Locking this thread as some of the comments in here are absolutely rancid. No, femmes to not need to risk their safety and accommodate violent misogynists that only want to control and abuse them. It's the responsibility of men to educate themselves and learn the art of truly loving.
A LOT of people in this thread need to join the bell hooks book club on The Will to Change and actually engage with some theory instead of telling women who feel unsafe around incels that they're bigots ackshully for not accepting these poor lonely violent smol beans who are just soooooo oppressed. This shit is why minorities do not feel safe on this site. Yall need to do better.
IMO this just comes across as Feminist tailism. Are incels (as in the original definition of incels, not Tate adjacent men) failed by the patriarchy? Yes. Is it correct to still reject them, keep them away due to the danger they pose? Also yes. To any degree to which incels have ever organized with each other as communities of men who are frustrated with being denied their slice of the pie, they're a reactionary force and opposing them has been the right move.
Incels represent a crack in the reality of Patriarchy. They are a reactionary departure from its logic. In rejecting the project of claiming women, abusing them, and upholding their place as men, they negate patriarchy, yet they are far from a progressive splinter since they still define themselves in the shadow of what they actually expect masculine self actualization to mean, doing those exact same things. The negation of the negation of the original incel is the current incel, the Tate adjacent types, that actually come back to hegemonic masculinity with redoubled force, the "sigma males" who are even more antisocial than the prototypical patriarchs the original incel failed to become.
If the feminist movement attracted incels through its promise of abolishing the patriarchy, they would have to abandon the label and radicalize their view of gender. It's on them to catch up; slowing down and trying to make space for them inside feminism is putting the cart before the horse.
In rejecting the project of claiming women, abusing them, and upholding their place as men, they negate patriarchy
Do they actually reject these things? My impression is they yearn for those things but have convinced themselve it's not for them (in a I am not one of god's chosen sort of sense).
They don't reject them as goals worth pursuing in general, but generally have given up hope of ever achieving them for themselves.
Did you actually read the article here, or just the headline/first couple lines?
The actual conclusion presented by it, honestly doesn't seem that distinct from your own.
long quote
The current violent incel communities frame themselves as despised sons, who have been denied the fruits of patriarchy. And anti-incels…frame incels as despised sons, who have been denied the fruits of patriarchy. Incels think they’ve been treated unfairly and anti incels think they’ve been treated fairly. But that’s a cosmetic difference. The core agreement is that men who aren’t racking up points in patriarchy by dating women are failing as men.
That core agreement is false. The problem with incels is that they are violent misogynists who have created an identity around violent misogyny. The problem with incels is not that they have failed as men.
Because, contra patriarchy, there is no way to fail at being a man. There are lots of ways of being a man, and none of them leave you being more or less of a man. You can fail at being a good person by trying to be patriarchy’s idea of a man—but that’s a significantly different issue.
I did read the whole article and found the conclusion to be pretty decent, but I wrote my comment because it didn't sit right with me that the article never explicitly rejected the idea that feminism needs to carve out space for incels now.
Yeah I mean I guess people just have that Christian redemption/forgiveness itch that makes for a good story and feels nice, but is atrocious when you try to apply it as a tactical approach in a political movement. For every incel the left can gain by going back and pandering to them, it loses a dozen women or enby folks. Those guys can join the left if some good smaritan helps them deal with their own issues but it's so wild to land at the conclusion that it's somehow feminists' responsibility to put themselves in danger with them.
For every incel the left can gain by going back and pandering to them, it loses a dozen women or enby folks.
That's literally happened cos of this thread.
Plenty of people are beaten down by society, only a small group of misogynistic men who felt entitled to a woman by birth congregated to that ideology.
Society failed them and they still chose to despise women for it. That was their personal choice. Not radicalisation.
Even now they clearly see us as objects still.
And then they think it's normal to apologise for it and call themselves the victims of "grooming" and how we need to understand them?
No lmao, they hated women and blamed us, then an ideology that legitimised their irrational misogynistic hated of women appeared and they jumped on it and now they're remorseful cos they're justifiably despised and lonley as a result. Fuck around find out. Boohoo cry for me I don't fucking care.
They chose to cling to something that legitimised them. Something that has been ruining women's lives since day 1 and potentially traumatised an entire generation (not single women i know isnt worried about being killed by an incel or something that spawned off it) and now they want us to give them a chance?! Hahahahahahahaha
Maybe they should do some self crit but that's asking way too much of people who are addicted to feeling sorry for themselves and playing the victim.
Lmao next hexbear be strugglin' over whether we should let men who assaulted women into the gang cos they "were victims of radicalisation" (oh wait we are).
Take out the weaponised socialist rhetoric from a lot of comments in this thread and it boils down to:
"If you don't let incels into women's spaces and tolerate our irrational misogyny/victim complex then you're actually the bigot"
like they're the biggest victims on the planet 🤣Letting people who built their identity (and still cling to it clearly) around hating and blaming women into women's spaces. How could that go wrong?
But incels will always race any other group or minority to the bottom because they don't have the self awareness to realise they need to self crit and grow the fuck up 🤷♀️
The rise of "inceldom" as a social phenomena was inevitable with the destruction of non-transactional social spaces and general alienation brought about by capitalism.
It's tempting to think that these people are struggling exactly because they're horrible misogynists, but historically tons of misogynistic people have still had sex and relationships. Bluntly, even the Golden State Killer was married at one point, and had children.
Life is materially and socially worse for a lot of people. I've made this same post basically every time this comes up, but where are the places where people can just hang out publicly, without being harassed by the cops or expected to spend money they might not afford to spend, just to socialize? If you cannot meaningfully socialize, you have little hope of getting a relationship or even just sex.
For many USians at least (can't speak for other countries) dating starts to suck waaaay more ass once you're out of school. The post-school options people are generally aware of are: Dating apps (which suck ass and seem to be a potent vector for extreme mental illness), bars and clubs (which cost money and suck if you don't drink or you have anxiety about being compromised around strangers), and that's basically it.
Lack of social spaces necessarily produces lack of sex and relationships. It will get worse before it gets better.
but gaming and other online locations like chats is also a social space and these very guys go to great effort to ensure it is not even tolerable much less welcoming to women.
It's objectively an inferior form of socialization compared to real life (brain releases different chemicals in the two scenarios). It's not a full substitute
Lack of social spaces necessarily produces lack of sex and relationships. It will get worse before it gets better.
I feel this every day
I wonder how long it will be before the "it gets better" stage. Will I be so old that I don't even have a desire to date or get sex?
The rise of "inceldom" as a social phenomena was inevitable with the destruction of non-transactional social spaces and general alienation brought about by capitalism.
This is a great point and I agree, but I think it’s also worth discussing that a big contributing problem to this with cishet dating culture is how that transactional mindset persists outside of transactional spaces and then will go completely unexamined even in spaces like this one. Cishet men seem much more driven to attach their sense of happiness and self worth to sex and dating, which leads to scenarios where women end up being viewed as simply a means to achieving a personal goal. Then, when women rightfully reject this and those personal goals go unmet, women get blamed for withholding what cishet men feel they need to become normal, well-functioning happy people.
It’s almost like cishets are encouraged to treat dating like collecting points or winning achievements badges instead of just spending time with others because you enjoy their company. Cishet women also face pressure on this I think, but less related to sex and more related to long term dating, marriage, family, etc. In both cases, and especially with cishet men and sex, this seems very unhealthy and it would be much better to focus on one’s happiness and self worth first instead of relying on some stranger to magically fix you.
I think nowadays the term incel has long been divorced from the literal "involuntary celibate" definition
People like Andrew Tate and Destiny gives off so much incel energy despite probably having a higher body count than 99% of men
There’s no way Destiny’s body count goes beyond counting on one hand
I'm guilty of saying "I have a bf" as a knee jerk reaction to random guys invading my space like inviting themselves to sit with me or something ngl.
But just as much I don't bring my bf up around guys who give off a particularly energy. I'm scared they'll lash out if they find out I'm "not theirs for the taking" and instead i just get away as quickly as I can.
Every friend i have who dates men has a story like this.
(god I realise that sounds like him lmao)Don't know how I feel about having to engage and teach feminism to the later group when I'm scared to even be honest around them.
I think you shoulr just beat them with a bat like Aubrey when they get within 3pft of you, like an AoE trigger
You can practice by ending my misery
Here, take this bat
I think it should be the place of more privileged and less vulnerable people (namely cis men) to do these things. And regardless I really hope the article isn't referring to hating misogynistic men in general, just using insults related to enforcing toxic masculinity.
If the article is trying to make a case against hating or isolating oneself from misogynistic people in general than it can fuck off. Hate is justified with these kinds of people
I'd be lying if I said I was never an incel, dating can be extremely hard for an introvert. I was never the misogynistic type though even if I was frustrated and wondering what's wrong with me. Misogynists will hate women whether they have sex or not, and they deserve equal hatred. It's also very true that the sexual activity and dating life of men is sadly correlated to their value as a man by the patriarchic system. It's perfecly valid to have difficulty in dating or not wanting to date at all as a man.
Looking back there's definitely a version of myself that could have become a misogynist incel if I had a different upbringing/role models/view on life and blamed women for not dating me instead of (correctly) identifying myself as the problem (low self esteem, depression, etc).
Still struggling with my own issues but I sure as hell don't blame women (or anyone else except maybe the bourgeoisie) for my own inability to develop romantic relationships.
blamed women for not dating me instead of (correctly) identifying myself as the problem (low self esteem, depression, etc)
I don't think you should blame women, but isn't it the case that society provides fucked up standards for both men and women to be judged against, and that trickles down to some individuals being socially ostracized? Maybe it was all your fault, but that's not something that can be generalized.
That and you really come across as blaming yourself for your depression. Maybe you were just a miserable loser and it was just a mindset problem, but having a mental disorder is nothing to blame yourself for.
That and you really come across as blaming yourself for your depression.
Maybe I could have phrased it better, I'm not blaming myself for being depressed, that's just luck of the draw/the horrifying reality of living in this world, but staying in and avoiding all human contact isn't exactly conducive to meeting people, let alone forming deeper relationships. So I guess I'm blaming depression itself for it, and that was exacerbated by capitalism.
Not to make light of it but I almost miss my old highschool depression that was all self loathing instead of this pit of grief but I'm going to stop myself from traumadumping here lol
Maybe you were just a miserable loser
Hey don't call me out
I was offering it mainly because I thought it wasn't the case. People usually don't spend significant portions of their life in a funk without there being some diagnosable mental problem involved (whether inborn, traumagenic, or otherwise).
You're not just a miserable loser
and I like your posts.People usually don't spend significant portions of their life in a funk without there being some diagnosable mental problem involved (whether inborn, traumagenic, or otherwise).
I definitely have mental problems, but I don't think anything out there can help me (including therapy) and I don't know what to do anymore.
I certainly can't help you. I think one thing that is good about therapists is that, even if talking to them doesn't help inherently, they can often use their great amount of knowledge about you to recommend something that might help you more, like psychiatry or support groups.
But people have the ability to change for the better, they always do until they die, and that includes you. As a stranger on the internet, I have no idea how to help you, but I am certain that you can be helped because you're a human who can communicate and take in new information.
I was in the same boat. The misogyny turned me away, and the fact that I'm actually aroace and had different ideas of what a relationship and sexuality entails. Figuring out the latter was what ultimately brought me out of the depression cove of incel-adjacent spaces.
Still, it's lonely. There exist concepts like queer/quasiplatonic relationships, which do sound nice, but will never happen. Close friendships are unlikely now that I have a full time jobs as well.
To quote Tony Soprano: "What you gonna do?"
I do have online friends, who I appreciate a lot.
I don't talk about it much but I was a late bloomer and didn't sleep with someone until I was 25 and I haven't been (outside of a few dates) with anyone since and I'm well over 30. This was a good read. I often beat myself up that technically I'm an incel, even though I'm not interested in seeing anyone or wanting sex.
even though I'm not interested in seeing anyone or wanting sex.
Wouldn't that be volcel, and thus not incel, if you aren't interested?
It's perfectly fine to not want it, the asexual community calls out this societal standard as "compulsory sexuality"
It's perfectly fine to not want it, the asexual community calls out this societal standard as "compulsory sexuality"
Interesting. I wonder where getting off though fits in with the whole volcel asexual community as I still do that.
Asexuality is about attraction, not about libido. Some ace people get themselves off regularly. Some don’t. There’s a lot of reasons to engage in sexual activity other than sexual attraction.
to my understanding masturbation is still relatively common amongst asexual people
e: the consequences of never refreshing before posting
I have bad news for you, you're an addict, you can't live without oxygen. Take your oxygen away and you start getting all worked up about it like your life depends on it smh
Get a grip.
Incels didn't become irrational women hating misogynists because of radicalisation.
They became incels because that ideology validated their already existing irrational misogyny and they allowed themselves to enter a ideology they should know is extremist because it validated their victim complex and irrational hatred of women.
That group have ruined women's lives, people who will never recover from the damage caused by a bunch of self absorbed victim complexes justifying their bigotry with "boohoo i didn't get the trad wife or a free pass to success i was promised for being born amab" and now you want us to let that shit slide? Not including the fact we worked ten times harder than men, get a job and then incels blame DEI or hiring practises favouring us for why they lost (not our effort or skill) and then hate us even more.
Lmao how about incels grow the fuck up, address what misogyny lead them into a violent extremist ideology and then and only then when they've owned their shitty behaviour can they try to re-enter women's spaces but by the looks of your comment and everyone else's y'all would rather cry about how you should be given another chance and how it wasnt your fault vs taking some actual fucking responsibility.
Ever single "reformed" incel apologises for what they did, what they thought and refuses to accept any personal responsibility for their unhinged misogyny that lead them down that path and then they jump into threads like this and cry about literally the same shit everyone goes through as their justification for it and how they are allowed to be forgiven for their extremism and then have the nerve to be misogynistic and self absorbed proving they literally haven't addressed shit.
Cry more. If you irrationally blame women for societies failures don't act surprised when we don't trust you in our spaces idiot.
"PeOpLe DoN't UnDeRsTaNd InCeLs"
No, incels don't understand themselves. People died and had their lives ruined by this ideology, a majority of white male mass shootings are linked with this ideology and we are the ones being judgemental bullies after you demand us (the victims) to forgive and tolerate you?
Peak fucking entitlement.
All this thread shows me is that incels feel like the biggest sad victims in the world and that's so funny when you've had every privilege we as women don't and you still fail and think being an extremist is a fine reaction.
With a take like this it's clear your mum had to drop you off and pick you up from school.
Lmao says the failson with a literal fascist as their countries leader 🤣
Hahaha material analysis from the dickhead apologising for a hate group. You are literally chastising women for pushing back at men who abused us forcing themselves into our spaces. The only material analysis you clearly have is the curves on your cum covered anime figurines.
You will never be able to understand the damage this unhinged main character bs does to women. Never. Yet you tell us we are the judgemental bullies? YOU ARE FORCING US TO EDUCATE OUR ABUSERS YOU DUMB FUCK.
You are so fucking systemically misogynistic that nobody could explain to you how shit of a take you are.
Also I'm not a yank, and imagine saying "being mean to misogyinists is why misogynists wont stop being misogynists" and thinking you are a serious human being with a serious "material analysis".
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Sorry pal, usually God awful takes like that present with the above.
It's so fucking easy for you to decide women have to play a part in educating our abusers as a man. Dead fucking simple to decide that for us? Have you literally no fucking self awareness.
Yet again we speak our minds and men ignore us and bulldoze our point with their take on OUR existence.
There's several women havs pointed out it's rooted in misogyny and objectification in this very thread. There are reeeems of theory by women on male violence. Every bit is ignored by people like you cos of some sympathy for extremists.
Why is it when men misbehave its our job to fix you? Why can't you fix yourselves?
Incels and men judging by yourself can not be talked to, will not listen and will never respect us and that's clear as day by this thread and your insistence that you are right despite being not a woman or an incel.
Every time any women who literally knows why she rejected an incel tells them why, it's ignored because they'd rather blame us or apologise for their bad behaviour.
No it's men's job to break through this ingrained misogyny, we as women have tried, incels doubled down. Can't help those who don't want to help themselves and certainly not when they abused us.
I still feel we are arguing over different things. There are young confused boys who are struggling with life and adulthood and a section of men are telling them that at least a part of their problems is coming from how women behave. Then there's your middle aged uncle who hits his wife. Two very different groups. The latter cannot be saved, no arguments from me.
How about we compromise and say that other men use 'elder brotherly guidance' and peer pressure to pull them out while women keep their distance from them. Is that acceptable?
And of those confused young boys only one group choses to blame women and join an extremist group that has killed people because of its views.
That's not normal and it's not something to be treated like it's normal. It's insane.
That is literally perfect thank you <3
Ok, before this becomes another endless comment chain, let's get one thing out of the way. Most people on this instance do not use the term "incel" for people who are just literally involuntary celibates. We are not into this virgin-shaming BS here, when we say "incel", we usually mean involuntarily celibate people who are ideologically comitted to incel / manosphere / redpill ideology. If you write that group off as just the "very small fraction of psychopthic forever-misogynists", you've missed the entire point of the argument you just got into.
If you don't, i'd genuinely like to know how you get through to these people, because in my experience, they very much can't be "brought out of it with some guidance and hand-holding", their entire online cult revolves around inoculating them against any attempt to help them and trust me, i've tried that over and over again back when these people didn't even call themselves incels, but used words like "permavirgin" or "foreveralone" for themselves. If you have found some miracle cure to reach out to actual incels, not just to people who never had a date in their late twenties, but the ones who've fallen down the rabbit hole into the incel community, then please share that, i'd honestly like to know.
I think a good portion of people here did not read the article. The insults about Destiny's masculinity are gross, and an example of what the article is talking about.
I still remember when incel referred exclusively to the pro-SA demons on 8chan and a short list of other forums
Not a bad article. It's important to make the distinction that, while some people are misogynists and don't have sex, those traits aren't exclusively found together. Some people who are technically incels are otherwise normal, and a lot of misogynists are in relationships. Belittling a man for not having sex reinforces patriarchal ideals that not having sex as a man makes you a failure.
All that said, there are a lot of very loud misogynist incels online, and they deserve what they've brought on themselves. It's just good to target your insults in such a way that their misogyny is the focus.
I don't get why incels exist tbh when you can go into literally any kink community right now and find 5 people that want to sub for practically anyone in like 10 minutes.
It really strikes me as being at least partially self inflicted, like the sex is just supposed to happen with nothing else involved? It strikes me that there's some sort of knowledge or effort barrier that they refuse to cross or that they don't understand or mistake the correct steps involved in getting from A to B.
I've known (emphasis on the known) a fare few guys who toe'd the incel line if not went all in.
All of them were cute, not one of them was physically undateable like that is even the most important thing (any guys reading its really 100% not). One was even like the hottest guy in our wider group.
All of them were fucking weird about women and blamed women for only liking dickhead guys and not nice guys like them.
It was 100% a them problem.
If they didn't have too high standards and rejected any girls who did look past their bs, they would go for people already taken and it's like WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!
This has been my experience. I actually haven't met an incel who looks as bad as they seem to think they look in order to be undateable, but the personal behaviour and attitudes of the person were not good.
The world of dating is too dangerous for anyone not cis het male and white and who the hell would risk their safety and take a chance on someone who blatantly blames women for their woes when even the more "normal" ones can pop off.
It's just not worth it ever.
They could also spend a modest sum and get off that way. There are at least two major things that I think you're missing:
A lot of them want a partner who they can be emotionally intimate with, not just someone to fuck. A simple proof that doesn't involve us both needing to look at their forums is that they have a popular acronym "KHHV," or "kissless, hand-holdless virgin" which I think is used partly to emphasize their literal distance from women, but also to communicate closeness they are lacking besides the sex. If all I want is to fuck people, what do I give a shit about holding someone's hand? This is also part of why trad shit so easily gained traction there, because it was basically viewed (falsely) as a guarantee to have a partner that you could emotionally invest in and they wouldn't leave you (there are many ways this is wrong, of course)*
The second thing, as I mention in my dumb rant in this thread, is that incel communities are highly predatory cults. They prey on the mentally ill, racial minorities (particularly Asians), and literal children. They take your trauma** and convince you that it's just what the world is for someone like you. It's not about whether you can objectively access sex (again, escorts exist), it's about hating yourself and, through that, hating everyone outside of your new group of "allies".
Also, like, nothing against kink, but a fair number of people -- especially the sexually inexperienced -- are really not into basically any of it. Also I think the huge number of subs is more a gay community thing (I've been told there's a top shortage), but I wouldn't know since I'm one of those vanilla hets.
*While I believe these pieces of evidence do point to my conclusion, I recognize they are unconvincing. The real reason I believe it is because I spent some time on incel boards (I was never an incel) and the level of sentimentality about relationships, about being told "I love you" and so on was off the charts.
**in the former two cases. With the kids, it's just straightforward ideological grooming
A lot of them want a partner who they can be emotionally intimate with, not just someone to fuck. A simple proof that doesn't involve us both needing to look at their forums is that they have a popular acronym "KHHV," or "kissless, hand-holdless virgin" which I think is used partly to emphasize their literal distance from women, but also to communicate closeness they are lacking besides the sex.
The level of intimacy they yearn for is created over months, the sex is usually much earlier. So perhaps part of the problem is that they mentally have the cart before the horse, the order of things that are supposed to happen is incorrect in their heads and therefore they fail the whole dating thing because it doesn't match with the material reality and issues occur interacting with others over this.
The second thing, as I mention in my dumb rant in this thread, is that incel communities are highly predatory cults. They prey on the mentally ill, racial minorities (particularly Asians), and literal children. They take your trauma** and convince you that it's just what the world is for someone like you. It's not about whether you can objectively access sex (again, escorts exist), it's about hating yourself and, through that, hating everyone outside of your new group of "allies".
Yes I agree with the cult aspect.
Also, like, nothing against kink, but a fair number of people -- especially the sexually inexperienced -- are really not into basically any of it. Also I think the huge number of subs is more a gay community thing (I've been told there's a top shortage), but I wouldn't know since I'm one of those vanilla hets.
Yeah so they yearn for a specific kind of traditionally romantic relationship, probably learned from patriarchal television, movies and dramas, which doesn't actually spontaneously exist in the real modern world anymore outside of teenagers or rare random occurrences of two people with chemistry hitting it off. And even then the two people with chemistry get down to fucking before they get down to any kind of deeply involved romantic intimacy after months of building emotional bonds and closeness.
The other side of this is that they're so misogynistic how the fuck do they expect to get that romantically close to someone before they realise how awful they are?
The other side of this is that they're so misogynistic how the fuck do they expect to get that romantically close to someone before they realise how awful they are?
they're stuck in a doom loop of terrible self esteem and self fulfilling prophecy. Anyone from the outside looking in can look at the situation and say "Why don't you just?" but they're trainwrecks, they probably need therapy to escape it. Well that probably works for like pre-2010 normal teenager who is scared of girls and can't get laid type of situation, now we have the fent of inceldom thanks to 4chan or whatever started it. Probably need some sort of detox from the internet plus therapy.
I wouldn't really know since I've only ever had "traditional" relationships, but I'm pretty sure they still exist. Most of the people I know (which is now mid twenties at the youngest up to near 40) are in romantic relationships or want to be, it's not just hook-ups out there. Like, don't get me wrong, thinking about how to find a way to get into a romantic relationship again makes me want to CW, but that's partly because it was already really difficult for someone like me and it's getting more difficult as I get older . . . Anyway, of all the things we can blame them for, I think not wanting to fuck men and now wanting to, idk, whip and step on people? is really it. Incidentally, one of the veins of discourse in the incel community is basically doing conversion therapy to become gay because they believe that it's way easier on average for a dude to get laid if he's gay. I've never seen someone report that the converted themselves, though.
The other side of this is that they're so misogynistic how the fuck do they expect to get that romantically close to someone before they realise how awful they are?
Well, they didn't become such sickos until after they already had their negative experiences, at which point they've usually given up and made sexual frustration their religion. There's no contradiction in this specific point, even if there's a lot of short-sightedness, dehumanization, reaction, etc.
Edit:
The level of intimacy they yearn for is created over months, the sex is usually much earlier. So perhaps part of the problem is that they mentally have the cart before the horse, the order of things that are supposed to happen is incorrect in their heads and therefore they fail the whole dating thing because it doesn't match with the material reality and issues occur interacting with others over this.
Not to keep playing reverse "Spot the Contradiction," but you need to remember that these are people who generally have never had a girlfriend. Period. They might get a first date or two and then get ghosted. In the context of a first date, do you think that for a het woman, a man more interested in emotionality than sex is somehow a red flag? Like yeah, if he's trauma dumping to you while you're at the diner and you don't even really know him, that's probably not gonna fly, but if anything I would think emotionality that is somewhat in check and deprioritizing sex would be considered substantial positives for these guys as candidates. Unfortunately for them, most of them never even got that far and the other ones found some other way (probably prioritizing sex in many cases) to fuck it up.
Aaaaa nooooooooo
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You can't convert to being gay, sexuality is fluid sure but if someone finds relief in dating men they didn't successfully convert themselves, they were just a repressed queer person. That's legitimising conversion therapy but the opposite way round.
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No, nobody is happy to hear straight people are "converting themselves queer" if it's because of mental health and trauma. That's awful. I want all queer people to be happy, not forced by some self hatred.
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No gay men don't get it easier, it's just as difficult/easy for them, this is a wild bit of homophobia. They aren't more promiscuous or sex having. Just as many sit on the Internet being horny as straight men do and not getting laid like everyone else.
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We don't apologise for fascists here for getting radicised, we have nuanced conversations about how radicalisation happens i hope. Inceldom is classified as an extremist ideology. If people want to reform from it then they have to take ownership of themselves and their behaviours to some degree, not look for imo whataboutisms regarding an ideology that's lead to multiple mass shootings, murders, redacted etc of women.
Maybe I don't get what you mean but to me it seems like you underestimate how scary this ideology is to women given how damaging and harmful it can be. It's gone beyond sad boys getting ghosted and venting on the Internet.
Sorry maybe I'm speaking from my own trauma here but this stuff is so scary.
You might be happy to know, though, that one of the veins of discourse in the incel community is basically doing conversion therapy to become gay because they believe (I think correctly) that it's way easier on average for a dude to get laid if he's gay. I've never seen someone report that the converted themselves, though.
This paragraph i'm referencing, nope nope nope.
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I wasn't weighing in on whether their conversion ideas were legitimate or not, merely saying that some people talked about pursuing it.
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I was being facetious, I apologize if I upset you. It might have been insensitive of me. I'll remove that part.
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I think the logic goes that lots of dudes want, whether by social conditioning or natural libido or whatever, to fuck anything that walks. Lots of women, for the same reasons, don't. Therefore, if someone wants to have sex, they should have sex with men. It's not about gay men being more libidinal than straight men, it's about men being more libidinal than women. Again, their logic, not mine. Hopefully you don't see this as defensive, since it's not like conversion is a key pillar of their ideology, it's just something that pops up conversationally here and there.
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I never excused their actions, I merely want to understand it causally and sometimes to help others make sense of it. The problem with their ideology is that it is reactionary, not that it is extremist; we're extremists, too! I get how you take me for an apologist (though I'm not), but I don't get how you took anything I said to be a "whataboutism".
I'm not particularly aware of the violence it has caused beyond the mass shootings, but I've read some of their violent fantasizing on their board and I won't reprint it even with a CW. I know that this is a dangerous "culture" (network of cults) with a bad ideology, the point isn't to say that it isn't bad. But if you're really serious about acting against them, it's important to understand how they work and where their motivations come from, you can't just make shit up or hastily string faulty inferences together and then have it be unassailable because challenging this negative claim is de facto apologetics. It doesn't make any sense.
Now of course, if you read my dumb rant (which I don't encourage, I think it'll just upset you), I do admit that I personally feel bad for the more sad boy contingent of them, just as I feel bad for a friend of mine who got brought into a more literal cult and now recruits more victims, even though I also condemn their actions and basically everything they do or think at this point. However, my feelings might motivate my attention to this issue, but I do not justify anything with those feelings as that would be absurd and no one here would even understand it, much less agree. It would also be poor reasoning. Ultimately, what I want is the best outcome for the most people, which statistically means mainly that people should be protected from incels, but it also means that -- insofar as logistics allow it -- the incels should be put in re-education camps rather than on death row, and they don't need to repent first, they just need to be put somewhere where they can't hurt anyone and then learn why they should repent.
This paragraph i'm referencing, nope nope nope.
I understood before, but the particularly offensive content has been removed
By the way, you don't need to apologize for voicing concerns, it is a good thing to do.
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It's ridiculous and should only be condemned. It's concerning that the foundation of some of these people is belief in conversion therapy. Sorry for implying you did.
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Probably
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This gets said a lot but most gay men I know are vers/switch and don't have hard and fast rules in actual dating relationships. The top shortage thing is probably more to do with hookups because for a hookup people usually have an idea about what they want which is to be railed.
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Please don't insinuate im an extremist, I yap on a lefty forum on an account I made during a particularly bad period and don't do any violence or have any plans or desires or wishes to harm anyone, call me a lib. Conflating that with people who actively wish death on women is wild.
But if you're really serious about acting against them, it's important to understand how they work and where their motivations come from, you can't just make shit up or hastily string faulty inferences together and then have it be unassailable because challenging this negative claim is de facto apologetics. It doesn't make any sense.
Excuse me?
You have no idea who i am, what i do, what I've read or studied etc. That's just an assumption you just made.
Sorry I didn't prep for a debate on the motivations of violence towards women in that clique of men and have all my references and citations ready to go.
I didn't see you as an apologist more someone who's missing half the picture on this issue by virtue of being a man and not the victim of the chain of violence. And also made some dodgy comments i replied to.
I had read the rest of your comments and others before I replied. I only commented cos of the things I initially called out.
It's not like I haven't read or taken anything in and I don't like how you assume I've dismissed it. I do talk to men in real life. I have spoken and listened to others, I do have a boyfriend who has a voice and opinion too. I wasn't planning to spend all night effort posting either.
Please don't insinuate im an extremist, I yap on a lefty forum on an account I made during a particularly bad period and don't do any violence or have any plans or desires or wishes to harm anyone, call me a lib. Conflating that with people who actively wish death on women is wild.
I just wanna point out that we don't really wish for violence, we simply know that it's going to come to us. The bourgeoisie will not give up their power willingly and will use extreme violence to keep that power. The violence of the revolutionary left is self-defence in that regard as far as I'm concerned. Especially if you ever read The Jakarta Method it just becomes plainly obvious.
Conflating that with people who actively wish death on women is wild.
I was going to say that if you accused me of equivocating, I swear on me mum. The extreme right and the extreme left are both extremes, people who adhere to either are extremists. Extremism isn't an ideology or a value, it's a descriptor of how an ideology relates to the status quo (i.e. being really far away). Unless you meant I was equivocating liberals [on a leftist website] with incels, which would make less sense. I just didn't know you were a lib since almost no one with a HB account identifies that way.
Excuse me?
I should have phrased it more carefully, but I wasn't actually referring to you with that comment. Remember this is all based on you responding to me saying other stuff, there was more context than just us talking, and it's a bad habit of this board (and, admittedly, people in general) to make hasty assumptions about their opposition. I've been getting in trouble with using the general "you" a lot; I need to figure out how to signal things more clearly.
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Maybe you should learn what "essentialist" means when you're that insistent on weaponizing the term against other users. Also that's a pretty gross case of biphobia you got there.
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I wouldn't really know since I've only ever had "traditional" relationships, but I'm pretty sure they still exist. Most of the people I know (which is now mid twenties at the youngest up to near 40) are in romantic relationships or want to be, it's not just hook-ups out there. Like, don't get me wrong, thinking about how to find a way to get into a romantic relationship again makes me want to CW, but that's partly because it was already really difficult for someone like me and it's getting more difficult as I get older . . .
I think you've misunderstood me. When I say "traditional" I mean like, this fairytail of many weeks/months of dating before sexy time. It just isn't how it actually works in the real world anymore. People are making out and rubbing bits together within the first few days/week or they're moving on.
The intimacy and romance is built alongside the physicality. If it exists.
There's an unwritten rule about not being too clingy during that time, and if the two people fall for each other then they do, but also you have to not be too clingy too quickly or else it becomes massively unattractive. This is a major hurdle for incels because of course they're massively insecure and that same insecurity causes them to massively overthink everything and become far too emotionally attached too quickly to the point that it makes the other person uncomfortable how they're being.
Incidentally, one of the veins of discourse in the incel community is basically doing conversion therapy to become gay because they believe that it's way easier on average for a dude to get laid if he's gay. I've never seen someone report that the converted themselves, though.
I don't think it's easier to get laid if you're gay. I think it's easier to get laid if you're into kink and that community happens to almost entirely crossover with kink due to comfort with exploration.
Not to keep playing reverse "Spot the Contradiction," but you need to remember that these are people who generally have never had a girlfriend. Period. They might get a first date or two and then get ghosted. In the context of a first date, do you think that for a het woman, a man more interested in emotionality than sex is somehow a red flag?
No.
Like yeah, if he's trauma dumping to you while you're at the diner and you don't even really know him, that's probably not gonna fly
This is practically all of them. They will all tell you just how much life has it out for them with practically no prompting, and it's deeply offputting to most people.
but if anything I would think emotionality that is somewhat in check and deprioritizing sex would be considered substantial positives for these guys as candidates
It would be, if they could get their incredible insecurity in check or at least successfully hide it for long enough for someone to see the real person they are.
However, one of the problems with insecurity is that it controls you in a way that causes you to act differently. It holds you back, it makes you not say things, or say things you shouldn't, it causes acting out, etc etc. If you can remove insecurity from the situation you end up with a completely different person, one that is attractive assuming they don't say some women-hating bullshit.
this fairytail of many weeks/months of dating before sexy time. It just isn't how it actually works in the real world anymore. People are making out and rubbing bits together within the first few days/week or they're moving on.
News to demis. Just because our fairy nature gives us powers of invisibility we don't entirely control, doesn't mean we don't have a presence in your real world!
and it's getting more difficult as I get older
like how old? I guess it's never easier than like early 20's
Yeah, it's easy in high school and even easier as an undergrad, but there's a precipitous drop immediately after that, at least for me (though I have to imagine it applies to many other people).
The level of intimacy they yearn for is created over months, the sex is usually much earlier. So perhaps part of the problem is that they mentally have the cart before the horse, the order of things that are supposed to happen is incorrect in their heads and therefore they fail the whole dating thing because it doesn’t match with the material reality and issues occur interacting with others over this.
How? Why is this the case? I've thought for such a long time that people in general would prefer to wait for emotional intimacy before engaging in sex for a long-term relationship. When did it become like this?
I think in the past various religious values used to impress a certain amount of prudishness and resistance to sexual relations such that romantic feelings would develop before physicality. Whereas these days those values and the "save yourself for the one you love" attitude fell by the wayside as a result of secularism.
Add on top of that the fact that everyone is horny af and that's mostly normalised as fine and ok and well there you have it. People get physical fairly quickly, within the first 1-14 days, whereas love takes months to develop or people put up barriers to actively avoid developing those romantic feelings after previous negative experiences (self preservation after how much it hurt).
I'm speaking strictly of the west here of course, I don't have enough experience outside of it to say how different things might be elsewhere. I would expect things trend in the same direction outside of the religiously-led countries though.
Biology happens, and I'd still tell people, after significant experience with that: spend the time getting to know someone before sexing them. That hormone rush wears off after about three months, and it's not great to find out you really don't actually like a person you're already sleeping with.
Most people really aren't willing to wait that long before engaging in anything physical. I suspect that people probably suffer a sort of relationship fomo in that they're worried someone else will snag them if they don't start.
Yes. After significant experience with that, I would say that's the difference between desperation and confidence.
To illustrate, desperation = pick me, confidence = I'm enough.
I don't get why incels exist tbh when you can go into literally any kink community right now and find 5 people that want to sub for practically anyone in like 10 minutes.
I don't know of any local kink community I can just walk into. Especially as a single man, lol
Over reacting. There is no possible way to solve a problem without talking about what the causes of it are.
I also don't agree with you generalising incels as simply all being neurodiverse people, they're not, some might be but the majority? I don't think so. It also means any criticism of incels is ableism and frankly I entirely disagree.
I would argue it's not the sex that is specifically the problem, sex is clumsy for everyone in first experiences. For the incels it's the part before the sex they are erring on. We don't have socialisation classes on what typically occurs before the sex, we only have movies for that and the movies are not actually a reflection of our current reality. They get taught the wrong thing, fail, build up insecurity about it, fail even harder, and then resent society for it. This resentment at society for this makes them uniquely susceptible to the deep hate that the community has now become a hotbed for, including the mass killings carried out by some of them.
If I wanted to turn this around I think my starting point would be movies. Specifically movies focused on inceldom and reforming from it but also followed by a change in the way movies currently teach people these relations in an out of date way that simply isn't reflecting current society.
The question that bothers me much more than why they can’t get sex is WHY incels base their happiness and worth almost entirely on sex and dating in the first place. That seems very problematic to me and getting closer to the core of the issue.
In capitalism you either have sex/dating or wealth that are pushed as the great things that make you "successful". I would probably look at their backgrounds and how they were raised to determine why sex/dating ended up ahead of wealth for them.
I think the cases where people don't fall into either of those two usually happen because our parents were a counterbalance against the hegemony telling us that those aren't important during the very important development years.
This thread is a perfect example of incels refusing to take any personal responsibility for an extremist ideology they clung to and one that has lead to multiple mass shootings and killings of minorities.
Yet again men refusing to take ownership or pay the price for their mistakes.
If women had a hate ideology that lead to mass shootings we'd be expected to publicly self and crit and beg for forgiveness.
Literally just classic male entitlement and different rules for them.
Cringe this website allows incels to mask off and play the victims like in this thread.
Wonder how many women have left or made new profiles to hide themselves because of embarrassments like this?
We wouldn't give nazi's, transphobes, fascists, libs space to mask off like this, so why incels? Why do women and enbies have to pay the price again for men's fragility and ignorance?
I deleted an account I made over how fucking uncomfortable the comments in this thread made me feel but why should I be scared away from an apparent safe space by incels with a chip on their shoulder?
And you try to explain it from your position of lived experience and being a literal victim of this and it's either unhinged tantrums, accusations of ableism (because being a misogynist is apparently intrinsic to being ND) or i have to listen to reddit "both sides" smugness, faux intellectualism and accusations of lacking material analysis from some dolt man who thinks letting abusers into their victims spaces is praxis.
Fuck that. Do better hexbear or ban me, both work.
Edit: I've noticed a lot of the incels in this thread have they/them in their names. I have used terms like men and male brained a lot here. I'm really sorry if that offended anyone. It was not my intention to misgender anyone if i had. Guess i didnt think people who disconnected from the gender binary would expect women to be their sex coaches and cry victim over an extremist ideology 🙃 either way I'm genuinely sorry if that has misgendered anyone, also sorry your views are fucked.
Is it fuck, stop trying to paint me as a conservative or brain wormed cos I don't feel sorry for people who hated women for nothing. Soz you felt attacked, you should.
I've seen your comments, you're literally the fucking problem with incels. No self awareness, no feminism, all victim complex.
Miss me with that shit 💅
Projection!!!!!!
Says the person who thinks women should sex coach incels out their victims complexes 🤣
Sorry whos the one who decided woman owe incels that. Thanks for deciding what our bodies and role in this debate is. Lmao.
Unaddressed transphobia? If being disgusted with yours views on women, incels and comfort women is transphobia then sure. Idiot.
it just makes my skin crawl
whataboutism 
