There is a lot of answers but if I'd say just one it would be rejecting the current institutional power. At least right now in our time period. Fully rejecting the imperial state, no matter how much they potentially benefit from it seems like a solid transition
we are all lib so let's not gatekeep what leftist™️ actually is. I guarantee you were a lib once too(still are, but once too.)
For me it was a combination of Bernie getting fucked over and looking around and realizing that making things safe and equitable for everybody wasn't the center of all the other lib's politics.
Plus the Chapo episode where they just dunk on the West Wing for an hour.
That's the most honest liberalism I've seen anyone say in awhile and you deserve a :gold-communist: kind stranger
Material conditions. Once they lose the safety of wealth they will learn very quickly how far liberalism get them
yes it's when the stuff on The News intersects with the bubble they currently live in and becomes real.
I agree though that having had some material resources before is a pre-condition to class consciousness of that sense. There are other forms of class consciousness like that of workers who never got beyond paycheck to paycheck in poverty - even in the imperial core - or that of agrarian workers in China in the last century, or indigenous resistance elsewhere.
But the labour aristocracy (which benefits from imperialism) in the core and of that the subsection which had "decent" lives (controlled by full work weeks dividing social relations between you and family, offspring and partners, controlling social relations to you and the community) those need to fall a bit to real change what they think and how they will act within the framework of a mass movement.
The funny thing is that during a transitional period in which money is still accepted and used the vital resources of material, social and mental capacities they can command with it could be used to strengthen our movement. My hot take is: It was good that Engels financed Marx and the party.
I think some people look around and have that “how is no one else seeing this?” moment and are willing to consider solutions to problems outside of electoralism and symbolic protest
That's a pretty good one. There is a shock factor, nobody around me knows shit
I think some people look around and have that “how is no one else seeing this?”
IDK that sounds like most of my life since I was 12 at pretty much anything my deluxe boomer parents and their boomer society did/said/saw on fox news/etc..
Yeah disillusionment is a slow process, but once the momentum builds up it’s hard to stop
I had maybe three months of being a liberal after college when I told myself it was "time to grow up and accept reality as it is." That ended as soon as I started working in an office.
But that's not because I was too clever for liberalism or something - I just always hated people who acted like they had all the answers. If anything, my distaste for them was a little reactionary. I called myself an "anarchist" as a teen, but that really just meant I didn't like cops and I thought voting was dumb. I didn't really hold any true political beliefs back then.
But my tipping point was having to do unethical work during unpaid overtime hours. It was pretty immediate - I think I found r/cth through people complaining about y'all, and that is when I first found a tribe where I could talk about these things and work my beliefs into something more coherent. So yeah, I guess technically I got radicalized by a podcast I never listened to.
I'll also add that I've been somewhat disillusioned with leftist communities lately, as well. There is so much anger and distrust towards the American political establishment right now, and all we do is make fun of these people for being "so close" without figuring it out.
We all ought to spend more time in communities where people don't share our beliefs. Be open about the fact that you're a communist, but don't argue when people complain about it and don't announce it at the start.
I've found a surprising amount of support when I make Marxist takes in plain language. Usually after several people agree, some guy will be like "uh that's communism," and that's your opportunity to say, "Yes, I'm a communist. You're absolutely free to disagree with my views. I just think that the current system is pitting us against each other so a few rich guys can get even richer. " Emphasize the division rhetoric because libs eat that shit up.
For some reason, the person typically sees this non-confrontational response and can't help but go on an 800 word rant hitting every major anti-communist trope. Don't take the bait. If you have to respond, just smile and shrug with an "Agree to disagree!"
Congrats, you've just shown everyone else in the room that the communist is the civil one. I've been playing with this tactic a lot lately and it is amazing how quickly people turn on the aggressor. Libs really care so much more about how you deliver the message than the substance of the message. That's all it takes to get a foot in the door.
From there, you've gained the credibility to start propagandizing in earnest. You never want to seem like you're trying to convince anybody - like the liberals, you have to pretend that simply holding the right moral beliefs is enough. Talk about the material conditions, but use moralism to hammer your points home. Use lib-friendly quotes from your favorite works of theory, and when they ask about it, offer to lend them a book. If someone picks up on what you're doing, it's back to step one: "Whoah, I thought we were just having a conversation. I know I'm not going to change your beliefs and you're not going to change mine, so why don't we move past this?"
Basically, I think that we need a new set of dirtbag tactics that rely less on edgy comedy and more on Machiavellianism. Never talk to these people in good faith, but always keep up the appearance. Earn their trust. Once they come to you with questions, then you can start a more honest dialogue.
How does one not take the bait, especially when the bait is very annoying? How do I learn this self control?
You think how much you would annoy them by appearing just nice human bean, with a plus of being nice human bean
I've known people who go back and forth on the lib/leftist barrier. One thing is a lot of them don't see a distinction, just that we use different words or we're scary because we say positive things about North Korea. I know a girl who has acab tattooed on her shoulder and Kamala Harris on her leg. She does not see a contradiction at all. She goes back and forth between calling herself a socialist and a liberal, because those two words don't mean anything distinct to her. The vast majority of Americans say leftist, Democrat, socialist, liberal, and communist to mean the same thing, including liberals.
I think maybe most Americans define themselves entirely by the boundaries of electoral politics and voting, but more broadly they define themselves as media consumers. They like particular personalities and responses to recent events, they don't care about structured coherent worldviews. The personalities and the responses are the ideology.
What finally tips it most of the time is a frustration with electoral politics and then reading theory. I know that sounds like an excuse, but it's all I've ever experienced. Gotta read and re-educate yourself. The libs who get engrossed in theory and become leftists stay that way. They become more involved in wider leftist movements and usually become more coherent over time. The libs who don't read theory but have more vague leftist sympathies will go back and forth, they'll primarily follow youtube or twitch personalities, they'll have weird idiosyncratic views, and the most important part, they'll snap immediately back into obedient voters for Democrats or maybe Republicans when there's an election. (note: having very close leftist friends or involvement in an org is often a good enough substitute for reading theory directly)
I know a girl who has acab tattooed on her shoulder and Kamala Harris on her leg.
:rust-darkness:
When you're that deep in the dialectics trenches you definitely earned a few medals
A rejection of electoralism. They have to realize that voting isn't what solves problems
This is an ahistorical take unless you add for bourgeois parties and candidates after voting.
Eh I'm mostly talking about USA, where capture of the democratic system is so thorough that even if 80% of the people voted for the PLA or whatever they'd still pretend that no actually Norm McRespectable (Nazi, Delaware) won
Its true for like 95% of countries and all western ones not just the US
When did "voting for (in paper) non bourgeois parties and candidates" solved our issues and moves us closer to socialism. Maybe you can argue a couple latin american countries like Venezuela and Bolivia as exceptions but still these socialist movements have had huge militant non electoralist organizing upholding and catalysing their electoral existance in a way no western equivalent has ever been close to having and even still there probably would have been a straight up revolution and siezure of power if the electoral path was completely denied
these socialist movements have had huge militant non electoralist organizing
Yeah, that's dual power, which is what I was hinting at. Electoralism alone accomplishes nothing
Yeah that's a big one. It can take awhile to truly grasp, like many individuals feel like things can still be fixed if we just had x people in office or less y people. A big part too is like the sunken cost fallacy and so many refuse to admit that it's simply time to try literally anything else. Also its funny how voting is practically a religion to so many libs. It's a lifestyle in a way, and a cultural signifier. The people who put so much faith in electoralism are probably the most lost of them all, cause many will never get past that concept. "Vote the fascists out!"
For me it was climate change, and systemic analysis of its causes. You can't have infinite growth on a finite planet
I agree that this is the most pressing contradiction in capitalism. Climate optimists have such big megaphones though it's really tough to use that as the fulcrum.
Yeah it's wild to me. One of my coworkers left to "focus his career on fighting climate change " but that turned out to mean "building electric car infrastructure" and not blowing up oil pipelines...
you can’t have infinite growth on a finite planet
This, it’s the biggest contradiction under capitalism. There is no way to escape the line of reasoning that at some point in the future, our current mode has to change. It’s what was the tipping point for myself and a couple of my friends
Yeah I can personally attest to seeing the radical change many climate activists can go through when realizing the people with power have absolutely zero will to try and mitigate one of the most important possible things. Especially within the last few years with covid and seeing how there isn't much hope in getting them to do the right thing. There is no illusion now that meaningful change is around the corner. It's grim, I battled with depression over this exact thing cause of how devastating it truly is.
I think the tipping point for me was when
some liberal podcaster coupleI was listening to a podcast by a liberal couple and they said something along the lines of "black people know when to sit down and wait their turn" during some of the black community protests against police violence that had been happening pre-BLM.It was a very unsettling, "are we the baddies" moment.
Edited in that I was listening to a podcast an not talking to people who made podcasts.
I applaud your incredible restraint for not decking them in the face on the spot for that
well you still have good restraint for not throwing your monitor across the room
The final tipping point was democrats abandoning any focus on ICE/DHS after the election
What do you feel is the tipping point for libs to become fascist*
Their being slightly inconvenienced by any minority group fighting for its rights. And/or feeling like their material privilege is potentially threatened in any way by redistributive policies
Raised in a suburb and seeing literally any amount of crime on TV
People are giving examples but generally you need to push through the first firm contradiction of capitalism, whatever that might be for someone. Maybe it's something dealing with our ability and unwillingness to house the homeless.
The point is that, once that have that contradiction resolved or even just in mind, they will begin becoming frustrated with seeing libs ignore it, constantly. They will start seeing contradictions in more places and be more open to leftist analysis
you need to push through the first firm contradiction of capitalism
This cannot be overstated. If you support capitalism in any form or function, you are not capable of truly seeing the systemic damage it is causing around the world. Capitalism is the root cause of our suffering.
When I tried to make this point, repeatedly, in an /antiwork thread, I was constantly met with "yes but have yuo considered CAPITALISM GOOD and YOU TANKIE BAD?"
I know better than to argue with :reddit-logo: but I was hoping the message might get through to someone
:rosa-salute:
For me, sticking around on Radlib subs back in the day, seeing "Tankies" getting downvoted but none of their arguments concretely addressed helped the seed of doubt in my mind to sprout. It may not be much but it adds up. It's why I don't want to fully give up on :reddit-logo: even though I find myself taking breaks often for mental health's sake.
I find myself taking breaks often for mental health’s sake.
That's the trick. Taking breaks from that hellsite has significantly improved my mental health. Additionally, I have curated my :reddit-logo: feed so that I'm not exposed constantly to the worst lib takes, and if I am, it's only to roast them for being the dipshits that they are
I gotta say I've only had it work once (on my wife) and it took so long that I would never even dip my toes into trying to talk to someone on :reddit-logo: ever again. And I used to tolerate discussing atheism with anonymous folks (I know)
But I will continue getting my friends there and, hopefully someday, my community :sicko-biker:
my tipping point was seeing the israeli military tout fucking facial recognition technology to our tour group openly, with my zionist suburbanite upbringing
https://www.theonion.com/teen-on-birthright-trip-hadn-t-expected-to-see-so-many-1824265633
