I don't get why incels exist tbh when you can go into literally any kink community right now and find 5 people that want to sub for practically anyone in like 10 minutes.
It really strikes me as being at least partially self inflicted, like the sex is just supposed to happen with nothing else involved? It strikes me that there's some sort of knowledge or effort barrier that they refuse to cross or that they don't understand or mistake the correct steps involved in getting from A to B.
The question that bothers me much more than why they can’t get sex is WHY incels base their happiness and worth almost entirely on sex and dating in the first place. That seems very problematic to me and getting closer to the core of the issue.
In capitalism you either have sex/dating or wealth that are pushed as the great things that make you "successful". I would probably look at their backgrounds and how they were raised to determine why sex/dating ended up ahead of wealth for them.
I think the cases where people don't fall into either of those two usually happen because our parents were a counterbalance against the hegemony telling us that those aren't important during the very important development years.
I don't get why incels exist tbh when you can go into literally any kink community right now and find 5 people that want to sub for practically anyone in like 10 minutes.
I don't know of any local kink community I can just walk into. Especially as a single man, lol
I've known (emphasis on the known) a fare few guys who toe'd the incel line if not went all in.
All of them were cute, not one of them was physically undateable like that is even the most important thing (any guys reading its really 100% not). One was even like the hottest guy in our wider group.
All of them were fucking weird about women and blamed women for only liking dickhead guys and not nice guys like them.
It was 100% a them problem.
If they didn't have too high standards and rejected any girls who did look past their bs, they would go for people already taken and it's like WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!
This has been my experience. I actually haven't met an incel who looks as bad as they seem to think they look in order to be undateable, but the personal behaviour and attitudes of the person were not good.
The world of dating is too dangerous for anyone not cis het male and white and who the hell would risk their safety and take a chance on someone who blatantly blames women for their woes when even the more "normal" ones can pop off.
They could also spend a modest sum and get off that way. There are at least two major things that I think you're missing:
A lot of them want a partner who they can be emotionally intimate with, not just someone to fuck. A simple proof that doesn't involve us both needing to look at their forums is that they have a popular acronym "KHHV," or "kissless, hand-holdless virgin" which I think is used partly to emphasize their literal distance from women, but also to communicate closeness they are lacking besides the sex. If all I want is to fuck people, what do I give a shit about holding someone's hand? This is also part of why trad shit so easily gained traction there, because it was basically viewed (falsely) as a guarantee to have a partner that you could emotionally invest in and they wouldn't leave you (there are many ways this is wrong, of course)*
The second thing, as I mention in my dumb rant in this thread, is that incel communities are highly predatory cults. They prey on the mentally ill, racial minorities (particularly Asians), and literal children. They take your trauma** and convince you that it's just what the world is for someone like you. It's not about whether you can objectively access sex (again, escorts exist), it's about hating yourself and, through that, hating everyone outside of your new group of "allies".
Also, like, nothing against kink, but a fair number of people -- especially the sexually inexperienced -- are really not into basically any of it. Also I think the huge number of subs is more a gay community thing (I've been told there's a top shortage), but I wouldn't know since I'm one of those vanilla hets.
*While I believe these pieces of evidence do point to my conclusion, I recognize they are unconvincing. The real reason I believe it is because I spent some time on incel boards (I was never an incel) and the level of sentimentality about relationships, about being told "I love you" and so on was off the charts.
**in the former two cases. With the kids, it's just straightforward ideological grooming
A lot of them want a partner who they can be emotionally intimate with, not just someone to fuck. A simple proof that doesn't involve us both needing to look at their forums is that they have a popular acronym "KHHV," or "kissless, hand-holdless virgin" which I think is used partly to emphasize their literal distance from women, but also to communicate closeness they are lacking besides the sex.
The level of intimacy they yearn for is created over months, the sex is usually much earlier. So perhaps part of the problem is that they mentally have the cart before the horse, the order of things that are supposed to happen is incorrect in their heads and therefore they fail the whole dating thing because it doesn't match with the material reality and issues occur interacting with others over this.
The second thing, as I mention in my dumb rant in this thread, is that incel communities are highly predatory cults. They prey on the mentally ill, racial minorities (particularly Asians), and literal children. They take your trauma** and convince you that it's just what the world is for someone like you. It's not about whether you can objectively access sex (again, escorts exist), it's about hating yourself and, through that, hating everyone outside of your new group of "allies".
Yes I agree with the cult aspect.
Also, like, nothing against kink, but a fair number of people -- especially the sexually inexperienced -- are really not into basically any of it. Also I think the huge number of subs is more a gay community thing (I've been told there's a top shortage), but I wouldn't know since I'm one of those vanilla hets.
Yeah so they yearn for a specific kind of traditionally romantic relationship, probably learned from patriarchal television, movies and dramas, which doesn't actually spontaneously exist in the real modern world anymore outside of teenagers or rare random occurrences of two people with chemistry hitting it off. And even then the two people with chemistry get down to fucking before they get down to any kind of deeply involved romantic intimacy after months of building emotional bonds and closeness.
The other side of this is that they're so misogynistic how the fuck do they expect to get that romantically close to someone before they realise how awful they are?
The level of intimacy they yearn for is created over months, the sex is usually much earlier. So perhaps part of the problem is that they mentally have the cart before the horse, the order of things that are supposed to happen is incorrect in their heads and therefore they fail the whole dating thing because it doesn’t match with the material reality and issues occur interacting with others over this.
How? Why is this the case? I've thought for such a long time that people in general would prefer to wait for emotional intimacy before engaging in sex for a long-term relationship. When did it become like this?
I think in the past various religious values used to impress a certain amount of prudishness and resistance to sexual relations such that romantic feelings would develop before physicality. Whereas these days those values and the "save yourself for the one you love" attitude fell by the wayside as a result of secularism.
Add on top of that the fact that everyone is horny af and that's mostly normalised as fine and ok and well there you have it. People get physical fairly quickly, within the first 1-14 days, whereas love takes months to develop or people put up barriers to actively avoid developing those romantic feelings after previous negative experiences (self preservation after how much it hurt).
I'm speaking strictly of the west here of course, I don't have enough experience outside of it to say how different things might be elsewhere. I would expect things trend in the same direction outside of the religiously-led countries though.
Biology happens, and I'd still tell people, after significant experience with that: spend the time getting to know someone before sexing them. That hormone rush wears off after about three months, and it's not great to find out you really don't actually like a person you're already sleeping with.
Most people really aren't willing to wait that long before engaging in anything physical. I suspect that people probably suffer a sort of relationship fomo in that they're worried someone else will snag them if they don't start.
The other side of this is that they're so misogynistic how the fuck do they expect to get that romantically close to someone before they realise how awful they are?
they're stuck in a doom loop of terrible self esteem and self fulfilling prophecy. Anyone from the outside looking in can look at the situation and say "Why don't you just?" but they're trainwrecks, they probably need therapy to escape it. Well that probably works for like pre-2010 normal teenager who is scared of girls and can't get laid type of situation, now we have the fent of inceldom thanks to 4chan or whatever started it. Probably need some sort of detox from the internet plus therapy.
I wouldn't really know since I've only ever had "traditional" relationships, but I'm pretty sure they still exist. Most of the people I know (which is now mid twenties at the youngest up to near 40) are in romantic relationships or want to be, it's not just hook-ups out there. Like, don't get me wrong, thinking about how to find a way to get into a romantic relationship again makes me want to CW, but that's partly because it was already really difficult for someone like me and it's getting more difficult as I get older . . . Anyway, of all the things we can blame them for, I think not wanting to fuck men and now wanting to, idk, whip and step on people? is really it. Incidentally, one of the veins of discourse in the incel community is basically doing conversion therapy to become gay because they believe that it's way easier on average for a dude to get laid if he's gay. I've never seen someone report that the converted themselves, though.
The other side of this is that they're so misogynistic how the fuck do they expect to get that romantically close to someone before they realise how awful they are?
Well, they didn't become such sickos until after they already had their negative experiences, at which point they've usually given up and made sexual frustration their religion. There's no contradiction in this specific point, even if there's a lot of short-sightedness, dehumanization, reaction, etc.
Edit:
The level of intimacy they yearn for is created over months, the sex is usually much earlier. So perhaps part of the problem is that they mentally have the cart before the horse, the order of things that are supposed to happen is incorrect in their heads and therefore they fail the whole dating thing because it doesn't match with the material reality and issues occur interacting with others over this.
Not to keep playing reverse "Spot the Contradiction," but you need to remember that these are people who generally have never had a girlfriend. Period. They might get a first date or two and then get ghosted. In the context of a first date, do you think that for a het woman, a man more interested in emotionality than sex is somehow a red flag? Like yeah, if he's trauma dumping to you while you're at the diner and you don't even really know him, that's probably not gonna fly, but if anything I would think emotionality that is somewhat in check and deprioritizing sex would be considered substantial positives for these guys as candidates. Unfortunately for them, most of them never even got that far and the other ones found some other way (probably prioritizing sex in many cases) to fuck it up.
You can't convert to being gay, sexuality is fluid sure but if someone finds relief in dating men they didn't successfully convert themselves, they were just a repressed queer person. That's legitimising conversion therapy but the opposite way round.
No, nobody is happy to hear straight people are "converting themselves queer" if it's because of mental health and trauma. That's awful. I want all queer people to be happy, not forced by some self hatred.
No gay men don't get it easier, it's just as difficult/easy for them, this is a wild bit of homophobia. They aren't more promiscuous or sex having. Just as many sit on the Internet being horny as straight men do and not getting laid like everyone else.
We don't apologise for fascists here for getting radicised, we have nuanced conversations about how radicalisation happens i hope. Inceldom is classified as an extremist ideology. If people want to reform from it then they have to take ownership of themselves and their behaviours to some degree, not look for imo whataboutisms regarding an ideology that's lead to multiple mass shootings, murders, redacted etc of women.
Maybe I don't get what you mean but to me it seems like you underestimate how scary this ideology is to women given how damaging and harmful it can be. It's gone beyond sad boys getting ghosted and venting on the Internet.
Sorry maybe I'm speaking from my own trauma here but this stuff is so scary.
You might be happy to know, though, that one of the veins of discourse in the incel community is basically doing conversion therapy to become gay because they believe (I think correctly) that it's way easier on average for a dude to get laid if he's gay. I've never seen someone report that the converted themselves, though.
Maybe you should learn what "essentialist" means when you're that insistent on weaponizing the term against other users. Also that's a pretty gross case of biphobia you got there.
I wasn't weighing in on whether their conversion ideas were legitimate or not, merely saying that some people talked about pursuing it.
I was being facetious, I apologize if I upset you. It might have been insensitive of me. I'll remove that part.
I think the logic goes that lots of dudes want, whether by social conditioning or natural libido or whatever, to fuck anything that walks. Lots of women, for the same reasons, don't. Therefore, if someone wants to have sex, they should have sex with men. It's not about gay men being more libidinal than straight men, it's about men being more libidinal than women. Again, their logic, not mine. Hopefully you don't see this as defensive, since it's not like conversion is a key pillar of their ideology, it's just something that pops up conversationally here and there.
I never excused their actions, I merely want to understand it causally and sometimes to help others make sense of it. The problem with their ideology is that it is reactionary, not that it is extremist; we're extremists, too! I get how you take me for an apologist (though I'm not), but I don't get how you took anything I said to be a "whataboutism".
I'm not particularly aware of the violence it has caused beyond the mass shootings, but I've read some of their violent fantasizing on their board and I won't reprint it even with a CW. I know that this is a dangerous "culture" (network of cults) with a bad ideology, the point isn't to say that it isn't bad. But if you're really serious about acting against them, it's important to understand how they work and where their motivations come from, you can't just make shit up or hastily string faulty inferences together and then have it be unassailable because challenging this negative claim is de facto apologetics. It doesn't make any sense.
Now of course, if you read my dumb rant (which I don't encourage, I think it'll just upset you), I do admit that I personally feel bad for the more sad boy contingent of them, just as I feel bad for a friend of mine who got brought into a more literal cult and now recruits more victims, even though I also condemn their actions and basically everything they do or think at this point. However, my feelings might motivate my attention to this issue, but I do not justify anything with those feelings as that would be absurd and no one here would even understand it, much less agree. It would also be poor reasoning. Ultimately, what I want is the best outcome for the most people, which statistically means mainly that people should be protected from incels, but it also means that -- insofar as logistics allow it -- the incels should be put in re-education camps rather than on death row, and they don't need to repent first, they just need to be put somewhere where they can't hurt anyone and then learn why they should repent.
This paragraph i'm referencing, nope nope nope.
I understood before, but the particularly offensive content has been removed
By the way, you don't need to apologize for voicing concerns, it is a good thing to do.
It's ridiculous and should only be condemned. It's concerning that the foundation of some of these people is belief in conversion therapy. Sorry for implying you did.
Probably
This gets said a lot but most gay men I know are vers/switch and don't have hard and fast rules in actual dating relationships. The top shortage thing is probably more to do with hookups because for a hookup people usually have an idea about what they want which is to be railed.
Please don't insinuate im an extremist, I yap on a lefty forum on an account I made during a particularly bad period and don't do any violence or have any plans or desires or wishes to harm anyone, call me a lib. Conflating that with people who actively wish death on women is wild.
But if you're really serious about acting against them, it's important to understand how they work and where their motivations come from, you can't just make shit up or hastily string faulty inferences together and then have it be unassailable because challenging this negative claim is de facto apologetics. It doesn't make any sense.
Excuse me?
You have no idea who i am, what i do, what I've read or studied etc. That's just an assumption you just made.
Sorry I didn't prep for a debate on the motivations of violence towards women in that clique of men and have all my references and citations ready to go.
I didn't see you as an apologist more someone who's missing half the picture on this issue by virtue of being a man and not the victim of the chain of violence. And also made some dodgy comments i replied to.
I had read the rest of your comments and others before I replied. I only commented cos of the things I initially called out.
It's not like I haven't read or taken anything in and I don't like how you assume I've dismissed it. I do talk to men in real life. I have spoken and listened to others, I do have a boyfriend who has a voice and opinion too. I wasn't planning to spend all night effort posting either.
Please don't insinuate im an extremist, I yap on a lefty forum on an account I made during a particularly bad period and don't do any violence or have any plans or desires or wishes to harm anyone, call me a lib. Conflating that with people who actively wish death on women is wild.
I just wanna point out that we don't really wish for violence, we simply know that it's going to come to us. The bourgeoisie will not give up their power willingly and will use extreme violence to keep that power. The violence of the revolutionary left is self-defence in that regard as far as I'm concerned. Especially if you ever read The Jakarta Method it just becomes plainly obvious.
I don't think you or anyone do, that's why I think it's a wild to have what youve said compared/in the same sentence as reactionary incels forums and rhetoric.
Lmao leftist violence and other MSM boogeymen. What have we done recently? checks notes oh got year in prison for a zoom call about blocking traffic.
What are British farmers doing right now over inheritance tax? Blocking roads or threatening to.
Conflating that with people who actively wish death on women is wild.
I was going to say that if you accused me of equivocating, I swear on me mum. The extreme right and the extreme left are both extremes, people who adhere to either are extremists. Extremism isn't an ideology or a value, it's a descriptor of how an ideology relates to the status quo (i.e. being really far away). Unless you meant I was equivocating liberals [on a leftist website] with incels, which would make less sense. I just didn't know you were a lib since almost no one with a HB account identifies that way.
Excuse me?
I should have phrased it more carefully, but I wasn't actually referring to you with that comment. Remember this is all based on you responding to me saying other stuff, there was more context than just us talking, and it's a bad habit of this board (and, admittedly, people in general) to make hasty assumptions about their opposition. I've been getting in trouble with using the general "you" a lot; I need to figure out how to signal things more clearly.
I'm not a lib lmao but I'm also just here to vibe. I'm probably a lib to most people here but like 🤷♀️
Tbh I do the whole saying you thing alot when I'm trying to explain stuff and people are like what no I'm not and I'm like oh no I meant like the general topic of conversation.
In the end I think for guys who've been near to that centre and have pulled away there will be a natural sympathy that imo (to be debated another time) presents as understanding of wider issue because of a personal experience. And then believing that personal experience to be representative of the wider whole.
That same paragraph could be applied to women who've faced violence or grief from incels but the difference is that we are the victims, we HAVE to understand why men are violent to survive them and we've being doing that for a while now with feminism.
I'm not saying women have the answers but we have decades of research, academia, discussion and lived experience as well as facing similar and more oppressive societal structures.
Maybe trust we might have a good starting point for this debate than men who only started really addressing their cultural issues more recently?
Incels propagate violence towards women. They aren't the first. This is a cycle. We have a good starting point on why violence towards women happens. Why incels are uniquely the way they are is to find out but feminists do have a decent bit of knowledge to draw from that is always dismissed in my experience.
Anyway I'm not the smart feminist to be soapboxing and I've probably said something stupid so I'm slink away now. Sorrryyyy going to sleeeeppp.
Edit: aaaa I did the using you but not actually meaning you personally thing. Shit.
I wouldn't really know since I've only ever had "traditional" relationships, but I'm pretty sure they still exist. Most of the people I know (which is now mid twenties at the youngest up to near 40) are in romantic relationships or want to be, it's not just hook-ups out there. Like, don't get me wrong, thinking about how to find a way to get into a romantic relationship again makes me want to CW, but that's partly because it was already really difficult for someone like me and it's getting more difficult as I get older . . .
I think you've misunderstood me. When I say "traditional" I mean like, this fairytail of many weeks/months of dating before sexy time. It just isn't how it actually works in the real world anymore. People are making out and rubbing bits together within the first few days/week or they're moving on.
The intimacy and romance is built alongside the physicality. If it exists.
There's an unwritten rule about not being too clingy during that time, and if the two people fall for each other then they do, but also you have to not be too clingy too quickly or else it becomes massively unattractive. This is a major hurdle for incels because of course they're massively insecure and that same insecurity causes them to massively overthink everything and become far too emotionally attached too quickly to the point that it makes the other person uncomfortable how they're being.
Incidentally, one of the veins of discourse in the incel community is basically doing conversion therapy to become gay because they believe that it's way easier on average for a dude to get laid if he's gay. I've never seen someone report that the converted themselves, though.
I don't think it's easier to get laid if you're gay. I think it's easier to get laid if you're into kink and that community happens to almost entirely crossover with kink due to comfort with exploration.
Not to keep playing reverse "Spot the Contradiction," but you need to remember that these are people who generally have never had a girlfriend. Period. They might get a first date or two and then get ghosted. In the context of a first date, do you think that for a het woman, a man more interested in emotionality than sex is somehow a red flag?
No.
Like yeah, if he's trauma dumping to you while you're at the diner and you don't even really know him, that's probably not gonna fly
This is practically all of them. They will all tell you just how much life has it out for them with practically no prompting, and it's deeply offputting to most people.
but if anything I would think emotionality that is somewhat in check and deprioritizing sex would be considered substantial positives for these guys as candidates
It would be, if they could get their incredible insecurity in check or at least successfully hide it for long enough for someone to see the real person they are.
However, one of the problems with insecurity is that it controls you in a way that causes you to act differently. It holds you back, it makes you not say things, or say things you shouldn't, it causes acting out, etc etc. If you can remove insecurity from the situation you end up with a completely different person, one that is attractive assuming they don't say some women-hating bullshit.
this fairytail of many weeks/months of dating before sexy time. It just isn't how it actually works in the real world anymore. People are making out and rubbing bits together within the first few days/week or they're moving on.
News to demis. Just because our fairy nature gives us powers of invisibility we don't entirely control, doesn't mean we don't have a presence in your real world!
Yeah, it's easy in high school and even easier as an undergrad, but there's a precipitous drop immediately after that, at least for me (though I have to imagine it applies to many other people).
I would argue it's not the sex that is specifically the problem, sex is clumsy for everyone in first experiences. For the incels it's the part before the sex they are erring on. We don't have socialisation classes on what typically occurs before the sex, we only have movies for that and the movies are not actually a reflection of our current reality. They get taught the wrong thing, fail, build up insecurity about it, fail even harder, and then resent society for it. This resentment at society for this makes them uniquely susceptible to the deep hate that the community has now become a hotbed for, including the mass killings carried out by some of them.
If I wanted to turn this around I think my starting point would be movies. Specifically movies focused on inceldom and reforming from it but also followed by a change in the way movies currently teach people these relations in an out of date way that simply isn't reflecting current society.
You are advocating for accepting, no, Demanding that those of us who've already been denigrated by these males make space for harmful, non-receptive threats in our circles. Shockingly he/him moment for a them honestly; get the fuck out of my inbox
Like you just skipped right past that "somebody who's gone out of their way to either rebuff or outright denigrate my viewpoints" bit. Wanna debate pervert me all motherfuckin night with lines you could've just skimmed to find something to copy and paste but you didn't read shit I had to say. Motherfucker you are not welcome to get buck with me.
They went right past what I said, I'm not showing their rote recitation any consideration. This isn't negotiable or debatable, I'm not about allowing hateful, already-proven-harmful toxic-ass dudes in my circles or orbits. Since you and ol' person wants to debate pervert me so hard about it, y'all can do that work, burn y'all hands, and gargle that poison.
Over reacting. There is no possible way to solve a problem without talking about what the causes of it are.
I also don't agree with you generalising incels as simply all being neurodiverse people, they're not, some might be but the majority? I don't think so. It also means any criticism of incels is ableism and frankly I entirely disagree.
I don't get why incels exist tbh when you can go into literally any kink community right now and find 5 people that want to sub for practically anyone in like 10 minutes.
It really strikes me as being at least partially self inflicted, like the sex is just supposed to happen with nothing else involved? It strikes me that there's some sort of knowledge or effort barrier that they refuse to cross or that they don't understand or mistake the correct steps involved in getting from A to B.
The question that bothers me much more than why they can’t get sex is WHY incels base their happiness and worth almost entirely on sex and dating in the first place. That seems very problematic to me and getting closer to the core of the issue.
In capitalism you either have sex/dating or wealth that are pushed as the great things that make you "successful". I would probably look at their backgrounds and how they were raised to determine why sex/dating ended up ahead of wealth for them.
I think the cases where people don't fall into either of those two usually happen because our parents were a counterbalance against the hegemony telling us that those aren't important during the very important development years.
I don't know of any local kink community I can just walk into. Especially as a single man, lol
Real; I had to be a woman's +1 to even start making a name last time I fucked with those scenes.
I've known (emphasis on the known) a fare few guys who toe'd the incel line if not went all in.
All of them were cute, not one of them was physically undateable like that is even the most important thing (any guys reading its really 100% not). One was even like the hottest guy in our wider group.
All of them were fucking weird about women and blamed women for only liking dickhead guys and not nice guys like them.
It was 100% a them problem.
If they didn't have too high standards and rejected any girls who did look past their bs, they would go for people already taken and it's like WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!
This has been my experience. I actually haven't met an incel who looks as bad as they seem to think they look in order to be undateable, but the personal behaviour and attitudes of the person were not good.
The world of dating is too dangerous for anyone not cis het male and white and who the hell would risk their safety and take a chance on someone who blatantly blames women for their woes when even the more "normal" ones can pop off.
It's just not worth it ever.
They could also spend a modest sum and get off that way. There are at least two major things that I think you're missing:
A lot of them want a partner who they can be emotionally intimate with, not just someone to fuck. A simple proof that doesn't involve us both needing to look at their forums is that they have a popular acronym "KHHV," or "kissless, hand-holdless virgin" which I think is used partly to emphasize their literal distance from women, but also to communicate closeness they are lacking besides the sex. If all I want is to fuck people, what do I give a shit about holding someone's hand? This is also part of why trad shit so easily gained traction there, because it was basically viewed (falsely) as a guarantee to have a partner that you could emotionally invest in and they wouldn't leave you (there are many ways this is wrong, of course)*
The second thing, as I mention in my dumb rant in this thread, is that incel communities are highly predatory cults. They prey on the mentally ill, racial minorities (particularly Asians), and literal children. They take your trauma** and convince you that it's just what the world is for someone like you. It's not about whether you can objectively access sex (again, escorts exist), it's about hating yourself and, through that, hating everyone outside of your new group of "allies".
Also, like, nothing against kink, but a fair number of people -- especially the sexually inexperienced -- are really not into basically any of it. Also I think the huge number of subs is more a gay community thing (I've been told there's a top shortage), but I wouldn't know since I'm one of those vanilla hets.
*While I believe these pieces of evidence do point to my conclusion, I recognize they are unconvincing. The real reason I believe it is because I spent some time on incel boards (I was never an incel) and the level of sentimentality about relationships, about being told "I love you" and so on was off the charts.
**in the former two cases. With the kids, it's just straightforward ideological grooming
The level of intimacy they yearn for is created over months, the sex is usually much earlier. So perhaps part of the problem is that they mentally have the cart before the horse, the order of things that are supposed to happen is incorrect in their heads and therefore they fail the whole dating thing because it doesn't match with the material reality and issues occur interacting with others over this.
Yes I agree with the cult aspect.
Yeah so they yearn for a specific kind of traditionally romantic relationship, probably learned from patriarchal television, movies and dramas, which doesn't actually spontaneously exist in the real modern world anymore outside of teenagers or rare random occurrences of two people with chemistry hitting it off. And even then the two people with chemistry get down to fucking before they get down to any kind of deeply involved romantic intimacy after months of building emotional bonds and closeness.
The other side of this is that they're so misogynistic how the fuck do they expect to get that romantically close to someone before they realise how awful they are?
How? Why is this the case? I've thought for such a long time that people in general would prefer to wait for emotional intimacy before engaging in sex for a long-term relationship. When did it become like this?
I think in the past various religious values used to impress a certain amount of prudishness and resistance to sexual relations such that romantic feelings would develop before physicality. Whereas these days those values and the "save yourself for the one you love" attitude fell by the wayside as a result of secularism.
Add on top of that the fact that everyone is horny af and that's mostly normalised as fine and ok and well there you have it. People get physical fairly quickly, within the first 1-14 days, whereas love takes months to develop or people put up barriers to actively avoid developing those romantic feelings after previous negative experiences (self preservation after how much it hurt).
I'm speaking strictly of the west here of course, I don't have enough experience outside of it to say how different things might be elsewhere. I would expect things trend in the same direction outside of the religiously-led countries though.
Biology happens, and I'd still tell people, after significant experience with that: spend the time getting to know someone before sexing them. That hormone rush wears off after about three months, and it's not great to find out you really don't actually like a person you're already sleeping with.
Most people really aren't willing to wait that long before engaging in anything physical. I suspect that people probably suffer a sort of relationship fomo in that they're worried someone else will snag them if they don't start.
Yes. After significant experience with that, I would say that's the difference between desperation and confidence.
To illustrate, desperation = pick me, confidence = I'm enough.
they're stuck in a doom loop of terrible self esteem and self fulfilling prophecy. Anyone from the outside looking in can look at the situation and say "Why don't you just?" but they're trainwrecks, they probably need therapy to escape it. Well that probably works for like pre-2010 normal teenager who is scared of girls and can't get laid type of situation, now we have the fent of inceldom thanks to 4chan or whatever started it. Probably need some sort of detox from the internet plus therapy.
:idiot-doom-spiral:
I used to play bass for Idiot Doom Spiral
I wouldn't really know since I've only ever had "traditional" relationships, but I'm pretty sure they still exist. Most of the people I know (which is now mid twenties at the youngest up to near 40) are in romantic relationships or want to be, it's not just hook-ups out there. Like, don't get me wrong, thinking about how to find a way to get into a romantic relationship again makes me want to CW, but that's partly because it was already really difficult for someone like me and it's getting more difficult as I get older . . . Anyway, of all the things we can blame them for, I think not wanting to fuck men and now wanting to, idk, whip and step on people? is really it. Incidentally, one of the veins of discourse in the incel community is basically doing conversion therapy to become gay because they believe that it's way easier on average for a dude to get laid if he's gay. I've never seen someone report that the converted themselves, though.
Well, they didn't become such sickos until after they already had their negative experiences, at which point they've usually given up and made sexual frustration their religion. There's no contradiction in this specific point, even if there's a lot of short-sightedness, dehumanization, reaction, etc.
Edit:
Not to keep playing reverse "Spot the Contradiction," but you need to remember that these are people who generally have never had a girlfriend. Period. They might get a first date or two and then get ghosted. In the context of a first date, do you think that for a het woman, a man more interested in emotionality than sex is somehow a red flag? Like yeah, if he's trauma dumping to you while you're at the diner and you don't even really know him, that's probably not gonna fly, but if anything I would think emotionality that is somewhat in check and deprioritizing sex would be considered substantial positives for these guys as candidates. Unfortunately for them, most of them never even got that far and the other ones found some other way (probably prioritizing sex in many cases) to fuck it up.
Aaaaa nooooooooo
You can't convert to being gay, sexuality is fluid sure but if someone finds relief in dating men they didn't successfully convert themselves, they were just a repressed queer person. That's legitimising conversion therapy but the opposite way round.
No, nobody is happy to hear straight people are "converting themselves queer" if it's because of mental health and trauma. That's awful. I want all queer people to be happy, not forced by some self hatred.
No gay men don't get it easier, it's just as difficult/easy for them, this is a wild bit of homophobia. They aren't more promiscuous or sex having. Just as many sit on the Internet being horny as straight men do and not getting laid like everyone else.
We don't apologise for fascists here for getting radicised, we have nuanced conversations about how radicalisation happens i hope. Inceldom is classified as an extremist ideology. If people want to reform from it then they have to take ownership of themselves and their behaviours to some degree, not look for imo whataboutisms regarding an ideology that's lead to multiple mass shootings, murders, redacted etc of women.
Maybe I don't get what you mean but to me it seems like you underestimate how scary this ideology is to women given how damaging and harmful it can be. It's gone beyond sad boys getting ghosted and venting on the Internet.
Sorry maybe I'm speaking from my own trauma here but this stuff is so scary.
This paragraph i'm referencing, nope nope nope.
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Maybe you should learn what "essentialist" means when you're that insistent on weaponizing the term against other users. Also that's a pretty gross case of biphobia you got there.
I wasn't weighing in on whether their conversion ideas were legitimate or not, merely saying that some people talked about pursuing it.
I was being facetious, I apologize if I upset you. It might have been insensitive of me. I'll remove that part.
I think the logic goes that lots of dudes want, whether by social conditioning or natural libido or whatever, to fuck anything that walks. Lots of women, for the same reasons, don't. Therefore, if someone wants to have sex, they should have sex with men. It's not about gay men being more libidinal than straight men, it's about men being more libidinal than women. Again, their logic, not mine. Hopefully you don't see this as defensive, since it's not like conversion is a key pillar of their ideology, it's just something that pops up conversationally here and there.
I never excused their actions, I merely want to understand it causally and sometimes to help others make sense of it. The problem with their ideology is that it is reactionary, not that it is extremist; we're extremists, too! I get how you take me for an apologist (though I'm not), but I don't get how you took anything I said to be a "whataboutism".
I'm not particularly aware of the violence it has caused beyond the mass shootings, but I've read some of their violent fantasizing on their board and I won't reprint it even with a CW. I know that this is a dangerous "culture" (network of cults) with a bad ideology, the point isn't to say that it isn't bad. But if you're really serious about acting against them, it's important to understand how they work and where their motivations come from, you can't just make shit up or hastily string faulty inferences together and then have it be unassailable because challenging this negative claim is de facto apologetics. It doesn't make any sense.
Now of course, if you read my dumb rant (which I don't encourage, I think it'll just upset you), I do admit that I personally feel bad for the more sad boy contingent of them, just as I feel bad for a friend of mine who got brought into a more literal cult and now recruits more victims, even though I also condemn their actions and basically everything they do or think at this point. However, my feelings might motivate my attention to this issue, but I do not justify anything with those feelings as that would be absurd and no one here would even understand it, much less agree. It would also be poor reasoning. Ultimately, what I want is the best outcome for the most people, which statistically means mainly that people should be protected from incels, but it also means that -- insofar as logistics allow it -- the incels should be put in re-education camps rather than on death row, and they don't need to repent first, they just need to be put somewhere where they can't hurt anyone and then learn why they should repent.
I understood before, but the particularly offensive content has been removed
By the way, you don't need to apologize for voicing concerns, it is a good thing to do.
It's ridiculous and should only be condemned. It's concerning that the foundation of some of these people is belief in conversion therapy. Sorry for implying you did.
Probably
This gets said a lot but most gay men I know are vers/switch and don't have hard and fast rules in actual dating relationships. The top shortage thing is probably more to do with hookups because for a hookup people usually have an idea about what they want which is to be railed.
Please don't insinuate im an extremist, I yap on a lefty forum on an account I made during a particularly bad period and don't do any violence or have any plans or desires or wishes to harm anyone, call me a lib. Conflating that with people who actively wish death on women is wild.
Excuse me?
You have no idea who i am, what i do, what I've read or studied etc. That's just an assumption you just made.
Sorry I didn't prep for a debate on the motivations of violence towards women in that clique of men and have all my references and citations ready to go.
I didn't see you as an apologist more someone who's missing half the picture on this issue by virtue of being a man and not the victim of the chain of violence. And also made some dodgy comments i replied to.
I had read the rest of your comments and others before I replied. I only commented cos of the things I initially called out.
It's not like I haven't read or taken anything in and I don't like how you assume I've dismissed it. I do talk to men in real life. I have spoken and listened to others, I do have a boyfriend who has a voice and opinion too. I wasn't planning to spend all night effort posting either.
I just wanna point out that we don't really wish for violence, we simply know that it's going to come to us. The bourgeoisie will not give up their power willingly and will use extreme violence to keep that power. The violence of the revolutionary left is self-defence in that regard as far as I'm concerned. Especially if you ever read The Jakarta Method it just becomes plainly obvious.
I don't think you or anyone do, that's why I think it's a wild to have what youve said compared/in the same sentence as reactionary incels forums and rhetoric.
Lmao leftist violence and other MSM boogeymen. What have we done recently? checks notes oh got year in prison for a zoom call about blocking traffic.
What are British farmers doing right now over inheritance tax? Blocking roads or threatening to.
Stupid island.
I was going to say that if you accused me of equivocating, I swear on me mum. The extreme right and the extreme left are both extremes, people who adhere to either are extremists. Extremism isn't an ideology or a value, it's a descriptor of how an ideology relates to the status quo (i.e. being really far away). Unless you meant I was equivocating liberals [on a leftist website] with incels, which would make less sense. I just didn't know you were a lib since almost no one with a HB account identifies that way.
I should have phrased it more carefully, but I wasn't actually referring to you with that comment. Remember this is all based on you responding to me saying other stuff, there was more context than just us talking, and it's a bad habit of this board (and, admittedly, people in general) to make hasty assumptions about their opposition. I've been getting in trouble with using the general "you" a lot; I need to figure out how to signal things more clearly.
I'm not a lib lmao but I'm also just here to vibe. I'm probably a lib to most people here but like 🤷♀️
Tbh I do the whole saying you thing alot when I'm trying to explain stuff and people are like what no I'm not and I'm like oh no I meant like the general topic of conversation.
In the end I think for guys who've been near to that centre and have pulled away there will be a natural sympathy that imo (to be debated another time) presents as understanding of wider issue because of a personal experience. And then believing that personal experience to be representative of the wider whole.
That same paragraph could be applied to women who've faced violence or grief from incels but the difference is that we are the victims, we HAVE to understand why men are violent to survive them and we've being doing that for a while now with feminism.
I'm not saying women have the answers but we have decades of research, academia, discussion and lived experience as well as facing similar and more oppressive societal structures.
Maybe trust we might have a good starting point for this debate than men who only started really addressing their cultural issues more recently?
Incels propagate violence towards women. They aren't the first. This is a cycle. We have a good starting point on why violence towards women happens. Why incels are uniquely the way they are is to find out but feminists do have a decent bit of knowledge to draw from that is always dismissed in my experience.
Anyway I'm not the smart feminist to be soapboxing and I've probably said something stupid so I'm slink away now. Sorrryyyy going to sleeeeppp.
Edit: aaaa I did the using you but not actually meaning you personally thing. Shit.
I think you've misunderstood me. When I say "traditional" I mean like, this fairytail of many weeks/months of dating before sexy time. It just isn't how it actually works in the real world anymore. People are making out and rubbing bits together within the first few days/week or they're moving on.
The intimacy and romance is built alongside the physicality. If it exists.
There's an unwritten rule about not being too clingy during that time, and if the two people fall for each other then they do, but also you have to not be too clingy too quickly or else it becomes massively unattractive. This is a major hurdle for incels because of course they're massively insecure and that same insecurity causes them to massively overthink everything and become far too emotionally attached too quickly to the point that it makes the other person uncomfortable how they're being.
I don't think it's easier to get laid if you're gay. I think it's easier to get laid if you're into kink and that community happens to almost entirely crossover with kink due to comfort with exploration.
No.
This is practically all of them. They will all tell you just how much life has it out for them with practically no prompting, and it's deeply offputting to most people.
It would be, if they could get their incredible insecurity in check or at least successfully hide it for long enough for someone to see the real person they are.
However, one of the problems with insecurity is that it controls you in a way that causes you to act differently. It holds you back, it makes you not say things, or say things you shouldn't, it causes acting out, etc etc. If you can remove insecurity from the situation you end up with a completely different person, one that is attractive assuming they don't say some women-hating bullshit.
News to demis. Just because our fairy nature gives us powers of invisibility we don't entirely control, doesn't mean we don't have a presence in your real world!
like how old? I guess it's never easier than like early 20's
Yeah, it's easy in high school and even easier as an undergrad, but there's a precipitous drop immediately after that, at least for me (though I have to imagine it applies to many other people).
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Tbf, that sounds like a kink community with some problems.
Too many bottoms
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I would argue it's not the sex that is specifically the problem, sex is clumsy for everyone in first experiences. For the incels it's the part before the sex they are erring on. We don't have socialisation classes on what typically occurs before the sex, we only have movies for that and the movies are not actually a reflection of our current reality. They get taught the wrong thing, fail, build up insecurity about it, fail even harder, and then resent society for it. This resentment at society for this makes them uniquely susceptible to the deep hate that the community has now become a hotbed for, including the mass killings carried out by some of them.
If I wanted to turn this around I think my starting point would be movies. Specifically movies focused on inceldom and reforming from it but also followed by a change in the way movies currently teach people these relations in an out of date way that simply isn't reflecting current society.
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Now why do I get the sense that outbursts like this are the exact reason why "The Will to Change" actually needs to be read by the whole forum
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You are advocating for accepting, no, Demanding that those of us who've already been denigrated by these males make space for harmful, non-receptive threats in our circles. Shockingly he/him moment for a them honestly; get the fuck out of my inbox
Like you just skipped right past that "somebody who's gone out of their way to either rebuff or outright denigrate my viewpoints" bit. Wanna debate pervert me all motherfuckin night with lines you could've just skimmed to find something to copy and paste but you didn't read shit I had to say. Motherfucker you are not welcome to get buck with me.
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They went right past what I said, I'm not showing their rote recitation any consideration. This isn't negotiable or debatable, I'm not about allowing hateful, already-proven-harmful toxic-ass dudes in my circles or orbits. Since you and ol' person wants to debate pervert me so hard about it, y'all can do that work, burn y'all hands, and gargle that poison.
I'm past it.
Over reacting. There is no possible way to solve a problem without talking about what the causes of it are.
I also don't agree with you generalising incels as simply all being neurodiverse people, they're not, some might be but the majority? I don't think so. It also means any criticism of incels is ableism and frankly I entirely disagree.