it's moments like these where i'm astounded that i can regularly wake up and go about my day in this society like it isn't the most damnable nation to ever stain this earth
I've been coping by telling myself that this is just the Biblical nation of Sodom, and that one day very soon, I will get to watch the fireballs land.
He was still a human being why would you ever advocate to increase the amount of suffering in the world. That's disgusting
He was just jerking off about how much he's happy for the suffering basically
And I would gladly see you go suffer the same way he did you fucking animal
imagine what had to go horrifically wrong in his life for him to enact that kind of violence on others
monstrous behavior doesn't just magically arise out of thin air
Absolutely horrific.
At this point it's trite to say that if this had happened in any other country, there would be incessant media outcry about it. That goes without saying. What I think is interesting is the nature of these experimental execution methods (god what an awful phrase). Who are they for? What is the purpose of this?
We can clearly see that it's not to make it painless for the inmate. It's also not to make it more efficient and quick, the guy choked and thrashed around for ten minutes. So what is the point of even experimenting with ways to kill a person? Is it merely supposed to be bloodless, to make cleaning up easier after the fact? A firing squad is quicker and relatively painless, because the person dies in a couple of seconds, rather than minutes, but it does make a mess.
I just don't get it. If that person should die, then why go through all this fucking trouble when you can just shoot them, or alternatively shoot them up with enough fentanyl to kill a horse? Bullets and fentanyl are cheap. Cheaper than nitrogen gas, I presume. Sometimes it feels like the sadistic fucks in charge of this theater (and it is a theater, curtains and all) are just trying some new shit to see what it will do. Experimenting for its own sake.
Firing squad is messy, fentanyl I’m guessing being a controlled substance/opioid makes it a no go. I remember reading a few years back that the EU was ceasing the export of the chemical traditionally used in lethal injections in the U.S. so my guess is they’re experimenting with a replacement they can source easily.
I think the point OP is making is that the state doesn’t appear to be interested in quick and affordable executions. If it were then it would seek to amend or change laws/regulations in order to do so. But instead the state pursues these experimental executions that are slower and crueler.
It is also, ironically, because of a failure in the market.
A lot of drug manufacturers are reluctant to have "used by the Statesville Department of Corrections to execute people" on the Wikipedia page for the drug they are trying to to sell. Having your drug used to put people to death makes it harder to sell to people that want to stay alive. So even though there is an open market for these chemicals, it is harder and harder to convince manufacturers to supply that market. Even where it's not explicitly prohibited like companies operating out of the European Union.
Also, the whole killing people thing kind of antithetical to most medical codes of ethics. Even outside of bad publicity, there are moral considerations, most doctors do not want to put their name to an execution method, it kind of goes against the whole "do no harm" thing. This is why they normally have some random first-year nursing student set the IV. And also why so many executions have failed in spectacular fashion because they couldn't find a vein, or the IV pops out or whatever.
so my guess is they’re experimenting with a replacement they can source easily.
This is precisely it. The reason lethal injection is so commonly fucked up in the US is because there is no standardized cocktail of drugs used. It varies literally prison by prison, and doesn't even need a physician's approval. I can't remember where I read it, but I recall reading about one state where the drugs chosen were chosen by the prison warden solely by vibes
and doesn't even need a physician's approval
Never gonna get a physicians approval since physicians take an oath not to kill people. That problem comes up a lot, as soon as the people giving you the drugs find out you’re using it for lethal injection they go “What the fuck what’s wrong with you no you can’t have more”
Not only can they not easily source the chemicals, they can't get doctors and nurses to administer the shots, so lethal injections tend to be administered by cops who don't know what they're doing which is why the previous attempt to kill this inmate failed.
Critical support to our doctors and nurses, who realize that "do no harm" includes participating in state sanctioned murder.
my guess is they’re experimenting with a replacement they can source easily
can confirm as a burgerian that this is indeed what is happening
Firing squad ruins the veil of civility, and it also makes the pigs get PTSD from THINKING they killed a man. So instead we have to play Mengele to give it some kind of civil and scientific legitimacy
We can clearly see that it's not to make it painless for the inmate.
I think it was actually. As I described in my main comment in this thread, inert gas asphyxiation is painless. So I think the intent was indeed to make it painless.
They just didn't take into account that the person might hold their breath, causing them to experience normal asphyxiation from the remaining CO2 in their body. Or they did take it into account by just telling him not to hold his breath or something, as if that would stop him from doing so.
Gas asphyxiation is often painless/quick because you dont know its happening. Kind of impossible to do though once you tell someone your gonna smother them in a room and they wont try to save you. Who wouldn't get a panic attack and hyperventilate over that?
Inert gas asphyxiation is painless because it doesn't cause a build-up of CO2, instead replacing both the oxygen and CO2. Your body only responds to a build-up of CO2, not a lack of oxygen. And the gas itself, being inert, doesn't directly do anything to your body. Hyperventilating would probably just help speed it along.
Holding your breath however completely defeats the point because you burn through your oxygen, it becomes CO2, and it doesn't leave the body because you're not letting it.
Not that the blame is on him for holding his breath, I completely understand. It just shows that while this method would be great for euthanasia, it's not so good for execution. I hope it isn't demonized and banned for use in euthanasia because of this.
just fucking shoot them god damn "the cruelty is the point"
When hanging or firing squad are more humane alternatives, god damn america, that's in the bible.
The most humane method of execution that humanity has ever developed is still just a bullet to the head. People in this stupid fucking turd of a country are unfortunately too bloodthirsty to give up on execution, but also too squeamish to do it the honest and correct way.
People really can survive getting shot in the head unfortunately.
CW: suicide
I'm friends with some doctors who work in emergency psych units and there are an alarmingly high number of patients who try to shoot themselves in the head and fail to die in various ways that maim them terribly and make their life so much worse than it was before.
I understand what you’re saying, but execution style shootings are different from a failed suicide attempt. Most of the time it’s someone becoming squeamish at the last second and throwing the angle off which results in a botched attempt unfortunately.
If someone is surviving a headshot then you aren't using a big enough bullet.
what caliber is a mandatory question here. Then again, I went to school with a kid who died on a fishing boat when a 22 went off accidentally and got him right in the (head, eye).
Most humane way IMO is to put someone under as if they were having surgery. While they're under, lop off the head with guillotine.
Anesthetics take some serious skill to work effectively, and no reputable anesthesiologist would be willing to do it. That's the main problem here, capital punishment is incompatible with the ethics of medicine. Doctors don't want to kill people
A bullet would still be faster, but in my personal opinion I want to relapse on nicotine with a final cig if I have to get executed (by firing squad, one of the only things my shithole of a state gets right)
The most humane method of execution that humanity has ever developed is still just a bullet to the head
no love for the guillotine?We need to create an explosive guillotine that cuts at Mach 4 or greater
Does nothing about the fact the intact brain exists and is conscious. People have blinked and stuff lost guillotine.
A bullet destroys the part of you that contains you. Just heady with barret and they won’t even know a switch has been flipped.
The most humane method of execution that humanity has ever developed is still just a bullet to the head.
many people want their loved one’s body to be left intact and not riddled with holes or missing limbs
Yeah I’d much prefer them with tons of IV stab wounds and then suffering for hours
If I were being executed I really couldn’t give less of a shit about looking handsome for relatives
Wouldn't carbon monoxide be better? You kind of just fall asleep no?
Google says that it’s more dangerous for bystanders in case of leakage. Probably the real reason is that it’s too expensive to do it safely.
Yeah but we don't do that because of the optics. And only because of the optics, really.
optics as a concept needs to die. So many people whinge about optics and they never have a valid point underneath it.
Generally yeah, but let's see who's gonna advocate in favor of gassing inmates.
True. Though Alabama's doing it cuz they ran out of juice but want to keep killing people anyway. It seems like there's more backlash to this method than to the usual murders, but I think the South just needs to make it more American. Lock people in a room with a truck running and you'll have the support of patriots everywhere.
Honestly, with how anti death penalty this site is they’d just get banned (they conveniently ignore how we all approve of the death penalty for Nazis, but don’t point that out).
I mean There were and still are multiple Gas Chambers all around the US that we're Used for executions. So the US is advocating for Gas Chambers.
Most of them arent Used anymore and are in the south. I dont know the exact Locations but i think Arizona was one, new Mexico, california Had one as well.
They were mostly Used in the 60s and 70s i think.
(CW: Discussion of self harm and the description of the execution)
Something seems wrong here. What nitrogen does is replace the oxygen and CO2 in your lungs. Our self preservation instinct doesn't actually respond to a lack of oxygen, but a build-up of CO2. Because of that, nothing is felt when it's all replaced by an inert gas (which, being inert, doesn't do anything to your body directly). It's actually a popularly recommended method among euthanasia advocates and as far as I can tell is the quickest, most painless, most peaceful way to (CW) commit suicide. If I eventually do it, it's probably going to be with that method, but with Helium since it's much easier to get.
With all that said, nitrogen shouldn't cause the reactions described, so I have no idea how they happened. My best guess is that it was his last (purposeful, not instinctive) attempt at saving himself. Which seems like it would be present in every method where they're conscious at the start. But that doesn't fully match with the "spasms and seizure-like movements".
Regardless, while it's probably the best method for someone who wants to die, clearly it doesn't seem great for executions. Of course executions aren't great in the first place, but one where the person is at least quickly anesthetized might be the least inhumane.
Edit: maybe he wasn't thrashing purposefully, but rather tried to hold his breath (or both), which meant the nitrogen didn't quickly replace the CO2, so he experienced the typical form of asphyxiation before the nitrogen could do anything. That would explain the deep gasping breaths at the end, he couldn't hold it any longer. That also explains why he was alive and moving for at least two minutes. Inert gas asphyxiation is supposed to be quicker than that afaik.
They should expect he'd hold his breath, of course you would, so it still means the method doesn't work and is cruel.
Definitely. They either need to find a way to prevent breath holding or just use some other method.
Or just stop executing people, but we know that one isn’t going to happen any time soon.
of course you would
I think if it was me, and they explained how it worked and told me holding my breath would make it painful, I wouldn’t try to hold my breath. But I 100% understand and empathize with the reason most people would, meaning the method needs revision or not to be used.
But unfortunately this is probably leading people to believe that inert gas asphyxiation is a violent painful event when it’s actually one of the most peaceful methods for those who want or accept it.
An important thing to note: This is your well reasoned decision, when you are not facing the imminent prospect of death.
When you're sitting in that chair, strapped down, the eyes of everyone in the gallery staring at you with hate (or even worse, bored disinterest), the guards busily preparing your murder around you, refusing eye contact, knowing that in a few minutes they'll be carrying your cadaver to some unmarked grave, your heart racing, pounding in your ears, the murmur of medical devices, the beep beep beep of a heart monitor you know will soon be silent.
Under these stressful conditions you might not be consciously able to breathe deeply, the lizard brain may take over to extend what little time it has on this Earth.
I guess that could be true. Somewhere between deliberate action and pure instinct automatically triggered by a specific chemical circumstance. I still kind of think I personally would go with it, but I guess it’s a “what would you do” where an obvious answer isn’t always so obvious in the moment.
Like the trolley problem, the logical answer is to switch the tracks, and I think I’d do it, but maybe something in the moment stops me or makes me hesitate just a little too long. You can never really know unless it actually happens.
spoiler
This was exactly my thought, and holding his breath would explain it really well. Which I guess is a problem with any inhalant method of execution.
spoiler
I guess a potential "solution" (other than not executing people in the first place) could be to put the tube directly in their mouth in some way that they can't remove it. It would probably be pretty uncomfortable, but not necessarily painful. But I guess it might appear a little brutal.
And they might fight against having it put in their mouth, but that seems like a problem for literally any execution method.
Edit: or just anesthetize them first. Is there a way to anesthetize that can't be resisted with painful results?
spoiler
Could you not just like, overdose them on heroin? Maybe followed by nitrogen for confirmation? Or of course you could just not execute people.
I would guess the problem with anesthesia is it's actually pretty complicated and things can go wrong with that step
Yeah, plus doctors and nurses won't do it which means you're relying on untrained pigs.
Yeah anasthesis is complicated and you run into the same issues trying to buy those drugs that are already making prisons seek out this execution method. You could just as easily cause toxicity and overdose or run into a allergy to the drug and then the execution will again be botched becuase the prisoner has to be in good health before the "proper" method of execution is delivered.
It's just so fucked.
CW execution talk
Of course executions aren't great in the first place, but one where the person is at least quickly anesthetized might be the least inhumane.
It's fucked up but guillotines really are the best execution method invented from a pain standpoint. I guess nobody "really knows" but we're pretty damn sure consciousness ends immediately - it's because it looks really barbaric that we wanted to replace it with something "scientific" and clean, first the electric chair then lethal injection, both of which are known to potentially cause lots of unnecessary pain to their victims.
spoiler
but we're pretty damn sure consciousness ends immediately
I thought the opposite was true, that heads have been observed to be alive for a couple seconds after.
But yeah, anything involving mutilation or destruction of the head is just so uncomfortable to me.
CW description of animal testing on rats, dogs, and other animals
I think a lot of accounts are exaggerated and/or mistake muscle contractions for consciousness. But the brain is intact and still has oxygen in it for a few seconds, so there's no reason it should die instantaneously. The idea of a "head in a jar" or a head transplant does have some possibility to it, albeit very difficult and extremely likely to fail. But theoretically if you can reconnect the head to the relevant arteries or whatever in the few seconds before total oxygen deprivation and brain death, it could work.
It's a contentious topic, but there have been multiple studies indicating it could be true.
The implication that severed heads may, however briefly, retain the capacity for life has been supported by a number of unusual experiments over the past century in the field of head transplantation. In 1908, Dr. Charles Guthrie performed the world’s first canine head transplant, in which he attached one dog’s head onto the throat of another dog, reconnecting arteries so that the host provided blood flow to the newly-attached head. Of note, this procedure took approximately 20 minutes, and while the transplanted head displayed some simple reflexes, it quickly deteriorated [10]. Dr. Vladimir Demikhov, one of the founders of modern thoracic surgery, repeated a similar experiment in 1954. The heads that he transplanted displayed complex behavior and survived for far longer, up to 29 days, likely because of the significantly shorter time they were without blood flow [10]. Dr. White took the field a step further in 1970 when he performed the first “cephalic exchange transplantation” in primates. Although this transplant involved cervical spine transection of the animals and thus continuous respiratory support, the two heads displayed a normal awake EEG pattern after the surgery [10]. In 2015, Dr. Ping Ren performed a similar experiment with mice, and in one notable example, was able to keep the animals alive for six months [10]. While the science-fiction trope of a "brain in a jar” is impossible for the time being, these experiments clearly demonstrate that the long-term survival of a transplanted head is quite possible. This, in addition to the 1975 [7] and 2013 [9] studies discussed above, suggests that there is no functional difference between the brain of an executed human and the brain of an intact human, for at least several seconds post-decapitation.
— https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9930870
(Emphasis mine)
If a head can be transplanted as those studies indicate, it must be alive for at least a few seconds.
The same paper gives arguments against the idea of retained consciousness (right under the section I quoted), but the studies mentioned in that section still seem to indicate about 3 seconds before unconsciousness in rats.
Like I said above, from a logical perspective it makes sense. The brain is kind of the only thing that directly matters in regards to death. Every form of death besides direct damage to the brain is ultimately the brain dying because some system required to keep it alive failed. Since the brain isn't damaged and still has oxygen in it, it should be alive for those few seconds before the oxygen runs out. I think direct and widespread destruction of the brain is probably the only way to truly guarantee near or effectively instantaneous death.
continuing from the last block, but getting kind of off topic and into very dubious unscientific speculation on my part
That's possibly why destruction of the brain makes me more uncomfortable than other forms of death, immediate cessation of the self feels wrong, like the brain should be allowed to have a couple seconds to process the fact that it's over.
I've seen a (non-scientific) theory that the idea of "heaven" could actually be the brain releasing endorphins upon death to make those final moments blissful. If true (and again it's a completely non-scientific theory with no real evidence to back it up afaik), I think everyone would deserve to experience that instead of dying immediately. It could explain some people who have near death experiences claiming to have seen heaven. But I don't know if the short time the brain is alive is really enough for that theory to be true.
I decided to look into the previous execution and I am now fully
Copied from Wikipedia:
CW for horrific violence
Despite the fact that Smith had a motion to stay his execution pending before the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit, at 7:45 p.m. on November 17, 2022, a lawyer for the Alabama Department of Corrections emailed Smith's lawyers to let them know they were preparing him for execution.[13] Smith spoke with his wife, and at 7:57 p.m. prison guards ended his phone call with her.[13] Smith was handcuffed and shackled and taken to the execution chamber.[13] Two minutes later, at 7:59 p.m. the Eleventh Circuit issued a stay of execution, which Smith's lawyers immediately provided to the Alabama Department of Corrections.[13]
The Department of Corrections replied that they had received notice of the stay, but did not inform Smith or allow him to speak with his lawyers, instead keeping him strapped to a gurney in the execution chamber.[13] At 10:00 p.m. the execution team entered and attempted to place an IV into Smith's arm. At approximately 10:20 p.m. the United States Supreme Court lifted the Eleventh Circuit's stay of execution. Smith told a member of the execution team that they were inserting the needle into his muscle, but the team member told him that was not true.[13] The team then moved Smith into an inverted crucifixion position and left the room, returning after a few minutes to inject him with an unknown substance, despite Smith's objection.[13] Another individual began repeatedly stabbing Smith's collarbone with a needle, attempting to place a central IV line.[13] The results were unsuccessful and at approximately 11:20 p.m. Smith's execution was called off.[13] Smith was unable to walk or lift his arms on his own, and was sweating and hyperventilating.[13] This marked the third consecutive botched execution by the state of Alabama.[13]
How are they so incapable of killing someone what the fuck? Like just do a firing squad Jesus Christ
One thing I read a while back that made sense to me was that the reason executions are so often botched is that real doctors won't take part in this dumb shit so you only get the lowest CHUD "doctors" performing them.
Innovating new methods for killing people isn’t about making the killing more humane, it’s about assuaging the guilt of those doing the killing
And the guilt of those watching it from the comfort of their homes
Firing squads are all bloody and messy and would make the executioners feel icky
The Fr*nch invented a perfectly humane and reusable execution method for their royals and Americans keep inventing shittier, more expensive and inhumane methods of execution so some private company that harvests nitrogen or makes lethal injection chemicals can make a buck
looking for a new execution method
ask the executioners if their method is fast enough to not think about or agonizing suffering
they dont understand
pull out illustrated diagram explaining what is fast enough to not think about and what is agonizing suffering
they laugh and say "it's a humane execution method sir"
use execution method
its agonizing suffering
This is disgusting. I have no words to express how fucked this is.
In bad country, condemned criminals are dispatched by AA gun, unlike us enlightened countries where we slowly choke a man to death while they desperately try to hold on for a few more seconds of life.
Just fucking shoot people if you want to kill them, psychos. Or if having to kill someone yourself is too hard, don't do it?
Ya I feel super ignorant, but I sorta wonder why Amerika doesn't do a firing squad anymore.
Guilt.
The button that activates these execution methods - lethal injection, electric chairs, etc - are not placed so the executioner can see or hear the event. It's abstracted to a single switch
In firing squad executions, it became common to randomly assign only a couple weapons with live cartridges, the rest with blanks, because it turns out to be very difficult to look at a human being and fire, and the possibility of one having a blank round meant they could walk away and tell themselves their gun just went click
These days though, with how frothing chuds are, I'm sure you'd find volunteers, which is fucking grim
Funnily enough america and Nazi Germany encountered similar situations where they figure out people have a hard time shooting other people and switch to "cleaner" methods of murder. Nazi Germany was on a larger scale, but the same logic had the Holocaust evolve from machine gunning people to the gas chambers. Now america has their own gas chambers.
The Nazis got their gas chamber idea from the Americans. Gas chamber executions were very common in the early 20th century in the US
In a weird way, our fucked up execution methods were an attempt by past progressives to make executions less gratuitous, and every single thing we've come up with in order to do that has been worse (from a "causing unnecessary pain" standpoint) than firing squads and guillotines.
For a crime older than I am, was there even any justice served at this point? The man wasn't actively a threat to society and was instead used as an experiment subject. The only cases I'm even sympathetic to execution are of the monsters that lead to hundreds of deaths through social murder or negligence, but in the western world you just gotta pay less than a single PS5 to the families to get off the hook for that kind of shit and even then just lock them up.
For a crime older than I am, was there even any justice served at this point? The man wasn't actively a threat to society and was instead used as an experiment subject.
Amen. In my view, punishing people for crime is never about justice and always about sadism. Justice is social. Social justice. We should get at the systemic root causes of why crimes are committed in the first place and reduce the rate at which they are committed by addressing those systemic causes. But the false "justice" of the sadistic vigilantes and the reactionaries is to leave the root causes of crime unaddressed, so that they have a never ending supply of convenient scapegoats. Why put an end to things like poverty and addiction when those things are profitable? Why reduce the supply of criminals when you can make a lucrative career out of "defeating crime" by sadistically capturing and punishing individual criminals? These people don't want crime to go away, they want to broaden the definition of crime so that they can capture, enslave, and execute as many as possible.
The only cases I'm even sympathetic to execution are of the monsters that lead to hundreds of deaths through social murder or negligence
Those are precisely the cases which go unpunished because they are crucial to the reproduction of the system as it currently exists. But even this can be addressed systemtically: By getting rid of a system which rewards sadistic vigilantes (cops, judges, prosecutors) with power and prestige.
I would add all C tier executives and board members (and shareholders that hold enough to be just below the board) in any and every company that is large enough to be multi-state/national. Especially those that create the "too big to fail" situations like banks and investment funds. Also including of course the entities that treat basic human needs like housing as stocks to be made more and more costly. So would mean landlords, HOAs (especially those that are not even actively living in the area covered), and fuck it, just no trial required for the insurance (medical and other) and pharmaceutical companies. Along with the politicians taking any money/stocks/kick-backs from any of the groups mentioned (though I am also fine with just literally all current and previous leaders of both false parties).
Part describing the execution
The Department of Corrections had required Hood to sign a waiver agreeing to stay 3 feet (0.9 meters) away from Smith’s gas mask in case the hose supplying the nitrogen came loose.
Smith began to shake and writhe violently, in thrashing spasms and seizure-like movements, at about 7:58 p.m. The force of his movements caused the gurney to visibly move at least once. Smith’s arms pulled against the against the straps holding him to the gurney. He lifted his head off the gurney the gurney and then fell back.
The shaking went on for at least two minutes. Hood repeatedly made the sign of the cross toward Smith. Smith’s wife, who was watching, cried out.
Smith began to take a series of deep gasping breaths, his chest rising noticeably. His breathing was no longer visible at about 8:08 p.m. The corrections officer who had checked the mask before walked over to Smith and looked at him.
The curtains were closed to the viewing room at about 8:15 p.m.
John Brown quote about the crimes of this country etc. etc.
Smith’s wife, who was watching, cried out.
What the fuck, dude
The curtains were closed to the viewing room at about 8:15 p.m.
I refuse to believe this isn't an excerpt from some dystopian sci-fi
Is there some way we could purge this nation's sins? If you know of one, you've just been banned from Reddit dot com.
“To preserve freedom, we must water the tree that produces ballot paper with the blood of poor people”
-Thomas Jefferson
The crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away, but with blood.
Might as well just tie him to a weight and chuck him in a pool as doing this.
It just seems so obviously cruel on it's face, this outcome was always coming.
I don't know how to say this, but it's kind of awesome that by refusing to die he fucked up their attempts at a non-traumatic execution. Seems like he refused to die without a fight and that fucked up the method. Maybe we shouldn't fucking execute people? Especially if we're uncomfortable with them raging against it with all their might.
They’ll develop methods to make the suffering less visible soon enough. They use paralytics in lethal injections not because it has any anesthetic effects (it doesn’t) but because it makes it easier for others to watch. They do give Midazolam though. Lest you give them any credit that’s the equivalent of taking a Tylenol for a bullet to the head.
