We're not voting for him libs, get the fuck over it already lol.

  • RedArmor [he/him]
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    4 years ago

    Why would I vote for Biden? He offers absolutely nothing but vague platitudes and a promise to the bourgeoisie that “nothing will fundamentally change.”

    • gringosoldier [comrade/them]
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      4 years ago

      RGB is basically Lady Cassandra from Doctor Who at this point -- nothing more than a sheet of skin stretched over a skeleton. She's ready to disintegrate the moment the wind blows a little too hard.

      The very real, immediate result of 4 more years of Trump is the Supreme Court will never rule in a way you agree with -- including overturning Roe v. Wade and abolishing access to abortion in this country overnight. Let's be real: today's Democrats wont try to pack the court again -- which means we'll never see actual progress in this country within our lifetimes no matter who the fuck is president.

      I know it's one of the tactics libs use to scare people into voting Biding, but in this case they're 100% right. There just doesn't exist a path for the left with a completely rigged Supreme Court unless a dem president grew a spine or we had a constitutional convention and neither of those things are gonna happen.

      • captchaintherye [any]
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        4 years ago

        "We must elect the guy who smeared a sexual assault victim to help Clarence Thomas get on the Supreme Court, and rallied Dems to vote for Scalia, so that we may save the Court from the evil clutches of Trump"

        • _else [she/her,they/them]
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          4 years ago

          this. we already lost. like, everything said is true-but its just as true of biden-harris as trumpence.

        • gringosoldier [comrade/them]
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          4 years ago

          I need a shower and a very rough loofah to rub my bare skin raw every time I think it, but the alternative is the Honorable Tom fucking Cotton and Ted Cruz.

          • captchaintherye [any]
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            4 years ago

            I think that's just Trump doing dumbass Trump soundbites. The actual nominees would be whoever the establishment wants them to be, just like under Biden. They shove a piece of paper under Trump's dumbass nose, he signs it, and then he does a press junket to say how it was his idea the whole time. Like with everything else.

            • gringosoldier [comrade/them]
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              4 years ago

              That might be true, but we don't know a Trump that isn't concerned with being elected another 4 years yet. I don't want to fuck around and find out.

              Regardless, any justice he appoints will be just as evil regarding all practical considerations.

              • captchaintherye [any]
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                4 years ago

                I really don't think Trump will move toward outright fascism given 4 more years. I think the politics will remain more or less the same, but the "don't give a fuck Trump" will go more in the direction of doing less restrained tweeting, talking about toilets in public speaking appearances, and turning around and launching White Castle farts into the White House press pit.

                • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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                  4 years ago

                  I really don’t think Trump will move toward outright fascism given 4 more years.

                  I mean we're already at the "abduct leftists in unmarked vans and talk openly about calling in the military to massacre them" stage; where do you see that going?

        • gringosoldier [comrade/them]
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          4 years ago

          The Supreme Court is already gone and honestly has needed to be reformed for a long time now.

          That's not going to happen when you make it harder. If you want to wait for the left to be quashed until enough grassroots momentum develops for a full scale revolution, then a lot of people are going to be hurt or die assuming it's even possible at all.

        • gringosoldier [comrade/them]
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          4 years ago

          Everyone here would support a viable alternative, but when the leftist movement in America currently consists of a few podcasts, powerless niche political parties, a few problematic congresspeople and a presidential candidate -- then worrying about the SCOTUS isn't lib shit but simply practical shit.

    • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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      4 years ago

      nothing will fundamentally change

      The only pro-Biden argument is that things not fundamentally changing (i.e., things continuing to get worse) is still better than things fundamentally changing in the wrong direction (i.e., things getting much worse, much more quickly, in ways that significantly escalate what we'd need to do to turn things around).

      If the left were more organized accelerationism would make sense. I don't think it makes sense with the level of organization we have now.

        • joshieecs [he/him,any]
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          4 years ago

          hello sir my car is broken and does not run anymore, i would like it repaired to exactly the state it was is in just moments before the wheels fell off thank you.

          • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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            4 years ago

            But the choice is between that and torching your car. One is a shitty non-solution that at best will let you limp another mile, the other is accelerating the problem.

            • joshieecs [he/him,any]
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              4 years ago

              if we are going to torture this analogy further, then i do also have a bike in my trunk (state and local government + congress) that works all right, and i can get on it and sweat a little. but i know if i let the sketchy repair guy barely fix my car, the odds are very high the bike will get stolen. and then my car will immediately fall apart again, and i will be stranded again just like before, but sans bike and whatever arm and leg it cost me to pay the mechanic.

        • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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          4 years ago

          Joe Biden in 2020 would do nothing to prevent Tom Cotton in 2024, yes. What Biden would do is (arguably) give the left more time to grow and organize. With Biden we're strolling lazily towards fascism; with Trump we're sprinting there. The left is not ready for sprinting there.

          • captchaintherye [any]
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            4 years ago

            Joe Biden in 2020 would do nothing to prevent Tom Cotton in 2024, yes. What Biden would do is (arguably) give the left more time to grow and organize. With Biden we’re strolling lazily towards fascism; with Trump we’re sprinting there. The left is not ready for sprinting there.

            The left organized WAY more under Trump than under Biden.

            Please do not misconstrue this as support for Trump. I am voting for neither. Just addressing this one shitty argument.

            • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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              4 years ago

              The left organized WAY more under Trump than under Biden.

              I'm guessing you mean Obama, not Biden.

              First, the material conditions of many people are worse today than they were in, say, 2011. It's also no longer plausible to sell people on any sort of slowly-building economic recovery. Second, Obama had a progressive veneer, was incredibly charismatic, and was subjected to all sorts of horrible racist attacks from chuds. From a retail politics standpoint that all made it harder for any sort of left criticism to stick. Third, there was no real infrastructure for any sort of mass leftist movement when Obama was elected (and the closest thing that did exist was his campaign). Compare the protest/media/electoral leftist ecosystem today to that of 2008, and you'll find there's no comparison at all.

              If Biden wins he will take office in an economy much more conducive to leftist organizing, will have almost none of the personal/tactical advantages Obama had, and will face much stronger leftist criticism from Day 1.

            • gringosoldier [comrade/them]
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              4 years ago

              The left organized WAY more under Trump than under Biden.

              Also assuming you meant Obama. The left was almost non-existant in any real visible capacity to the average American until after 4 years of Obama. I'm old enough to remember and have been a leftist since Clinton. To me, that's solid anecdotal evidence that ineffectual dem leadership is more mobalising for the left than transparent fascism for whatever reason.

              Libs are immediately pacified as soon as their guy is elected while people that have a modicum of human empathy become more frusted. Trying to play fucking 4D chess about this is going to hurt the left.

              • RandomWords [he/him]
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                4 years ago

                obama already serves as the mark for ineffective democratic leadership, biden isn't going to change that, and it doesn't need to be refreshed. what organizes and drives people left is adversity, which is still there during a dumb ass neo-liberal, but much more apparent under a neo-con.

                four more years of trump gives the shit time to fester to the surface, which is necessary for people to actual realize what the fuck is happening.

                cops have been killing minorities for decades, under obama, under bush, under clinton, the entire fucking time and the whole time it got swept under the fucking rug. that shit only got any real attention because even the mainstream media has to use it as an attack against trump.

                trump being president is like a giant shining light on all that is wrong with america, and that light turns off under biden. you are arguing against logic. stop.

              • captchaintherye [any]
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                4 years ago

                I think Trump is less bad of the two horrible options, but again, "prefer" is a tricky word. That tiny margin of preference is not enough to motivate me to vote for Trump. I can't morally pull that lever for someone that monstrous.

                I think our political struggle would face fewer obstacles under Trump, but that is not a reason in and of itself to vote for Trump.

                • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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                  4 years ago

                  I think our political struggle would face fewer obstacles under Trump

                  Trump is already kidnapping leftists using unmarked vans and federal goons who refuse to identify who they work for. Literally the only reason you run that sort of operation is so that -- if you decide you want to -- you can indefinitely detain or even disappear someone.

                  How is that (and what it is obviously setting the stage for) less of an obstacle than whatever Biden would do?

                  • captchaintherye [any]
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                    4 years ago

                    Trump is already kidnapping leftists using unmarked vans and federal goons who refuse to identify who they work for. Literally the only reason you run that sort of operation is so that – if you decide you want to – you can indefinitely detain or even disappear someone.

                    Please spare me the argument that Biden, who was the VP when Obama disappeared American citizens, ran secret prisons, and helped the authorities crack leftist skulls at Standing Rock and Occupy Wall Street, would respect the Constitution™ and not use strongarm tactics against BLM protesters.

                    He is literally telling you while running for president that he will round these people up and arrest them. What more do you need to tell you that he's indistinguishable from Trump on this issue?

                    How is that (and what it is obviously setting the stage for) less of an obstacle than whatever Biden would do?

                    Because you've localized it to one issue where you argue (erroneously, IMO) that Biden wouldn't use fascist measures where Trump is.

                    In reality, the Dems are the much bigger obstacle to the left organizing. The Dems are squatting on the "opposition party" and positioning themselves as "the left", and then not doing anything "left" and enabling the right.

                    They are a dampening agent on the left. They are occupying the only weapon we have in terms of electoralism, and rendering it useless. Putting them in power does nothing to stop Republicans, as they thirst to work with them to oppress the people. And it normalizes "the left" being right wing, as Biden's corpse starts more wars and imposes more austerity, and the Republicans move to the right to keep their Nazi street cred. Pushing us further right off the cliff to oblivion. We've repeated this cycle a dozen times; this time is no different.

                    If you want to argue that electoralism is meaningless and we should ignore it, that's fine. That's another thread. But if we are starting with the premise that electoralism has any worth at all, then it has to start with unseating shitty Democrats. And handing Biden the keys to the White House is going to set that process back a decade.

                  • KammeraadDouwe [he/him]
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                    4 years ago

                    Yeah, the only argument for this is if you believe in accelerationism.

                  • Chapo0114 [comrade/them, he/him]
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                    4 years ago

                    Biden is a segregationist that wrote the 1994 Crime Bill he still supports. He's not good for PoCs, he's absolutely a racist.

                  • Keleyva [any]
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                    4 years ago

                    lmfao was gonna comment the exact same thing

          • joshieecs [he/him,any]
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            4 years ago

            wrong, we will get our shit totally wrecked

            https://i.imgur.com/GFSSat0.jpg

            i am leaning towards the idea that the best case is for Biden to lose, but Dems take control of the senate so they can block all Trump's nominees for 4 years. but it's hard to say how Trump would act without McConnell there to kill everything in the Senate. i think Dems could send bills to his desk, he might actually sign some of them. i think he would even sign single-payer if they called it "Trumpcare" and he'd secure his big ego a huge legacy (at least narrowly on healthcare) like tommy douglas in canada. haha, who i am i kidding, the dems would never pass a single-payer bill. (Trump has genuinely supported single-payer for decades.)

            of course, Trump leaning into some kind of right-wing nationalism but with welfare state policies (hmmm is there a name for such a thing), it would be absolutely devastating politically for the liberals who have been offering absolutely nothing, and insufferably smug about, too.

            • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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              4 years ago

              the best case is for Biden to lose, but Dems take control of the senate so they can block all Trump’s nominees for 4 years

              That could be the best scenario, but I doubt Dems have the fortitude or party coherence to stonewall like that. I don't think there's any chance they'd stonewall a Supreme Court nominee for years, especially, and there's a good chance they'd lose the ensuing legal battle if they tried.

              There's also a chance this could lead to Trump being impeached again, but removed this time, which would leave us with President Pence. Again, I don't know if libs could get their act together enough to do this, but that + a Democratic Congress would probably be even better than Trump with a Democratic Congress.

              • joshieecs [he/him,any]
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                4 years ago

                I doubt there would be 67 votes to remove him. You might be right about the court, but in my opinion (and this is a narrowly tailored kind of accelerationism) I think anything that convinces the libs the SCOTUS is illegitimate is probably good. Because even if Biden wins he is going to put stooges like Garland on it. Even in a best-case scenario, where and AOC/Lee Carter ticket wins the white house, the court is going to fuck any left-wing agenda hard, whether it's Biden nominees or Trump nominees.

                I actually think the Senate would stonewall Trump's nominees, but they are fucking PISSED at McConnell for his strategy of "turning the Senate into a graveyard." They did not get to that point in a political career to be nothing but bench warmers to prevent McConnell from pulling some kind of wonky quorum bullshit and do god knows what while Dems are doing whatever the do in DC. For example, even Joe fuckin Manchin has gone back and forth on the filibuster. Not for any ideological reasons, but just because if they don't nothing will happen even if they do take the Senate majority.

                • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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                  4 years ago

                  and this is a narrowly tailored kind of accelerationism

                  I don't think you can really do accelerationism with any sort of control.

                  Even in a best-case scenario, where and AOC/Lee Carter ticket wins the white house, the court is going to fuck any left-wing agenda hard

                  Not necessarily; FDR was able to do a lot of stuff similar to what the AOC wing of the party is suggesting now, and the power of the federal government has almost universally increased since then.

                  They did not get to that point in a political career to be nothing but bench warmers

                  I doubt they're actually concerned about this -- as a politician there's nothing better for your continued electoral hopes than not being able to do anything and having someone else to blame it on. If you do something, it might not work and you might take the heat.

                  • PorkrollPosadist [he/him, they/them]
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                    4 years ago

                    Not necessarily; FDR was able to do a lot of stuff similar to what the AOC wing of the party is suggesting now, and the power of the federal government has almost universally increased since then.

                    Right, but the reason FDR was able to do this is because he was prepared to tell the court to go fuck themselves and the court decided it was better to concede to his agenda then establish the precedent of being cuckolded by the White House. Will the modern Democratic Party be willing to disregard the judicial branch? Will the media abide it? Will the liberals? I don't think so. The Democratic Party under FDR was an entirely different animal than the one we have today.

            • PorkrollPosadist [he/him, they/them]
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              4 years ago

              Really, it isn't a question of which one will help grow the left. Neither of them will help grow the left. They are both dedicated to a system which vows to eradicate the left.

              Neither administration will lift a finger to make our task of organizing easier. Both candidates are in a pissing contest vowing to crack down on "aNtIfA" harder than the alternative in an effort to appease the suburban petit bourgeois fascists. The real answer is that it ultimately doesn't matter who wins. This is not a democratic process under any pretense. This country is not operating with "the consent of the governed" in any measurable fashion. The election is a charade, and to get caught up in the outcome one way or another is a waste of precious sanity.

              The "Trump may be better for the left" takes are cringe. The "Biden may be better for the left" takes are cringe. They are both good for capital, they are both bad for us, and the whole circus is so far removed from the things the masses actually have control over.

              • VolcelVanguard [he/him]
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                4 years ago

                If the left is going to grow in this country it's up to us to convert our friends and neighbors. The worsening of material contiditions under Trump is just as likely to drive people to the right as it is to the left. Biden might be scum and I personally won't be voting for him, but he will preserve the status quo giving us four more years to organize. Under Trump it's entirety possible that "far left" organization will be made a priority target. In fact he's doing right now by strawmaning Biden as an Antifa puppet.

                  • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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                    4 years ago

                    When all the libs are out to brunch and scolding the left for criticizing Biden (just like during Obama)

                    The libs don't actually like Biden the way they like Obama. He's just "not Trump" to them.

                • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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                  4 years ago

                  Under Trump it’s entirety possible that “far left” organization will be made a priority target. In fact he’s doing right now by strawmaning Biden as an Antifa puppet.

                  Federal goons are already arresting DSA organizers.

              • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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                4 years ago

                Neither administration will lift a finger to make our task of organizing easier.

                Of course they aren't going to actively help; the question is which will create an environment more conducive to recruiting leftists. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the side currently abducting leftists in unmarked vans (and that's openly discussing when they can order the military to shoot leftists) is not going to create the best environment for the left.

                • Gay_Wrath [fae/faer]
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                  4 years ago

                  biden literally said anarchists should be prosecuted. not gonna count on him stopping that shit.

                  • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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                    4 years ago

                    In Biden's pudding/lib brain:

                    smashed windows disrupt brunch -> smashed windows are bad -> anarchists do mindless violence, right? -> these people smashing windows (who of course have no legitimate grievances) must be anarchists -> I'll say they should be arrested so people can get back to brunch

                    That's the extent of his ideological opposition to anarchists. It's standard conservative "law and order" stuff with less racial coding. Republicans, on the other hand, have spent decades building elaborate propaganda machines to equate anything left of Ronald Reagan with the worst shit you can think of.

            • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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              4 years ago

              Trump would probably help the left grow more than Biden

              I don't think many people who say this are actually serious about it, because if they were they'd vote Trump. After all, voting is not some moral referendum; it's a (heavily limited) political tactic. Trump = acceleration, and for the reasons stated above the left is not ready for acceleration. You don't seek out a conflict when you're small and disorganized.

              Please take a look who gutted M4A and GND, and tell me if Trump can even top that.

              You're talking about "gutting" policies that don't even exist and that likely wouldn't exist even if Bernie was the nominee, won, and somehow got a Democratic majority, too. M4A and GND are imaginary at this point, so gutting them doesn't mean anything in the real world. Literally anything Trump does that has real-world consequences is worse.

              pretend like everything is OK

              What part of "the left needs to grow and organize and needs the best possible environment for that" is "pretending like everything is OK?"

              • joshieecs [he/him,any]
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                4 years ago

                It's not necessarily accelerationism to think that the liberals in a Biden administration would use every ounce of political power to crush the left, rather than the right. Whereas if Biden loses, the liberals will be split between playing defense and punching left. The right doesn't understand the difference between the left and liberals in the first place.

                There is also a strong argument to be made that if Biden wins, the Republicans will make gains in state and local, and in congress. It happened extensively under Obama. Then you are weighing one office, the presidency, against a slew of other parts of government. If we're being honest your state and local government has a lot more impact on your day to day life than the president. The people from whom the president matters most are people who live in red states, and not in the city. The people for whom the downballot matters most are people in the swing states. So if you live in Michigan, you might wonder, are you willing to risk getting another Rick Snyder running your state just so Biden can do fuck all in the White House for 4 years, and set Kamala up to lose to Tom Cotton or Josh Hawley or Nikki Haley or some other asshole who is much more competent ghoul than Trump?

                • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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                  4 years ago

                  There is also a strong argument to be made that if Biden wins, the Republicans will make gains in state and local, and in congress.

                  Why wouldn't that happen under a hypothetical Sanders administration? "We're better off with the GOP in office because otherwise the GOP will win more lower seats" can't be the logic all the time, or else we'd just willingly hand over the keys to them every four years. I'd wager at least part of the answer is that a black man with an exotic-sounding name breaks chud brains in a way a white guy named "Joe" won't.

                  • joshieecs [he/him,any]
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                    4 years ago

                    Who can know for sure, but I think the fact that the Sanders administration would be doggedly focused on addressing all of the pain points and kitchen table issues people are experiencing. If he was the "organizer in chief" I think is a radically different scenario from what Obama did (he basically dismantled his massive grassroots apparatus when he won) and surely would be different from what Biden will do if he wins.

                  • captchaintherye [any]
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                    4 years ago

                    Doesn’t that say something about how good or bad he really is for the left? There’s a lot of tension between “Trump would be better than Biden for the left” and “no fucking way would I ever vote for Trump.”

                    "Better" implies Trump would actually good. I don't like to use that word. I prefer to say "Trump would be slightly less apocalyptically bad than Biden" for the left.

                    There's two bad choices for the left, which is why I'm not participating. But if we're spinning out which future scenario would more likely lead to less shitty outcomes for leftists, it's the one that gets us closer to wiping out the Democratic Party completely, since they are the more immediate threat to leftists having viable political alternatives, far more than Republicans are.

                • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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                  4 years ago

                  No self respecting leftist is going to vote for Trump

                  Doesn't that say something about how good or bad he really is for the left? There's a lot of tension between "Trump would be better than Biden for the left" and "no fucking way would I ever vote for Trump."

                  So you really think the corporate elites are going to let even a center left soc dem like Bernie Sanders come close to power again?

                  You could have said the same thing after 2016, yet there he was as the Democratic frontrunner in 2020 through the first four primaries. Corporate elites have enormous sway over elections, but they can't just determine the outcome by flipping a switch. To kneecap Bernie they needed (1) the left not to be too strong, (2) a centrist politician with at least some credible public support, and (3) some coordinating force -- Obama, in this case -- to persuade centrist candidates to drop out on cue. There were other factors that helped them pull it off in 2020, and there are a dozen random things that could have wrapped it up for Bernie no matter what they did (imagine if covid or the Tara Reade story hit two months earlier). And don't forget, Bernie is not an especially strong candidate. He's old, he's not particularly charismatic, he had to create a political base from scratch, he had no allies in the party, and he comes from a state too tiny to have much of an electoral impact. If anything about that situation changes in the future, there's no guarantee they'll be able to job another candidate the way they jobbed Bernie.

                  But now if his supporters capitulated, the bourgeoisie will not be afraid anymore.

                  No matter what the left does, the left doesn't get to decide how that's portrayed in the media because the left's media arm is still in its infancy. They're going to try to blame the left for any negative outcome no matter what we do. We can't control the narrative, so the discussion is about what little influence we do have on the end result, and what result we'd prefer.

            • cracksmoke2020 [none/use name]
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              4 years ago

              Should the KDP have worked with the SDP in Weimar Germany is a timeless question and it manifests itself today in our choices.