Like I get that ivermectin can be harmful and isn’t meant for COVID w/e.
But I also know a lot of houseless people and uninsured that have relied on animal medication when human medication was inaccessible to them due to the cost. Is it safe or advised? No. But it’s nice to not have to choose between medication and eating when you’re sick and poor.
This whole “lol they take horse meds they’re dumb” is a bad way to angle your argument IMO as it can be leveraged to punch down. And we need to be thinking critically about what kind of laws can come from encouraging takes like this. I don’t want to limit anyone’s access to affordable medicine even if some people abuse that access to get diarrhea.
Perhaps we shouldn’t be attacking the problem on some intrinsic “human taking animal meds bad” but more on the reasons people do it? Because all of this links back to the bigger problem that America doesn’t have adequate healthcare for its people. And, I would argue, that leveraging the discussion from that logic would add more weight to our cause and help more people see the inherent evils that are contributing to this. (Namely American healthcare interest groups)
Thoughts?
IMO this is a huge reach. People are dunking on people taking horse dewormer, partially because a lot of the people taking horse dewormer have plenty of access and can afford real medicine (theres a free vaccine ffs). This feels like a mistaken "chuds == poor people" assumption that just isnt true.
it's been shown over and over chuds are white petite bourgeoisie small business owners LARPing as real hard working working class people
After the capitol riot people bent over backwards to say they were a bunch of poor people when in reality it was all cops and landlords
Who the fuck else would be able to take time off of work to get bused out to the capital for a protest? They literally did the thing that they accuse leftists of doing all the time
I’m not doing that at all. Before the pandemic news articles about people taking animal medications were heavily focused on poor people’s lack of access to affordable healthcare. I’m just pointing out how convenient it is that now it’s about rich chuds and being anti-vax. In 2016 the news was about creating sympathy for those that couldn’t afford the right meds but now when the news talks about animal medication it only does so to demonize ivermectin. It ignores the people that still rely on things like pig insulin and dog antibiotics. Why could that be? People that can’t afford insulin and antibiotics didn’t just disappear.
Yeah, no, the vaccine is free, you’re performing olympic level gymnastics right now to suggest making fun of chuds is poor shaming.
like saying ‘guys do you think by making fun of using alcohol to treat anal prolapse will prevent poor people from using it as a diuretic’
You’re creating a straw man out of my argument.
We should focus more on people who take animal medication out of necessity (like for diabetes or bacterial infections) than we do on people who take it out of stupidity. I’m not here to defend some chud’s right to die I’m here to make a case that this could hinder someone’s right to live in the future.
It also says a lot about how effective this narrative is that me bringing it up here makes me instantly read as being pro-chud when I’ve only ever brought up my concern from the angle of the harm it could do to the poor. The thing I’m concerned about is “hey I think dunking on animal meds as a whole makes it hard to have a constructive conversation about why people historically turn to animal meds”
I think your entire argument is built on a strawman.
We should focus more on people who take animal medication out of necessity (like for diabetes or bacterial infections) than we do on people who take it out of stupidity.
I think you’re forgetting the part where there’s a global pandemic going on and people are using medications for completely ill founded reasons to cure a deadly disease. You could literally frame anythings Chuds do as a consequence of material conditions. Genocide, bigotry, capitalist exploitation. How salient is the argument here when the biggest story is thousands of people dying from the use of this medication all due to political ideology? Like, maybe, yes, it could be spun that way? I don’t know how important it is to point that out right now and on this site.
I didn’t realize it was that big a problem. Do you have a source on the thousands dying from ivermectin? How many thousands?
I just claimed that annual deaths from ivermectin have not even surpassed the annual deaths from toasters, so no I’m not googling a source for you
Because ivermectin is a current news item of relevance. It's the biggest thing happening in animal drug use by humans in a long time, so of course it's what the media stories are covering right now. It's not prevalent because ivermectin people are getting made fun of - you're reversing the causality.
Search any topic and you're going to get more current news stories than ones from 2016.
It's not a reach. I've seen several smug libs dunking on ivermectin without even knowing that there's a human version of the drug.
smug libs dunking on something, guess we have to side with the fash now.
most of these chuds are well off small business owners and shit, they can afford healthcare. their brain worms are nothing to do with the lack of affordable healthcare, the problem is wild ass conspiracy theories and grifters who make shit up to profit off of scared and panicked people
It's this, it's dunking on petite bourgeois small business owners who're fully anti-vaxx because youtube tells them so.
the hardcore mouth frothing chud base is always the petite bourgeoisie. people keep buying into their lines about being hard working blue collar folks, when these people own means of production and their material class interests are what have brought them into this rabbid death cult. they are not poor workers
I think people seeing it as dunking on poor people taking animal medicine is purely a result of it being online. I can't think of any reasonable person, in person, who would take making fun of chuds for eating livestock dewormer as shitting on the homeless. It's just purely people reaching very hard to find some kind of critique where one isn't needed, because having critiques/takes is what you're supposed to do here.
Also if laws came from our takes then we wouldn't have such shitty healthcare to begin with.
This isn’t just a “take” though, the media has shifted to heavily criticizing animal meds and the people who take them. We’re just regurgitating it for memes. In 2016 they were reporting on people using animal medicine off label too but it was allowed to be framed from a “these people are poor and have no option” perspective. Those people still exist but now their stories are being ignored and hampered by this ivermectin trend. Now animal meds=anti-Vax to neoliberals where as before it meant someone too poor to afford medicine.
You really don’t see how a media narrative effects the way our laws are written? Is manufacturing consent a lie or something?
I think you're conflating these two situations because both are about human use of animal medication
I’m conflating them because when I search for news on people taking animal antibiotics and insulin I’m confronted with articles that only focus on the evils ivermectin. The only articles I can find showing any sympathy to people on animal antibiotics and insulin is before the pandemic hit. If normal people aren’t exposed to something that questions the narrative they will take the one presented to them and run with it. Right now that presented narrative is “animal medicine is for rich chuds” and that erases the experience of a marginalized population to focus on dunking on a privileged one.
the algorithm is filled with liberals?
i'm filled with liberals?
i'm the liberal?
:jesse-wtf:
and idk if you noticed, but we're not the mainstream media bashing the poor
Me: Do you think this narrative could be used for harm in the future?
You: We’re not bashing the poor.
It’s like you’re talking at me not with me.
This isn’t just a “take” though, the media has shifted to heavily criticizing animal meds and the people who take them. We’re just regurgitating it for memes
your own words
Where does that accuse anyone of bashing the poor again? I’m saying we’re criticizing people that take animal medication, not all of whom are poor. Saying something could have the unintended consequence of harming the poor is not the same as accusing someone of being malicious against the poor.
If you’re not intentionally nuance trolling, it’s time to clarify whether this thread is a callout of forum behavior or a discussion of frustration with off-site behavior and no proposed solution.
Does “callout” imply that I think this narrative is intentional or malicious coming from hexbear? Because I do not.
Can it be both? I’m frustrated that off-site behavior is having an effect on on-site behavior but I don’t think anyone here is genuinely against the poor? I was curious if anyone else was worried that this could be co-opted to paint poor people as stupid because of the actions of a few chuds. If the deaths really are less than toaster deaths for ivermectin how does that compare to the hundreds of thousands that lose their lives to lack of affordable healthcare?
Can that small harm be used to justify magnifying the big harm? Historically America has done this for less. I guess all of it is pretty moot because ideally no one would have to resort to animal medication. But with Biden in office we aren’t going to see that change. I’m concerned about the changes we could see and how they could get us closer to greater harm.
I know hexbear has no large effect as an isolated community. But the actions we take individually outside of this website can have a greater impact. I guess I just chose this void to yell into because I thought it would listen.
Of course corporate media is putting an anti-poverty spin on it. That doesn’t mean every anti-ivermectin meme is anti-homeless or that the anti-ivermectin memes are astroturfed. Coming here to tell us that our memes are anti-homeless is not a solution to the corporate manufacturing of consent. Reminder that Merck is terrified of this becoming a liability for them and will do whatever it takes to put the blame on individuals, up to and including a mass propaganda campaign
I never said the memes were anti-homeless. I merely think we should consider the narrative a meme that says “animal meds are for idiots” says vs “ivermectin isn’t for covid” or even “ivermectin is for idiots” if you really gotta call someone stupid.
If Merck really cared about liability they would pull their drug from the market while waiting for the fad to pass. The fact that they haven’t tells me they’re probably already protected from liability from the warnings on their labels. Just like any other medication/vaccine. Rn they’re just collecting the check.
actually americans are only taking horse dewormer because they can't afford the free vaccine
Repeating the statements that should already be here.
There is a free vaccine that is pretty effective at keeping COVID from killing you already available. Instead of taking it, there are anti-vaccers who will wait until they get sick and try to self medicate with horse dewormer instead of going to the hospital and seeking professional medical treatment. I will confidently claim that a very large number of those people are not so desperate for money that this was their only option.
I can go buy penicillin, sterile needles, and sterile syringes from a farm supply store without anything more than the cash in my pocket. I could do some light reading and figure the dosage that would be safer for human use. I have NEVER seen or read about a huge push by people who could just go to a hospital to use penicillin from a feed store instead of just going to a clinic or hospital.
This is purely dangerous cope from a group of people who absolutely cannot admit that they were wrong. First COVID wasn't a thing at all, then it wasn't any worse than a cold, then anybody who got sick was labeled as having COVID "just because", then it was anybody who died in a hospital was listed as a COVID death "just because", then it was the COVID vaccinations are going to kill you, now its COVID vaccinations are ineffective because "reasons". Now we're at the phase where COVID is real, deadly, an actual concern but instead of going to get the vaccine (and having to admit that they were wrong) they're desperately trying to self medicate to "own" ... somebody, I guess.
None of this has anything to do with desperate measures by those who are in desperate situation, its about dunking on people who have so divorced themselves from from our common reality that they will twist themselves into knots trying to not do the simplest thing to keep themselves safe and healthy just to protect their manufactured world image.
I know why you’re dunking on the ivermectin fools but I’m asking if that could have any unintended consequences when the narrative tries to take “animal medication is for idiots” to it’s next logical step which could end up blocking medication access for at risk individuals.
Notice how nowhere in any of my posts have I defended ivermectin or the people that take it. I’m fully vaxxed and frankly don’t give a shit about ivermectin in the slightest. I’m merely speaking as someone who had been poor enough to be forced to take animal medication before this pandemic hit. The way people talk about humans taking animal meds has changed considerably in the last few years.
Hey, my mom took me to get my head stitched back together at a veterinary clinic because she was freaking out, it was opened, and she managed to "talk" them into doing what is technically an illegal surgery that could have gotten them shut down or fined or something. So I get it.
But everything we do will and can be twisted by people with other agendas. So yeah, folks who want to turn this into poor shaming, will do so. If it wasn't this, it would be something else. So ultimately, I don't see it as mattering enough to think its a bad idea.
This whole pattern is pretty common. A culture war issue is made out of something that doesn’t materially effect the vast majority of people. The people who actually are effected by or involved in the issue are either the people most entrenched in that culture war or bystanders who are absolutely baffled and probably offended at people doing this weird politicization of an aspect of their life. It feels dehumanizing because it is. You’re being used as a prop in a distraction.
But there’s legitimately no way to not take sides on this. People who try to be above it or try to be meta about the narrative will just be perceived as taking a side implicitly. And given the current discourse there’s no way we can have a proper discussion about the broader group of people who have taken animal medication without addressing the ivermectin chuds. It would be ignoring important context and leaves it up to interpretation by the lens of the culture war.
I think if you’d come in saying “all this discussion about people taking animal medicine is fucked up and completely ignoring those of us who have had to resort to animal medicine” you could have gotten a lot more support here. But the idea that this forum in particular needs to change their behavior is almost always going to be met with pushback for better or for worse. If there’s anything in particular here that’s been upsetting to you, like if people here have made fun of people who are taking animal meds in general, that’s probably worth addressing. Otherwise, you’ve landed in a weird spot in between a general cultural commentary and a plea for change in behavior that will not be interpreted well
When smarter people than me answer a question I was asked but actually competently.
Thanks! :solidarity:
Taking animal medication isn't bad in certain cases, but ivermectin doesn't cure covid and telling people it does is dangerous.
The memes are aimed at petit bougie anti-vaxxer types and fuckwits like Joe Rogan, not homeless people desperate for insulin.
But I also know a lot of houseless people and uninsured that have relied on animal medication when human medication was inaccessible to them due to the cost.
Yeah but they're taking them to treat the conditions they're indicated for in humans - it's not some pseudoscience.
I'm very much against taking animal medicine that is proven to be worthless as a cure and highly dangerous to humans, especially when you've got better options.
The people eating horse paste have better options in the form of a covid vaccine. Even in a country as cartoonishly evil as the US, covid vaccines are free and easy to get.
Except for the apple flavour there is no good reason to eat horse paste.
I do get how Americans get to distrust the medical profession though. US health insurance is effectively a protection racket and the profit motive tempts healthcare providers to over-treat patients. Meanwhile ghoulish healthcare capitalists are jacking up prices and buying off politicians to avoid regulation.
So healthcare is prohibitively expensive and the people behind it are scammers and vampires. At the same time you hear about how people use various folk remedies successfully, effectively outsmarting the drug companies by for instance successfully treating infections with antibiotics for fish.
Then you couple this with the identitarian right's baseline anti-intellectualism and petty self-aggrandizing individualism and you get the notion that these coastal elite liberal so-called experts shouldn't tell you what to do. You're just as smart as them! Unlike them you know the real world! And then eating horse paste transforms from being just a folk remedy to also being a cultural issue, a way to trigger the libs, a part of your identity.
