This is the height of liberal "analysis", not a hint of rigor or knowledge of the factional politics or geopolitical pressures that determine what choices are viable for leaders to make
No, instead it's just vibes based politics arrived at thru bullshit personal intuition
"I DoNt tRuST tHaT gUY" give me a fuckin break, say something thats even half way incisive
Not the person above but dehumanizing enemies is unnecessary unless your essential message is hate and genocide. Fascists aren’t monsters from another dimension, they are regular-ass people. That’s part of what makes it so fucked up. My leftism is bound up with humanism and I don’t want to lose my humanity in order to save humanity.
I understand your viewpoint and there's nothing wrong with that humane approach, but I'd be a hypocrite if I pretended that spoke to me, it honestly doesn't
I'm genuinely not interested in humanizing fascists, the various plans people like that have for people like me prevents me from taking a proposition like that seriously
Fascists in power and in the streets might as well be "monsters from another dimension" for the effect they have on my life and the people I care about, I can't afford to subscribe to any philosophy that could potentially diminish that crucial recognition
I think we agree on the important part, fascists have to be taken seriously. I don't endorse kid gloves in dealing with fascists. I just feel that calling them maggots is thought-terminating, it is a crude imitation of the fascists' own language, it does not actually do anything except to encourage fascist-like thought patterns even if nominally leftist. Fascists provide enough material to prove themselves vile; we don't need to hand them any possible claim of victimization on the basis of "free speech" or whatever usual nonsense works to get liberals to defend them since after all, through liberal eyes, all ideology is sacred, only action can be immoral.
In general, it is a choice and definite strategy to dehumanize people. There is no dichotomy of humanize or dehumanize. They continuously dehumanize themselves through their ideology, it is sufficient to point to the ideology and let it speak for itself.
I'm sorry but that's basically a dedux of respectability politics, I'm really not interested in even accepting a debate framework like that because it's fundamentally a pre-compromised position, since your opponent will always define what is and isn't respectable, hence your worry of "we don't need to hand them any possible claim of victimization"
Fascists also did not invent the concept of political insults or caricatures, and my use of insults sends a signal to lurking fash in this online space (and they are lurking) the same way a baseball bat in the hands of a bartender sends a signal to any fash scouting for potential friendly gathering locations
And most importantly dehumanization of enemies alone is not the basis of fascist language, instead it's the racialization of enemies thru class collaboration that defines the fascist lexicon
If I wanted to "imitate" fascist language, I'd be using racial slurs instead of just a figurative comparison to insects
your opponent will always define what is and isn't respectable, hence your worry of "we don't need to hand them any possible claim of victimization"
This is a really good point. I shouldn't have put so much emphasis on perception in the last comment.
Racialization is a more succinct term for what I don't want. While calling fascists maggots is not strictly a form of racialization (I don't think it is logically possible for an oppressor to be racialized), again it uses similar thought patterns, reduction of humans to some essential identity, on which basis to exterminate that race/group. I don't think this is a way of thought that should be encouraged. Fascists should be fought as the horrible people they are, not as caricatures, because that actually dilutes the reality of fascism. The idea more and more takes hold that fascist ideology is a result of a flawed brain, and not a problem with humanity more generally.
uses similar thought patterns, reduction of humans to some essential identity, on which basis to exterminate that race/group
no, it quite literally doesn't. fascists can renounce their beliefs and all of my ire falls away. I cannot renounce being trans or brown -- these are actually essential qualities. ideologies are not essential.
It is not bad faith to refuse to use hateful language. I don’t want to be hateful, and using terminology and manners of speech of the people who I oppose doesn’t sit right with me. And on a practical level I don’t think it helps the leftist cause in any way, more likely hurts it.
The fact you recognize that fascists could renounce their beliefs, to me implies you don’t truly view them as maggots, which is what I meant above.
fascist-like thought patterns even if nominally leftist
sorry, this is where you lost me. refusing to recognize the humanity of the people who wish to wipe me from the face of the earth is using fascist-like thought patterns? no, it's recognizing them as enemies who want me dead -- my only position on them is renounce your beliefs and stop attempting to build fascism or accept your death. this position cannot be equated with the fascist thought patterns because literally the only thing you have to do to prevent your death is walk away from fascism. I cannot walk away -- they wish me dead for who I am, my actual essence.
Look I agree with much of what you said but I also think you missed my point. I’m not asking for you to be nicer to the fascists or to show mercy. I’m not “clutching my pearls” as someone else accused me of, because I’m not defending the fascists. I get it because most leftists have been oppressed/bullied, and sometimes it feels good to flip it around for once. I’m not interested in policing the emotions of hurt people so I’ll probably stop engaging at this point.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree i dont think acknowledging their fundamental lack of humanity is "using their own manner of speech" I think it's pretty critical to understand thay what we're up against doesn't have what you would consider motivations and goals that align or even make sense in a broader society but maybe thats just me giving humans too much credit.
Biden has a long history of lying and other shady activities, yet you accept his narrative uncritically.
It is true that politicians are not always truthful. Unfortunately you have to educate yourself to determine what the lies are, not just pick a team and a set of lies to believe.
The part where the facutal statements became unfactual. If you don't trust someone you dont just go "everything they say is a lie", you investigate what they say (u less of course you're a gullible idiot, in which case you just believe what you're told by your own "good guys" that surely don't have an agenda and surely have never lied). You also do this with people you trust by the way.
I'm saying the national interests of the Russian Federation are not decided on the whims of an evil madman. And when you reduce them to a single person you fall into self blinding behaviors like completely ignoring a speech to the world about a nation's cause for war when determining that country's motivation for going to war.
You saw something like the wager mutiny happen and seriously think that absolutely no-one backed that because Putin would simply kill them all with his dictator mind powers rather then the country genuinely supporting him?
Buddy, if you wanna use Mao as a big scary incarnation of Evil, you're somehow even wronger (more wrong?) than your ukraine takes, which I almost want to admire.
Hitler, no. Mao, yes. Because Mao was amazing and Hitler was the first to introduce the concept of privatization, beloved of his fellow corporate puppets Biden, Trump, and many others.
Tens of thousands of Korean slave laborers died in those nuclear blasts my man. The USA has never given a fuck about helping anyone who wasn’t bourgeois. They dropped the bombs to warn the Soviets to stay out. Try to read history that wasn’t written by Nazi apologists.
Not even “to save your family.” His question was less than that. Would you kill those people, just to do something? No requirement that the action is effective, only that it demonstrate your protest against your situation.
The Japanese had been begging to surrender for six months—on one condition, that the emperor retain a ceremonial position. The USA granted this condition after the surrender because they didn’t actually care and thought that a fascist leader would be useful in fighting communism, which is also why they placed fascist collaborators in charge of South Korea, thereby leading directly to the Korean War.
Read the room bud. You walked smug as pig shit into our own house to smear your poop rhetoric all over the walls and we have been beyond hospitable. Either kindly go touch grass, or read something in good faith and reply as such.
Just because you lack the neurons to acquire a basic understanding of historical events, doesn't suddenly mean that those events arent complicated. But if you're so into people being sacrificed for the will of American capitalists, I suggest you go volunteer in Ukraine.
Japan was already ready to surrender on terms the US accepted after dropping the nukes
not only did the nukes kill thousands of Korean slaves in the two nuked cities but the US subsequently killed 20% of the Korean population, forcing the population underground into caves, during the Korean war just a couple of years later. they leveled virtually every city in order to prop up a brutal police regime - so miss me with this "what about the Koreans and Chinese" nonsense.
Hey there! I’ve read over your comments in this thread and they’re super interesting! There’s a few points you made I’d like to refute, but I’m at work at the moment and don’t have time to copy and paste it from my blog - take a look here and see what you think.
You're defending the US military killing three times as many civilians as Russia has killed in Ukraine in the entire Ukraine war ("The Russian numbers dwarf the Ukrainian figures, which the officials put at close to 70,000 killed and 100,000 to 120,000 wounded.") and calling us bad people for calling out you for being a disgusting war crime apologist who's defending murdering >200,000 thousand innocent women, children and men who were unfit for combat as well as tens of thousands of Korean POWs imprisoned in the two cities (it's worth noting that despite your claim that the Korean people supported the bombings both the DPRK and the South Korean government condemn the bombings nowadays due to how many Koreans were killed)
This might be hard for a genocial monster like you to understand but most victims of violence do not wish further violence upon others let alone mass violence on everyone they know and love to "make the pain stop." Those people would've preferred to actually be alive right now you fucking demon.
No, I would not kill thousands of innocent uninvolved people for no reason, knowing that it would have zero effect on my situation. Tbh, even if it would save my family, I’d struggle to kill 200,000 innocents (trolley problem).
Miss me with the “yes or no” smug loaded question.
It's already been explained to you that the nuclear bomb did not cause the surrender or end the war, it was just a show of power against the Soviet's, here's an article about it: https://web.archive.org/web/20150106195034/https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/ (internet archive link because the original is locked behind a pay wall)
Any argument that the bomb saved lives in the long run is either a lie or purposely ignorant, now on the other hand if you wanted to say that the Japanese civilians deserve it for not overthrowing their fascist government that's when comparisons to 9/11 come up (because it's the exact same argument that Bin Laden used)
I know you Americans are taught some wack-ass way of reading were you just learn to memorize the shape of words rather than the function of letters, but it's still surprising to see that your reading comprehension can be this bad
You were provided with more good faith responses than you deserve in your entire life, and yet you still come back to this smug thought-terminating cliche. Since you believe that citizens are responsible for the actions of their government, here's a suggestion:
Kill yourself.
How does q factual statement become unfactual, just because it was uttered by a liar? You know what you do when you distrust a powerful persons stated claims? You check them. If Donald Trump told the sky was blue, would you then think it was some other colour, or would you look up to check for yourself?
Didn't Putin say that he would only serve two terms as leader and not change the rules to keep power?
For some reason, I just don't trust that guy.
This is the height of liberal "analysis", not a hint of rigor or knowledge of the factional politics or geopolitical pressures that determine what choices are viable for leaders to make
No, instead it's just vibes based politics arrived at thru bullshit personal intuition
"I DoNt tRuST tHaT gUY" give me a fuckin break, say something thats even half way incisive
I recognize that username, it's the same person who defended dropping nukes on Japan over on Lemmygrad.
lmao of course, the opinions these maggots share are all stamped out of a DC think tank template
No matter what, the US state department is always right
Agree with everything you say, but let's not do that.
Respectfully but why? Is there a particular reason I shouldn't call a bunch of bootlicking fash "maggots"?
Not the person above but dehumanizing enemies is unnecessary unless your essential message is hate and genocide. Fascists aren’t monsters from another dimension, they are regular-ass people. That’s part of what makes it so fucked up. My leftism is bound up with humanism and I don’t want to lose my humanity in order to save humanity.
Edit: misgender corrected
I understand your viewpoint and there's nothing wrong with that humane approach, but I'd be a hypocrite if I pretended that spoke to me, it honestly doesn't
I'm genuinely not interested in humanizing fascists, the various plans people like that have for people like me prevents me from taking a proposition like that seriously
Fascists in power and in the streets might as well be "monsters from another dimension" for the effect they have on my life and the people I care about, I can't afford to subscribe to any philosophy that could potentially diminish that crucial recognition
I think we agree on the important part, fascists have to be taken seriously. I don't endorse kid gloves in dealing with fascists. I just feel that calling them maggots is thought-terminating, it is a crude imitation of the fascists' own language, it does not actually do anything except to encourage fascist-like thought patterns even if nominally leftist. Fascists provide enough material to prove themselves vile; we don't need to hand them any possible claim of victimization on the basis of "free speech" or whatever usual nonsense works to get liberals to defend them since after all, through liberal eyes, all ideology is sacred, only action can be immoral.
In general, it is a choice and definite strategy to dehumanize people. There is no dichotomy of humanize or dehumanize. They continuously dehumanize themselves through their ideology, it is sufficient to point to the ideology and let it speak for itself.
I'm sorry but that's basically a dedux of respectability politics, I'm really not interested in even accepting a debate framework like that because it's fundamentally a pre-compromised position, since your opponent will always define what is and isn't respectable, hence your worry of "we don't need to hand them any possible claim of victimization"
Fascists also did not invent the concept of political insults or caricatures, and my use of insults sends a signal to lurking fash in this online space (and they are lurking) the same way a baseball bat in the hands of a bartender sends a signal to any fash scouting for potential friendly gathering locations
And most importantly dehumanization of enemies alone is not the basis of fascist language, instead it's the racialization of enemies thru class collaboration that defines the fascist lexicon
If I wanted to "imitate" fascist language, I'd be using racial slurs instead of just a figurative comparison to insects
This is a really good point. I shouldn't have put so much emphasis on perception in the last comment.
Racialization is a more succinct term for what I don't want. While calling fascists maggots is not strictly a form of racialization (I don't think it is logically possible for an oppressor to be racialized), again it uses similar thought patterns, reduction of humans to some essential identity, on which basis to exterminate that race/group. I don't think this is a way of thought that should be encouraged. Fascists should be fought as the horrible people they are, not as caricatures, because that actually dilutes the reality of fascism. The idea more and more takes hold that fascist ideology is a result of a flawed brain, and not a problem with humanity more generally.
no, it quite literally doesn't. fascists can renounce their beliefs and all of my ire falls away. I cannot renounce being trans or brown -- these are actually essential qualities. ideologies are not essential.
Fascists as humans can renounce their beliefs. As maggots they cannot.
I'm not sure how to read this but bad faith and my only response is what I already said.
It is not bad faith to refuse to use hateful language. I don’t want to be hateful, and using terminology and manners of speech of the people who I oppose doesn’t sit right with me. And on a practical level I don’t think it helps the leftist cause in any way, more likely hurts it.
The fact you recognize that fascists could renounce their beliefs, to me implies you don’t truly view them as maggots, which is what I meant above.
sorry, this is where you lost me. refusing to recognize the humanity of the people who wish to wipe me from the face of the earth is using fascist-like thought patterns? no, it's recognizing them as enemies who want me dead -- my only position on them is renounce your beliefs and stop attempting to build fascism or accept your death. this position cannot be equated with the fascist thought patterns because literally the only thing you have to do to prevent your death is walk away from fascism. I cannot walk away -- they wish me dead for who I am, my actual essence.
Look I agree with much of what you said but I also think you missed my point. I’m not asking for you to be nicer to the fascists or to show mercy. I’m not “clutching my pearls” as someone else accused me of, because I’m not defending the fascists. I get it because most leftists have been oppressed/bullied, and sometimes it feels good to flip it around for once. I’m not interested in policing the emotions of hurt people so I’ll probably stop engaging at this point.
I'm not advocating genocide but I do hate them.
Why shouldn't I.
Can we please not do the "we have to respect the fascists humanity" here.
They've all posted a Facebook meme about shooting Trans people in the time you clutched your pearls.
I never said we need to respect the fascists or even be nice to them.
You can be mean to fascists without using their own manner of speech.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree i dont think acknowledging their fundamental lack of humanity is "using their own manner of speech" I think it's pretty critical to understand thay what we're up against doesn't have what you would consider motivations and goals that align or even make sense in a broader society but maybe thats just me giving humans too much credit.
If the fascists see others as bugs for existing, I will do the same to them
Bedbugs?
Someone cited a speech Putin gave.
I pointed out Putin has a long history of lying [and other shady activities]
What part confused you?
Biden has a long history of lying and other shady activities, yet you accept his narrative uncritically.
It is true that politicians are not always truthful. Unfortunately you have to educate yourself to determine what the lies are, not just pick a team and a set of lies to believe.
The part where the facutal statements became unfactual. If you don't trust someone you dont just go "everything they say is a lie", you investigate what they say (u less of course you're a gullible idiot, in which case you just believe what you're told by your own "good guys" that surely don't have an agenda and surely have never lied). You also do this with people you trust by the way.
Why did they cite Putin's speech? Did you ask? Did you engage in good faith?
Or did your brain just go, "that's a bad guy, now I don't have to listen and I should fight even more"?
I am once again begging you Marvel brained libs to recognize that Russia is a country not a guy in a costume.
Are you saying that Putin and Russia are indivisible?
I'm saying the national interests of the Russian Federation are not decided on the whims of an evil madman. And when you reduce them to a single person you fall into self blinding behaviors like completely ignoring a speech to the world about a nation's cause for war when determining that country's motivation for going to war.
So, you're saying the Russian Federation had a vote on the issue?
You saw something like the wager mutiny happen and seriously think that absolutely no-one backed that because Putin would simply kill them all with his dictator mind powers rather then the country genuinely supporting him?
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Buddy, if you wanna use Mao as a big scary incarnation of Evil, you're somehow even wronger (more wrong?) than your ukraine takes, which I almost want to admire.
Hitler, no. Mao, yes. Because Mao was amazing and Hitler was the first to introduce the concept of privatization, beloved of his fellow corporate puppets Biden, Trump, and many others.
And the point applies to them too.
ahem.
Strawman.
The SMO is overwhelmingly approved of in Russia
He's literally saying the opposite you dolt
Let's try operating at your level for a minute. Taking a stab at that good faith debate I always hear about from you libs.
Are you saying putin is the only person in Russia.
Wait shit that actually makes way more sense as a criticism than anything you've said I'll have to practice more.
This you doing apologia for the murder of 200,000 Japanese civilians and Korean POWs?
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I honestly think we're spending too much time and effort debating in good faith with libs.
They constantly bitch were all operating in bad faith, and then it's just this over and over again.
You ask them to explain themselves and they say some reprehensible shit.
More ppb.
Often it's not the ones arguing who come around; it's the ones reading along.
no more half measures walter
This right here. Imo, online arguments are for the third party audience more than the other person most of the time.
Agreed. I'm not the most articulate person, and seeing some of the takedowns of lib bullshit here really helps me find the words to express my views
Liberals aren't interested in learning anything at all.
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Tens of thousands of Korean slave laborers died in those nuclear blasts my man. The USA has never given a fuck about helping anyone who wasn’t bourgeois. They dropped the bombs to warn the Soviets to stay out. Try to read history that wasn’t written by Nazi apologists.
Not that I doubt you, but really tens of thousands of Korean slaves died from the nukes? I've never heard that before and it seems pretty significant.
APnews reports make claims of 20 000 other sources I saw in google range, some papers claim 30k or more
That's correct. Forced laborers put into Japanese industry as the war effort faltered. The nukes were intended for industrial cities.
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“Would you incinerate thousands of defenseless women and children to save your family?”
What a psychotic question holy shit
Not even “to save your family.” His question was less than that. Would you kill those people, just to do something? No requirement that the action is effective, only that it demonstrate your protest against your situation.
The libs are just as much bloodthirsty psychopaths as half the self admitted fascists.
But the libs act like they have the fucking moral high ground over you while defending it.
The Japanese had been begging to surrender for six months—on one condition, that the emperor retain a ceremonial position. The USA granted this condition after the surrender because they didn’t actually care and thought that a fascist leader would be useful in fighting communism, which is also why they placed fascist collaborators in charge of South Korea, thereby leading directly to the Korean War.
Yes, or no.
It's not that complicated.
Read the room bud. You walked smug as pig shit into our own house to smear your poop rhetoric all over the walls and we have been beyond hospitable. Either kindly go touch grass, or read something in good faith and reply as such.
Just because you lack the neurons to acquire a basic understanding of historical events, doesn't suddenly mean that those events arent complicated. But if you're so into people being sacrificed for the will of American capitalists, I suggest you go volunteer in Ukraine.
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Japan was already ready to surrender on terms the US accepted after dropping the nukes
not only did the nukes kill thousands of Korean slaves in the two nuked cities but the US subsequently killed 20% of the Korean population, forcing the population underground into caves, during the Korean war just a couple of years later. they leveled virtually every city in order to prop up a brutal police regime - so miss me with this "what about the Koreans and Chinese" nonsense.
dude you got owned and outed as a racist , just take the L and make a new username
I'm racist for thinking Burmese lives are equal to Japanese lives?
Please, tell me nore.
we already had a masterpost on this very topic, not debating racists.
Stop sending me pictures of your mom.
lemm.ee is not sending their best folks.
Looking forward to another "we need to defederate" post tomorrow
Here's the crazy thing.
They actually are.
How dare you! Mods! Mods! Ban this poster! They’re too strong!
He got us, everyone
Lmao that's the most basic schoolyard comeback there is. What are you, 12? What's next? "I know what you are, but what am I?"
Hey there! I’ve read over your comments in this thread and they’re super interesting! There’s a few points you made I’d like to refute, but I’m at work at the moment and don’t have time to copy and paste it from my blog - take a look here and see what you think.
Have a good day!
You're defending the US military killing three times as many civilians as Russia has killed in Ukraine in the entire Ukraine war ("The Russian numbers dwarf the Ukrainian figures, which the officials put at close to 70,000 killed and 100,000 to 120,000 wounded.") and calling us bad people for calling out you for being a disgusting war crime apologist who's defending murdering >200,000 thousand innocent women, children and men who were unfit for combat as well as tens of thousands of Korean POWs imprisoned in the two cities (it's worth noting that despite your claim that the Korean people supported the bombings both the DPRK and the South Korean government condemn the bombings nowadays due to how many Koreans were killed)
What the hell is this question? Is my 8 year old bro being deployed to the beaches of fucking tokyo?
This might be hard for a genocial monster like you to understand but most victims of violence do not wish further violence upon others let alone mass violence on everyone they know and love to "make the pain stop." Those people would've preferred to actually be alive right now you fucking demon.
No, I would not kill thousands of innocent uninvolved people for no reason, knowing that it would have zero effect on my situation. Tbh, even if it would save my family, I’d struggle to kill 200,000 innocents (trolley problem).
Miss me with the “yes or no” smug loaded question.
Dropping the bomb didn't force Japanese surrender. It just ensured that surrender was to the Americans rather than Soviets.
It's good that the USA didn't employ unit 731 to kill hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese/Burmese/Koreans after WW2. That would have been terrible.
The nukes were definitely dropped to save those people.
Wait what
I knew about the nazis BUT FUCKING UNIT 731?!
Chicken feathers on Korean villages.
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So, you couldn't actually answer 'yes' or 'no.'
Also, I don't think using 9/11 as an example of ending a war is really all that smart.
It's already been explained to you that the nuclear bomb did not cause the surrender or end the war, it was just a show of power against the Soviet's, here's an article about it: https://web.archive.org/web/20150106195034/https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/ (internet archive link because the original is locked behind a pay wall)
Any argument that the bomb saved lives in the long run is either a lie or purposely ignorant, now on the other hand if you wanted to say that the Japanese civilians deserve it for not overthrowing their fascist government that's when comparisons to 9/11 come up (because it's the exact same argument that Bin Laden used)
I know you Americans are taught some wack-ass way of reading were you just learn to memorize the shape of words rather than the function of letters, but it's still surprising to see that your reading comprehension can be this bad
You were provided with more good faith responses than you deserve in your entire life, and yet you still come back to this smug thought-terminating cliche. Since you believe that citizens are responsible for the actions of their government, here's a suggestion: Kill yourself.
How does q factual statement become unfactual, just because it was uttered by a liar? You know what you do when you distrust a powerful persons stated claims? You check them. If Donald Trump told the sky was blue, would you then think it was some other colour, or would you look up to check for yourself?
i honestly don't know