I step out of Hexbear and into another instance for once and immediately get this shit lmao
I was letting off some steam about how sick and tired I am about working a shit job to make some asshole rich, and I made an off hand remark about how my employer probably belongs in a gulag. Further down the reply chain, this lemmitor asshole shows up to send me a whole tirade full of faux concern, breaking out the psychoanalysis to say I'm just an extremist full of unjustified hatred because I must be a bitter loser. Somehow they come up with this nuclear hot take comparing my anger at the capitalist class to a Christian fundamentalist hating gay people.
But the fucking cherry on the top here is sending me this comment as their very first interaction with me and proceeding to instantly block me to deny me the chance to reply at all. I've seen others use the block feature as a means of getting the last word in, but never to get both the first and last word in at the same time. And in the end, this self-unaware lib ends up calling me the overly self righteous one. Perfect.
Tbh, what gets me is that they were so fucking close to getting it. They almost came to an accurate understanding of the fact that my material conditions as a poor person getting fucked over day in and day out by my employer stealing my labor will heavily inform my politics. But of course they never quite reach that point, instead bizarrely veering off into psychologizing me, and acting like this is all just some sort of character flaw on my part.
Rule one: https://hexbear.net/comment/4738025
"I have nothing good going on in my life, so I've adopted an extreme viewpoint that easily allows me to feel superior to others."
This really jumps out at me and seems to be a trend with libs and fash. Neither libs nor fash, painted with very broad strokes, seem to believe that the other side holds the convictions they claim to. The Fash, at least in the US, have long used terms like "bleeding heart" and "politically correct" to accuse Libs of pretending to care about social issues in bad faith so they can use social issues as a weapon to bludgeon the GOP. Libs, in turn, seem to broadly believe that the Fash are stupid or igniorant. The Libs cannot or will not accept that the Fash are different from them and have different goals and desires. Trying to explain to Libs that Fash want to hurt other people because they enjoy it, and will hurt people they hate or fear even if it causes harm to themselves, is like trying to explain particle physics to a duck. The idea that anyone doesn't share their weird civility fetish and commitment to triangulation can't break through their ideological bias.
Fash seem to believe us to some extent. As Parenti said, they still think we're lying and just using our concern for social justice as a weapon against them, but they do seem to believe we'll do what we say we'll do. Libs seem to mostly dismiss us as deluded children, idiots, or sadists because they have such a warped view of revolutionary violence. The idea that we're painfully, pathetically sincere and disagree with them in good faith, ie our disagreement is sincere and earnest and doesn't have anything to do with them and their politics as team sport, can't land in their heads.
They can't see what we believe as anything but ego, sadism, or foolishness. They can't imagine that many of us are motivated by kindness and love, and our intense hatred grows from the cruelty that we perceive in the world, and in capitalism. To them the system is normal, natural, and sacred. "It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of Capitalism." All they can really see us as is deluded agents of chaos and destruction because they can't imagine anything better than what exists.
RE: later on, where they're talking about wider and wider targets.
It's really something that they cannot imagine any political action outside the narrow confines of their own self imposed rules of civility. You cannot take any action without rapidly becoming a Voltron robot of Pinochet, Hitler, Pol Pot, and their distorted idea of who Stalin and Mao were. If you use violence in any way for any reason you're going to turn in to a frothing monster who just kills people for the sadistic joy of it.
And then thoughtlessly, effortlessly, carelessly, most libs support whatever imperial massacre is being committed right now, they treat the police as a legitimate force that has become corrupt but can be fixed through policy change, they completely support the warmongering of NATO, they ignore or deny western genocides.
It's such a bizarre set of contradictions and many of them either have no awareness of it or see no contradictions. Our violence is normal. Our violence is legitimate. Our violence is morally good or at least neutral. Our actions are never genocide. Even while they're decrying their own leaders for war crimes they have no intention of taking action or doing anything to stop the killing. Their role is merely to state their distaste as an individual for some of the killing, then go back to their normal lives. And anyone who does even float the idea of taking direct action, of opposing the regime, of even identifying the regimes crimes as a feature of the system rather than a deviation caused by corrupt individuals, is denounced as a monster and a sadist.
Also boy howdy do they love comparing us to Christian Fascists and insisting that we believe a world wide workers revolution is just going to magically spring in to existence one day with no effort and no action. I've tried telling them there are honest to god communist, leftist, and anarchist revolutions and movements happening in the world right now but it never seems to land. Again, they cannot and will not consider a position outside their own skewed preconceptions. Their system is perfect, eternal, and unquestionable, marred only by a few corrupt people. Anyone who thinks it could be challenged, that the invincible armies of America might be fallible (despite them being terrified of Jan 6), that America's civic institutions might be cruel by design and inherently unfixable, is simply delusional, an unreasoning fanatic. Never mind that leftist revolutions of all kinds have happened in the past in all sorts of circumstances, never mind that many of them were successful in holding power for decades, never mind that several communist states still persist despite everything, we clearly believe that a magical event will carry us to a magical utopia.
Its also interesting from a literary standpoint when the soyjak tries to cynically fit OP venting about their boss (rightfully so) to some depoliticized pathological template (since history ended and thus only interpersonal problems remain), but can't, since he can't empathize with anyone who is working class, so he just runs up against his own genocidal liberal hysteria again and again, projecting it onto OP while shitting everywhere and crying.
The comparison to Christian fascists is interesting. I grew up in an evangelical cult and follow a lot of ex Christians on TikTok. A lot of these people, when they delve into politics, are unable to see anything but echoes of their own experiences with Christian fascists when talking about any kind of extremism. It’s understandable but I also don’t wanna dismiss people excusing structural violence under capitalism just because they have religious trauma. It’s something I empathize with a lot and simultaneously have no patience for because trying to get through to them often involves retraumatizing myself, too. Shit sucks, especially when I’ve put more energy than your average western leftist into deconstructing all the aspects of Christianity that are just baked into the culture here.
It's long been the case that liberals and chuds in America believe leftist politics are a trick. They claim making demands of a state will in turn cause the state to strip something away and that's simply a function of the universe, rather than simply how capitalist America operates.
"Soviet gulags were less brutal and oppressive than American prisons are now"
"Wow you must be a poor loser, otherwise you would know that America is the unquestioned good in the world and everyone else is the enemy, now let me rattle off 5 more paragraphs of projection about how propagandized and extremist you are."
someone who was in a good place in life wouldn't want to put people in gulags
Wow @wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com what a revelatory thought! It's almost like everyone's lives are getting worse and the people at the bottom are getting increasingly angry about it! It's almost like capitalism is failing and our numbers are increasing every single day while everyone gets increasingly more and more angry about that?
Wow it's almost like the system is not working and is producing the very conditions that will result in its overthrow!
Wow i wonder if any bearded guy wrote about this occurring.
Self righteous dumbass thinks belittling people at the bottom "your life is shit lol you don't get an opinion on society" is the right thing to do instead of asking why society is failing everyone and producing those of us who thoroughly believe the only way that anything will change is revolution.
The part you're roasting is especially vile because the lib's choice of insult only makes sense if one considers having nothing going on in life a personal moral failing on the part of the sufferer as opposed to, as you pointed out, peoples' objective conditions being shit and rapidly getting shittier.
It's wild how there are neoliberal ghouls on that nominally "leftist" instance. Really makes you wonder if there are some ideological problems with their particular brand of "leftism" that it is so immensely compatible with open chauvinism like that.
Wait, dbzer0 is supposed to be a leftist instance? Every time i see somebody from there comment on hexbear, it's either transphobia, homophobia, or shit-tier geopolitics takes, i would've expected them to be hardcore centrist chauvinists, basically like the brain genius in OP's post.
Isn't it? The instance owner is an "anarchist" and runs a comm for it, as we were all privileged with knowing when they decided to trawl for drama with reactionary bullshit. Perhaps that at least elucidates the main commonality in what we've seen:
shit-tier geopolitics takes,
When they were trawling, there was the classic of ultras and liberals arguing side by side repeating the same tired myths and hyperbole.
im still surprised db0 hasnt defederated from hexbear tbh, defederated from grad a long time ago.
db0 has always had fairly reasonable interactions with people here, and understands the presence of anarchists here.
Like, I've had PMs with them and while we have ideological differences there's a pretty clear understanding that we're still on the same side even if he doesn't want a state.
How he lets these ghouls use his instance is beyond me but it could be that it's not really explicitly leftist but simply run by one who isn't ideologically purging libs. This may be a calculation made to not get defederated elsewhere though. Lemmyworld and others would probably call for defed from it for being "tankie", regardless of ideology. They allow their coexistence because they're ideologically non-threatening.
How he lets these ghouls use his instance is beyond me
"Why my antitankie space draws in reactionaries", every single time.
have they ever elaborated on why they defederated from lemmygrad? i still dont understand why someone would defed from one and not the other
Being explicitly tankie i presume. While this community is definitely mixed. I think db0 had some serious hangups over some of the "anti imperialist" support for russia that existed there, although I assume that line of thinking has probably changed a bit over time.
I also think that constant very vocal conversations about "genocide" probably helped cause it. The uighur shit was peaking at the time and a lot of anarchists were struggling with the liberals screaming about it being a real thing vs MLs very vocally and abruptly (and correctly) denying its reality. Anarchists with those hangups who were influenced by that shit have completely changed their tune since Palestine broke out, their expectations of evidence have been forced to change. Everyone understands what an actual genocide produces in way of media now in a country where everyone has smartphones.
God knows what the taiwan position was vs what it might have morphed into over time. I have a feeling it was probably previously supportive of the liberal position but I'm betting that it has now morphed towards that of "status quo" along with the island's population. Having watched what has happened to the people of Ukraine and what the US is supplying in Palestine it has probably caused a change of heart in terms of what's actually best for the people on that island. The US/Nato position is always the worst possible thing.
A lot has changed in the left since that defed. I'm willing to bet on many of the things that caused it having gone through a change of heart.
db0 has always had fairly reasonable interactions with people here
That is just false, do you not remember the saga with them baiting drama over muh tankies and Stalin apparently sending the red army to kill anarchists in Spain?
In fact, many of our mods/admins identify as LGBTQ+, including myself, and we always remove any posts that we deem to be transphobic or homophobic. It would be great if you could report any such posts so we can deal with them. All instances have to deal with problematic behavior from users from time to time, hexbear included. See example below.
- Please "remember the human" and be kind to your fellow leftists.
- Respect that people have differences of opinion and that every leftist has a place in our community. Discussing differences in theory is fine and encouraged, just don't make it personal. Remember: Sectarianism is liberalism.
*removed externally hosted image*
I report any incidence of queerphobia or other hate speech immediately, but these reports will always end up with hexbear mods because i am not interested in federation and browse local only. I'm fine with how our mods handle these reports, i've never had anything to complain about in that regard, but i can only report after somebody has attacked my comrades, my community or myself, so if i see another instance causing problems over and over again and making our queer comms less safe, i will speak out about that.
It is also kinda strange to me that you are invoking the anti-sectarian and "remember the human" rules here when i'm specifically adressing reactionary hate speech. Such speech enjoys zero protection on here, bigots cannot hide behind the rules you cite, i know from experience that this is widely understood both by the userbase and our moderation teams. This is a radical queer safer space, not some liberal salon, we do not tone police marginalized people, we do not demand civility towards queerphobes, ableists, misogynists and racists, and anti-sectarianism does not extend to middle of the road policies, particularly not when they are openly capitalist or imperialist.
FYI, if you report one of our users commenting on your instance, we would still get a report usually, unless there is something unique about the Hexbear instance in that regard. And I haven't seen many reports like that in a long time, usually because we ban those type of users immediately. I'm glad you are reporting people like that, and I'd like to know about it if it does occur. We don't tolerate any transphobic or homophobic content from our users.
Nobody is arguing with you that hate speech should be allowable. But you aren't addressing hate speech, you are accusing our whole instance of being a "non-leftist instance" because you claim some of our users have displayed queerphobia or other hate speech in the past. But you've given us no evidence or information we can act upon. It certainly feels like sectarianism when you are jumping straight to basically accusing our whole instance of not being "left enough" on this limited basis.
I just feel it would be more productive to work together to address these sort of issues, rather than being so hostile. I don't care how much more left you are than me, but I do care about how we moderate our instance, and if we can do it better then I'm open to suggestions.
It's really not "productive" at all how you're handling this when @Simon@lemmy.dbzer0.com was banned for homophobia just 5 days ago, when i've seen a transphobe from db0 get banned in the same timeframe (sorry i'm not giving you names and receipts on that one, it was something with 420 in the username, not gonna sift through all the shit in the modlog any longer) and you then accuse me of making up fake queerphobia claims for "sectarian reasons". In fact it's an incredibly shitty and hurtful thing to deny my experience with bigottry from your instance like that, but your dismissiveness fits well with what i've seen from you people.
I'd kindly ask you to discuss with our mod team if cross-instance reporting works correctly, which is all i have left to say on the matter because i honestly see no option but to disengage from this conversation. I'm out of here.
Did you see the comment in the OP? What do you think of that just going unchallenged? db0 is being a useless contrarian as they usually are, but are you more of an adult?
There's no need to shake our comrade here for receipts when we have vile shit right in front of us that is evidently A-OK in the view of the administration.
I can't see any examples of homophobia or hate speech in the OPs post. All OP seem to be doing is pointing out how toxic your ideology is, where anyone not in the hexbear 'club' is deemed to be the enemy. This has been pointed out on many previous occasions and remains true in large part to this day. I will acknowledge that there are also perfectly reasonable hexbear users, but unfortunately they often get drowned out by all the fanatics.
User reports: Probably iffy on sectarianism.
I don't think this is far enough to warrant removal, but do be careful not to go full sectarianist.
They are really acting like blahaj users now aren't they? "It's okay to be bigoted to the other party if their politics is more radical than yours." In this case replace transphobia with ableism and behind-screen psychoanalysing. I also remember one blahaj mod who, after one of you guys said that ableist mods should be booted, said that booting bigoted mods makes you a tankie.
Shut the fuck up and go purge the neoliberal chauvinists from your instance. When it's actually more recognizable as being anarchist rather than "left-ish with red scare characteristics", we can talk.
"Your specific brand of 'leftism'" did not refer to "anarchism", it referred to your specific brand, which attracts absolute slime like we see in the OP for reasons that you would do well to figure out.
CC: @blashork@hexbear.net this is my reasoning. If insulting someone's boutique nominally-anarchist (actually bidenist) instance is sectarianism, I invite you to take whatever moderation actions you deem appropriate to defend its sordid sanctity.
Well good to know that it's that easy to work around your community rules by just re-labeling the target as "not real leftists". As is tradition of course. Carry on then.
As is tradition of course.
And down goes the paper-thin mask
Well good to know that it's that easy to work around your community rules by just re-labeling the target as "not real leftists".
My sibling in Christ, when you're done pissing your pants over my meanie gatekeeping, try actually reading the comments in the OP. That person is a chauvinist explicitly defending the status quo by saying, in so many words, that all "extremists" are mentally-ill losers looking to power trip. Are you saying that it's newspeak revisionism to claim that a message like that is probably not leftist? Please, tell me where Kropotkin says that revolution is only supported by the bitterest dregs of society and therefore invalid.
Of course you have no problem with your own fucking redbashing, but opportunistically using this shallow patina of anti-sectarianism when it comes to Your Guys is apparently not below you.
Hey, "no sectarianism" is your rule, not ours. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy where the rules are easily bent by just arbitrary relabeling the other side. In truth, you never believed in "no sectarianism". You only use it to enforce groupthink.
In any case, your whole argument above fails since you generalized against our whole instance.
You only use it to enforce groupthink.
Lmao as if we don't argue with eachother on everything here
"Ableism and smuglord attitude is bad" is sectarianism?
All this self-victimizing when it would be so much easier to just ban a blatant chauvinist, but it's more important to you to own teh sectarian tankies than it is to actually administer your instance according to any set of leftist principles.
"It's not sectarianism, when we declare them not real leftists"? Ok then
I’ll spell it out for you a little clearer, since you don’t seem capable of understanding it on your own.
Your entire attitude fucking screams “I have nothing good going on in my life, so I’ve adopted an extreme viewpoint that easily allows me to feel superior to others”.
You see this shit on all sides of the political spectrum. An example you’re likely familiar with and hate would be fanatical/fundamentalist Christians. Nothing truly going right with their life, so they adopt a belief system that gives them an outlet for their hate/anger/frustration where they don’t have to feel bad about it because they are targeting the “bad guys”.
Someone who was in a good place in life wouldn’t be posting shit online calling for putting people in fucking gulags.
You can use all the excuses and mental gymanstics you want, but at the end of the day, you’ve adopted an idealogy where extreme actions are justified and right to take against your “enemy”, and where anyone even slightly advocating for you to slow your roll is instantly redefined as an “enemy”.
You just did that. You start spouting shit about Americans, and when the guy said he wasn’t one you just said that he effectively was one anyway and kept down the path you were already on. That’s absurd.
Anyway, your entire defense for your statements here is that your bad guys are the real bad guys. That’s the beginning and end of it. That type of self righteousness is something to be feared, not something to be championed because you’ve “found the right target”.
Please note, I’ve not made any statement on whether you’re wrong or right in your targeting. That’s a separate discussion.
It has been demonstrated time and time again in historical record the world over, that the fervor of people like you can and will be abused, and shifted towards wider and wider classifications of “targets”.
Anyway, I hope your life situation improves enough someday that you no longer find the need to be a self-righteous asshat on the internet calling for people’s torture. I’m blocking you, so I won’t be around to see it.
"A leftist" apparently
I definitely think so. But there will be an argument over what constitutes revolutionary anarchism vs what constitutes the poisoned internet variant that calls itself anarchism but somehow manages to align itself with the US state department on nearly every single issue. I suspect there would be some disagreement over what you are, although I personally see a revleft anarchist with a lot of things still "in motion" so to speak. Like I mentioned in my below comment it's very obvious that anarchists as a whole have radically changed their opinions of previous propaganda after seeing palestine. This widespread collective change in attitude isn't going to stop here it's going to continue to develop with further events in the coming years, we are seeing a fledgling movement not a matured or experienced one.
Point being that the revleft anarchists here hate the nato-anarchists with every fiber of their being so the decision of what is and is not sectarianism when that becomes questionable can be difficult.
disclaimer: not a mod, personal opinion
Rule 3 does not protect neoliberalism, social darwinism, ableism, or other forms of chauvinism. It doesn't protect redditor smugness and debate pervertry. That's what is being discussed here. That's what is in OP's post. And when it comes to other users from your instance, we regularly need to ban them for transphobia, homophobia and imperialism apologia. And you act like a fucking lib defending his racist uncle about this.
someone who was in a good place in life wouldn't want to put people in gulags
The state's carceral system already does it for him.
Lemmy Turbolib: You only believe in maximizing equality and happiness in the world so you can feel superior!
Please note, I've not made any statement on whether you're wrong or right in your targeting. That's a separate discussion.
Libs are proud of how little they can commit to any position. "Watch me argue myself out of my own argument because that shows I'm smart, taking every position and no position at once. You're the lunatic for having a concrete position about anything."
The question of “free press” and “free speech” is not separable from the question of the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie versus the dictatorship of the proletariat. The idea of “political plurality” as such turns out to be the negation of the possibility of achieving any kind of truth in the realm of politics, it reduces all historical and value claims to the rank of mere opinion. And of course, so long as someone’s political convictions are mere opinion, they won’t rise to defend them. And so the liberal state remains the dictatorial organ of the bourgeoisie, with roads being built or legislation being passed only as commanded by the interests of capital, completely disregarding the interests of workers. Under regimes where political plurality is falsely upheld as a supreme virtue, the very notion of asserting oneself as possessing a truth appears aggressive and “authoritarian.”
from https://redsails.org/brainwashing/
Source is an extert from a discussion about American soldiers who defected to China/North Korea during the Korean war.
Show
"You've adopted an ideology where extreme actions are justified and right to take against your 'enemy' " Hey remember that time America illegally invaded two nations that had nothing to do with 9/11 and killed probably a million(s) people based on what we later found out were lies and then we elected 2 more presidents that continued it while liberals defended it? Weird how they justified extreme actions against an "enemy" like that, huh
"did you know that making a distinction between black people and Nazis makes you stupid?"
enlightened centrist bullshit
This is most likely some smug middle class shithead with a white collar job who has no understanding of how painful the poverty of the people who suffer to uphold his comfortable air-conditioned status quo is.
Imagine being such a self-righteous petty cuck to the elite that you launch into armchair psychoanalysis and pearl-clutch about "muh extremism!!11!!11" when someone anonymously vents about their boss on the internet.
There’s something particularly irritating about liberals and their obsession with psychoanalysis and saying “get therapy” as the ultimate insult/ form of help.
It's just so disingenuous, like all their faux concern. They wield concern like a weapon, to use against people and a shield to prevent people from calling them out.
I've noticed the same thing. Honestly, there's something really dark and insidious about this type of behavior. It's so gross whenever you're arguing with some
user and they sick reddit's suicide hotline bot on your DMs.I know the term is overused and misused a ton online, but this shit is literally gaslighting by definition.
It's super ableist too. "You need help so therefore nothing you say has value."
They're almost right because the function of therapy in the west is to create healthy liberal subjects who are more content with the world
"You see this shit on all sides of the political spectrum" is a statement made by people worth ignoring.
No no, ask him about his opinion of Russians and he'll prove himself right about this
Obviously I got issues with Christian fundamentalists, but the argument that their ideology is what is because “they’ve got nothing going on in their life” is the most “I’m 14 and this is deep” bit of sociology.
That being said, the “you’re American in spirit” line is a bit cringe. Just call them a lib or Western chauvinist, but that phrasing just comes across as clinging to a point that was disproven.
Yeah in the context of the rest of the thread that line made more sense. What happened was they (not the person in the screenshot, it was another user) originally called me edgy and compared me to a 4channer for saying my boss belongs in a gulag. The word edgy is necessarily a comparison, right? Something can't be edgy in a vacuum, it's a word that implies judgement against some sort of normal baseline.
So I brought up how no one is ever called edgy for saying someone belongs in an American prison. I didn't actually initially accuse them of being American, for some reason they thought not being American would somehow refute my point. When they got defensive about that, I poked fun at them by saying they're acting like an American anyway
originally called me edgy and compared me to a 4channer for saying my boss belongs in a gulag
Lmao that pearl-clutching weirdo has never been on 4chan for more than 2 minutes.
I think it's fine. These fuckers behave exactly like American liberals and then use "I'm not even American" as some kind of "gotcha" but it's just showing off how pathetic they are that they worship at the altar of American "civility" despite not even being from the country.
berating you for having opinions on the internet.
posts his opinions on the internet.
this one is pure gold.
also having an @hexbear account will probably get you shouted for this reason alone. sometimes libs hate on me cause i have @ml after my username...
it's extremely funny when they come here to do it then leave after reporting the replies to our mods.
Wow, I know libs have terrible reading comprehension, but they can't tell the difference between lemmy and lemmygrad? That's just sad.
Remember, there are multiple contingents of liberal chauvinists who were obsessively beating the drum of "muh tankie admins" on lemmy and some of it stuck
I guess so. "Tankie" is such a meaningless word to them it usually just means "Person who doesn't like me hurling slurs at people."
Motherfuckers really be writing essays about nothing
Hopefully their life implodes. I want to see the world consume this demon.
You know I really ought to make a proper hexbear account, this helps my motivation, I'm just trying to decide on a good gimmick character
You're not really asking for ideas but here's one anyway. How bout D-alpha? Unknowing people think your gimmick is "alpha male" but you actually provide necessary brain nutrients to dumb commenters.
I didn't know the etymology behind tocopherol, maybe you already did.
...because the vitamin activity was first identified in 1936 from a dietary fertility factor in rats, it was named tocopherol, from Greek τόκος tókos 'birth' and φέρειν phérein 'to bear or carry', that is 'to carry a pregnancy',
So there are puns aplenty there.
If you like pun names with hidden meaning as i do anyway
Hah I do like the pun or hidden meaning, vitamin or medical sounding terms appeal to me too. I think I did read that after I already used the name haha, I actually just took it from the ingredients on something I had, I thought it had a nice sound and look to it and no discernable meaning to bias my comments when read hah.
I'm thinking though like someone from Star Trek or another persona lol, I just always laugh when I see like Rom, Margot Robbie or Dirt_Owl, it gives the space more character!
I literally named my account by the title of an another open tab.
i just took "big chungus" and made it vaguely communist related
Sigh I set up my account on db0 cuz they they were 1) federated with both hexbear and the rest of the larger fediverse and 2) blocked chud instances. Seems like time here will be short.
