- Lib: China bad
- Actual leftist: It's not that simple and you're being lied to.
- Lib: ok but China still bad
- Actual leftist: Here are some sources to read up on.
- Lib: ugh don't make me research, it's probably propaganda, and anyway, let me reiterate my point--China bad
The best way to put it for white people to understand it is to just call them Chinese Scientologists. If they’re libs, especially redditors, bring up that the story is coming from anti-vax, Trump-worshipping Qanoners.
Whats absolutely wild is that people don't know the Epoch Times is owned by Falun Gong and thats where the sources about organ harvesting originate from, and that Falun Gong made these exact same claims a few years ago and the US department of state even put out a press release after going to China to investigate that said there is no basis to any of these claims and they couldn't find any evidence of such things happening. its like our collective memories just get wiped every 10 years and we're perpetually stuck in this never ending cycle that everyone always falls for insisting that THIS time it has to be true.
This article details the problems with the organ harvesting sources
Repackaged in FW:FW:FW: email chain format by the liberal news sites, then repeated on TV media, and then historicized from that point on. Gotta love it.
If Americans do know about them, it's probably through their propaganda arm in Shen Yun or through the heavily biased Wikipedia article. There are a large number of uncited claims there that paint them as persecuted due to being anti-Communist. Surprise, surprise, Wikipedia editors leave it up with a [citation needed] tag.
Honestly if you just told people that the same people pushing the Chinese stuff are also behind Shen Yun you’d probably be more successful.
I really wish I could look back and see what worked for me. I feel like once the ball was rolling in my head that the US media/state and the history I had learned may have been propaganda, suddenly everywhere I looked the US was doing some evil imperialist shit. How did I miss it before, how did I not make the connection?
EDIT: this is particularly hard with anti-USSR and anti-China threads. They love slinging made up fascist talking points and then treat our questioning of sources with Holocaust denial.
I’ve found the best way to shut down their bad faith genocide denial bad faith arguments is to flip it on them. Accuse them of being genocide deniers themselves by enabling a group that openly advocates for exterminating the LGBTQ* community, mixed race couples and leftists. Also, there are some really incisive articles about the Falung Gong by western media sources, use those instead of Grayzone and I’ve found Reddit libs conceding over it.
Why do they do that? Has projecting an incoherent concentrated stream of racism and imperialist propaganda been an effective critique anywhere? Are people abandoning language in favor of communicating in pure shibboleth metadata for improved SEO?
Just as an example of how this could be happening, lets take today's news for example. On the front page, "Uighurs accuse China of mass detention, torture in landmark complaint"
They play it off like this is a mass movement, mass mobilization of a complaint. It sounds like thousands, or tens/hundreds of thousands of "exiles" and "escapees" have independently confirmed the existence of ethnic cleansing.
Then you go on to read about how its "two dozen" people, many of whom are political dissidents. How surprising would it be to find CIA/Falun Gong connections to these 24 individuals?
So disheartening to deal with this shit, I mean for fucks sake.
hey, seeing those petty arguments play out has actually helped me learn a lot, so lets keep it up!
Oh I saw you out here doing good work last time one of our struggle sessions happened so good on you!
i was attacked by libs masquerading as leftists on another forum! it shook me but i read up and realized everything i said was based in fact.
Can we talk though about how half of the sources cited by leftists to dispute claims of human rights violations look exactly like shitty CIA propaganda used to convince people the US isn't repressing minority groups? Like someone linked me a website the other day that said "if the Chinese government were oppressing Uighur Muslims then why are there so many happy Muslims in the region?" That's some TPUSA level bullshit. Other sources are more convincing, but come on guys let's make an effort
Excuse me I get all of my reading on China from "JimsNewMaoistStruggle.blog.com" and it seems perfect reliable to me.
Unfortunately that's my biggest issue with this struggle session.
There's definitely a tendency to seemingly match the tone of imperialist propaganda which is an urge that should be resisted, but we cannot only rely on a dry scientific style because a lot of people will not listen to that.
my question is, if the drop in population growth was the result of forced sterilization, why did one of the largest regions see the exact same drop in the same year. I dont think they sterilized a bunch of Han Chinese too. Also, why would they publish those numbers if they're covering up a genocide?
Literally saw someone on twitter today say that the number deaths in xinjiang now exceed the holocaust
kinda hard considering how everyone who died fighting against/for the nazis were technically victims of the holocaust
There was literally an article sponsored by Twitter (ie it was in the Twitter News section) that was making some insane claim like comparing the propaganda to the holocaust.
- Lib: I'm just using this as an excuse to fuel my racism, ok? I can't imagine a country that wouldn't genocide Muslims, I am projecting.
silly leftists, I think you're missing something really important and that is causing you to represent us as strawmen lol. Let me reiterate: china bad
hmu if you have any questions :)
it’s not something to be presenting to the general population already primed on xenophobia and propaganda.
Ding fucking ding ding.
"actually all nations are bad" I say as my country bombs the shit out of Iraq, "why would I support any nation, I can be against US imperialism and also against all these other nations!"
Luckily my country doesn't bomb the shit out of Iraq :)
Tho my country is still run by neoliberal ghouls, and are only not warmongering because we were pushed into "neutrality" after WWII
Countries that side with the US just export their warmongering into the hands of the US knowing they'll do what they themselves wont
And those countries still create and sell technology used to more efficiently implement imperialist policies.
I'm going to reiterate the notion of conducting meaningful 'research' by reading articles on the internet is farcical.
The reading isn't the problem. Anyone can read. That's not research though. Research is the synthesis of new knowledge from what you've read and learned yourself. That's the tricky bit. The concluding and critical engagement.
Research is the synthesis of new knowledge from what you’ve read and learned yourself.
Using this definition, there's no reason to criticize "reading articles on the internet," because reading is the starting point.
But this definition isn't a good one, anyway, as research often involves nothing more than finding an authoritative source and processing what it has to say. If I'm researching how to fix the brakes on my bike I don't need to synthesize new knowledge -- I just need to learn enough about bike maintenance to locate a good source on brake repair, then go read that source.
there’s no reason to criticize “reading articles on the internet,”
There is when that is taken to be research in of itself.
But this definition isn’t a good one, anyway, as research often involves nothing more than finding an authoritative source and processing what it has to say
Lot of heavy lifting being done by 'processing' there, ignoring what it means for a source to be 'authoritative'.
If I’m researching how to fix the brakes on my bike I don’t need to synthesize new knowledge
Yes you absolutely do. I can and have read all about baking a certain type of loaf or fixing the sagging brake cable on my bike, but is not accurate to say I know how to fix it, because the application of what I read did not lead to a fixed brake cable.
When you read a source on subject matter, it's important to not confuse the knowledge of "what a source has to say about the subject matter" with "knowledge of the subject matter itself." This point totally uncontroversial when it comes to calling out mainstream US reporting but is apparently anathema when applied to anything else.
Oh hey can you prove to me that you're not murdering people and hiding their bodies in a spot I could never find?
What constitutes mass incarceration in a state with north of 1.3 billion people?
The BBC journalist did not say the camps weren't "that bad", they were trying to make them seem really awful and failed completely. Is this the camp you're talking about?
Ok, this is pretty reasonable, but just for some perspective, name one human community in all of history where ABSOLUTELY NO "human rights violations" occurred. States should put a lot of effort into preventing, discouraging, and educating against "human rights violations", but expecting that there will be 0 is unrealistic and dependent on who defines "human rights".
This is a good take and you can still hold this view and support China in their struggle with US imperialism.
That is actually a really good question. China has a role in global capitalism that is arguably the most important besides the USA/W.European core. With their Belt and Road project they are trying to turn themselves into a new core of trade and consumption and cut out the US in the process. I'm not sure what the plan is at the highest levels of the CPC, but I doubt they want to fall into conflict with the US for the foreseeable future while they are still building that.
Really all "support China" means to us is not to start howling for blood over some imperialist bullshit the US is trying to push right now. The US is definitely uncomfortable with China's position right now, and are trying to confront them in order to check their growing influence. Don't contribute to the propaganda drive that calls for regime change or anything like that. Besides that, there isn't much else for us to do. China runs its own affairs and our role in America is not to support interference.
