If, Buddha-willing, we get another shot at this shit and get the chance to try and enact a dictatorship of the proletariat, what do comrades here think we should actually do regarding prison systems, e.g. for political enemies? What do we think of reeducation camps? How should they be organised?
A coordinated campaign of labor and education is what I have in mind. People doing physical labor alongside others, eating good, healthy food, and seeing the tangible results of their labor. Like building trolley lines and such. Then, night school to unlearn the garbage our trash education system and shit media have fed us.
Night school? Heck even a 4x2 schedule could be something. Guess it just depends on how intense the education is.
deported to straight to the Alaskan Arctic, forced to build climate mitigation defenses :gulag:
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2017/05/could-we-run-modern-society-on-human-power-alone.html
California has some of the biggest issues and population of ghouls in need of reeducation, and could use the labor building water, fertilizer, and soil-saving earthworks, and redevelopment of urban/suburban areas.
A few seasons of directly supporting and rebuilding their local community and reaping the benefits would do a lot to restore their soul.
Nicer (compared to gulag) enclave inside to let them do whatever, but their trade is restricted to something materially needed to society outside. If hundred thousands opinion makers can’t grow food, then they’ll have to provide something useful :shrug-outta-hecks: if they find another 100k dupes to serve them - let them, problem will solve itself in a generation.
With billionaires specifically - 24/7 stream of them on the survivor island or whatever that’s called
I'm sorry but billionaires and to an extent the upper levels of multi millionaires need to be shot. There is no rehabilitating that group. I can only hear so many stories of person x gambling my literal yearly salary on a single fucking football game before I'm fully on board with culling the lot of them
That seems too kind :edgeworth-shrug:
But also question is kinda bad, fantasies even violent ones don’t bring this closer. my answer can bring common camaraderie over image of bosses trying to figure out how to grow corn, while violent ones repel people usually
fantasies even violent ones don’t bring this closer.
look i just want to make jane fonda proud.
Killing them only validates the idea that they have any actual power, that their innate superiority makes them a threat even without money or connections or the control of physical instruments of labor
Their power is illusory, based on economic augury and arcane market ritualism, it is the power of a priest-caste. Killing the God (capitalist mode of production+ideological superstructure) makes the priests laymen like the rest of us. Killing the priest just makes him into a martyr.
I typed those up by hand from the book since I couldn't find it online. I'll either see if I uploaded pictures of them already or do exactly that if I didn't and send you a link to them tomorrow when I wake up. Make sure to reply to this comment so I'll have an extra reminder to do it.
This should work, I retook pictures of the chapter. Page numbers are at the bottom, so if the links disorganized them you can figure out the order at your perusal.
https://ibb.co/0CmDpPK https://ibb.co/NSb5CZs https://ibb.co/phywzt9 https://ibb.co/CKc4snS https://ibb.co/D7V3J5Y https://ibb.co/fpTjDSv https://ibb.co/ZV710W3 https://ibb.co/TtP6msb https://ibb.co/ZSdsGX5
Good that you posted this as the USSR and more generally the penal systems of past socialist projects are definitely something we should be studying comparatively and critically to get a sense of what works and what doens't. Obviously that can only help us, not give us a panacea because our conditions are very different. That being said I don't really understand comrades who seem intent of justifying every aspect of the soviet penal system, many of which were pretty unjustifiable in all honesty (like the use pf psychiatry to pathologize alot of criminals) but tell you alot about the conditions of the USSR's emergence, the violence behind its survival and the effect this had on the state, party and bureacracy, as well as people more broadly.
More cyberpunk this time around, with VR headsets and the Ludovico technique.
Ethical prisons are impossible and imprisonment should be used only for the prevention of imminent articulable harm. If somebody makes a credible threat that they're going to bomb or shoot up a place, sure, lock them up. That's basically the only kind of circumstance where it would ever be acceptable.
I guess it depends on what you mean by ethical. Almost every single conceivable case of imprisonment seems depraved, especially under capitalism. But if by ethical we mean that which leaves the vast majority of the working people better of, in terms of material consequences and conditions relevant to their quality of life, it seems that there are definitely arguments for imprisoning alot of fascists (or, to use the example of another extreme, really depraved serial murderers), as the imminent articulable harm seems sufficient reason to say it's political advisable, therefore ethical, to keep them away from other people and possible means of doing harm.
Honestly one fear - even though it's inevitably a bit detached given that we're so far from actual power - is that we're being really naive about the actual kind of violence that would be necessary to ensure that we don't ourselves get undermined and crushed by counter-revolutionary reaction. Like what are all those ex-militarized fash cops gonna do? Grill? I doubt it.
Jeff Bezos specifically would be forced to carry boxes full of funko pops around a warehouse all day, day-in day-out with Amazon style slave driving. The boxes never leave the warehouse he's just forever moving crap from shelf to shelf with no rest 'till he drops. And a manager yelling at him if he even slows down slightly.
:lord-bezos-amused:
(No Sisyphus emote?)
This is an apalling thing to contemplate and you should all take a long hard look in a mirror. That said obviously we pick a small cold island chain for all the straight people to go fucking die on like pigs for all I care, no outside help no contact immediate sinking any escape craft I'll do the sinking
I was gonna say we go with somewhere even shittier and more unlivable than there but I don't believe anywhere is
fence off the City of London, take bets on how long it takes for them to claw some usable soil from the glass and concrete
I think after a couple of months of living off cocaine eels, they might just turn to cannibalism instead. After all, the City of London doesn't produce anything it just juggles money between investment firms so they might just opt to do the same but for nutrition.
Yh I think alot of the convo and the ease with which we joke about it does reflect the fact that many westerners (most people on this site), if they're working class, have experienced terrible exploitation, alienation, depression, and anxiety, and well as a host of other mental health issues due to capitalism, and possibly also experienced some more direct violence at the hands of the state, but haven't lived in countries or communities that have actually gone through the unimaginable traumas of actually wielding violence this appalling, especially if your enemy wants to annihilate or genocide you. Unfortunately the reality of the enemy, and their history, suggests that victory isn't really possible otherwise.
Nah yeah for sure I was just saying that for the sake of the one-two joke, I'm down really
Ok, so it's after the Revolution, things are relatively stable, there are Truth and Reconciliation committees in full swing, and we don't need to shoot people due to simple expedience anymore.
But we will have a lot of people, of all classes, who are actively hostile to the system. Some of these will be political activists, some violent terrorists, some people with former power.
People who are doing none of these things beyond quiet bitching with friends over dinner who are against us do not need to be gulag'd. Our secret police keeping tabs and ongoing political education will work, though we'll need a full century to root out the most systemic and organised brainworms.
A Stasi organisation doesn't need to oppress openly or do the weird shuffling peoples wardrobe shit, it just needs to watch, and make very clear that there is a line of dissent that cannot be crossed. It's much easier if dissent is displayed openly but quietly rather than driven completely underground.
As for the others
Re-education camps need not be places of forced labour or tired political brainwashing or punishment. These are simply places where we have removed those who cannot participate in the new society. As such, they will take several forms, from places trying to reform and re-intergrate pre-revolution violent offenders to places to see if Jeff Bezos can receive a soul transplant. These places should be remote enough that only minimal guard work is needed.
As the society becomes more stable, more of these people can be re-introduced based on their long term threat level and their degree of assessed reform. Some of course, may never be released.
As for the specifics, they vary from camp to camp. I note that a lot of people here support forced labour, and I think that's a bad thing, outside of having the prisoners collectively involve themselves in the operation and maintenance of the institution. A workers council, supervised by a committee of trained party officials rather than the guards should administer this. Party officials should engage in the same labour the prisoners do to build solidarity, while remaining at a professional distance
That said, labour should be encouraged. External projects run under their own Soviets should be introduced, and the prisoners invited to join. Work available should closely match the skill set of the prisoner base, if, as in the case of billionaires, there is no skill set, open training courses should be offered based on a survey of topics that are socially useful and which the prisoners are interested in. In addition, Workers should be able to suggest their own labour projects, subject to approval. These Soviets should be encouraged to co-operate, and even compete where useful, in order for them to provide a social alternative to gang formation. They should be gently dissuaded from adopting charismatic leaders rather than more collective organisation, though of course some members will be more active than others.
Of course, all conversation will be monitored, but wherever possible non-disruptive dissent should not be punished as not to drive it underground and allow us to gauge the pace of reform.
Education and propaganda classes will be offered, of course, as will a fully stocked library. News bulletins of the outside world should come in regularly, with a positive but critical tone, and discussion encouraged. Cadre should be available to monitor and answer questions, but should not critique thought, letting the prisoners do so. Group and individual therapy sessions with party psychologists and, sometimes, cadre should be the only compulsory sessions, and these should only touch on politics if the prisoners broach it first.
Disruption and violence will be dealt with by progressive removal of places to cause it, until guarded Psych sessions and theory classes are the only options on their social calendar. Prisoners will get their own room which they can leave freely to a small common area, but with violent prisoners a guard may need to be stationed there. This will also reduce the likelihood of a mass revolt since the prisoners associate in smaller units. Where possible, critique of prisoner disruption should come from the prisoners themselves, organically during group sessions. It might be necessary to "salt" the prisoner population with party members to kickstart the process.
None of this will reform everybody, and for some extra measures will need to be taken, but I think it's a decent start.
Alot of great suggestions and thoughts here.
It seems like the 'things are relatively stable' does a decent amount of heavy-lifting here though. What do we expect the ex-cops, members of the military, and the large numbers of reactionary, armed boug and petty boug to do?
Agree on the need for a century to achieve it. It really is the construction of a new type of society and therefore a new type of human being. Reminds me of alot of Che's ideas. Also unfortunately a particularly asshole moment from Trotsky when he was in cadiz and saw two men in a street-fight, and his reflection was 'it will take a lot of time and effort to create the new socialist man' lmao.
It does do a lot of the heavy lifting. Because "Successful Revolution" is very different to "Stable Socialist Construction" in needs. And if we don't want to get ourselves killed or couped, or fuck up and start piling up the skulls; we need to recognise that.
In any revolutionary situation where we have a chance we'll have at least a third of the military and probably a third of the PBs, since as a class they're generally opportunistic. Yeah, there'll be a bloody revolution, a sharp, hopefully short Terror, and if we're very very lucky a simmering insurrection rather than an all out Civil War. Lots of good people and lots of ordinary people who didn't want any of it will die before and after. too many people up against the wall, too many people in nasty temporary prisons where we figure out what the hell to do with them and if they are a threat.
But thems the breaks.
Yh they are different. The latter presupposes the former though, and I guess the former can entail the latter depending on what we mean by 'successful'. One potential issue and contradiction we might face is whether or not it is even feasible to have a revolution or a modicum of stabilization under a socialist democratic dictorship without a pretty extreme level of violence and coercion, in which case we need the military. In that event I'm afraid of repeating alot of the mistakes of the stalinist period.
I'm suppose the petit boug proportion relies on what proportion are closer to middle-class working class as opposed to genuine petty petty boug, i.e. whose interests they take themselves align more with, and how many of the later go through genuine radicalization and heroic class betrayal (not a huge number). The military proportion is an question I really have no idea how to answer or judge your proportion you answer with. I'm not familiar enough with the sociology or material circumstances of military members as group.
Yes, I agree, the Soviets were heavy handed due to the Civil War and later due to political infighting and Nazi infiltration. Gulags are bad and these are also bad.
Which is why I stated these post-revolutionary institutions are only for those who are direct dangers, not just people grumbling idly online. And also that there be no retribution, coercion, or forced indoctrination in them, and free movement and labour choice within them. We're talking about the surviving billionaires, police, "Dark Enlightenment" intellectuals, and proud boys here.
For the vast majority of ordinary people in society material experience, subtle media hegemony with controlled dissent, and a good deal of spying will be enough. The process of Social Engineering I'm afraid will take decades, and a lot of experiments and failures but that's beyond the scope of the question, which is what do we do with those who can't live in the early days of a better nation.
