Approximately 50% of what you hear is outright propaganda, as we know the CIA’s affiliates churn out. We also see CIA assets pushing narratives on Reddit. The next 25% is poorly researched speculation by an evangelical end-timer, and the final 25% is an accurate description of the PRC’s response to far right, religious terrorism and separatism.
First, let’s just establish using safe, American sources that a bunch of Uyghur people went to fight with ISIS in Syria, then returned. Let’s also establish that there have been consistent terrorist attacks with significant casualties and that the CIA and CIA front-groups have funded and stoked Islamic extremism across the world for geopolitical gain.
Now, we need to consider potential responses.
The CPC could give up and surrender Xinjiang to ISIS. This option condemns millions of people to living under a fundamentalist Islamic State, including many non-Muslims and non-extreme Muslims. This option creates a CIA-aligned state on the border, and jeopardises a key part of the Belt and Road initiative, which is designed to connect landlocked countries for development and geopolitical positioning. This option also threatens the CPC’s legitimacy, as keeping China together is a historical signifier of the Mandate of Heaven.
The next option is the American option. Drone strike, black-site, or otherwise liquidate anyone who could be associated with Islamic extremism. Be liberal in doing so. Make children fear blue skies because of drones. When the orphaned young children grow up, do it all again. You can also throw a literal man-made famine in there if you want.
The final option is the Chinese option. Mass surveillance. Use AI to liberally target anyone who may be at risk of radicalisation for re-education. Teach them the lingua franca of China, Mandarin. Pump money into the region for development. When people finish their time in re-education, set them up with state jobs. Keep the surveillance up. Allow and even celebrate local religious customs, but make sure the leaders are on-side with the party.
Let’s take a moment to distinguish that last approach from that of Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany wanted to exterminate the undesirables. Initially it was internment in concentration camps with the outcome up in the air, with a vague hope of shipping them to Madagascar or palestine, but it later morphed into full extermination. All throughout, Nazi Germany was pushing strong rhetoric of antisemitism and stoking ethnic hatred in the public sphere.
There’s no evidence, including from leaked papers, that the goal of the deradicalisation programme is permanent internment or annihilation of Islam. In fact, the leaked papers have Xi explicitly saying Islam should not be annihilated from China:
Mr. Xi also told officials to not discriminate against Uighurs and to respect their right to worship. He warned against overreacting to natural friction between Uighurs and Han Chinese, the nation’s dominant ethnic group, and rejected proposals to try to eliminate Islam entirely in China.
“In light of separatist and terrorist forces under the banner of Islam, some people have argued that Islam should be restricted or even eradicated,” he said during the Beijing conference. He called that view “biased, even wrong.”
As for permanent internment, we know from leaks that the minimum duration of detention is one year — though accounts from ex-detainees suggest that some are released sooner.
Unlike Nazi Germany, there’s no stoking of inter-ethnic hatred or elimination of a specific culture; the CPC actively censors footage from terrorist attacks in China to avoid such an outcome. Xi doesn’t go on TV calling any ethnicity rapists or murderers. Uighur culture is actively celebrated in the media and via tourism. Xinjiang has 24,400 mosques, one per 530 Muslims. That’s three mosques per capita more than their western peers.
Could China’s approach be done better? Almost certainly. Is it the most humane response to extremism we’ve seen so far? That’s for you to decide.
(Reposted from here )
Brilliant post. This is exactly what I was looking for. The "official" story you hear in the west is so CLEARLY propaganda that I really needed to hear the other side of the story.
It didn't even come from chapo lol, it's copied off of Reddit
Yeah it’s one of those things where you know it’s a crude system that’ll almost certainly scoop up people who don’t need it, but it’s also the least bad available option.
guys imprisoning people who follow a certain religion for "terrorism" is good, now that that's done away with we can get back to our discussion on how terrible gitmo is
Could China’s approach be done better? Almost certainly. Is it the most humane response to extremism we’ve seen so far? That’s for you to decide.
That’s for you to decide.
that comment was me deciding youre infringing on my freedoms
there's a very big difference between "imprisoning muslims because they might be terrorists" and "imprisoning muslims because they follow islam"
I think it's also important to note that the majority of people sent through the re-education system just ended up with vocational training and a job that paid significantly more than what they had before. That alone is probably the biggest driver of de-radicalization. Who would think that improving people's material conditions would lead to them being less inclined to join a radical separatist organization?
Both states say the former though, who are you kidding? You can argue over which one is being more truthful but you're literally just deciding to think critically only about the US's justification and not China's.
you forgot the most important part( at least for me): china says UN can visit the area to investigate any human right abuses in the area. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3122800/china-would-welcome-un-human-rights-council-visit-because. also my criticism. I am in turkey and the goverment spents too much on religious affairs but even with that, we have 1 moskue for around 1000 people. Number of mosques seems more than needed for me but that is another country so I dunno. Also censoring terror attacks might be good against racism but people should have a right to access info of the situation. Racism supression should be done without censorchip
Can't believe 'ISIS existed so we have to put all these Muslims in camps' is an actual take
What do you think happens to people in western countries spreading terrorist propaganda? Right they sent them to prison.
Also western intelligence seems to be not opposed to the concept of early deradicalisation, here is an interesting take from Richard Barrett, former director of global counter-terrorism at MI6:We need to get to potential terrorists before radicalisation, not afterwards Once an individual has fallen for extremist propaganda, it’s hard to change their mind. Better to spot the early signs
And why should what western countries do make a difference? Are they the epitome of virtue now?
Also, you're literally engaging in right wing talking points when you describe all the Muslims in the province as terrorists or terrorist sympathisers
Also, you’re literally engaging in right wing talking points when you describe all the Muslims in the province as terrorists or terrorist sympathisers
I'm not doing that, I don't know where you get that impression, but okay.
Imagine you could go back in time and have an actual state power in Iraq, instead of the hollow shell US contractors left it with, and implement adequate deradicalisation programmes.
Would you do so? Or would you wait a few years, then bomb Raqqa to rubble?
I feel like there's room for nuance between doing whatever the fuck the US did and putting Muslims in camps
I figured ‘use various measures to target people prone to far right extremism, teach them why that’s wrong, then provide employment, while investing in the region to address the material conditions that led to the unrest’ was the nuanced approach.
I’m sure there are ways it can be improved, and I’m sure their approach has its excesses. I’m just so far unconvinced that there’s any better historic approach to draw upon.
If you know of any, please let me know.
leave Xinjiang as an autonomous zone, continue to offer voluntary education and work programs and welcome any refugees to China. Carrot vs stick.
The American South is a region filled with religious extremists, some of whom have already radicalized to the point of committing acts of terrorism. Should we make it its own country and fund their schools to boot? Is that likely to improve the situation or make it worse?
you can make the same argument for Hamas in Palestine and Herzbollah in Lebanon. Occupying territories which do not want to be occupied is imperialism.
Edit: sorry, I read "American South" as in South America rather than Southern USA. In the case of USA, yes an ideal leftwing government in my world would help fund a grassroots leftist resistance for BIPOC rather than forced re-education camps for poor working class white people
There is a difference between giving the Palestinians their country back vs making a new country to placate religious extremists
It's not "making a new country" it's recognizing autonomy of the people of Xinjiang.
Occupying territories which do not want to be occupied is imperialism.
Is the U.S. occupying Mississippi and Alabama?
yeah the american government needs to fuck off and recognise indigenous sovereignty.
sorry, I misread “American South” in the original comment as in South America rather than Southern USA. In the case of USA, yes an ideal leftwing government in my world would help fund a grassroots leftist resistance for BIPOC rather than forced re-education camps for poor working class white people
Likely to improve the situation. Even if the situation does not improve, their failure (and chance to learn from their mistakes) is now in their own hands. Autonomy and self determination are principles that should be upheld... Wherever we can uphold them.
The CPC could give up and surrender Xinjiang to ISIS. This option condemns millions of people to living under a fundamentalist Islamic State, including many non-Muslims and non-extreme Muslims. This option creates a CIA-aligned state on the border, and jeopardises a key part of the Belt and Road initiative, which is designed to connect landlocked countries for development and geopolitical positioning. This option also threatens the CPC’s legitimacy, as keeping China together is a historical signifier of the Mandate of Heaven.
The CPC could give up and surrender Xinjiang to ISIS.
Do you really think that's what would happen if Xinjiang was given autonomy?
You dont think "many non-Muslims and non-extreme Muslims" could resist this on a grassroots level - especially if given humanitarian support from China?
So the plan is to slice up your country knowing that a civil war is likely in the breakaway state? This is getting better and better.
"your country" is why I have an issue here. The CPC doesn't own China. The people of China own China and if they have issues with the government their needs should be met.
ur country” is why I have an issue here. The CPC doesn’t own China. The people of China own China and if they have issues with the government their needs should be me
"the party that rules the state of China is not responsible for the condition of the state of China" -ap1
Would you say the same about Muslims in Germany? Do you think Germany should be putting all the Muslims in camps?
What evidence is the claim that China is putting all Muslims in camps based on? If you don't mind me asking.
I would never trust any level of government in the US to humanely run a re-education camp.
I'm well aware of the problems of religious extremism, I just don't believe that putting people you suspect of having sympathies to extremist groups in internment camps to be an appropriate form of combatting it. Rehabilitation programs should certainly be used and I'd definitely support de-radicalisation efforts (e.g messaging) in local communities, but what China actually seems to be doing (taking people they assume might have sympathies to put them in camps against their will) is just indefensible to me. If you're ok with that, fine, we evidently have different values, but I don't think we can pretend this is the only way of going about this here, and there is good reason why other nations with similar issues have not taken the same approach (granted these aren't perfect but you get the picture).
If they’re anything like other western countries, they already do.
Typically it’s standard to have refugees undergo basic language and civics education before integrating them with the rest of the community. The gold standard is to set them up with subsequent employment.
Typically it’s standard to have refugees undergo basic language and civics education before integrating them with the rest of the community. The gold standard is to set them up with subsequent employment.
That would be nice, many are less fortunate, you could point to the camps in Lesbos, or the general treatment of migrants at the south-eastern EU border where they do illegal pushbacks into Serbia instead of taking care of people seeking refuge. You could point to the endless death in the Mediterranean that is just not being televised anymore.
Europe is an inhumane monster, anybody who says otherwise can fight me.
My apologies. I’m speaking mostly from a New Zealand perspective.
Over here, we’re fortunate enough to have Australia take the bulk of the refugees and put them in offshore concentration camps for us, so we don’t get our hands dirty.
But the few refugees we do take, we put through basic courses for a month or two in a camp before integrating into the wider community.
Sorry I didn’t mean to attack you.
In all fairness, if you make it to ie Germany and you can proof that you come from a country Germany can’t wiggle out of accepting like Syria, you get basically the treatment you mentioned, but if you only flee from poverty in ie Serbia(not part of EU) they send you the fuck back no matter if you’ll end up on the street.
I just wanted to point out what hypocrites we are in Europe. But it seems that, at least your neighbors, are not much different than us.
Uyghurs aren't refugees though. Even if the response is better than the US, it's with taking a critical look at practices that may result in cultural assimilation, a rise in racism against a minority group, and leave a lot of room for individual cases of abuse.
Loving the recycling of arguments used by famous humanitarian projects like Myanmar and India's camps
Yeah, except this time they're being used and applied correctly instead of used disingenuously by racist twats. Did you even read the fucking post?
It's not disingenuous because there is significant evidence that the reasons are sincere, as outlined in the original comment. What's your response to the terrorism problem in the region?
That authoritarian governments have used terrorism as a catch-all to pursue their twisted ends before and continue to do so in <not China> even today? Secessionists and militants are consistently branded as brainwashed or outright recruited terrorists by administrations, their agents, and their sympathizers when their power is challenged.
Fine, let's concede that the stated motives are real and legitimate. Is everyone just fine with re-education and cultural assimilation? You deserve freedom only as long as you toe the party/state line? And this is acceptable to people because their goals apparently align? Forgive me for I have libposted but that doesn't sit well with me. Today it's ISIS, who's to say what reason it is tomorrow? I understand these are concrete problems that need to be dealt with one way or the other but the idea of a state having the power to do that is not something I can support, maybe even critically.
My final question is that in a country with a press situation as warped as China, even if it is for national security reasons, how does one establish credibility of a source, external or internal? Because I'm not convinced even by the media in supposedly more "free" and "democratic" countries.
I don't know, even reading my comment now feels like I'm approaching this in bad faith but I don't know what it will take to realign my value system to such an extent that any of this is acceptable. You can ask me to post hog or reply with pigpoopballs, I guess. I'll go through the other comments here on my own time too.
I kind of feel like that's a slippery slope because it can be flipped on you just as easily, the only difference being who is in power. But I understand where you're coming from.
Is everyone just fine with re-education and cultural assimilation? You deserve freedom only as long as you toe the party/state line? And this is acceptable to people because their goals apparently align? Forgive me for I have libposted but that doesn’t sit well with me. Today it’s ISIS, who’s to say what reason it is tomorrow?
I can’t tell you who it will be tomorrow, but yesterday it was Pu Yi, the last emperor of China. Rather than executing him and all his relatives, like the Bolsheviks did to the Romanovs, the CPC reformed him and had him live as a gardener.
but the idea of a state having the power to do that is not something I can support, maybe even critically.
The 2009 Urumqi riots were triggered when news of a few Uyghurs working outside of Xinjiang being murdered by a mob of Han over a misunderstanding made its way back.
The Uyghur populace killed hundreds of Han on the streets, encouraged and coordinated in part by an unfiltered Facebook.
The Han populace prepares to mobilise and fight back, but was stopped by the police.
I’m telling you this to suggest that the inclinations of the masses might not be the best mechanisms to rely on for resolving ethnic tensions and right wing radicalisation.
My final question is that in a country with a press situation as warped as China, even if it is for national security reasons, how does one establish credibility of a source, external or internal? Because I’m not convinced even by the media in supposedly more “free” and “democratic” countries.
Chinese media tends to have a different tone to western media. I don’t think it’s inherently less trustworthy, but it’s different. That’s why, in the above post, I keep references to Chinese media to a minimum, and instead rely on western secondary sources, and leaked Chinese primary sources used by western media. It’s not perfect, but it’s about as good as I can get.
I really appreciate your insight on this. You've given me a lot to think about.
Thanks for your reply. Along with a lot of other responses on this post it has given me a lot to look up and think critically about.
A good post until
Could China’s approach be done better? Almost certainly.
Mmmnah. The West version of deradicalization is their Drone Programme.
Do you know how we can tell that you didn't read the entire post?
I read the post. "Could China's approach be done better? Almost certainly" Says who and per what standards. China's defused the Xinjiang situation already.
Also Obama funded this lol, so progressive! https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-12-05/Fighting-terrorism-in-Xinjiang-MaNLLDtnfq/index.html
It could be done better with more resources. My biggest issue with what I’ve heard of it so far is how crude the metrics for determining vulnerability are, and how one-size-fits-all the programme seems to be.
Now I understand that having a team of psychologically trained Imam to interview every detainee might not be feasible, given resource constraints. But that sort of assessment would be ideal.
Regarding the programme itself, it teaches basic mandarin, civics, and possibly some specific vocational skills. That’s great, but it’s also crude. I’ve heard some relatives of detainees express concern that their relatives weren’t in need of vocational skills, or mandarin. This suggests that the programme isn’t suitable for all people at all levels.
Personally, I’d like to see a family and community driven approach to deradicalisation, rather than a mass-produced one. Again, I get that with limited resources that may not have been feasible.
This is why I called it ‘the most humane response to extremism we’ve seen so far’. I won’t condemn them for the approach taken, but I’m also not so pessimistic as to think that there’s no way to do better.
It could be done better with more resources.
Oh so you think its underfunded?
That’s great, but it’s also crude.
So you don't like it because its not enough doctrine? People are crying as it is.
I get that with limited resources that may not have been feasible.
So if you understand why its not feasible why do you still complain.
also not so pessimistic as to think that there’s no way to do better.
Uh, you didn't actually propose anything "family and community driven approach rather than a mass produced one" means you want to leave it to individual families and not the state?
Disclaimer: I did not compile this list of sources/arguments. This was compiled by low_poly_space_shiba, who has since left this server.
the BBC made a documentary on the “concentration camps” that makes them seem like neat schools
https://medium.com/@sunfeiyang/e284934a7aab
UN guy visited
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-rights-un/china-says-reached-broad-consensus-with-u-n-after-xinjiang-visit-idUSKCN1TH00T
pakistan guy visited
https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/422970-pakistani-diplomat-narrates-visit-to-chinas-xinjiang
world bank investigated
https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china
China invited EU and they said no
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-xinjiang-exclusive-idUSKCN1R10QQ
just like they said no to check in Venezuela
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-un-idUSKCN1GO2J0
American and British imperial pigs explain every aspect of the modern anti-China approach, both goals and methods:
Churchill, 1902: What? (https://winstonchurchill.org/publications/finest-hour/finest-hour-159/wsc-a-midnight-interview-1902/)
Kennan, 1948: Why? (https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1948v01p2/d4)
Brzezinski, 1998: How? (https://dgibbs.faculty.arizona.edu/brzezinski_interview)
https://imgur.com/gallery/iclU9H4<-relevant quotes
in tweet form
https://twitter.com/RodericDay/status/1285603816172380160
One of the main voices claiming atrocities are happening in Xinjiang is Rushan Abbas.
https://medium.com/@RobertArlan/a-reddit-ama-claiming-to-be-a-uiyghur-quickly-exposes-a-cia-asset-slandering-china-1d667c098b77
She did a Reddit AMA and people found out she’s a complete State Department asset. She literally worked at Guantanamo Bay as a translator
https://imgur.com/gallery/Xo7cYyq<-relevant stuff
Then there’s the other guy, Adrian Zenz:
Adrian Zenz is the expert on Xinjiang Genocide.
He
works for Victims of Communism, the organization that added worldwide COVID tallies
he is a Rapturist, he thinks he was sent from God to fight the anti-christ embodied in China
he has already been caught lying
https://mobile.twitter.com/rgoodlaw/status/1259300068227760128
basically keep an eye out for the name “Adrian Zenz” he’s behind almost EVERY SINGLE uighur genocide story in the NYT/WaPo/Guardian
there’s also a massive “grassroots” campaign on social media
https://twitter.com/j_bigboote/status/1182726991675625472?s=08
this guy basically went and collected samples you can peruse them yourself
another thing worth looking at is just “atrocity propaganda”, that is, how the USA just says horrendous things about their enemies, smearing them with impunity and destroying their public standing before moving into sanctions, then invasion
the classic case is Nayirah Testimony
https://imgur.com/gallery/jYTvY1T<-relevant stuff
(wiki Nayirah Testimony)
other examples
https://imgur.com/gallery/BHb8LOV<-relevant stuff
here’s an interview with a CIA agent talking about how the whole goal is to bribe and cajole journalists into creating an image that communists eat babies
I don’t know how to post video, but if you tell me how I can
“We didn’t know of one single atrocity committed by the Cubans. It was pure raw false propaganda to create an illusion of communists eating babies for breakfast.”
For a more in depth view, check out this doc (also not compiled by me)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s_w/edit#
I found this later on.
Not about China specifically, but this article from the Guardian(sorry for the lib source) talks about DPRK defectors lying about DPRK
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/why-do-north-korean-defector-testimonies-so-often-fall-apart
“Cash payments in return for interviews with North Korean refugees have been standard practice in the field for years…This practice also drives the demand for “saleable stories”: the more exclusive, shocking or emotional, the higher the fee.”
“But many refugees say they feel pressured for defector stories. Ahn Myung-chol, a former prison guard at Camp 22, said people liked shocking stories and these so-called “defector- activists” were merely responding to this desire. Chong Kwang-il, a former prisoner at Camp 15, said the fame brought by media exposure trapped them, forcing them to reproduce a certain narrative.”
I’m not saying we should dismiss people’s stories out of hand, but there is a large issue with people creating more shocking stories. due to both the profit incentive, and also for propaganda value
tldr; There's lots of terrorism in the region, much of which is likely supported by the US, in an effort to weaken China/manufacture consent against them. Rather than sending in troops, like the USSR did in Afghanistan, or the US did in the entire middle east, China is trying to de-radicalise them. The worst I can honestly say about them is that there's probably some corruption and institutional racism in them, as in all prisons, and they remind me a bit much of residential schools in Canada for my liking. Still definitely a more humane choice than bombing the place to the ground though.
The worst I can honestly say about them is that there’s probably some corruption and institutional racism in them, as in all prisons
I think it is pretty fucked up thing to downplay this. It's absurd to think just because China has many programs trying to help the Uighurs, and Uighur party members that nothing bad is happening. Australia, America, Canada, etc all have welfare programs, investigation bodies for Indigenous deaths, Australia has several Indigenous members of parliament, etc. It doesn't mean Indigenous genocide isn't happening in the countries. That being said, Adrian Zenz is a psyop
Yeah, there's plenty to criticise China on in its treatment of minorities, and on specific policies in countering the terrorist groups in Xingang. There's also certainly a nasty undercurrent of Han nationalism in places that's resulted from a number of well intentioned policies of the CCP to boost the population's investment in the Socialist project. And we all love our Deng struggle sessions don't we folks?
But "Concentration Camps" is a bit rich when Australia is leaving asylum seekers to rot and die in New Guinea, and the US is putting children in cages in 50 degree sunlight and picking people off the streets in unmarked vans.
we are mostly on the same page here, but you don't need to resort to whataboutism in comparing ethnic groups being forced into camps. Forced re-education camps is not something I support a government doing, even if I agree with the educational content.
yeh i generally dont really care about internal politics in countries that I don't live in. i'm just not too keen on apologia of injustices, which tends to happen in online spaces like this. in my political life i am resisting injustices from the australian government and capitalism, you're not really gonna catch me at an anti China march in Australia - that is a huge waste of time lol.
I love that leftist infighting can get so heated and vitriolic while in the end we all kinda just agree but for different reasons.
what happened to low poly space shiba? i remember talking to him, he seemed nice
They left the discord because of drama. I haven't seen him here yet. but he said he'd probably join
Any thread on the Uighurs isn't complete until you talk about how anti-Communist evangelical German goober Adrian Zenz and how 95% of what you see about the situation comes from his dumbass.
You all can say what you will about the Uighur situation, but this image is pretty damning: https://m.imgur.com/gallery/jArJz56
if you link directly to the image it works better, we don't have RES anymore
Honestly just feeling attacked right now. Just trying to spread the truth.
There were some education centres for re-educating a few thousand people deemed to be at high risk of subscribing to islamic extremist tendencies.
There are currently none left, the last closed in December more than half a year ago. All noise on the topic since is regurgitation of old content.
This thread extensively debunks every Uighur allegation out there.
That's it. Those are the facts.
Xinjiang is also very nice to visit and has many famous mosques, but I don't know how many people speak English there.
There are currently none left, the last closed in December more than half a year ago. All noise on the topic since is regurgitation of old content.
this. it's fucking wild we're having to debate about something that isn't around anymore.
That's not what they're doing. They're specifically targeting radicalized individuals for reeducation, and offering free Mandarin lessons and vocational skills. They are addressing the root material cause of unrest by providing them with the skills they will need for the coming boom in the area from the Belt and Road Project. They don't want the Uyghurs to be left behind economically and end up more radicalized. The idea that they're having their language erased is ridiculous. Plenty of cultures are largely bilingual.
There are actually a lot of videos of western leftists going to Xinjiang and walking around. It's a beautiful place and if the concentration/re-educcation camps were anywhere near the scale that's being reported those places wouldn't look the way they do.
The BBC even has a video where they went in one and it just looks like a pretty standard community college with mid quality dorm housing attached. They try and say the dorms are terrible, but I paid $16,000/year to live in dorms half the size with no A/C and one shower for 8 people so...?
Most of the signage is bi lingual and there's plenty of people walking around with hijabs (just no face covering). There are a couple videos of CCP loudspeakers being used for call to prayer as well. Which seems like a weird choice for a government that's doing ethnic cleansing.
hey try not to nuke the Lemmy any time soon because bookmarking this one page is way easier than bookmarking all the shit you guys linked
This is a good read with many different sources
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1287411708374454273.html
Fun stuff, did not know that the ACLU received $20M from Koch Bros and supported Citizen United.
Also, "Regime Change Left" is a good way to put purported leftists (looking at you Chomsky) supporting regime change under the guise of "self-determination" but involving US intervention.
I can vouch for that first bit about the BBC deliberately mistranslating. I noticed that when the documentary came out, and it's the reason I became suspicious about this narrative originally as well
I reccomend dw news as a news source, it's German tax payer funded, and they only report on direct testimony from camp detainees and documents leaked to them. They've shown strong evidence of mass arbitrary detention. There's also Darren bylar, an anthropologist who focuses on the surveilence states effects on uyghur Islam.
https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/hi8m92/in_response_to_the_new_antichina_news_on/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
I'm not sure if this helps but it seems that the reduction in birth rates from the census data is inline country-wide trend of decreasing birthrates across China and therefore isn't sufficient evidence for anything.
I understand your concern and agree that it's hard to say. I think the post argues not just a reduction to the national average but also a decrease in national average (12.43 > 10.69) **alongside ** his drop. Although I agree this is a sharper drop, it should be considered that as numbers become lower there will be diminishing returns.
My main point stands that conclusions cannot be drawn on very limited & targeted data sets. For example the birthrate decrease also correlates with a specific poverty alleviation plan for 2016-2020 with an investment of over 100 billion yuan for the first time in 2016 (including 66.7 billion yuan from the central government, an increase of 43.4% year on year and 49.3 billion yuan from local governments, a year-on-year rise of 56.1%) with the goal of eradicating all poverty by 2020. I would hope that the birthrate reduction is because of targeted & ramped up poverty alleviation efforts since it seems like Hotan and Kashgar are poorer areas and poverty is typically associated with higher than average birthrates (of which these areas seem to significantly have). **However it would also be fallacious of me to make that assertion as I am just picking numbers and dates that align to produce a different narrative. **
Sources: https://www.un.org/development/desa/dspd/wp-content/uploads/sites/22/2018/05/15.pdf, https://isdp.eu/publication/chinas-anti-poverty-efforts-problems-and-progress/
Regardless, I feel reallly uneasy about the increased tensions with China and wish there was less shoddy reporting.
This could be just because of a mix of not so bad to very terrible reasons but I don’t have a clear picture on this.
Note that birthrates can decline for legitimately good reasons, too. Birthrates have declined in many places as material conditions have improved, and declining birthrates are also tied to increased economic financial and political autonomy for women.
Which certainly could be bad, but it would also be consistent with something like (a) free birth control and (b) ensuring that women can't be forced into marriage. Neither of those are particularly radical programs, but they'd bring birthrates down about as soon as they were implemented.
Also birthrates decline with the rise womans rights, education, living conditions and the decline of religious zealously.
To supplement what others have already said, we must be vigilant to recognize that empire is deeply invested in creating a new cold war against China. The USA is funding any angle they can to attack China as well as stoking any stories that stick regarding China.
Everything written here about how 90% of American "facts" concerning Uighurs in Xinjiang are derived from the inductive reasoning of a Christian evangelical in non-peer reviewed articles is completely true.
That said, I don't see anything written here about the long history of the region which is now Xinjiang as a state or territory. The fact that nothing anyone has posted here discusses that long history demonstrates an inadequecy of analysis of historical conditions. It leads people to say things like, "Uh, a CIA did it" and move on as if everything is now resolved.
I recently listened to an episode of the Historic.ly podcast with Carl Zha, who I think is quite well informed on Chinese history but interprets that history in ways very different than me. In about five minutes he said 1) Xinjiang has always been part of China -- 5000 years of Chinese history! 2) Xinjiang became part of China in the Qing dynasty -- ~350 years of Chinese history! 3) Xinjiang has had ethnic separatist movements and has declared itself an independent state separate from Chinese rule numerous times in those last 350 years (as recently as the mid-20th century with Soviet backing). To summarize, Xinjiang has always been part of China, so long as "China" only begins with the Qing, and except for all of those times when it wasn't.
To not see any contradiction in these statements is to not be able to see the region and ethnic conflicts as a whole in mainland China through any other lens but Chinese state orthodoxy. To not question why Xinjiang today is part of China while also not questioning why Mongolia today isn't part of China is to just be caught in the currents of US and Chinese state propaganda with no critical awareness or historical analysis.
