”.
lolwut?
Literally we know mass surveillance isn't effective. I'm not talking anything to do with soviet era surveillance.
https://www.propublica.org/article/whats-the-evidence-mass-surveillance-works-not-much
No need for any actual analysis on why surveillance exists or might be necessary for a socialist state, all you need is to internalize western propaganda and you're good to go.
Feel free to provide the analysis that suggests it necessary to edit those portions of Snowdens book then. "Western propaganda" is when you publish documents outlining western governments mass surveillance programs, and then publish a book about it that references China surveillance and hacking programs too.
Good to see dipshits who espouse "critical support" not actually engage in the critical part and defend censorship of criticism of mass surveillance that would apparently cause the downfall of China if left intact.
No one said you were beholden, but it's good to illustrate there's no actual defence you can come up with beyond vaguely implying the downfall of china will happen if Snowden's book was published unedited, so you defer to "Log off" when cornered.
lmao intellectual wanking to ask a bit more from dipshits here than "China's downfall will happen if even minor references to hacking and surveillance programs in China exists, even though Snowden also quite happily references, critiques, and literally exposed western mass surveillance programs".
No one is implying this one thing would topple China, but that allowing a stream of shit like this gives western imperialism an opening to start trying to rile up color revolutions and secessionist shit.
Pretty sure Chinese people are already aware of the great firewall and various media being edited for release in China. Pretty sure it's also not impossible to get an undedited version of the book via other means. So how does minor references in a book that discusses mass surveillance in a multitude of countries constitute enough of a danger to warrant removal?
Limiting the amount of people that get exposed to western bullshit about authoritarianism and totalitarianism is a good thing.
Pretty sure Chinese people are already aware of the great firewall and various media being edited for release in China. Pretty sure it’s also not impossible to get an undedited version of the book via other means.
Exactly.
So how does minor references in a book that discusses mass surveillance in a multitude of countries constitute enough of a danger to warrant removal?
It warrants removal for the sake of flexing on western lefties. 😎
Exactly.
So editing the book was pointless. Good to know.
It was for the sake of flexing on western lefties can u read
lol you're gonna clown on Edward Snowden of all people on privacy smdh...
Snowden is clowning when he uses shit terms like authoritarian and totalitarian to paint the enemies of the west as somehow worse than the west itself.
Is it possible for both the US and China to suck on privacy? Just because he blew the lid on the US doesn't magically make China a paean of liberty.
There are issues with privacy in both countries, but for different reasons and in different ways, just mindlessly going "Both sides bad" or "China worse because state" is libshit.
So take a stand, make a statement and regale us with what wonders you know about China's respect for personal privacy. Feel free to share sources, too. I'm here to learn.
Its a tradeoff for security and stability, the dreaded social credit system(Which is actually a non centralized set of unrelated systems in some regions that target specific things) has generally been met with positive attitudes for punishing people that act carelessly or disturb others, but of course Americans shriek at the thought of not having the freedom to ruin everyones day on the train or to run across roads without a green light.
the dreaded social credit system(Which is actually a non centralized set of unrelated systems in some regions that target specific things)
Note that the U.S. has plenty of stuff like this, too. It's not a scary totalitarian thing that only The Other would impose on their citizens; it's your credit report, it's Verizon "firing" customers who aren't profitable, it's a cop ticketing you for littering.
This is the best example of why the terminology of authoritarianism and totalitarianism is liberal bullshit, its literally "When the government does the bad stuff" combined with liberal idealism about rights.
I wouldn't say those terms are entirely liberal bullshit. Imagine whatever socialist utopia you'd most prefer; it doesn't involve the police unnecessarily intruding on your daily life. It's also applied at aspects of the U.S., like our policing.
I'd say those terms are sometimes used as propaganda shorthand, like many terms are. They're not inherently bad, as they describe real situations we want to avoid, but when applied to one of The Bad Countries they're often tossed around at fairly ordinary stuff and any sort of explanatory context is ignored or stripped away.
I mean the point of marxism is to not deal in utopias, obviously anyone would prefer to not have to take measures to control information and keep track of people but thats often necessary as a consequence of the real world.
The reason they become liberal bullshit is that they essentially describe these things as ideologies in themselves, that they are the end goals from the start, and that basically paints any socialist that is ok with previous states as a distinctly evil person to the core and someone who wishes harm and torture upon innocent people.
the point of marxism is to not deal in utopias
Marxism involves an end goal of a moneyless, classless, stateless society. It absolutely has some utopian elements, even if subsequent Marxist revolutionaries were justifiably more practically oriented.
The reason they become liberal bullshit is that they essentially describe these things as ideologies in themselves, that they are the end goals from the start, and that basically paints any socialist that is ok with previous states as a distinctly evil person to the core and someone who wishes harm and torture upon innocent people.
This is liberal bullshit, yes, but I would argue this use of "authoritarianism" is not the only use of the term. In addition to (occasionally) being directed at the U.S. police state, it's also directed at Nazi Germany and the various fascist dictatorships we propped up during the Cold War (e.g., Pinochet). The term has a real, useful meaning outside of its propaganda use.
You literally used the actual ideologies of those dictatorships though, using authoritarianism and totalitarianism is nothing but an attempt to generalize between socialist states and fascist states and to both sides them into either radical centrism or anarchism(lol).
Littering is a shitty thing to do though. Fuck you if you litter.
It is, and that's part of the point. When people talk about the multiple polices that are collectively referred to as China's "social credit system," some of it is tracking genuinely undesirable activities like littering and penalizing people for it. This is exactly the same as getting a ticket for littering.
Nobody finds the both sidesing shit useful. We live in the heart of empire and the best you can do is say "but other place also bad sometimes"
Literally suck it up. There's no freedom anywhere. It's bullshit. Your body has stickers and stamps and rides rails and scales like any piece of fucking meat. Capitalism has subsumed the entire world, and it's fueled by sweat and greased by blood.
You've never felt freedom and most likely never will. Move onto a different topic like, "how do I not become a petty bourgeois prick who whines about some unrealized liberal notion of freedom while sopping up the blood from master's dribbling chin".
I for one love to log in to a website to fight people over wether 'China bad'.
‘China bad’
Will "leftists" ever use Marxist class analysis? No
bourgeois democratic "values" where the rich get to control society
EDIT: could it be any more obvious that the US gives zero shits about privacy and democracy? empty buzzwords in the face of the NSA and the fucking joke of a rigged primary we just had
sees article about Chinese censorship
Quick everyone, say something generic about the USA!
(I know better can be done.)
censorship is necessary and justified to defeat international capital reaction and literally every country censors some things, including the one that uses lofty rhetoric about "freedom" as a tool of imperialism
the only way to get rid of censorship is to get rid of states, and global socialism is the way to achieve that
here are some english resources that are critical of china from a chinese perspective beyond the relatively trivial takes of 'muh freeze peach' and 'muh authoritarianism' (though they do contain mao apologia, balance in all things). fairly easy reads, you can knock them out in a couple of afternoons.
if you can read chinese, this is the official CPC sanctioned website for the bo xilai fanclub, lots of legitimate criticisms and gotchas that you can use to pick fights here as well.
Hey before you guys start a struggle session you should check OP's post history. I think they are doing a bit
Oh, what a shame! Just imagine how great China could become if they learned of the wonders of American bourgeoise "democracy".
So do I add a Trigger Warning? This post seems to have upset some people.
Or is Edward Snowden now the enemy? I thought he and Julian Assange were alright.
Snowden has done some good stuff but politically he's a weird technocrat libertarian guy from what I can tell, either way obviously China would remove shit about "authoritarianism" and "totalitarianism" thats pretty much all western propaganda terms to demonize countries and delegitimize anything they say.
is Edward Snowden now the enemy?
Heard of critical support? We like what he did, but it was always clear that he was still a liberal/libertarian.
- the article is months old
- I doubt op has a copy of the text to verify the claim
- editoiralizing by saying authoritarian, theres an agenda
maybe op should tell us why he posted it?
maybe op should tell us why he posted it?
Look at the image linked in the body, that should tell you everything you need to know about his intent.
lol I guess I did need a trigger warning, look at the controversy this post is generating.
Odd that the adherents of ideology being charged with censorship are responding by... trying to bury this post with downvotes. The irony is rich.
You're obviously trolling with this "Haha trigger warning amiritite?" bit.
look at the controversy this post is generating
Which is exactly what you are apparently after every time you post about China. Why not link more pics supporting the bollocks Uyghur Genocide narrative or links to Business Insider articles about China's scary social credit system?
Downvotes are censorship
Oof.
I didn't realize this site was squarely for current events, might want to mention to people posting pictures of old memes and cats. And you think I need a copy of the physical book in order to make this post? Did you even read the link? Snowden used twitter and some of his readers in China to piece together some of the censored text. And sure, if I have an agenda, it's to keep people questioning their reality.
Think for yourselves.
And sure, if I have an agenda, it’s to keep people questioning their reality.
Which is why you insist on perpetuating western narratives like the Uyghur genocide.
'Questioning reality' apparently leads you right back around to supporting y*nk state department narratives. So much for 'thinking for yourself'.
Which is why you insist on perpetuating western narratives like the Uyghur genocide.
Okay now you're just making things up. I've yet to comment on Uyghurs at all.
Please start thinking for yourself.
Okay now you’re just making things up. I’ve yet to comment on Uyghurs at all.
I am sure that picture in your post's body just manifested into existence by divine ordinance.
OK, I am definitively being had here. Fuck me for being so silly.
The red hand is pretty universal in regards to Chinese censorship. The image of a Uyghur is happenstance. And I'm not informed enough to have an opinion on China's genocide.
So you're not informed enough to have an opinion but you still are informed enough to call it definitely a genocide?
I was just quoting you. I'd personally call it sterilization and work-release prison camps, at least for the ones who cooperate.
I'll ask you: what happens to the ones who don't cooperate?
So you're not informed enough to have an opinion but you are still informed enough to repeat Zenz shit about sterilization? Curious.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Uyghurs were having kids at double the rate of the Han, and China has certainly clamped down on that. If not sterilization, what whitewashing would you like use, "restricted" births?
You're mighty well informed for someone that isnt confident enough to have an opinion, read much of Mr Zenzs work?
Obviously you gotta be brainwashed to not like a guy repeating western propaganda rhetoric about "grand plans" and "authoritarianism".
I am sure his perpetuating the narrative of Yoghurt Genocide is just a weird coincidence, too.
lol as if that is what "grand plan" refers to and not just western fearmongering about China taking over shit.
We're all comrades here. You can always assume the best in people.
How come you didn't specify five year plans then if you specifically meant that instead of everything else thats commonly referred to when using spooky language about Chinese plans?
