I know I’ve expressed dislike for the guy in the past, but seriously? I thought for even something like this, he would at least have a good take on it.
Would have been nice if he cited some sources for the alleged mass murders and disappearances.
Aa for the election I think it is true that it has not been transparent enough to pass the sniff test. But I don't really care about that. When the west cries about electoral integrity it rings very hollow. Because of the sanctions and the material support for Venezuela's far right from America, the election is already not free and fair. Freedom and democracy lovers should ask their government to remove their boot from Venezuela's neck.
Because he's Australian living in a more reactionary state in Latin America, it's not surprising he disparages most AES, even if Venezuela isn't even run by a ML party. In fact Maduro's real policies is more akin to Bad Empanada than he thinks. Brainworms are brainworms, I guess.
His Twitter trolling is funny and he's right about a lot of things but he's also kind of a melt between his views on China/AES and talking about how the left should organise into armed revolutionary cadres while doing 2 hour livestreams about Keffals drama and shit
I always kinda got the impression he’s a contrarian that thrives on drama. Sort of like a breadtube version of keemstar.
pretty standard incoherent internet maoist, can be pretty cool and then suddenly veers off into purely contrarian anti-aes nonsense that only serves imperialism
I've definitely had issues with some of his previous AES takes but is venezuela really AES? seems like a stretch but I don't know enough to say
Nominally socialist under Chavisimo but functionally it’s a Latin American attempt to do the Nordic model.
Capitalists own the majority of Venezuelan production, they just don't have any real influence on the military or the street organizations that keep poor people fed and get them to vote every election.
Is he Maoist now? He always came across as more of a DSA liberal type to me.
Yeah, this bothers me
Honestly it doesn't quite matter to me if the election victory is 'legitimate'. My opposition to US-backed coups (both dems like Chris Murphy and repubs like John Bolton admit in public that they tried & failed to coup Venezuela) is not contingent on its target being socialist, progressive or democratic
BadEmpanada can defend himself from critique by claiming he's just being factual, but even the fucking Majority Report had more principle in stating they didn't know for certain because they weren't experts on Venezuela, and more importantly putting front and center their opposition to US regime change
When you have Kamala Harris supporters arguing a more principled anti-imperialist position than you, you know you've fucked up
I think his point is supposed to be "don't argue Maduro won the election if you don't actually believe or even care about the genuine-ness of the results". But he's purposefully inflammatory about it.
BadEmpanada is the kind of white guy that thinks he understands the entirety of Latin America because he moved to Argentina.
Honestly, please dunk on me, because I saw this video and now I don't know what to think about the Venezuelan election issue. Two days ago I remarked that my only acquaintance in Venezuela had come out in support for the election fraud narrative — and my kneejerk assumption was that this person, being a jus soli US overseas citizen who speaks English as a second language to an advanced level, was probably just peddling pro-imperialist nonsense. And I felt kind of bad about saying this, because even though it was probably true, it also felt like I was saying of someone behind his back that I know better than him about issues that directly affect him. Even in the times when this is plainly true, it is never comfortable to assert this.
But now, Hell, man, I don't know shit about Venezuela, really, right? So could I have been wrong to assume that the only Venezuelan I know was blinded by his own biases? And I don't like treating YouTubers as trustworthy sources, because God knows they aren't, and God knows that people like Bad Empanada have their own biases too — but this video did shake my confidence in the apparent consensus about the Venezuelan election. Because when I just saw ten headlines about election fraud and assumed "Alright, that sounds like it's probably true", then what's to say that the whole image of consensus about the Venezuelan election issue doesn't come from other people doing the exact same thing? But maybe that thought is just parasocial brainworms from this guy calling me a child who needs a hobby, though, that that type of shaming would strike a chord with me who often worries about not being active enough in real-world organizing.
So what really is the "solid dick" about Venezuela right now? Where do the communists of Venezuela really stand on the election issue? Where would you recommend I look to get a better idea of the situation, such that I can feel like I've done my due investigation into the issue? Probably all the articles and videos already shared in the past few days, for starters.
Long story short, there is no solid dick. Nobody knows what is going on in the Venezuelan elections outside of maybe the judicial branch, and even they are taking their time on confirmation.
That being said, it doesn't matter if you think there is fraud or not, we are literally talking about media coming from a country (the U.S.) that tried to do a coup less than 5 years ago and then maintained a government in exile. Observably and historically! As such you cannot take anything the mainstream media, or any of their downstream puppets who get most of their information from those sources, seriously.
Not that it matters. Our opinions in the U.S. have no actual bearing on the matter, in fact, they are equal to your buddy who is Venezuelan, because if intervention is called for, correctly or incorrectly, it's not their ass that will be in the meat grinder. Even if they have family there, their actual means of production stakes are essentially the same as yours.
Our opinions in the U.S. [...]
[wakes up]
[finds out own country has been annexed by the US]
My apologies, I shouldn't have assumed you were from the U.S.
Ah geez, you aren't even on the U.S. news cycle and you are seeing the insane propaganda levels. Pretty typical of the bourgeoisie media cycles though.
Ah shit, I misread it. It was an acquaintance 'in Venezuela'. Poor bastard. Look, given that there is a sizable percentage of the U.S. electorate that thinks our elections were stolen, it doesn't surprise me if there are many people in Venezuela who think the election was stolen. They're in a tough spot and I hope things work out for them and if Maduro does get kicked out, they don't get sold down the river of American promises.
My apologies, I shouldn't have assumed you were from the U.S.
Well, I can't blame you, even in person people keep assuming I'm from the US!
In person getting treated like a Usonian is a sore point as much as it's something I've learned to have a sense of humor about, but on the Internet it's clear that there is a wider problem of treating Seppos as the default nationality. I think that unlearning this behavior or attitude, and combating Americocentrism in general, is a clear point of improvement for Hexbear's site culture, that this would entice more users of other nationalities to join and allow for a broader range of perspectives. So it's important to call out Americocentrism when it appears, but maybe less as something to apologize for and more as something to improve on.
It was an acquaintance 'in Venezuela'.
I did also say "US overseas citizen" so maybe you're just tired.
I misread it.
There is a really obvious joke to be made here, but I am not going to make it...
I hope things work out for them
I hope so too, but I'm certainly managing my expectations.
I will learn and improve upon it for sure!
I am actually really tired, I got off of the three day night shift and am switching to day over for my second part-time job tomorrow. I still need to be more careful about reading before I go off though. Speaking of which it is nearly time for me to get some sleep. Good night and good luck!
♫ Баю-бай, должны все люди ночью спать. ♫
♫ Баю-баю, завтра будет день опять. ♫
♫ За день мы устали очень, ♫
♫ Скажем всем: «Спокойной ночи!» ♫
♫ Глазки закрывай, ♫
♫ Баю-бай. ♫
I'd be more critical of the elections if leftist activists and reporters were reporting that there was something off going on, but that isn't the case at all. People like Alan MacLeod, Eugene Puryear and Rania Khalek among others have been reporting the contrary.
[...] Alan MacLeod, Eugene Puryear and Rania Khalek among others [...]
Ah great, three names in a row that I don't recognize! Now I have to determine whether my unfamiliarity with these apparently notable journalists is because I'm a bad leftist, or if it's actually a good thing that most of the left-wing journalism I read is neither in English nor from the USA.
Edit: It should be noted that my opinion doesn't matter so this is just me whinging at this point.
Original: In many cases, it is better to get news from outside the U.S. I don't think questioning Maduro's electoral legitimacy 'makes you a bad leftist' even if others in the forum might think so. Maduro kinda sucks, and has made plenty of unforced errors. That said, I don't see things 'getting better' for poor Venezuelans under right-wing rule. Maybe things will get better for the 'middle class' or for left-wing organizing outside of PSUV (whose acronym I can never remember), but idk, I really really doubt it.
My knee jerk is always to run opposite of U.S. media narratives until compelling outside evidence is presented. It's not a perfect response, in fact it is pretty shit and reactionary but it's the best I've come up with.
I mean no need to be rude about it. I wasn’t implying anything, just throwing out some names of comrades who do great work and could be good resources for people.
I am sorry that that came across as rude, or that it seemed like I thought you were trying to imply anything. I am not always very good at reading nor conveying the intended tone.
Hey, that’s alright. It can be hard to read tone via text, so it’s no big deal. It wasn’t my intent to come off as condescending or aggressive either. My bad.
Yeah, I also got shaken a little bit ngl. I really don't know shit and can't say much about the reality on the ground in the country, and every friend I have in the liberal human rights/charity sphere is always talking about the humanitarian crisis etc. etc. I want to chalk it up to neolib propaganda exaggerating the effects of US enforced sanctions, but there probably are mistakes coming from the current Chavista leadership if the crisis has deepened as profoundly as I'm constantly being told.
One thing I picked up on was the Carter Center not being given access to verify the results this time around but that they had every time before. I'm trying to get a look at some of their old reports to see what they had said about the past, but any comrades have an idea of why this relationship would have been broken? I assume it's lib institution (it's named after Carter....), but a break in such a historical relationship is worthy of note to me.
I mean, having the U.S. quite literally attempting to stag a coup and then maintain a government in exile for 4 years would put a damper on me giving any information to any U.S. affiliated institution, non-profit or otherwise. Edit: There is nothing preventing them from lying about the results. Other U.S. organizations have done it before.
That said, bourgeoisie democracy is a complete farce anyways, I get why BE is being a whiny little child though, it's no fun when the sucdems ban the ML party, but idk why the ML people assumed Maduro would be on their side. Their party runs the street orgs and military, they aren't just going to give them up to some nerds who read some books. Especially if their response to getting banned is literally interventionist theory from the U.S.
Ultimately it doesn't really matter how Maduro did in the elections (though he probably did win them because again, they run the street organizations). What matters is that Venezuela will likely not 'get better' under a neoliberal thumb. Venezuela is between a rock and a hard place. I don't envy the leadership or the populace there.
Yeah that would be a good reason. And I didn't know about the ML party getting banned. Is that the Communist Party of Venezuela that is now denouncing Maduro? It does seem silly and suicidal to side with the US backed opp as a response... sort of like what libs think us not supporting the dems is.
Yeah, that's been an ongoing saga for the past couple of years. I was very critical of the decision to ban it initially, you know soc-dems doing soc-dems things, but the CPV's interventionist response to being banned has me thinking that they have been completely compromised by U.S. money or promises.
Communist Parties do do that often times when the ruling socialist or progressive anti-west government turn on them. Happened in Iran to half the communist movement, happened in Egypt under Nasser, happened twice in Syria during and after the UAR, happened in Peru under Velasco though in a situation in which the PCP remainder supported the government but the government refused to work with them meanwhile PCP split and many Marxists opposed or remained critical of the government. In those last three cases that is while the USSR has close ties to the government.
Sometimes it is people being cranks, but that is not to say there is not a serious precedent for the international position of supporting progressive governments means the squashing of real communist movements in a given country. The USSR and China had their fair share of backing strategic leaders and a good call or not for the USSR, it often times was harmful to a country's potential move towards communism.
Even when CPV was backing PSUV there was tension and Marxists calling PSUV revisionist and CPV leadership tailists, so the CC becoming embittered tailists who got pissed when their position in the alliance never rose is not crazy
Far from an expert here, but imo you only need to look at the media coverage itself to at least see that the idea of a huge popular upswell is bunk. I've been scouring the reportage for a long shot of these protests, and nothing. How about the opposition figures in front of a crowd? Again, nothing. It's always a handful of goons in a conference room. Meanwhile, Maduro still demonstrably has a huge social base, going by the attendance at rallies, official support from social orgs etc.
There have almost certainly been irregularities dgmw, but, as has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the election was hopelessly compromised from the get go. It's just not possible to have 'free and fair' elections under circumstances such as this.
With regard to other forms of suppression e.g. Machado's disqualification, well... I mean she's openly calling for foreign intervention, is collaborating with hostile state actors, and she's a fucking nazi.
If liberal democracy worked as advertised, the opposition would have conceded to a new political consensus by now, and perhaps even be back in power. They could just say, "ok, the nationalized oil stays. Now, why not let us manage it instead?" But they have not ceded an inch on privatisations, and they won't either. Liberal democracy demands that the complete dismantling of the meagre gains of chavismo be on the table at every election.
Maybe it's just me but if there are Leftists who initially took power with popular support, mobilized popular support to prevent coups multiple times, and then continue to keep fascists at bay through some electoral fraud in order to maintain power, is that so bad?
I feel like "democracy" brainworms is something I've been working on myself and, in cases like these, what does it matter if in a given election a leftist Party doesn't win majority? Most of the time, maybe, Leftists won't win majority until they finally take power by force. It doesn't mean they shouldn't take power to do better for the people. In Venezuela, they are currently severely limited and impaired by the US sanctions but it's still a better existence than under capitalist coup conspirators.I didn't watch the video but I'm sure people in Venezuela are struggling right now and this may be why Maduro is less popular, but in my opinion it's mostly the fault of the US. If Maduro can stay in power to maintain the revolution and hopefully turn things around, then that's good even if there was a little electoral fraud.
That being said, I don't think nor know if there was any.
Uncritical support to the Bolivarian Revolution.
The main question here imo is if Maduro and the rest of the Chavistas can still be called "leftist" when they're basically just socdems at this point.
I'm also unsure how things would shake out for standard of living for the average venezuelan if an opposition government got in and sanctions were lifted, even if they ended up privatizing everything. Not in favor of it, to be clear, but I'm not sure of a precedent.
That's fair. I don't know too much about what's going on since Maduro took power, to be honest. But still would prefer Chavista social democrats fighting off the imperial core with popular support than fascist collaborationists with business interests.
Easy for me to say, of course, but I can't imagine life will be better for the poor and working class under the latter. That's probably why Maduro still has support.
badempanada is annoying but some of the stuff he brought up is legitimately suspicious. This election was very likely rigged
Having said that, I don't really care if maduro rigged the election. Election rigging can be perfectly fine in some cases and this might be one of those
Not gonna watch the video because I can't stand this kind of youtuber. What points did he bring up? Everything I've seen just points the allegations from the far right to be bunk and the only evidence they have is from a firm that is definitely a State Dep cutout.
Started watching but didn't finish it because at like 3 minutes he outright says "I'm not going to cite anything because the people who support Maduro wouldn't believe any sources anyway". So nothing. He claims that "if you saw the videos venezuelans are being sent from family still in venezuela" you would agree with them. Which, okay, maybe post one then?
That's exactly why I don't like these unserious youtubers. Just preaching to a choir and they're so complacent they don't even hear themselves.
stuff like pre-election polling showing clear opposition victory. And government still refusing to release raw vote counts, which seems to be highly irregular
The polls that gave the election to Gonzalez were from Edison which is a State Dept cutout, I don't know why they haven't released the vote counts yet but I'm sure it will all come about eventually. Ultimately, they don't owe the US anything of course, and it's not like the election was close either.
The polls that gave the election to Gonzalez were from Edison which is a State Dept cutout
I'm talking about pre-election polls, not exit polls. Idk, I've heard Venezuelan pollster are not great, especially firms like Meganalisis but who knows
Ah, sorry. Still, the fact the US had their guys in there gives a lot more weight to the notion this is just Guaido 2.0 and Maduro won cleanly, and I've yet to see any concrete evidence that there was anything actually fishy with the elections. The exit polls from Hinterlaces line up with the official results so I can't see why we should be casting doubt. The fact that a leftist with a moderately large audience is trying to carry water for the CIA is shameful in this circumstance where the op is so obvious.
Show
There very well may have been fraud, and I won't pretend that Maduro hasn't maneuvered in dishonest or outright illegal ways to avoid the Chavistas losing power. And I do think it is fair to say he hasn't managed well and has lost the socialists there a lot of good will which just makes foreign interventionism easier.
However BE's framing of this is unsympathetic. Like he will for sure agree that Maduro being in power is better than the alternatives, he has said as much in the past week, but because of how approaches controversy he can't help himself but frame it this way. It is really annoying and I say this as someone who defends him 9 times out of 10.
I get that it is frustrating to see some leftists utterly dismiss some of the reality in Venezuela or any other country. There is a certain blindspot plenty of us have. You see it when Ortega is mentioned, you see it when Iran comes up. But antagonism is not going to fix that, and certainly not WHILE coup attempts are happening. He could save that shit for after like he did when he talked about Maduro previously. But then again, holding onto power, however better than the alternative electoral options they may be, is harming socialism in the country if this continues. Maduro should stay in power right now, but by god PSUV needs to have a new face, Maduro needs an established successor and one who won't come off as obviously hand picked. I think that is what BE is mostly pissed about, that people are taking tactical necessity and treating it as everything is going well or this is ideal.
But again, bitching about people bitching about other people is not really helping either so this type of talk is useless
that people are taking tactical necessity and treating it as everything is going well or this is ideal.
Many such cases
He’s the last person to call other people brainless internet children
Not sure why people take the gringo sexpat seriously. People should look up his takes on the Russian invasion of Ukraine. They have not aged well at all.
without a class conscious organized mass movement any individual person on the internet people look to as a left authority will go insane, the human brain is just not suited for this
