I am traumogenic (trauma created/clinical DID) plural system. It is highly likely that I never had a "core personality" that I was born as and instead have always had either an infant mental state or multiple personalities. (During the time most babies begin to form a coherent personality, I formed several. It is possible that not every system forms like this but highly like I did)
Every time I've felt I was singular, I've experienced mental walls, amnesia and other DID symptoms. If someone could do a "I'm singular ama" that'd be cool because I have questions too. :)
Do your different personalities have different politics? Do sometimes your other personalities go "God dammit, they were shitposting on chapo.chat again weren't they?"
Also I'm singular, so happy to answer stuff if you'd like.
Good question! So alters (and the people you see up "front"/as hosts are also alters. It is extremely rare to meet a person who has either integrated or is being fronted by a "core" as host for DID systems. OSDD systems work a little different depending on if they are type A or B but sometimes OSDD is a catch all for DID systems who don't match the diagnosis criteria exactly) can certainly have different politics and systems communication is important here. Some alters can also be coded as being younger or older than the age of the body/brain. I had an alter talk about how cool a monarchy would be....she was coded as being 13! That was a conversation we had to have. (She certainly wasn't an actual reactionary, she just had kinda checked out of the real world when the body was around that age and didn't get a real education until system communication increased.) We've had people in the system not understand somethings about how the world works in other ways due to them being "traumaholders" but with pretty much all alters, you slowly engage them and introduce them into the present in a gentle way. I don't think we have a single Biden supporter among us besides maybe the one who was taught she wasn't allowed to have any opinion ever. (We're working on helping her/us with over coming that)
:sankara-salute: Hell of a job radicalizing your alters, that's pretty lit. Imagine it's a lot of work to try and create some cohesive political agreements between alters but that's amazing that y'all have been able to do it.
Thank you, this is much appreciated. This is actually standard and clinical recommended treatment of DID and many systems also do similar things outside of a clinical context. In the book "Got Parts? An insider's guide to DID" (might have gotten the title a bit off but Google should fix that), the book recommends daily internal meetings and check ins. The goal of many systems is not to become one personality but to have internal agreements and communication based on consensus. In some ways, organizing "inside people" is easier than organizing outside people. It's not a walk in the park, especially for survivors of extreme abuse and I REALLY have to know my theory to explain it to the others.
Yeah the system analogy seems really helpful! Almost like you're running an automonous collective where no one alter can possibly control everything or be relied upon for everything. I imagine that there are seriously helpful lessons all of us can apply from those with DID when dealing with organizing communities!
I strongly agree that singular organizers have a lot to learn from functioning DID systems. Though, there are some major gaps. Like, some systems have internal mirrors of abusers. The alter acting as this mirror is not the literal abuser, but the cognitive system creates this mirror in an attempt to predict what the real abuser is going to do and bully the system before the real abuser can. These alters can be reformed into protectors much much easier than an externally abusive person can be reformed. For DID systems, the task is to deeply internalize that what they have in their mind is not the literal abuser or a weird thought, but a very confused and wounded alter. Embracing an external abuser as one would embrace an internal introject would be very dangerous. Forgiveness practices are healthy and safe for systems but dangerous for all survivors when applied to external relations.
That's so interesting that your system creates almost sock puppet abusers to practice protecting themselves. Thanks for sharing!
It's an extremely common thing. In clinical literature, these are called persecutors and they are sentient. They can also be reformed. When reformed they tend to be some of the most protective members of the system. I actually don't have many conventional persecutors and they don't come out often. I mentioned this because I think it is the easiest area for an organizer to cause harm when trying to apply DID treatment strategies to organizing. Many survivors are pressured to let external family abusers back into their lives. With internal persecutors because they are inherently part of the psyche, you cannot and should not banish them. They also have a different capacity for harm than an external abuser. So, the whole "Awww...you're hurt, I'll forgive you" can sometimes work for an internal meeting but can potentially fatal when applied to external abusers. (Unfortunately, systems can also be abusers of external people and if a person is being abused by a system then the same protocols apply as being abused by a singular person)
For the shit posting, we have an alter who thinks we should have learned calc and other higher maths by now. There is another alter in the system who used to compulsively read tumblr blogs that affirmed one of her identifies and the validity of a trauma we experienced. Others in the system got annoyed whereas others adapted their joking (shitposting but make it clinical) to the interests of this alter. She really wasn't getting that support irl, so that got her invested in these online communities. I think our system has been helped enough by mutual aid and screwed over enough by institutions (Paging Jennifer Freyd and her work on institutional betrayal) that the system views shitposting as a valid means of socializing.
How do relationship i.e friendships work? You mentioned you would get flack for hanging with people who were dangerous does the opposite also work? Like say if someone is a safe good person will you get encouragement to continue hanging with them. Does a good first impression spill over?
Also thank you for doing this ama, if you have any questions in return I'll answer as honestly as possible.
Edit Also feel free to correct me if I say anything wrong, I really don't know what I'm doing but am willing to learn and try not to repeat the same mistake.
Depends on how close an alter is to "front" (how present they are of current reality) Some alters are stuck in reoccurring severe flashbacks, so they can't really give opinions. Some systems try to engage with their external relationships as a whole and others have different approaches. Alters who are not the front people can take a liking to outside people. There can be conflicts as to if a person is good or bad.
Is there any media that you feel comes close to portraying this correctly?
Not sure off the top of my head. There is a Hulu docuseries called The Many Faces Of Jane people seem to like and that I might throw down the 1.99 a month Hulu black Friday deal to watch. I actually really treasure when media touches on these topics in a poetic way, but I'm drawing mental blanks this moment on this.
The many faces of Jane I'll check it one day. I had some examples in mind that I wanted to ask about but didn't know if it would be uncouth to start asking about my favorite shows or not. I don't know if singular writers, I think that's the term right, managed to portray it correctly. Like I'm willing to discard anything preconceived notions I have. You mentioned a book earlier that I wanna check out now.
There is an example I wanna ask about. One is about Jojo part 5 specifically the main antagonist so spoilers. I heard a cool theory before that I'll link now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-zyphBKETI
spoiler
The gist of it is that trauma caused a split, Doppio seems to be younger than Diavolo as represented with how Doppio looks much younger. Diavolo seems like a bastard but is protective of Doppio. Doppio does not seem aware of Diavolo and talks to him via phone or any object that can act as a phone.
I don't know if you got any weeb in ya and was reluctant to ask. I also realize that portraying this in this context might be problematic.
Also, DID isn't caused by one time severe trauma. It is caused by repeated trauma that cannot be escaped by very young children and if slavery, cult abuse, child soliders or other extremes of the extreme are involved then you get a poly fragmented system. The situation mentioned in that video would not cause DID.
Thanks for clearing this up. I'm starting to see why you had a blank earlier since this be complex. I have two other example in mind but I think you answered a lot with this response. Been reading and rereading what you wrote slowly wrapping my head around it.
Ah, so this character doesn't seem to be inherently offensive because what seems to be depicted is a fantasy type of possession as opposed to DID/OSDD. Now the video is done by a person who really does not know what they they are talking about, like at all. This person used Erikson's work as a frame of reference as opposed to anything from the ISSTD. The age range of the trauma origin seems to be starting at 12 which is another "hell no" for DID/OSDD. (Things like possession narratives and "tulpas" may vary. I don't want to get into those here because one topic at a time and also this is a fantasy work) The cut off age for forming DID may actually be 6-8. 12 is way out of the question unless there is another major neurological thing going on that would make the 12 year old cognitively in a much lower range.
The theory most references for DID is actually the theory of structural disassociation and that theory has come under increased scrutiny because one of the founders of it just lost his license to practice forever because he was found guilty of using this to severely torture a patient with DID. So um...people are kinda doing a double take on this guy's work. (He wasn't the sole founder of the theory) There is a video from Power to The Plurals talking about how this theory is ableist in the eyes of the Stronghold System. I'm not sure what I think of that claim tbh. I need to do more research but given the severe abuse that occurred, I needed to mention this.
In DID there is no "original vs split" all members of a DID system are alters, equally so with the possible exception of fragments in poly fragmented DID systems but only because they integrate so easily and only contain small pieces of cognition. They aren't not people, they just merge successfully easily. (Alters merging, fusing and blending is a thing)
Typically a clinical would frame things as Apparently Normal Parts vs Emotional Parts. This is a binary I actually can't relate to. Allison Miller, who worked with extreme abuse survivors (...Think cultic abuse) wrote in her book "Becoming Yourself" how this binary didn't make sense for her clients.
"Parts" language also wasn't originally invented for DID and people with BPD and CPTSD can explain experience fragments and parts. Some alters will FIGHT that terminology. There is also "family systems therapy" where every human is thought to have parts... But family system's therapists have been known to "nope" out of treating poly fragmented DID systems. I have a book on "easy ego state interventions" that uses parts language and also the popularity of pop Jungian writings and "neo shamanism" also shows that sometimes "parts" as a concept can help people
I appreciate all these posts a ton. they helped me learn something about myself.
The cut off age for forming DID may actually be 6-8. 12 is way out of the question unless there is another major neurological thing going on that would make the 12 year old cognitively in a much lower range.
this part is especially interesting for me. my traumatic experiences began around age 9 or 10 but your descriptions of alters and fronting actually resonate with me as, while I definitely don't have anything near the same severity category as DID, I did have at least one... something... separate from the... something else... that dealt with reality, for a time, and there are perhaps more pieces I'm less aware of. my transition has helped me mostly reintegrate but reading this thread made me realize that there's more complexity still here than I'd realized. I don't know, I've never really thought about this in these terms before and I'll have to reprocess some experiences to be sure.
I'll check out the podcast you recommended, for sure.
Easy Ego State Interventions might be a helpful text as well. One of the good things about the Plural Association and the Hearing Voices movement is that they are open to people without a diagnosis and have a broader inclusion of experiences beyond DID/OSDD.
Hope that helps. Also the cut off age is debated.
When did you figure out you were plural? What sort of things made you realize that your brain was operating a bit differently than most other people?
I used to think it was an exclusively spiritual thing. I've been long socially viewed as somehow different. What finally broke the denial for me as having my alters get FURIOUS at me for inviting a person who ended up being dangerous (who is also a system) to live with us. I also had an extremely negative experience with other plural systems years ago but didn't want to accept that I was like them because of how dangerous and harmful the experience was. Thankfully, I found out that there are many many many systems out there and recieved coaching/support from other systems who have not caused violence to me
We're still very much in a place with unintentional switching, trauma holders switching out and having flashbacks and even fights for "front" occur. We used some of our stimulus money to buy some expensive books made for clinical practice and recovery to help with this. We took a coaching course with the system that hosts "Many Minds on the Issue" podcast that helped us get to the notion of becoming a collective system. There is also the Plural Association, which has a pdf on "how to become a collective system" Those resources are run by people who have way more experience being aware and in communication with their systems then we do. I also have a radical friend group who helps talk to people in the system and gently questions their worldviews and gets thinking about how these work and why. Luna Oi's series on thinking dialectically has been also very helpful to our system. The clinical books also help a lot. It's a lot of work but it's better than the state I was previously in, which felt like being walled off from my own mind and involved getting "passive influence" as opposed to communication.
Sure, fighting for front can actually be very non violent but is disorienting and other times can be protective in nature but pretty dramatic. (To give a general non personal example, one member of a system may wish to self harm and another be like "Nope" and essentially will themselves to take front in an emergency)
For me, I actually had a fight for front tonight while doing this thread. One of us was having fun answering the questions because they really enjoy organizing and education work, another wanted to go to a zoom movie night and another or possibly the former didn't want to attend the movie night because any content around Romcoms upsets them deeply. So, there was a lot of disorientation and a mix of "I'm excited for this film" and "I hate this" feelings of bitterness. (Which might come from a third alter because writing this now I don't feel that but also I'm not currently scheduled to watch a RomCom. So I'm in the clear.)
Often times fight for front can be like, one alter has a hobby or interest and they want to have fun but another one objects for some reason. So what happens is internal disharmony. Like, one alter might win at getting the body to, let's say a cafe but the alter who does the social communication might be visibly miffed at being there and want to leave but weirdly feels drawn to staying. It can send major "I am here against my will" vibes to an observant outsider. Other alters can like, send unpleasant emotions or even internally bullying another for having interests.
Thank you. I'm actually working on a platformist project for Volcel atm. (Unironically because my DID recovery at this point basically requires it and I've been having a hard time finding healthy resources on this and getting my support in things like finding affordable anti capitalist housing supportive of said needs.)
Some gives names and some don't. Some systems may be reluctant to share names because the names may be directly linked to a trauma and other systems advocate strongly for people to use the names of their system members. How the alters in my system got their names is a good question. I had thought that I may have named them but the more I increase communication and decrease amnesiac barriers, the more I see how that notion was likely clinical grade "host"/front person not understanding things.
Like, I thought I named one alter after a parody song that they kept referencing to show how badass they thought they were. "Okay fine, you want to keep playing the X song? You can be X now!" Which I thought was kinda funny but then I realized that this alter may have already claimed that name and were using song to communicate that or maybe the name did stick from a song. Either way, they respond to that name now so it works.
How does gender identity / sexuality work for you? I don't know if this is an inappropriate question.
Well, I made a sincere Volcel thread in the mental health community. So there's that. We seem to have one orientation but different ways of perceiving it. However partnered sex is presently not healthy or safe for us. It can cause involuntary switching and other problems. Other systems talk about having mixed orientations. We don't seem to have that. BDSM is extremely harmful to us and keeping us safe from that trigger has prevented us from getting cheaper rent from queer international urban communities. (Basically we can't live in a situation where people talk about that in common spaces or else flashbacks and involuntary switching. As in, another alter takes control of front) Other systems can have healthy partnered sex and we're proud to admit that we at this point in history cannot and should not.
Hmmm... So sometimes system can get triggered by seeing depictions of DID but also, given that DID is a trauma based disorder and things like family systems therapy work so damn well for singular people too, I think that your premise is interesting. For ethical publication, maybe add an author's note or an introduction that explains that this content is a fantasy but that it does take inspiration from a real condition, maybe add some resource information and explain that this content may be triggering for some people and that it's okay to disengage and maybe discourage people from making it an assigned reading.
I think that a world where many people are systems is way less offensive than the movies where a highly dangerous person is shown having DID. Things like subjective experiences if possession, gender fluidity, Internal Family Systems, rapid life changes, OSDD, the idea of helping spirits etc all exist. Dissassocation is a major part of human psychology and people with DID just have an extreme verison of it. Non clinical plurality can also potentially exist but that can cause internet fighting that can deeply upset a lot of people. (It is an important topic to respectfully explore but not on this thread, that's not me/my circumstances) So a world where half the people are systems makes vastly more sense than a world where only deeply criminal people are systems.
neat. if you have any questions for me I have DID but I don't have multiple personalities per se
If you don't mind sharing, how does the DID manifest?
so i got it from ptsd and an extreme trauma scenario when i was a kid and one when i was an adult. for me when i dissociate, my mind blanks, i get super confused feeling, colors wash away from my vision, and i cant seem to hold a rational conversation whatsoever. my emotions go everywhere and i cant really coherently process anything. if i dissociate while driving, i usually call a friend or family to come pick me up because its too dangerous for me to drive like that. if i dissociate while talking to someone i tell them sorry i cant continue the conversation and i go and try to chill, which sometimes means i try to play a video game but most times it involves me staring at a wall a lot or holding onto my boyfriend if hes available
Thank you for sharing. This reminds me of some experiences I've had. DID diagnosis requires there to be another personality but also CPTSD is very real (I have it and it is often if not always co morbid with DID. ) There might be a chance there is really poor internal communication. (Which is common and a way of being created to survive. If communication is extremely bad, it isn't a moral failing but a sign that communication HAD to be extremely bad in order for a system to survive.) It could also be that there is a condition going on that isn't DID but is an extremely severe dissoaciative disorder. What you wrote does sound extremely relatable to me.
I've had clinicians say they weren't even going to attempt to diagnosis me during the pandemic because they wanted to see my switches in person. A lot of diagnostic tests by specialists are very centered around having them witness a switch or more in a clinical setting and with amnesia present for the switch. Usually they recommend internal communication efforts as a way to reduce "lost time" and overall adverse symptoms.
specifically its related to depersonalization so its more my personality gets erased for a bit. i got diagnosed with it at my psychiatrist office because it would happen regularly because discussing details of my trauma can trigger it sometimes, but it also has seemingly random triggers as well.
Also just to clarify, my reasons for sharing that was that I was concerned you may have had a not good or well trained therapist. (I don't know you or your treatment history so I can't say) Like, this sounds like DID in some regards but not completely in others and therapists can sometimes discourage DID diagnosed patients from talking to each other, which can create circumstances that aren't good for patient self advocacy. (Talking to others with DID and plurality can sometimes disorient me if they are like, really not understanding the world at all in but largely the benefits have been major) Depersonalization is a big part of DID but treatment for DID that is clinically accepted by the ISSTD involves directly working with an alter that can communicate back. These are intense symptoms you're describing and ones known to occur in patients with severe dissoaciative disorders. (Which the ISSTD also works with beyond DID/OSDD) Basically from my knowledge of the clinical side of things, I'm a bit concerned that there might be an issue with either the diagnosis or the treatment plan. I can't advise or comment further and if I happen to be incorrect, I hope that it can be understood that I've both seen and heard of severely mismanaged DID and non DID cases many times and that this concern stems from wanting to make sure you are an empowered client/patient and know that you have recourse if the therapy is in fact not what it needs to be because so often DID and other intense disassociative trauma survivors don't know we have recourse/support. There is a podcast called the System Speak podcast made by a system who has a PHD in a related field and has many guests on who talk about various severe dissoaciative disorders. The ISSTD website has a ton of resources for both clinicians and patients. (International Society for Study of Trauma and Dissassocation) To be clear, this is all information and resources I'd want people to know in general and I do not know you or your circumstances. This information is also for others reading this who might need this or know someone who does.
Basically "It's awesome if the treatment plan you have is working and makes sense, if it doesn't then here's some potentially empowering resources"
its DID its just a subtype called depersonalization, no i dont have an alter just it all goes away and i become nothing. my hands dont feel like my own, everything feels fake and gray, my senses become dulled, you could break a bone and i wouldnt feel it, i become very mellow and still and unable to form coherent thoughts. happens randomly. cptsd has an opposite effect for me, i become hyperaware of my surroundings, pace, and i flip the fuck out and have definite triggers and crazy vivid flashbacks that mostly deal with bodily sensation.
Comrade, I'm not your therapist and I'm not in your mind but this poetic description really sounds like "fighting for front" Even if you aren't a system, I really recommend the podcast "Many Minds on the Issue" on being a system. The podcast has good advice for singular people.
I didn't know I was a system until later in life. It can take systems over 6 years in therapy to even get a diagnosis. It makes a huge difference.
IMO everyone is like this
but some people are more inertial so they experience a personality phase for longer
Some people might stay in a phase for a week, others 1 month
if you're low inertia you're more likely to recognize it lucidly
I haven't been able to find any clinical study of such a thing, but I think I have something related to DID, but different? I think it may be a spiritual thing however.
Have lots of trauma, somehow have only tried to kill myself once. When that happened I got an alter or something like that. It's a personality that gets very angry if I try to do extremely reckless things, which I often wish to. I think he fronted and didn't allow me to go through with anything, but the whole incident was so confusing I'm not entirely sure what happened. If the thought of suicide comes up he is very insistent that is not going to happen because he doesn't wanna die and isn't gonna let me take him with him.
If I have classic DID symtoms they are mild and infrequent enough I don't really notice them. I had a sort of disassociated episode where I don't really remember what happened other than running from the cops at one point, but that was years ago.
I don't remember ever struggling over who gets to front, this personality never really wants to take over, especially not during normal daily life outside of times of crisis.
I hate to push this on someone and be like "hey be my doctor pls", but any thoughts on this? This guy in my head just tells me not to worry about it, but I feel like I should learn more about what is going on.
Hey, so every system is different. Fighting for front is an occurrence that can happen but not always and when it does happen it means the system needs to do more internal work.
I'm highly inclined to side with the notion that you should learn more. This alter sounds like a very protective one and may be of the mindset that saying it isn't a big deal will protect you from getting an increase in symptoms.
OSDD and the subtypes of it tend to exist to diagnosis people who don't fit the full blown DID criteria. The term plural is a non clinical term and is an umbrella for those who desire to claim it (not every system does) There is the plural association and there is also the "hearing voices movement" which can be inclusive of plurality and people who believe this is due to spirituality. Nothing you said surprises me personally but as someone who is not your doctor I can't do much besides refer you to other resources. "Coping with trauma related disassocation" is a book for both patients and therapists.
Some trauma treatments such as ERDM can actually worsen DID and OSDD in people who aren't largely integrated. It is good to know what is going on because some treatments that work for complex non system based trauma can cause bigger issues for systems.
The Plural Association is having a web conference soon for plurals, they are fundraising to make a "warmline" (Basically a non crisis peer support hotline) there are "voice and vision support groups" that exist, there is also the concept of ego states for complex ptsd. The ISSTD has a list of member therapists. Are these good resources? Let me know if you want other ones. I can't treat or diagnose but I can point you in some directions.
Knowing the hearing voices movement exists is very helpful, thank you. I always felt very alone in this because this has never been an issue for me, but also it's not something I've heard about or is treated as normal so it's just this part of my life I feel like I can't really tell people about.
Various forms of voice hearing is way more common than people talk about but there is a lot of stigma. People who have schizophrenia actually have better treatment outcomes in "the third world" than in the "first world" (generalization) because often times those societies accept that voice hearing is a part of the human experience for many people as opposed to something shameful or wrong
No. I had actually known about about the idea of plurality for years before I came to terms with things. I had fiercely rejected the notion of plurality being real on favor of explanations centered around the notion of being psychic. The other members in my system are actually vital to my functioning. If I blocked them out entirely, I'd falter. I think I personally require healthy religious ritual and engage to be self actualized but the advice the alters were giving was mundane.
I had an existing clinical history of CPTSD and body dsymorphia. Whenever people mentioned that I might be a system, I'd panic. I'd often have experiences of being having an alter take over to do a task or stand up for me. It was scary but they actually often made things safer/better for me and those around me. (Like walking me out of a room when I felt so triggered I was going to yell)
My experience of being a system was very different from what I was seeing in media and on tumblr. I could see the alters as being different versions of me. Also I was utterly fascinated by theorists who wrote about things that reminded me of plurality despite being in fierce denial. I had a professor think it was cool to tell me he thought I was a system. I felt so panicked after me and so unsafe. I'm one of the front people, we can be afraid of alters not because they are dangerous/bad but because we were initially created by the mind to deal to allow the entire system to live while the other alters who held the trauma memories went into the background. To us, when we are not working on our recovery, we can be very scared of the others in a system.
I had friends comment on my rapid but covert enegry level/style switching, mannerism changes, etc. Alters in a DID system will often pretend to be the host but without full context about how we live our lives. United States of Tara is not the case for a wide number of system. Her family is actually largely functional while she pretends extremely severe symptoms. I've only read a bit about the show. As a host who has been in fierce denial of the system, when I heard of that show my response was "No, that's fake, rather not. Gross, why are they misleading people who are probably just psychic? Bye"
Late to the party, but is your front evenly distributed amongst your alters, or do some dominate? Have you had the same distribution over time, or are there alters that have become more prominent or less prominent? Have any of you come into or out of existence that you can remember, or experienced some sort of discontinuity of personality?
What is intra-system communication like? Is it super fast, or is it the same speed as talking to an outside person?
Depends very much on the alter and every system is different. Some alters can get very involved. Others might want to front for a little bit and then stop without wanting to be the host. There is a pretty active alter who I adore that while vocal, I don't think she really wants the hosting jobs I hold. Some alters are currently entangled in trauma loops and still think the past is happening. They need help/rescue. Others only communicate a little bit. Many Minds on the Issue podcast has a few episodes on ways to get at least a small working team going and that if even only one alter wants to have a collective system then that alter should persist and keep trying.
