the thing is that anarcho-market-socialism just seems like Ancapistan but with worker co-ops to me. I don't get why, in this age of technology, you would ever choose to unironically have firms and markets when we could just centrally plan everything.
I think he does see it as a transition stage, though? I used to keep up with him before he really showed his true colors, and I'm pretty sure he saw market socialism merely as a logical next step from where we are now.
yeah I edited my comment, although I'm sort of skeptical of the "transition stage" argument. In a first-world country with a million little firms producing lots of different commodities it would make sense, but for third-world nations (let's be honest - that's the only place where revolution is going to be happening for a long time) then I think it's easier to nationalize the little industry that exists and skip the whole part where you have to root out and dismantle the market system.
This also depends on the state of the world too, since nations like Vietnam and China had to kind of convert back to market-states since they were sanctioned and deprived of any sort of foreign investment. Without another USSR it's hard to commit to a command economy.
And also that the inherent anarchy of markets rather than a centrally planned economy creates waste and other inefficiencies, something we can't afford if we are serious about dealing with the climate crisis.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/22/asia/china-ren-zhiqiang-xi-jinping-intl-hnk/index.html this guy was corrupt af and got owned just this year LOL
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-china-31310325 this guy was similarly involved in corruption scandal and international intrigue/organize crime... got owned
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/1502808/Tycoon-paid-3-bn-for-stay-of-execution.html and this shit is just sad LOL... another billionaire OWNED
Dude, you have no idea what you're talking about, Chinese billionaires are kept coloring within the lines & many have been executed for their very serious corruption & dealings with the black market & mafia
You're a lib if you think that jailing a billionaire for 18 years for his fucking slimy corruption is the same as Western capitalism & "liberal democracy" giving Jeffrey Epstein a fucking plea deal
You’re a lib if you think that jailing a billionaire for 18 years for his fucking slimy corruption is the same as Western capitalism & “liberal democracy” giving Jeffrey Epstein a fucking plea deal
What am I if I point out that they were fine with his exploitation of the workers and only went after him after he critized Xi?
when attempting to influence the government away from socialism (4 Cardinal principles) is literally the most common grounds for said government expropriating your wealth and corporations.
Damn and all the billionaires get out that is a free hand to extract immense value from the population.
You are arguing in bad faith at this point. You need to shut the fuck up and log off. Come back when you are willing to actually say something of purpose.
Imagine posting an uninformed opinion on a site of 10,000 about a country of 1 and a half billion. There are many transcripts straight from the horse's mouth that talk about this exact shit ya know
no one's invented the "communism" button yet, and Marx himself just critiqued capitalism... if only to reveal contradictions that must be addressed and utilized in a less exploitative & socially deleterious manner
"productive forces" have to be utilized and improved and turned toward social ends. firms have to be organized & workers have to be engaged in production
if you don't think the "mass line" & nationalization of large industries just this year are tantamount to an actual full-on display of the power of "labor theory of value", you're losing the thread imo
https://www.ft.com/content/22108ddd-3280-4013-bcd8-1adc9e6ae13d PRC just reported 4.9% growth yesterday, their consumer spending is returning. And yet, we will only see losses in any other major capitalist country. India shrank something like 30% in the 2nd quarter, that's devastating.
China still leads the world in manufacturing output, the raw numbers of comparative global economic activity & dynamism make this clear
anti-capitalism is easy, but how would you suggest one build a civilization without first examining and utilizing the tools we have?
western liberal democracy created catastrophic horrifying nuclear weapons technology using state capitalism, does that mean USSR and communists should've planted flowers in missile silos?
material circumstances require tempered material responses, not wishful thinking & ... what else are you suggesting again?
i didn't say that Deng Xiaoping was right, I said that CPC is doing the thing right now to weather this year's material circumstances using anti-capitalist measures
but again
state capitalism and this discussion we're having right now is literally the primary stage of socialism
state capitalism and this discussion we’re having right now is literally the primary stage of socialism
If you're a lying piece of shit who wants to betray a revolution it also works really well. I don't know which Deng Xiaoping was, most likely the former, but his shortcut means China is capitalist now.
This is the Kuala Lumpur paper? Lol, I wonder if they have an ideological bias or have ever been involved in political bias scandals
At any rate, here's what that article says about PRC "the country is on track to become the only major economy to expand this year, according to the International Monetary Fund.... The urban jobless rate inched down to 5.4 percent in September"
I wonder what the US' jobless rate is atm.
Basically all I am seeing is that the communists are better at developing past the conventions of capitalism, especially considering how no other capitalist economy is doing so hot...
or maybe the Chinese billionaires were just creating racism in America, and that's where all that money went
are you saying that something like a PRC-style developmental outreach initiative would definitely work within areas of the US where poverty and systemic legally codified racism & capitalism have left centuries of scars? that's actually not that bad of an idea, though I disagree with your cynical & lib characterization. really reaching
It’s more like using the government to scoop up specifically Q Anon/ facsist brainwormed people and giving them education and bringing them out of impoverished rural towns to places with better wages and working more productively with the same effort because of developed labor skills. We would definitely hate that and call it “cultural genocide” 🙄
where you compare PRC's actual outreach and socioeconomic development to USA who has literally waged racist and genocidal campaigns against both Black & Indigenous
not to mention the ACTUAL comparison to be made which is America's Global War on Terror... lol
every advanced country on Earth has some form of mandatory schooling lol... what are you talking about?
adult education & deradicalization is only bad if the PRC does it? but the fact that the One Child Policy only applies to Han families in Xinjiang means that cultural genocide is occurring? what are you talking about?
Regular massive terror attacks in one's country tend to be a sign action is necessary. I'm sure the Chinese imams who support such programs are just puppets, and education is just a ploy by the devious Asiatics of course
he said that Jews have to accept Christ to be allowed into heaven. Zenz also said that he was sent to Earth by God to destroy Communism. Is that what you want too?
wait, did requiring engravings of knives purchased in these areas start before or after the fundamentalist sectarianism?
Hui Muslims also do not completely escape this terrifying inculcation. Which isn’t to say it’s some inherent feature of Islam, obviously not if these groups have co-existed for so long, but we can’t ignore the extent to which a recent narrative of “cultural genocide” gets slathered on these stories.
Hui Muslims are socio-linguistically & historically of Chinese descent. And they are also known to have Salafist & extreme sectarian groups moving in and out of these areas in Xinjiang. Hui muslims have been implicated in Heroin rings & moving those drugs to those Uyghur areas.
To what extent is Daesh and its outgrowths an encouragement for these groups elsewhere & why was the reporter A. Vltchek found dead under suspicious circumstances in Turkey?
Is this global nexus of oil money & militant funding & state surveillance not just a way to encircle China from Central Asia?
Hui Muslims are socio-linguistically & historically of Chinese descent. And they are also known to have Salafist & extreme sectarian groups moving in and out of these areas in Xinjiang. Hui muslims have been implicated in Heroin rings & moving those drugs to those Uyghur areas.
Well damn, better do some collective punishment then.
education & economic development are not law enforcement issues in the same way as the United States’ War on Drugs & racist for-profit prison industry.
you can parse the lasting social benefits & fundamental uplifting aim of one over the other, i am sure of this.
the way news & sensationalism & outright lies blend so perfectly into jingoism can’t be ignored. none of us are immune to propaganda, but I think we can comb through most of these claims about PRC and find very little real or irrefutable evidence.
education & economic development are not law enforcement issues in the same way as the United States’ War on Drugs & racist for-profit prison industry.
Except you just implied it's part of counter-terror efforts.
yes, people who have access to gainful employment and are able to socially advance within society are far less likely to become violent seditionists, wouldn't you agree?
poverty is endemic to these regions, but the knife attacks coincide with the rise of CIA backed fundamentalist Salafism.
yes, giving people gainful employment and education and opportunities for advancement is literally guaranteeing autonomy & self-reliance & engendering human rights
"According to the official Chinese version, during the past three years voluntary education has been imparted to the Muslim population of Xinjiang so that their extremist tendencies may be rectified."
“The purpose [of the camp network] was to try to indoctrinate and change an entire population by channeling them through this dedicated system,” said Adrian Zenz, a leading researcher into the Xinjiang internment camps, who is senior fellow in China studies at the victims of communism foundation"
So you take that Guardian's interpretation of Zenz' lies as fact huh?
Have you seen the provenance of these supposed "leaks"? Because, without actual verification of that information, it's just badly written Chinese script on paper.
Have you seen actual footage inside the schools?
Have you seen any physical evidence to suggest that people are being abused or culturally genocided or killed by PRC?
Because I don't think you've seen anything of that nature, you just take Adrian Zenz' sensationalism & anti-communism as unquestionable
sounds like you just need cope because USA is melting down and PRC is actually holding together and improving the lot of their people using ideologies & economic models that defy Western imperialism
you can try and harp on unsupported & biased Western propaganda on PRC. I will wait for actual evidence
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1160094.shtml this is from last year & seems to indicate things are improving from the perspective of government openness & goodwill
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47191952 this is also from last year and maybe passes the sniff-test for you here for “East vs. West media bias” maybe not idgaf
https://www.voanews.com/east-asia-pacific/china-muslims-work-change-perceptions-after-knife-attacks this is VOA, so it’s definitely tripe, but even it still was giving somewhat of an even-handed & in-depth perspective on the issues at play here in the Obama era
https://thediplomat.com/2014/10/chinese-salafism-and-the-saudi-connection/ this too gives nuance and offers wider connections to the general state of Islam globally. But it leaves out key connections between the “openness” reforms of Deng’s era & how these have always led to potentially dangerous Western & even extreme theocratic influences into the country
the thing is that anarcho-market-socialism just seems like Ancapistan but with worker co-ops to me. I don't get why, in this age of technology, you would ever choose to unironically have firms and markets when we could just centrally plan everything.
I think he does see it as a transition stage, though? I used to keep up with him before he really showed his true colors, and I'm pretty sure he saw market socialism merely as a logical next step from where we are now.
Tbh, that's definitely not his worst opinion
yeah I edited my comment, although I'm sort of skeptical of the "transition stage" argument. In a first-world country with a million little firms producing lots of different commodities it would make sense, but for third-world nations (let's be honest - that's the only place where revolution is going to be happening for a long time) then I think it's easier to nationalize the little industry that exists and skip the whole part where you have to root out and dismantle the market system.
This also depends on the state of the world too, since nations like Vietnam and China had to kind of convert back to market-states since they were sanctioned and deprived of any sort of foreign investment. Without another USSR it's hard to commit to a command economy.
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waiting for xi to nationalize the entire chinese economy
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holy shit its almost like its MLM
cant believe you just said China is a MLM scheme how dare u libaral
MLMs be like "heyyyy hun 🤗😘, can I interest you in an opportunity to overthrow the bourgeoisie?"
:mao-aggro-shining:
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The USSR also did markets for a bit, but Stalin shut that down.
There are arguments for Market Socialism, but unless you seriously address the fact that it's capitalism it's just going to eat you alive.
And also that the inherent anarchy of markets rather than a centrally planned economy creates waste and other inefficiencies, something we can't afford if we are serious about dealing with the climate crisis.
It's basically the opinion of the chinese government.
Dress up capitalism with fancy words and pretend it isn't nearly unfettered wealth extraction from your populace.
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Completely applicable and completely fair. Continue simping for Jack Ma you lib.
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Say this in the medieval ages and they'll hang you for witchcraft
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God damn right I'll shit on fake socialists and dictators.
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Damn, this argument is so good I think it must have been written by a liberal.
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Keep trying buddy, you'll get there.
shut the fuck up lib
you do realize that you're the type of "leftist" who would've denounced the USSR and sided with the US over it?
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/22/asia/china-ren-zhiqiang-xi-jinping-intl-hnk/index.html this guy was corrupt af and got owned just this year LOL
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-china-31310325 this guy was similarly involved in corruption scandal and international intrigue/organize crime... got owned
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/1502808/Tycoon-paid-3-bn-for-stay-of-execution.html and this shit is just sad LOL... another billionaire OWNED
Dude, you have no idea what you're talking about, Chinese billionaires are kept coloring within the lines & many have been executed for their very serious corruption & dealings with the black market & mafia
You're a lib if you think that jailing a billionaire for 18 years for his fucking slimy corruption is the same as Western capitalism & "liberal democracy" giving Jeffrey Epstein a fucking plea deal
laughable
What am I if I point out that they were fine with his exploitation of the workers and only went after him after he critized Xi?
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That's racist just like a liberal too.
Weird how I'm talking about billionaires and leadership and you just keep yelling at me for being white and referencing "yellow hordes".
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Damn and all the billionaires get out that is a free hand to extract immense value from the population.
Fucking great form of socialism.
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You are arguing in bad faith at this point. You need to shut the fuck up and log off. Come back when you are willing to actually say something of purpose.
If you want to settle for better for now capitalism go right ahead.
Don’t whine when trying to keep pet capitalists bites you in the ass.
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uh huh.
China is capitalist now and will only get more capitalist over time. It's a corrosive force.
Imagine posting an uninformed opinion on a site of 10,000 about a country of 1 and a half billion. There are many transcripts straight from the horse's mouth that talk about this exact shit ya know
See I'm gonna try to avoid mentioning guys like Zenz, and keep as open a mind as I can given the situation.
But you cannot seriously expect me to take state published documents seriously?
https://www.nst.com.my/world/world/2020/10/633787/chinas-super-rich-got-15-trillion-richer-during-pandemic OK Capitalist.
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you called me a racist and a brocialist.
That's an explanation like state capitalism is socialism.
Left anti communism greatest hits over here 👈 😎
no one's invented the "communism" button yet, and Marx himself just critiqued capitalism... if only to reveal contradictions that must be addressed and utilized in a less exploitative & socially deleterious manner
"productive forces" have to be utilized and improved and turned toward social ends. firms have to be organized & workers have to be engaged in production
if you don't think the "mass line" & nationalization of large industries just this year are tantamount to an actual full-on display of the power of "labor theory of value", you're losing the thread imo
https://www.ft.com/content/22108ddd-3280-4013-bcd8-1adc9e6ae13d PRC just reported 4.9% growth yesterday, their consumer spending is returning. And yet, we will only see losses in any other major capitalist country. India shrank something like 30% in the 2nd quarter, that's devastating.
China still leads the world in manufacturing output, the raw numbers of comparative global economic activity & dynamism make this clear
So you're a capitalist?
i'm just not going to try to blame the CPC for the West's failure to socially address economic issues
Did PRC socially address this year's economic downturn or nah?
So that's a yes.
Screw off capitalist.
anti-capitalism is easy, but how would you suggest one build a civilization without first examining and utilizing the tools we have?
western liberal democracy created catastrophic horrifying nuclear weapons technology using state capitalism, does that mean USSR and communists should've planted flowers in missile silos?
material circumstances require tempered material responses, not wishful thinking & ... what else are you suggesting again?
i didn't say that Deng Xiaoping was right, I said that CPC is doing the thing right now to weather this year's material circumstances using anti-capitalist measures
but again
state capitalism and this discussion we're having right now is literally the primary stage of socialism
If you're a lying piece of shit who wants to betray a revolution it also works really well. I don't know which Deng Xiaoping was, most likely the former, but his shortcut means China is capitalist now.
wrong, Mao Zedong thought is literally all about "primary stage of socialism"
Which stage is this?
https://www.nst.com.my/world/world/2020/10/633787/chinas-super-rich-got-15-trillion-richer-during-pandemic
This is the Kuala Lumpur paper? Lol, I wonder if they have an ideological bias or have ever been involved in political bias scandals
At any rate, here's what that article says about PRC "the country is on track to become the only major economy to expand this year, according to the International Monetary Fund.... The urban jobless rate inched down to 5.4 percent in September"
I wonder what the US' jobless rate is atm.
Basically all I am seeing is that the communists are better at developing past the conventions of capitalism, especially considering how no other capitalist economy is doing so hot...
or maybe the Chinese billionaires were just creating racism in America, and that's where all that money went
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/economist-found-2416-trillion-when-she-tallied-cost-of-racial-bias/ar-BB1acPA7
Maybe black people they just need reeducation and forced relocation to where better jobs are.
are you saying that something like a PRC-style developmental outreach initiative would definitely work within areas of the US where poverty and systemic legally codified racism & capitalism have left centuries of scars? that's actually not that bad of an idea, though I disagree with your cynical & lib characterization. really reaching
It’s more like using the government to scoop up specifically Q Anon/ facsist brainwormed people and giving them education and bringing them out of impoverished rural towns to places with better wages and working more productively with the same effort because of developed labor skills. We would definitely hate that and call it “cultural genocide” 🙄
-2 Child Policy for whites
white people have no culture lmao take all the white supramcists improve their lives and educate them sounds great
Except in this case the "q-anon" people happen to compose an ethnic minority.
Which part is a reach?
where you compare PRC's actual outreach and socioeconomic development to USA who has literally waged racist and genocidal campaigns against both Black & Indigenous
not to mention the ACTUAL comparison to be made which is America's Global War on Terror... lol
you have nothing
Canada did too.
Infamously via forced education.
All you have is weird whataboutism where you pretend that I support any of those things.
every advanced country on Earth has some form of mandatory schooling lol... what are you talking about?
adult education & deradicalization is only bad if the PRC does it? but the fact that the One Child Policy only applies to Han families in Xinjiang means that cultural genocide is occurring? what are you talking about?
What percentage of Uyghurs does the Chinese government consider radicalized?
Regular massive terror attacks in one's country tend to be a sign action is necessary. I'm sure the Chinese imams who support such programs are just puppets, and education is just a ploy by the devious Asiatics of course
Does this trust of the state extend to things like the Patriot act?
Are you a fucking anarchist lmao? The fact that you'd ask for me to spell out the difference is childish and almost certainly in bad faith.
'State do thing? Oh really? Have you heard of other state that do other thing'
You're wasting everyone's time
I don't trust broad counter-terror programs, sorry.
I'm talking about how attempting to forcibly erase a culture is a crime against humanity.
any actual proof such things have occurred, or just rabid anti-communist speculation & sensationalism?
You wouldn't accept proof because you're a zealot.
No, Adrian Zenz is... and I think you know that
He's not a zealot he's a crank :p
Massive gulf between believe the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation and being completely uncritical of China's actions.
No, Adrian Zenz is literally a zealot
he said that Jews have to accept Christ to be allowed into heaven. Zenz also said that he was sent to Earth by God to destroy Communism. Is that what you want too?
lol fair enough.
wait, did requiring engravings of knives purchased in these areas start before or after the fundamentalist sectarianism?
Hui Muslims also do not completely escape this terrifying inculcation. Which isn’t to say it’s some inherent feature of Islam, obviously not if these groups have co-existed for so long, but we can’t ignore the extent to which a recent narrative of “cultural genocide” gets slathered on these stories.
Hui Muslims are socio-linguistically & historically of Chinese descent. And they are also known to have Salafist & extreme sectarian groups moving in and out of these areas in Xinjiang. Hui muslims have been implicated in Heroin rings & moving those drugs to those Uyghur areas.
To what extent is Daesh and its outgrowths an encouragement for these groups elsewhere & why was the reporter A. Vltchek found dead under suspicious circumstances in Turkey?
Is this global nexus of oil money & militant funding & state surveillance not just a way to encircle China from Central Asia?
Well damn, better do some collective punishment then.
No, that's the thing, Hui muslims are also involved in criminal actions and stoking seditionist sentiment
You want Daesh in PRC? pretty weird ngl
Yes, and I want it here too obviously. That's why I'm not demanding Ilhan Omar be sent to a camp.
I just love terrorism.
education & economic development are not law enforcement issues in the same way as the United States’ War on Drugs & racist for-profit prison industry.
you can parse the lasting social benefits & fundamental uplifting aim of one over the other, i am sure of this.
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/china-releases-video-of-uighur-musician-disputing-reported-death
the way news & sensationalism & outright lies blend so perfectly into jingoism can’t be ignored. none of us are immune to propaganda, but I think we can comb through most of these claims about PRC and find very little real or irrefutable evidence.
Except you just implied it's part of counter-terror efforts.
yes, people who have access to gainful employment and are able to socially advance within society are far less likely to become violent seditionists, wouldn't you agree?
poverty is endemic to these regions, but the knife attacks coincide with the rise of CIA backed fundamentalist Salafism.
Sure.
Now do it while respecting human rights.
yes, giving people gainful employment and education and opportunities for advancement is literally guaranteeing autonomy & self-reliance & engendering human rights
Giving?
So these are all volunteers?
Yes
"According to the official Chinese version, during the past three years voluntary education has been imparted to the Muslim population of Xinjiang so that their extremist tendencies may be rectified."
According to the state the state didn't do bad things.
You can always trust the state.
Well, you posted New Strait Times... so you must trust them, right?
https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/2019/08/512399/uyghurs-freely-join-re-education-camps
hmm https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/24/china-cables-leak-no-escapes-reality-china-uighur-prison-camp
weird, that article you sent says
“The purpose [of the camp network] was to try to indoctrinate and change an entire population by channeling them through this dedicated system,” said Adrian Zenz, a leading researcher into the Xinjiang internment camps, who is senior fellow in China studies at the victims of communism foundation"
So you take that Guardian's interpretation of Zenz' lies as fact huh?
No, but it's hard to find a publication that put out the leaks without referencing that anti-communist wacko.
Doesn't change the contents of the leaks.
yes, if these speculations contain positive references to Zenz in any way, then they are suspect
The news is the leaks not the biased presentation.
Have you seen the provenance of these supposed "leaks"? Because, without actual verification of that information, it's just badly written Chinese script on paper.
Have you seen actual footage inside the schools?
Have you seen any physical evidence to suggest that people are being abused or culturally genocided or killed by PRC?
Because I don't think you've seen anything of that nature, you just take Adrian Zenz' sensationalism & anti-communism as unquestionable
and yes, US has racist extrajudicial Muslim torture camps LOL... I wonder wtf you're actually standing up for here?
Obviously we just need more of that.
Does it help to point that I'm
In other words I'm not standing up for anything except people I think deserve it.
sounds like you just need cope because USA is melting down and PRC is actually holding together and improving the lot of their people using ideologies & economic models that defy Western imperialism
you can try and harp on unsupported & biased Western propaganda on PRC. I will wait for actual evidence
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1160094.shtml this is from last year & seems to indicate things are improving from the perspective of government openness & goodwill
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47191952 this is also from last year and maybe passes the sniff-test for you here for “East vs. West media bias” maybe not idgaf
https://www.voanews.com/east-asia-pacific/china-muslims-work-change-perceptions-after-knife-attacks this is VOA, so it’s definitely tripe, but even it still was giving somewhat of an even-handed & in-depth perspective on the issues at play here in the Obama era
https://thediplomat.com/2014/10/chinese-salafism-and-the-saudi-connection/ this too gives nuance and offers wider connections to the general state of Islam globally. But it leaves out key connections between the “openness” reforms of Deng’s era & how these have always led to potentially dangerous Western & even extreme theocratic influences into the country
Anarcho-Dengism