I am hearing really scary things in the wake of the beheading of that teacher. Is Macron starting an all out persecution campaign against Muslims?
I'd especially appreciate input by French chapos.
The already bloated French police state is being expanded even further, and European SocDems are doing the soyface for Macron's anti-terror stance.
I remember Matt Christman saying that if Germany hadn't become Fascist, France was the next contender in one of his vlogs. All of the dumb shit I keep hearing from France makes me think they're all one bad day away from competing with the nazis for worst place first place
After WWII, the French Communists were getting quite influential, so the US used the Marshall plan as leverage to get them barred from government. I sometimes wonder what history would have looked like without the wave of reaction in Western Europe being supported by the US.
A big part of the reason the US dropped the bomb was to prevent that from happening. They didn't want the Soviets to have postwar control over Asia. If they had, we'd probably have a communist Korea, a communist Japan, a communist China, a communist Vietnam, a communist Cambodia... you get the point.
The countries that went fash/hard right were the ones lacking large empires. Britain and France had their colonies to brutalize/deescalate class conflict in the metropole. But definitely France had the same potential to go Fash-the 5th column is a big reason France capitulated so early/didn’t declare war on Germany sooner.
Post WW1 French politics was, to be blunt, w massive dumpster fire. While there was a huge far right movement there was also a huge leftist movement as well, that got bogged down by that most famous of Bear bugs, leftist infighting up until even the last Weeks before the Nazis took Paris. It’s really fascinating deep dive if you get the time.
Center left (?) Socialist Daladier stepped down as PM today in 1933, after compromising many socialist advances (40 hour week, Saturday as an off work day) because he understood what Hitler was up to, and knew the France was a creampuff. He wanted 3,000 warplanes, which might have dampened the Blitz or even prevented the attempt, but the banks wouldn't lend him the money because they were afraid of the very thing Daladier was working to prevent- war with Germany.
only wikipedia . But there's something about that photo of Daladier. For one thing, it's the only one I've seen where his hair is white, or grey. He's in need of a haircut, and his briefcase looks as if it's only got maybe two sheets of papier in it. He's wearing a double -breasted suit and what looks like, my god, a bowler. He's on a completely different wavelength than those other pols around him, and he's looking at the camera, as if he's looking into the future at us.
Not offering any more thoughts about the current-current situation, because I just think it's all fucked, the problem is insoluble, too complex to rollback decades of awful choices, and I definitively don't master the subject, but I can add bits of information without any sources because I want you to correct me (please) :
A majority of french people would want religion to disappear from the public life, vanish into the private space, banished from ever showing its head anywhere else than their homes and, especially, others. And among all that is Islam, the religion most removed from a majority of them, and at the same time at the heart of the culture of a substantial part of the population, unlike them. For them, it's the one they dislike the most because it's the most different from them, and a majority of the time, the strongest way it enters their lives, or at least that's how they see it, because they are so removed from it, are the murders.
Add to that the way that, decades in the making, like in most places in the world, basically the rich live in some neighborhoods, the poor live in others, and the descendants of immigrants live in yet other spaces (with strong intersections), people don't know each other, and what is most apparent to them are the confrontations they see on the television or the internet. You could put it as a white vs black vs [insert racist color here] issue, because as an anglo you identify yourself first as a color, and it's important to know what "race" is imposed onto you, even if it's a whole part of your culture and strengthened with time, and how some use it to manipulate you and all your friends since the beginnings of times and since the first man feared another because he saw difference as a danger or a tool to use, but I prefer to look at it as I put it. I know we're on an USian website, but anyway.
What the fuck do you do when the rich is actively physically separated from the poor, and of originally racist and classist acts muslims are further separated ? The consequence, and what a success, is that everyone lives not knowing who the "other" really is, what is its life, except one has the power and the other does not.
So here comes a murder in the name of the whole religion these people have at the heart of their culture, you don't know these people, they don't know you, all know this shit country is an imperialist state, and that might be one of the reasons you're here and these murders took place, because they hoarded the wealth and you ended up here generations after one of your ancestors made the choice to come here (I really am fucking historically illiterate please kill me). So here you are, separated from those others, that one guy who feels way more close to you and looks more like you in appearance just killed one of those fuckers that attacked that thing that is important to you, and you find yourself being shat at by those others living differently than you. And those others, they see you as an other too, but an other that looks like that guy that killed someone because of an act you think is natural in this country, true to what you believe in, that all religion brings only shit, and here you are being proved right. But you aren't, none of you are, and you wish you could be all nuked, and that fucking language has some useless rules you trip on everyday and socially you are put in your place by it, and what the fuck is that hole if I can't bring you all in it with me. Fuck you.
Anyway that was schizoposting.
by medieval standards the middle east in the golden age of islam was one of the best places to live in dude, idk where ur getting this from. like its not a fucked mess for no reason, blaming islam seems kinda idealist. ngl i would take a world where the mongols invaded us (japan) instead of sacking baghdad any day.
Turns out historical materialism is a better view of history than just blind prejudice, who knew?
historical materialism = ignoring the present and instead arguing about medieval times
... for cis het men who were neither slaves nor unbelievers
also, nice cope using "medieval standards" to determine how nice islam is to it's people. we can't admit that every islamic country that exists today is horrible for women (like fucking horrible) because who gives a shit about brown women, am i right?
I think we're fucked and it's an insoluble problem.
How to rollback decades of shit choices ?
If you figure it out, I'd suggest rolling back a bit further to the Paris commune.
That begins by removing the Sacré-Coeur.
What I worry about is that if a commune is put into place, that won't solve any of the problems that the people that would benefit from a commune have all other the country, or even just the region. You really have to do an act at the heart of the life of a physical and important place to change anything, and most people here don't want anything to happen that would slightly restructure their lives.
A more accessible "commune", and that does not have any definitive definition, is the community you build in the mountains with your pals, removed from the urban parts of the country, right after all your neighborhoods called you hippies. It's even worse, because even if you're open, you're just fleeing, and not solving anything. But you're sure it's gonna work. You know how to make it work. You just have to throw your whole life at it. Decentralize, decentralize, because the internet couldn't save your collective asses with the way of the nomad, so you do it for real how you can.
And here comes the most pressing matter : you know what the machine is, you know its cogs, you know you can remove yourself from it and do "better". But everyone in the history of the history of this shit species already knew that all along, and many did that, but what did they achieve ? Sacrifice and good for themselves, and still hell for the others. So there you are, wishing you could just rollback and do it better. Because you don't know shit.
extremely dont care for these inter-thread squabbles. just dont next time.
Bruh I aggressively don't give a fuck if what some random nobody on some other thread 60 people read on some god forsaken leftist shitpost forum was a bad take and I will continue to not care, sorry. It's better to not make every thread a weird esoteric struggle sesh between 5 people.
Good, make your own thread. I understand what your issue is but I also don't think anthm17 (from the posts I saw so far) is really islamophobic, even though approving the projections is a bad take. I think their issue is just that they are interpreting some of the posts people make as implicitly blaming the teacher for getting killed.
In that same thread that user was decrying how europeans behaved to Muslims historically and how even Arabs who conquered parts of Europe treated them much better... I'm not sure what islamophobia means to you but, like, I really don't think that person is saying that because they are islamophobic, but because they just have a shit take on this subject.
none of these comment posts, nor my context links out of my own bio ever actually link to the comment here, it's gotta be some kind of bug. it always just takes me to the top of the whole post.
that said, i think antm17 is missing a lot of the nuance. he's over simplifying the situation, but still has a point in that you shouldn't get your head cut off for literally doing your job, that job is as a teacher in literally a class about freedom of speech.
yes, rather tasteless, also quite relevant to the topic, especially considering the local relevance.
at that point it becomes a much larger conversation about what makes up a religion, how willing you are to adhere to rules of said religion, especially as a non adherent, who gets to make up rules of a religion, etc.
if you're trying to force me to adhere to a religion, i would say that you can fuck right off yourself.
i personally am not for blatantly trying to be bigoted and going about anything that would put someone in a position where they feel they are being blasphemous, but when you have a fucking rule in your religion that puts its adherents to the point where they are forced to murder over cartoons, i think that personally is a shitty fucking stupid fucking rule.
fascism is when you defend killing people for not adhering to your rules
by saying fuck nuance and attacking the idea of defending the position of free speech.
criticizing aspects of a religion is not being a racist piece of shit. first off, lots of different races adhere to islam, second, if you can't criticize something over fear of getting your head cut off, that's a shitty rule, and to defend it is fascism. fuck you.
that's not what we're arguing, we're arging about a teacher getting their head cut off for teaching a class about freedom of expression, fuck you.
that said, i think antm17 is missing a lot of the nuance. he’s over simplifying the situation, but still has a point in that you shouldn’t get your head cut off for literally doing your job, that job is as a teacher in literally a class about freedom of speech.
criticizing a rule in islam doesn't make you islamophobic. criticizing the law that "if you're gay in Christianity you should go to hell" doesn't make you christophobic.
you didn't joke about a lack of nuance, you threw nuance to the fucking wolves and proceeded on with your bullshit
your bullshit being lumping anyone who criticizes any aspect of something into being "____-phobic"
This is about calling out racism and islamaphobia. Don’t make it about you being “forced to adhere to a religion” whatever the fuck that means. It’s about showing respect for a persecuted minority.
yes, you said that in regard to fair nuanced criticism. you lumped it in with islamophobia. you have shitty politics from an egotistical idpol perspective. fuck you. hard.
I literally want the french state and its media to stop persecuting muslims.
me too.
If you want that persecution to continue, please continue this thread.
this is where you are fucked. criticizing cutting off a teachers head and how it pertains to a stupid rule doesn't promote the continuation of the previous position. this is where you're missing the nuance, and where you become fucking wrong.
i just don't think that the original user we were having this conversation about meant anything besides that it's not cool to cut teachers heads off for teaching about free speech, and you lumped him in with being an islamophob, probably due to your passion of hatred of bigotry.
that's agreeable to me, and i think a fucking country should definitely take the same position that we take on it, but i can at least recognize that it's a stupid fucking rule in the first place, and the mention of how stupid it is should go hand in hand with the discussion in the first place.
because that dumb shit rule that old dudes care still leads to the teachers getting their heads cut off, which is fucked.
it needs to be mentioned that that shit should be changed, that the extremists are wrong in doing that shit in the first place, as well as people who antagonize them in first place.
and lumping everyone who criticizes it into being an islamphob even contributes to the perpetuation of the extremism in the first place.
extremists/fundamentalists should be criticized right along side bigots, because they're both shitty takes.
because you began by attacking someone who criticized it, and then attacked even the idea of a nuanced position and looking at the different perspectives of the conversation.
i'm not using anything as 'evidence' and i'm coming to a better understanding of your position, but you need to explain clearly how you feel about shit, as in
the mention of how stupid it is should go hand in hand with the discussion in the first place.
You do realise that racists look funny at Muslims not because they're Muslims, right? A dark skinned devout Catholic would get just as many dirty looks and slurs coming their way. A knucklehead like yourself mindlessly promoting the sanctity of Islam here is awfully patronising to Arabs and Africans, since it heavily implies that Islam is somehow inherent to them and is the only legit way for them to find solidarity and fight oppression.
