Capitalists can just be like “dude look at this NPR article socialism is bad”
Meanwhile I have to have an extensive understanding of philosophy, history, science, economics and politics in order to justify my worldview.
Sometimes I forget that people don’t have comprehensive world views, and accidentally say something’s CIA propaganda, then have to go through that whole process of explaining how the CIA having fronts and interfering in global affairs isn’t a conspiracy, it’s just reality, and that finding sources about it isn’t the same as finding sources for an 8th grade book report, because it’s the goddamn CIA! Shits exhausting and sucks balls, I just want to be dumb I know I’m right bitch, get off my dick
A side effect of the US being so overwhelmingly evil is that when you say true shit that it has done, you sound like an unhinged conspiracy theorist.
That's why you use the classic format of a joke to deliver the punchline "oh actually that wasn't the USSR imprisoning their population, that was Amerikkka"
Even the well known stuff makes you sound unhinged.
Like how do you explain that the CIA wanted to mind-control people while the FBI was infiltrating popular culture and political groups to make sure that it wasn't getting too communist?
The CIA once commissioned Bing Crosby to produce a porn film to discredit Sukarno. Mention that doozy next time you're at the bar.
And even when people believe you, they just write it off because "ok the US has done some bad stuff but we've also done a lot of good stuff too so on the whole we're a good country".
The guiding principle of foreign policy held by most Americans is that the US is a good country, thus whatever we do to another country is inherently good or at the very worst, well-intentioned with some "unfortunate" side effects...
Yeah, every time I talk to my mom about this she's like "well you have to give the US credit for the good things it's done" and doesn't have an answer when I ask her what good things she's talking about
They only ever fall back on WWII, which a) the Soviets did WAY more than we did, b) the US very easily could have almost allied with Hitler against the USSR, and in fact almost did, and c) WWII was what allowed the US to become the dominant global empire, and some speculate that was the plan all along.
You don't need to be.
I've been trying to popularise this amongst the left (actual left not synthetic left ie. those that demand as the lowest bar for "being left" the absolute and complete destruction of Western imperialism and Western capitalism. Not the synthetic left labour aristocrats that try to "both sides" shit when it comes to Russia/China/Iran/INSERT_WESTS_ENEMY_IT_WANTS_BALKANISE_AND_DESTORY_FOR_NEW_MARKETS)
Is that we should all be learning from conservatives and particularly Roger Stone
Who's philosophy is Never defend, Attack, Attack, Attack
Some cuckold brings up the wildly discredited black book of communism "100 million dead under gommies" bring up the fact that British capitalism is responsible for 1.8 billion indian deaths alone so surely 100 million dead from every communist country in the 20th century is a million times better than 1 capitalist nation? If they change tact point out under the metrics of that defined "100 million dead" India achieves that every 20 years
Another cuckold brings up Xinjiang (a recent topic) point out that the US has starved 27 million Yeminis in a completely manmade famine which is over double the population of Xinjiang so why don't they shut their fucking mouth and focus on a problem they can at least pressure their government about.
They bring up the falsified "slaves picking cotton in Xinjiang" (an obviously emotionally charged call to USsians with US particular history) point out how come they have no problem with slave children farming chocolate in the Ivory Coast , the fact that Burmese slaves are pumped full of amphetamines and tied to the prows of boats and pulled apart if they disobey orders or how come they have no problem with the child slaves of the Congo mining coltan for their mobile phones and laptops?
Bring up the fact that only 2 years the US army was bombing the Uyghurs in the East Turkestan Islamic Movement which the US designated as terrorists up until this year
You can adjust your honesty, disingenuous, vitriol and disgust at liberals and conservatives with depending on how dishonest and disingenuous they're being but leftists should understand that even the "well meaning liberals" that at least pretend to be based in reality are in fact disingenuous, disgusting gaslighting pieces of shit and you should have no moral qualm about being as disingenuous, flexible with reality or gaslighting in return.
In for a penny out for a pound
These lib and conservative disgusting pieces of shit that now pretend to care about muslim lives in Xinjiang (definitely the human rights they care about and not the geopolitical rivalry opening up between West and China) remind them that they said nothing whilst the US sanctioned Iraq to the point half a million children died in Iraq and the US secretary of state went on TV to tell people "it was worth it" and that they have literally murdered millions of muslims since they began funding the head chopping jihadis in the 80s where Osama Bin Laden built up his networks in the Muhajadeen
You don't owe these people anything and you should start viewing how you interact with them as a game for your entertainment
The term "whataboutism" was literally invented by the US to deflect from the very real human rights abuses and atrocities the US commits worldwide both at home and abroad
In particular when the Soviets presented the document We Charge Genocide to the United Nations written by black Americans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Charge_Genocide
Giving it free reign to commit atrocities on a global scale, apartheid at home then whine about "whataboutism" anytime someone brings up their flagrant and numerous human rights abuses
The fact you would use "whataboutism" in a sentence unironically suggests youre still a shitlib
Edit: My bad :heart-sickle:
I dig the righteous anger but they are clearly being ironic. Unless you are ironically attacking them, in which case I am in over my head in the levels of irony. Good response though to whataboutism, definitely using that.
Yeah it was in response to Britain going "they're killing civillians!" while also killing 6x as many or something
You should definitely fight back against the "100 berjillion dead gombunism" since the Black Book is notoriously bad history. I love this post, but I would alter it to say we should never cede ground, not never defend . I think if you concede to a liberal in your argument any notion that the 100 bajillion dead line is true, you have already lost them. They will write off British imperialism as "not real capitalism" and ignore whatever you say from there.
Definitely the same tactic of being aggressive, but you don't want to ever give them an inch or they'll take a mile.
how is talking to people you despise less tiring or more enjoyable
this is so good
change tact
since I'm gonna be reposting this I'm letting you know about the typo, should probably be "tack" (sailing term) or "tactic"
In for a penny out for a pound
the usual phrase is "In for a penny in for a pound", you might be engaging in wordplay here that I'm too dense to catch... asking just in case I shouldn't change it
God damn I've been saying that idiom wrong for years then :stalin-stressed:
try to “both sides” shit when it comes to Russia/China
Never defend, Attack, Attack, Attack
you can't use Marxist science to critique the bourgeoisie in places where we have to pretend like they're comrades
Siri, what is Lenin and the Right Of Nations To Self Determination?
I feel like the only thing leftists in the imperial core can do is wreck as much as possible. Just commit to burning it down and don't even talk about your ideology because that gives them ammo. Maybe something simple like "we hate billionaires"that basically everyone can get behind.
Gotta pre-occupy empire so projects elsewhere get a chance to breathe
We're 5 years away from liberals exclusively speaking in thought terminating cliches.
Me: "Man this is awful what the us is doing in China"
Lib: "Winnie the Pooh, agree to disagree, Russian propaganda!"
Actually, we're basically already there
Honestly communism just needs a quick rebranding
Freedom Economics would probably work pretty well in the US.
Workplace democracy is the best one imo. Like, it's simple and straightforward. Instead of having to say, "we want the economy to be democratic", which is a confusing principal to people who have spent all their lives living under the "free market", just say, "we want to be able to control our workplace. We want to be able to vote on who our leader is. We don't want the workplace to be a dictatorship"
The bit I hate is if you dont have an answer for absolutely every question the other person has immediately your entire argument is thrown in the bin.
And then they turn around and repeat those same fucking arguments tomorrow. They have no curiosity, and they don't care about truth.
I was getting a tattoo stylised in the art style of old soviet propaganda posters and had to listen one of the artists tell me how Stalin killed a bajillion gazillion people, communism = when gubment do thing, and just the same old shit, man. I had time because I couldn't go anywhere so I started arguing with them. Same old talking points I've heard a hundred times and I've read enough to be able to thoroughly respond to any of these but it just doesn't matter. Like, why even bother knowing anything lol. These people don't care.
It's like cool, I've read idk how many fucking books and consumed so much information on this, spent fucking years formulating a coherent world view, and they just come in with "nuh uh communism no food" and that's just it. Goddamn it's tiring.
I remain unconvinced that most people change their minds through anything like this, for good reason too. They're only going to be willing to have an internal change of heart when something about their own personal lived experiences contradicts the worldview imbued within them. They can't simply be told they're incorrect. They have to experience being incorrect. They have to see their worldview disintegrate from external pressure, as in, becoming a social pariah, experiencing poverty, anything that shows them that standard conventional "western" liberal values are illusory.
After experiencing something like that, then they can start piecing the dots together, because you can offer a more focused lens with a better explanation. That's how I've made people into leftists, focus on what they've already felt. Focus on the alienation that's already there.
I'm willing to bet 95% of you folk did it this way. You felt a greater than average amount of alienation from general society (maybe you had social anxiety, you directly experienced racism, maybe you're trans, maybe you went through devastating poverty, maybe all of the above). Then after a period of disorientation, something introduced you or reminded you of leftist frameworks, then it all tumbled into place
A hundred percent you're right, but having these conversations can help them understand their dissociation when they get there. Otherwise thats how CHUDs who listen to Jordan Peterson become nazis. Their only frame of reference is garbage so they blame marxists/minorities/immigrants if they don't have the language to understand capitalism is the problem.
Nah, the person doing the tattooing on me wasn't a chud, it was one of the other artists. They're a self described "anarcho-capitalist".
yeah if you're a committed marxist-leninist you basically have lobotomized your ability to sound sane in political discussions
Im not a marxist-leninist, yet I catch myself that whenever I argue with someone, I have to end up explaining sociology, and history and stuff... and I end up sounding like fucking Lenin...
they had to demonize the word "communism" and we've slowly reclaimed "socialism" and to an extent, some are even getting around to accepting "communism", as long as you say you don't start defending USSR or Stalin.
but "anarchism"? goddamn that's by far the hardest to explain. -_-
i hate it.
we are fighting a propaganda war against billions and billions of dollars spent over the last 200 years, at least
Vijay Prashad wrote a history of the 54 coup in Guatemala using online sources from the CIA and I know people who would still deny US involvement. He talks about it during his appearance on Guerilla History with Bhret from Rev Left.
It's completely documented BY THE CIA they literally brag about this stuff, but the media knows not to make a big deal about it for the public.
This is such a mood. Also why the 'leftist memes are all text' trope is true. It takes multiple paragraphs complete with 'acceptable' sourcing (so, ones that libs approve of - bloomberg, wapo, nyt, guardian, wikipedia) to show someone that the propaganda they believed is a fucking lie.
Yeah all my co-workers are into anti-vax shit now and I can't argue effectively against the loudest and most confident conspiracy theorist because I have zero expertise in medicine and virology.
tell him the globalists dont want him to take the vaccine because Trump made a deal with Pfizer to include 5g immunity in the vaccine which is why they rigged the election
I've been doing this recently, countering bullshit with an equal level of counter-bullshit and by god does it work well. I've spent so many hours playing the "you go low I go high" game but it isn't worth it. When libs hit you with a "human nature" hit them with an equally unfounded "human nature", like native american tribes or how families work. It doesn't matter what it is or even if you believe a word of it. There's not a thing they can say that doesn't apply to their own human nature argument also, so it forces them back into the realm of material arguments.
It sounds like nerdy debate club shit, but honestly just try it. It works.
There's no shame in picking your battles for the sake of your own mental health, comrade.
Apparently picking the fight against capitalism isn’t good for the ol’ mental health, thanks CIA :agony:
probably the only useful thing about having a degree in history is that a lot of people will occasionally shut the fuck up when I tell them they don't know what they are talking about. none of them actually change their views and just keep assuming NPR or whatever knows more than me, but they are usually aware they too ignorant compared to me to argue personally beyond sending a link.
This is what I refer to when I bitch about how I shouldn’t have to be a communist all the time. The worldview and understanding that Marxism has taught me is that you have to study the history and causes of certain events and why we have a propaganda line that twists the truth or even outright lies to us. But I shouldn’t have to always be an encyclopedia like you said.
