Locking this thread as some of the comments in here are absolutely rancid. No, femmes to not need to risk their safety and accommodate violent misogynists that only want to control and abuse them. It's the responsibility of men to educate themselves and learn the art of truly loving.
A LOT of people in this thread need to join the bell hooks book club on The Will to Change and actually engage with some theory instead of telling women who feel unsafe around incels that they're bigots ackshully for not accepting these poor lonely violent smol beans who are just soooooo oppressed. This shit is why minorities do not feel safe on this site. Yall need to do better.
This thread is a perfect example of incels refusing to take any personal responsibility for an extremist ideology they clung to and one that has lead to multiple mass shootings and killings of minorities.
Yet again men refusing to take ownership or pay the price for their mistakes.
If women had a hate ideology that lead to mass shootings we'd be expected to publicly self and crit and beg for forgiveness.
Literally just classic male entitlement and different rules for them.
Cringe this website allows incels to mask off and play the victims like in this thread.
Wonder how many women have left or made new profiles to hide themselves because of embarrassments like this?
We wouldn't give nazi's, transphobes, fascists, libs space to mask off like this, so why incels? Why do women and enbies have to pay the price again for men's fragility and ignorance?
I deleted an account I made over how fucking uncomfortable the comments in this thread made me feel but why should I be scared away from an apparent safe space by incels with a chip on their shoulder?
And you try to explain it from your position of lived experience and being a literal victim of this and it's either unhinged tantrums, accusations of ableism (because being a misogynist is apparently intrinsic to being ND) or i have to listen to reddit "both sides" smugness, faux intellectualism and accusations of lacking material analysis from some dolt man who thinks letting abusers into their victims spaces is praxis.
Fuck that. Do better hexbear or ban me, both work.
Edit: I've noticed a lot of the incels in this thread have they/them in their names. I have used terms like men and male brained a lot here. I'm really sorry if that offended anyone. It was not my intention to misgender anyone if i had. Guess i didnt think people who disconnected from the gender binary would expect women to be their sex coaches and cry victim over an extremist ideology 🙃 either way I'm genuinely sorry if that has misgendered anyone, also sorry your views are fucked.
Is it fuck, stop trying to paint me as a conservative or brain wormed cos I don't feel sorry for people who hated women for nothing. Soz you felt attacked, you should.
I've seen your comments, you're literally the fucking problem with incels. No self awareness, no feminism, all victim complex.
Miss me with that shit 💅
Projection!!!!!!
Says the person who thinks women should sex coach incels out their victims complexes 🤣
Sorry whos the one who decided woman owe incels that. Thanks for deciding what our bodies and role in this debate is. Lmao.
Unaddressed transphobia? If being disgusted with yours views on women, incels and comfort women is transphobia then sure. Idiot.
I'm not keeping a weirdo with bad energy in my circle when I've spent nearly half my life trying to purge myself of patriarchal brainworms; especially not when said weirdo repeatedly rebuffs my attempts to get him to see right. Like, you can only burn your hands on a hot stove so many times before you decide "y'know what, nah, I'm over it; have a good life-- or as close to one as you can ig". You are who you chill with; and I'm not tryna wake up with fleas.
The only people I keep around me are those tryna grow and self-improve. If an incel actually wants to get on that motion, cool, more power to him; but I'm not wasting breath or effort on somebody who's gone out of their way to either rebuff or outright denigrate my viewpoints.
I have bad news for you, you're an addict, you can't live without oxygen. Take your oxygen away and you start getting all worked up about it like your life depends on it smh
This is a powerful article. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. The author is correct. A lot of women put up with stuff they shouldn't, but feel constrained by societal expectations, resources, ability, and just plain brainwashing. I had a conversation about it with one of my male neighbors, recently.
The rise of "inceldom" as a social phenomena was inevitable with the destruction of non-transactional social spaces and general alienation brought about by capitalism.
It's tempting to think that these people are struggling exactly because they're horrible misogynists, but historically tons of misogynistic people have still had sex and relationships. Bluntly, even the Golden State Killer was married at one point, and had children.
Life is materially and socially worse for a lot of people. I've made this same post basically every time this comes up, but where are the places where people can just hang out publicly, without being harassed by the cops or expected to spend money they might not afford to spend, just to socialize? If you cannot meaningfully socialize, you have little hope of getting a relationship or even just sex.
For many USians at least (can't speak for other countries) dating starts to suck waaaay more ass once you're out of school. The post-school options people are generally aware of are: Dating apps (which suck ass and seem to be a potent vector for extreme mental illness), bars and clubs (which cost money and suck if you don't drink or you have anxiety about being compromised around strangers), and that's basically it.
Lack of social spaces necessarily produces lack of sex and relationships. It will get worse before it gets better.
The rise of "inceldom" as a social phenomena was inevitable with the destruction of non-transactional social spaces and general alienation brought about by capitalism.
This is a great point and I agree, but I think it’s also worth discussing that a big contributing problem to this with cishet dating culture is how that transactional mindset persists outside of transactional spaces and then will go completely unexamined even in spaces like this one. Cishet men seem much more driven to attach their sense of happiness and self worth to sex and dating, which leads to scenarios where women end up being viewed as simply a means to achieving a personal goal. Then, when women rightfully reject this and those personal goals go unmet, women get blamed for withholding what cishet men feel they need to become normal, well-functioning happy people.
It’s almost like cishets are encouraged to treat dating like collecting points or winning achievements badges instead of just spending time with others because you enjoy their company. Cishet women also face pressure on this I think, but less related to sex and more related to long term dating, marriage, family, etc. In both cases, and especially with cishet men and sex, this seems very unhealthy and it would be much better to focus on one’s happiness and self worth first instead of relying on some stranger to magically fix you.
Lack of social spaces necessarily produces lack of sex and relationships. It will get worse before it gets better.
I feel this every day
I wonder how long it will be before the "it gets better" stage. Will I be so old that I don't even have a desire to date or get sex?
but gaming and other online locations like chats is also a social space and these very guys go to great effort to ensure it is not even tolerable much less welcoming to women.
It's objectively an inferior form of socialization compared to real life (brain releases different chemicals in the two scenarios). It's not a full substitute
Ok, before this becomes another endless comment chain, let's get one thing out of the way. Most people on this instance do not use the term "incel" for people who are just literally involuntary celibates. We are not into this virgin-shaming BS here, when we say "incel", we usually mean involuntarily celibate people who are ideologically comitted to incel / manosphere / redpill ideology. If you write that group off as just the "very small fraction of psychopthic forever-misogynists", you've missed the entire point of the argument you just got into.
If you don't, i'd genuinely like to know how you get through to these people, because in my experience, they very much can't be "brought out of it with some guidance and hand-holding", their entire online cult revolves around inoculating them against any attempt to help them and trust me, i've tried that over and over again back when these people didn't even call themselves incels, but used words like "permavirgin" or "foreveralone" for themselves. If you have found some miracle cure to reach out to actual incels, not just to people who never had a date in their late twenties, but the ones who've fallen down the rabbit hole into the incel community, then please share that, i'd honestly like to know.
Get a grip.
Incels didn't become irrational women hating misogynists because of radicalisation.
They became incels because that ideology validated their already existing irrational misogyny and they allowed themselves to enter a ideology they should know is extremist because it validated their victim complex and irrational hatred of women.
That group have ruined women's lives, people who will never recover from the damage caused by a bunch of self absorbed victim complexes justifying their bigotry with "boohoo i didn't get the trad wife or a free pass to success i was promised for being born amab" and now you want us to let that shit slide? Not including the fact we worked ten times harder than men, get a job and then incels blame DEI or hiring practises favouring us for why they lost (not our effort or skill) and then hate us even more.
Lmao how about incels grow the fuck up, address what misogyny lead them into a violent extremist ideology and then and only then when they've owned their shitty behaviour can they try to re-enter women's spaces but by the looks of your comment and everyone else's y'all would rather cry about how you should be given another chance and how it wasnt your fault vs taking some actual fucking responsibility.
Ever single "reformed" incel apologises for what they did, what they thought and refuses to accept any personal responsibility for their unhinged misogyny that lead them down that path and then they jump into threads like this and cry about literally the same shit everyone goes through as their justification for it and how they are allowed to be forgiven for their extremism and then have the nerve to be misogynistic and self absorbed proving they literally haven't addressed shit.
Cry more. If you irrationally blame women for societies failures don't act surprised when we don't trust you in our spaces idiot.
"PeOpLe DoN't UnDeRsTaNd InCeLs"
No, incels don't understand themselves. People died and had their lives ruined by this ideology, a majority of white male mass shootings are linked with this ideology and we are the ones being judgemental bullies after you demand us (the victims) to forgive and tolerate you?
Peak fucking entitlement.
All this thread shows me is that incels feel like the biggest sad victims in the world and that's so funny when you've had every privilege we as women don't and you still fail and think being an extremist is a fine reaction.
With a take like this it's clear your mum had to drop you off and pick you up from school.
Lmao says the failson with a literal fascist as their countries leader 🤣
Hahaha material analysis from the dickhead apologising for a hate group. You are literally chastising women for pushing back at men who abused us forcing themselves into our spaces. The only material analysis you clearly have is the curves on your cum covered anime figurines.
You will never be able to understand the damage this unhinged main character bs does to women. Never. Yet you tell us we are the judgemental bullies? YOU ARE FORCING US TO EDUCATE OUR ABUSERS YOU DUMB FUCK.
You are so fucking systemically misogynistic that nobody could explain to you how shit of a take you are.
Also I'm not a yank, and imagine saying "being mean to misogyinists is why misogynists wont stop being misogynists" and thinking you are a serious human being with a serious "material analysis".
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Sorry pal, usually God awful takes like that present with the above.
It's so fucking easy for you to decide women have to play a part in educating our abusers as a man. Dead fucking simple to decide that for us? Have you literally no fucking self awareness.
Yet again we speak our minds and men ignore us and bulldoze our point with their take on OUR existence.
There's several women havs pointed out it's rooted in misogyny and objectification in this very thread. There are reeeems of theory by women on male violence. Every bit is ignored by people like you cos of some sympathy for extremists.
Why is it when men misbehave its our job to fix you? Why can't you fix yourselves?
Incels and men judging by yourself can not be talked to, will not listen and will never respect us and that's clear as day by this thread and your insistence that you are right despite being not a woman or an incel.
Every time any women who literally knows why she rejected an incel tells them why, it's ignored because they'd rather blame us or apologise for their bad behaviour.
No it's men's job to break through this ingrained misogyny, we as women have tried, incels doubled down. Can't help those who don't want to help themselves and certainly not when they abused us.
I still feel we are arguing over different things. There are young confused boys who are struggling with life and adulthood and a section of men are telling them that at least a part of their problems is coming from how women behave. Then there's your middle aged uncle who hits his wife. Two very different groups. The latter cannot be saved, no arguments from me.
How about we compromise and say that other men use 'elder brotherly guidance' and peer pressure to pull them out while women keep their distance from them. Is that acceptable?
And of those confused young boys only one group choses to blame women and join an extremist group that has killed people because of its views.
That's not normal and it's not something to be treated like it's normal. It's insane.
That is literally perfect thank you <3
I have helped out quite a few younger men who looked up to me and I did "fix" most of them. I can't say how much of that was me versus the maturity that comes with age. There are ones I couldn't, whom I don't talk to anymore and wouldn't try again either. But I do believe that a big chunk, if not the majority, can improve because I've seen it happen myself.
And women can do a lot here if they want. Three girls simultaneously saying "eww" or "that's very uncool" does way more damage to a young man's confidence than you realise. You have to let it cook.
Reactionary ideologies like these prey on the vulnerable. And we cannot just abandon all vulnerable. They can be communism's biggest allies because they are usually the most exploited.
Well that's wholesome but it's not your job and also are they addressing how they view women? It's okay to deprogram as an incel but if you haven't addressed the subconscious or conscious misogyny that lead to that extremism then it's a plaster on a wound, not a cure i feel.
Dude we have tried, I can't speak for anyone else but I didn't abandon the men in group because they were incels, we fought to reign in their shit, we educated them on what women actually look for, we gave them everything other men in this chat have claimed will help incels and from experience it never ever works because when someone is in an ideology that blames women they inherently don't trust us/value us/value our opinion because they are already blaming us.
In fact trying to give incels a chance is what lead to several of my friends being stalked, harassed and bullied and that's not discussing my own experience.
In the end someone in this thread literally suggested the idea of sex coaches for incels, that's insane. That is a disconnect that I can't begin to discuss. We do not need comfort women for incels to stop being hateful.
That is an unfortunate experience. And the comfort women idea is just eww. I've only seen this idea floated in far-right circles.
Multiple people in this thread my dude. This is what happens when extremism isn't shut down.
Edit: I was so harsh earlier, I want to say sorry. This whole thread was horrific to read and genuinely terrifying. Watching men decide for me or other women that we owe our abusers time to reform them and we are the problem for pushing back. It's a lot. Its scary, it shows men haven't learn the basic lesson we've being screaming for centuries "stop making decisions for us and taking away our agency". A key lesson a lot of people in this thread could do with internalising imo.
I think what you are doing to help big brother these peeps is great honestly.
I just worry that without condemning it as the extremism it is, we get comments making a serious suggestion for sex coaches for incels in a supposed safe space for leftists. How does that happen?
It's okay. You don't need to apologise. I was also missing an important point.
Soz you think that cos you creep women out you are entitled to your own personal comfort women.
I think a good portion of people here did not read the article. The insults about Destiny's masculinity are gross, and an example of what the article is talking about.
I feel this is mostly a criticism of "right-wing anti-inceldom", I hope no one farther left of an average Reddit user has to read this. I think not reproducing toxic masculinity should be obvious?
Left-wing anti-inceldom should still be practiced ofc
IMO this just comes across as Feminist tailism. Are incels (as in the original definition of incels, not Tate adjacent men) failed by the patriarchy? Yes. Is it correct to still reject them, keep them away due to the danger they pose? Also yes. To any degree to which incels have ever organized with each other as communities of men who are frustrated with being denied their slice of the pie, they're a reactionary force and opposing them has been the right move.
Incels represent a crack in the reality of Patriarchy. They are a reactionary departure from its logic. In rejecting the project of claiming women, abusing them, and upholding their place as men, they negate patriarchy, yet they are far from a progressive splinter since they still define themselves in the shadow of what they actually expect masculine self actualization to mean, doing those exact same things. The negation of the negation of the original incel is the current incel, the Tate adjacent types, that actually come back to hegemonic masculinity with redoubled force, the "sigma males" who are even more antisocial than the prototypical patriarchs the original incel failed to become.
If the feminist movement attracted incels through its promise of abolishing the patriarchy, they would have to abandon the label and radicalize their view of gender. It's on them to catch up; slowing down and trying to make space for them inside feminism is putting the cart before the horse.
Did you actually read the article here, or just the headline/first couple lines?
The actual conclusion presented by it, honestly doesn't seem that distinct from your own.
long quote
The current violent incel communities frame themselves as despised sons, who have been denied the fruits of patriarchy. And anti-incels…frame incels as despised sons, who have been denied the fruits of patriarchy. Incels think they’ve been treated unfairly and anti incels think they’ve been treated fairly. But that’s a cosmetic difference. The core agreement is that men who aren’t racking up points in patriarchy by dating women are failing as men.
That core agreement is false. The problem with incels is that they are violent misogynists who have created an identity around violent misogyny. The problem with incels is not that they have failed as men.
Because, contra patriarchy, there is no way to fail at being a man. There are lots of ways of being a man, and none of them leave you being more or less of a man. You can fail at being a good person by trying to be patriarchy’s idea of a man—but that’s a significantly different issue.
I did read the whole article and found the conclusion to be pretty decent, but I wrote my comment because it didn't sit right with me that the article never explicitly rejected the idea that feminism needs to carve out space for incels now.
It's kind of sickening me that people on this forum will quote bell hooks in favor of forcibly carving out spaces for potential mass murderers in metaphorically-crowded theaters tbh. The more what you said about "not rejecting the idea" rattles around my brain the more it's sticking out to me
"The devil can cite scripture to his own purpose", but theoretical instead of theological
Take out the weaponised socialist rhetoric from a lot of comments in this thread and it boils down to:
"If you don't let incels into women's spaces and tolerate our irrational misogyny/victim complex then you're actually the bigot"
like they're the biggest victims on the planet 🤣Letting people who built their identity (and still cling to it clearly) around hating and blaming women into women's spaces. How could that go wrong?
But incels will always race any other group or minority to the bottom because they don't have the self awareness to realise they need to self crit and grow the fuck up 🤷♀️
Yeah I mean I guess people just have that Christian redemption/forgiveness itch that makes for a good story and feels nice, but is atrocious when you try to apply it as a tactical approach in a political movement. For every incel the left can gain by going back and pandering to them, it loses a dozen women or enby folks. Those guys can join the left if some good smaritan helps them deal with their own issues but it's so wild to land at the conclusion that it's somehow feminists' responsibility to put themselves in danger with them.
For every incel the left can gain by going back and pandering to them, it loses a dozen women or enby folks.
That's literally happened cos of this thread.
Plenty of people are beaten down by society, only a small group of misogynistic men who felt entitled to a woman by birth congregated to that ideology.
Society failed them and they still chose to despise women for it. That was their personal choice. Not radicalisation.
Even now they clearly see us as objects still.
And then they think it's normal to apologise for it and call themselves the victims of "grooming" and how we need to understand them?
No lmao, they hated women and blamed us, then an ideology that legitimised their irrational misogynistic hated of women appeared and they jumped on it and now they're remorseful cos they're justifiably despised and lonley as a result. Fuck around find out. Boohoo cry for me I don't fucking care.
They chose to cling to something that legitimised them. Something that has been ruining women's lives since day 1 and potentially traumatised an entire generation (not single women i know isnt worried about being killed by an incel or something that spawned off it) and now they want us to give them a chance?! Hahahahahahahaha
Maybe they should do some self crit but that's asking way too much of people who are addicted to feeling sorry for themselves and playing the victim.
Lmao next hexbear be strugglin' over whether we should let men who assaulted women into the gang cos they "were victims of radicalisation" (oh wait we are).
In rejecting the project of claiming women, abusing them, and upholding their place as men, they negate patriarchy
Do they actually reject these things? My impression is they yearn for those things but have convinced themselve it's not for them (in a I am not one of god's chosen sort of sense).
They don't reject them as goals worth pursuing in general, but generally have given up hope of ever achieving them for themselves.
Not a bad article. It's important to make the distinction that, while some people are misogynists and don't have sex, those traits aren't exclusively found together. Some people who are technically incels are otherwise normal, and a lot of misogynists are in relationships. Belittling a man for not having sex reinforces patriarchal ideals that not having sex as a man makes you a failure.
All that said, there are a lot of very loud misogynist incels online, and they deserve what they've brought on themselves. It's just good to target your insults in such a way that their misogyny is the focus.
I'm guilty of saying "I have a bf" as a knee jerk reaction to random guys invading my space like inviting themselves to sit with me or something ngl.
But just as much I don't bring my bf up around guys who give off a particularly energy. I'm scared they'll lash out if they find out I'm "not theirs for the taking" and instead i just get away as quickly as I can.
Every friend i have who dates men has a story like this.
(god I realise that sounds like him lmao)Don't know how I feel about having to engage and teach feminism to the later group when I'm scared to even be honest around them.
I think it should be the place of more privileged and less vulnerable people (namely cis men) to do these things. And regardless I really hope the article isn't referring to hating misogynistic men in general, just using insults related to enforcing toxic masculinity.
If the article is trying to make a case against hating or isolating oneself from misogynistic people in general than it can fuck off. Hate is justified with these kinds of people
I think you shoulr just beat them with a bat like Aubrey when they get within 3pft of you, like an AoE trigger
You can practice by ending my misery
Here, take this bat
I think nowadays the term incel has long been divorced from the literal "involuntary celibate" definition
People like Andrew Tate and Destiny gives off so much incel energy despite probably having a higher body count than 99% of men
There’s no way Destiny’s body count goes beyond counting on one hand
I agree, there's no way Destiny's body count goes beyond his hand.
I'd be lying if I said I was never an incel, dating can be extremely hard for an introvert. I was never the misogynistic type though even if I was frustrated and wondering what's wrong with me. Misogynists will hate women whether they have sex or not, and they deserve equal hatred. It's also very true that the sexual activity and dating life of men is sadly correlated to their value as a man by the patriarchic system. It's perfecly valid to have difficulty in dating or not wanting to date at all as a man.
Looking back there's definitely a version of myself that could have become a misogynist incel if I had a different upbringing/role models/view on life and blamed women for not dating me instead of (correctly) identifying myself as the problem (low self esteem, depression, etc).
Still struggling with my own issues but I sure as hell don't blame women (or anyone else except maybe the bourgeoisie) for my own inability to develop romantic relationships.
blamed women for not dating me instead of (correctly) identifying myself as the problem (low self esteem, depression, etc)
I don't think you should blame women, but isn't it the case that society provides fucked up standards for both men and women to be judged against, and that trickles down to some individuals being socially ostracized? Maybe it was all your fault, but that's not something that can be generalized.
That and you really come across as blaming yourself for your depression. Maybe you were just a miserable loser and it was just a mindset problem, but having a mental disorder is nothing to blame yourself for.
That and you really come across as blaming yourself for your depression.
Maybe I could have phrased it better, I'm not blaming myself for being depressed, that's just luck of the draw/the horrifying reality of living in this world, but staying in and avoiding all human contact isn't exactly conducive to meeting people, let alone forming deeper relationships. So I guess I'm blaming depression itself for it, and that was exacerbated by capitalism.
Not to make light of it but I almost miss my old highschool depression that was all self loathing instead of this pit of grief but I'm going to stop myself from traumadumping here lol
Maybe you were just a miserable loser
Hey don't call me out
I was offering it mainly because I thought it wasn't the case. People usually don't spend significant portions of their life in a funk without there being some diagnosable mental problem involved (whether inborn, traumagenic, or otherwise).
You're not just a miserable loser
and I like your posts.People usually don't spend significant portions of their life in a funk without there being some diagnosable mental problem involved (whether inborn, traumagenic, or otherwise).
I definitely have mental problems, but I don't think anything out there can help me (including therapy) and I don't know what to do anymore.
I certainly can't help you. I think one thing that is good about therapists is that, even if talking to them doesn't help inherently, they can often use their great amount of knowledge about you to recommend something that might help you more, like psychiatry or support groups.
But people have the ability to change for the better, they always do until they die, and that includes you. As a stranger on the internet, I have no idea how to help you, but I am certain that you can be helped because you're a human who can communicate and take in new information.
I was in the same boat. The misogyny turned me away, and the fact that I'm actually aroace and had different ideas of what a relationship and sexuality entails. Figuring out the latter was what ultimately brought me out of the depression cove of incel-adjacent spaces.
Still, it's lonely. There exist concepts like queer/quasiplatonic relationships, which do sound nice, but will never happen. Close friendships are unlikely now that I have a full time jobs as well.
To quote Tony Soprano: "What you gonna do?"
I do have online friends, who I appreciate a lot.
I still remember when incel referred exclusively to the pro-SA demons on 8chan and a short list of other forums
it just makes my skin crawl
