I'll start, I missed the outdoor cats struggle session so i don't know what its deal was except a vague idea that outdoor cats were bad, so I've let my two cats stay being outdoor cats because I feel bad locking them inside, like I want to give them some experience of freedom to go where they please so they can live more fulfilling lives
Edit: also kruschev is imo a lot better than most hexbear users give him credit for
I hate the quote "the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house." I am positive I can demolish his house with his killdozer.
EDIT: I'm pretty sure I got yelled at the last time I posted this lol.
unclear, but once you replace a couple parts it'll definitely be theseus' killdozer
It's because you are just poking at the metaphor without engaging with the actual idea.
The master's "tools" are methods of subjugation that are incompatible with liberation.
Saying that you are going to just use the master's killdozer to destroy the house is the same argumentative approach as liberals who see that comic of people standing on boxes to look over a fence and responding "they shouldn't be allowed to see the game without a ticket anyway".
Isn't that exactly what Marxism is? Dialectics and the contradiction of capitalism that the proletariat are the ones who can perform material action upon reality but the social relation of bourgeois ownership of the MOP alienates the proletariat from doing that in earnest (revolution)
The best struggle sessions need to not be so important that they might split the site (unless getting rid of the reactionaries is the point), but also not so unimportant that nobody will give a shit.
It also needs to be something that people will have a personal opinion on, so like "Should we have critical support of this small party from 1952 in Liechtenstein" probably won't bring engagement because nobody knows anything about it.
And finally, it should be something that hasn't been debated to death already in the mainstream, so that people aren't already tired of talking about it.
so the outdoor/indoor cat thing was purrfect. outdoor cats do have very real-world consequences on species but aren't like, a driving cause of ecological destruction unlike capitalists, people have opinions on it because many are cat owners or know cat owners, and it wasn't something all over the news already.
my only real idea is "Nuclear energy: good or bad?" but that's been a public debate for decades now
What about wearing shoes indoors? That's always a good one because people who haven't done it before don't know it breaks down heavily based on region and climate and culture, so they yell past each other for a long time.
The only time it's not stupid to wear shoes indoors is if your floor is already filthy
When you say shoes indoors do you mean like, full sneakers or just slippers? Slippers seem fine (especially no-rise ones) but walking around shoes indoors feels
If you live in like Cali or something where it doesn't snow or muck up, people just wear their shoes from outside. It's weird as hell to me, but all they have to do is just vacuum to clean it up (cause yeah people even wear their outdoor shoes on rugs and carpets). I always wonder when exactly a shoes-inside style person chooses to put on their shoes... surely they're not going to sleep with them on, do they only do it when they're about to go outside? Is it the sign of a shut-in for them if you don't have shoes on ever???
Most shoes are not designed well and squeeze your feet inward. The longest point should be at your big toe, but for most shoes it’s in the middle (visual). By taking them off indoors you’re giving your feet some relief.
I would go further and say that shoes designed like that shouldn't be worn at all. The natural footshape shoe industry is gaining some popularity. Why ruin your feet for fashion? But this comment strays a bit from the original point.
Oh yeah I remember. Vibram 5 fingers were a big thing in a group i used to hang out with until everyone got sick of having blisters between their toes and constant broken toes.
What if someone's feet are FILTHY? Dirtier than the shoes by far. Covered in mud and grass. Should I take my shoes off then?
it breaks down heavily based on region and climate and culture
Is there any case where it’s culturally or religiously important (not just everybody does it, but it actually being a requirement) to keep your shoes on though? The only shoe related cultural and religious rules I know are about taking your shoes off (many Asian cultures and Islam).
I don't know. I know some SE Asian cultures have taboos about other people seeing the bottoms of your feet, but I've never heard of anyone keeping their shoes on to avoid vioplating that taboo.
I've only ever seen people wear shoes indoors in places where winter doesn't exist.
Can we do "please use a washcloth in the shower?"
I think it has the potential to really annoy the core audience here, and also gives room for loofah posting.
I'll bite: why? its just another rag that I'll have to run through the wash every like 2 days
Because actually using a wet cloth to scrub something gets it cleaner than just putting soap on it then rinsing. If you think you're doing a good job scrubbing with your fingers, you aren't getting nearly as much coverage as you'd get in half the time with a rag.
also exfoliation.
There you go. That's the spirit. Now we got the struggle sesh.
wiping themselves with a bacteria rag
Gonna blow your mind here: you wash them.
Some people rinse/wring. I hang mine to dry in the shower and just toss it in a bucket the next day to wash with the towels.
Rags are like $10 for a dozen, so like, as long as you're doing laundry regularly
, you should be fine.Hmm, people seem to have one each here. I don't think I see anyone with multiple wash clothes floating around.
Its not a matter of abrasion or exfoliation, so much as friction. Soap helps but the primary cleaning mechanism in any shower or bath is manually scrubbing dirt particles away. A washcloth or loofah is objectively better than your hands or a raw bar of soap.
Objectively better at doing what? What goal are you trying to achieve? Does it reduce rates of skin infection? Improve skin health? Make you live longer? Make you happier? It really sounds like conformity to an arbitrary cultural perception of "cleanness" that isn't related to any actual health or sanitary issues, but rather, dare I say, artificially created by loofah companies to sell more loofahs (which, as biological planet material, are subject to decay and harboring bacteria!)
Objectively better at doing what?
Removing dirt
What goal are you trying to achieve?
Clean balls
Does it reduce rates of skin infection? Improve skin health? Make you live longer? Make you happier?
Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, and also you can wear it as a hat.
It really sounds like conformity to an arbitrary cultural perception of "cleanness" that isn't related to any actual health or sanitary issues.
I bet you dont use a bidet either.
but rather, dare I say, artificially created by loofah companies to sell more loofahs
I grew mine guerilla gardening in the sump pond a condemned ampartment complex. The complex is condemned because i released native bedbugs and sprayed community-sourced MRSA on the doorhandles in an act of anti-landlord praxis. The loofa gourds are not native however, and have started choking out the grasses of the local dogpark. This is a double blow against DSA PMC gentrification and i am a better leftist than you. I will send you loofa seeds by COD mail. You will grow them. You do not have a choice in this.
which, as biological planet material, are subject to decay and harboring bacteria!
I bet you're not composting your drain-hair either.
Okay guerilla loofahs is cool as hell. I will start washing my balls now in honor of your good works.
Thank you for delighting us with another example of Hexbear Hygiene Advice™
Loofas get gross quickly. Leaving a wet thing in your shower is inviting bacteria and mold that you'll keep scrubbing everywhere.
Washcloth way more hygienic. If you want it to be as gross as a loofah don't even bother replacing it.
If you rinse, wring out, and hang the loofa it dries oit.
PS in the spirit of this thread, I'll declare that your opinion makes you somehow anti-black.
I put up one of those sticky hooks near a window just for this purpose! Never had a loofah get gross on me. I am using the gourd type, too.
No I swear to god it's a yt people thing to not use wash clothes.
Wash...cloth?
Like a cloth you use for washing?
Who has ever heard of such a thing?
How you wash and where and in what manner is very much a culture thing and varies enormously. Washing legs is one that used to pop up a lot on reddit, with half the thread being like "Wash what? there's nothing on my legs?" and the other half denouncing them as horrible slime monsters who should be held down and scrubbed for their own good.
I'll declare that your opinion makes you somehow anti-black.
Now we're making progress!
These are baseless assertions - Your skin is covered in a layer of oils and skin that will capture your grime, and will naturally come off with hands and soap in running warm water. Unless you're regularly covered in like glue or you're showering every hour then using your hands will absolutely work to the same efficacy.
Exfoliation happens naturally, it does not need artificially scrubbing and materials unless you have a medical condition. My own baseless assertion is that scrubbing with a sponge or rag will remove more oils or skin than you should and instead expose and dry out your skin, making it worse.
I like to keep my assertions baseless, as it affords me more agility.
You'll need that agility to catch all the gross wet rags you're dropping.
spoiler
Am I struggling right?
Just wash it with your towels. And loofahs that you never wash just turn into big bacteria sponges that you smear all over your body
but I already don't wash my towels enough (nothing awful but I like to get more than one use out of them) and washcloths get so much dirtier. easier to just spend the extra time and scrub with my hands
Bunch of fake leftists in this thread. I only use rainwater to clean myself
A true leftist can banish bacteria and grime by sheer love of the people
As an anarchist friend of mine once said, somebody's got to represent the stinkies.
Rainwater contains microplastics, sweaty. I only wash with distilled white fuel.
This one is genius. It's genius because people can be mildly offended by it, and need to retort to defend their honor. "What, you're saying my body is grubby all the time?" "Of course I wash my washcloth after every use!" "No my bathroom is not infested with bacteria!" I'll be back in a couple of hours to check how it's going
If you shave all the SMELL ZONES then hand-washing is enough.
Seal smooth gang stay winning.
Do people really not use a washcloth, loofah or sponge? I've used one all my life, and I'm broke.
These are lies sold to you by the wash-material bourgeoisie, comrade. You can absolutely handwash to perfect cleanliness without having a disgusting filth-collector to do it.
I only use one occasionally. I need to up my showering game.
No. It's a combination of culture and personal choice. Bathing practices very enormously across different cultures and such. There's probably a pretty cool youtube series on going around the world and talking about how different people wash.
this mf using one of those green and yellow kitchen sponges in the shower l m a o
Personally I retvrned to tradition and started rubbing myself down with olive oil and scraping it off like the Greeks of old
I'm using a loofah now, but if it doesn't help my acne soon I'm gonna take drastic measures and break out the steel wool
I hope it's not here. I got rugburn on my glans last week and it sucked.
There's not really anything to argue about here, I think everyone can agree that altering a babies genitals is bad. I don't see how it becomes contentious unless you start including stuff like male initiation rituals into the mix
Permanently cutting off a body part (especially such a sensitive one, especially on a literal baby) without consent or medical necessity is bad, there’s no good argument against that.
The best argument I’ve heard for circumcision in general is hygiene, but like, just pull your foreskin back and wash well, it’s not that hard.
Also reminder that it’s only a thing in America because the Kellogg’s cereal guy thought it would stop masturbation, which it doesn’t even do.
And now the most contentious part:
I feel like most defenders just can’t accept that their dick got messed up for no good reason. Which yeah, it must suck, but don’t do it to others because it was done to you.
I feel like most defenders just can’t accept that their dick got messed up for no good reason. Which yeah, it must suck, but don’t do it to others because it was done to you.
One of the most horrifying and weird common
takes is when they normalize the idea of circumcising their sons "to look like their old man." 
My dad said this lol. But my mom was a crystal loving weirdo hippie at the time and refused to allow it, and thank god for that.
(I feel almost bad posting this because 99/100 times my dad was the better parent.)
My dad said this lol. But my mom was a crystal loving weirdo hippie at the time and refused to allow it, and thank god for that.
It's kind of spooky that they somehow told you or you found out how close you came to an unnecessary surgery you didn't ask for and you didn't want.
Never really thought about it, but you're right. I think its because I accidentally saw my dad's dick once and saw his lack of foreskin and asked my mom about it or something? Can't remember.
I can't even fully get down to why the statement "make the baby look like the old man" creeps me out so much. The pathology of it is weird even if no direct sexual connotations are made.
No its a completely natural reaction and I completely agree with it. I'd probably go harder on my dad for it if he hadn't been a earnestly good parent most of the time.
The best argument I’ve heard for circumcision in general is hygiene, but like, just pull your foreskin back and wash well, it’s not that hard.
Yeah, that argument is bull. It's just flat out not a real thing.
I remember hearing once that circumcision reduced the transmission of HPV, but even if that's true, there's a vaccine for that now.
Do we even have enough people that are pro-circumcision? I think the most contrarian take you'll get is that it's not equivalent with FGM like some redditors would say.
It’s definitely nowhere near as bad as FGM, afaik the male equivalent would be cutting off the entire head, but it’s still comparable in that it’s a permanent genital modification done to a baby. I consider it to still technically be mutilation, but I understand using that word can imply equivalence between the two.
I actually have some nuance to throw on the fire, and I'm going to put this behind a CW: because it's not nice to talk about, but it deals with NGOs misrepresenting cultural practices to further NGO imperialism.
spoiler
Liberal NGO imperialism uses, or at least used to use, FGM as a bludgeon. There are a great diversity of "female circumcision" practices. Some, like infibulation, are horrible and cause enormous damage and trauma. Some involve or more less destructive surgical mutilation, including some practices which are directly analogous to male circumcision. And some, and this is where the NGO imperialism becomes more obvious, don't involve any cutting or removal of tissue. In some cases a needle is used to produce a drop of blood which is considered sufficient to achieve the necessary ritual cleanliness or whatever. In some cases there's no blood at all - In one example a needle is held near the clitoral hood and a drop of chicken blood is dabbed on the body - The "circumcision" has become entirely symbolic with no actual harm to the child.
But infibulation and other practices where there is actual cutting are so horrifying to westerners (and many people from the cultures where it's practiced) that NGOs found if they inform westerners about infibulation, then use the broad term "FGM" to encompass many different practices from across a broad swath of the world. All those cultures would be stained by the association with infibulation, and NGOs could use this to justify whatever interventions they wanted to carry out under a "save the women" campaign.
Okay that's my take. Carry on.
And unfortunately I don't have any sources on hand. I looked in to this once, but it was years and years ago.
I'm honestly surprised we don't have any Jewish people speaking up for it for religious reasons.
Religion is fine as long as you aren’t imposing it on anyone else, but religion doesn’t excuse doing it to a baby.
Well I am Jewish but reform. Isn't it mostly Orthodox Jews that care? Do we even have any Orthodox posters?
I think the most contrarian take you'll get is that it's not equivalent with FGM like some redditors would say.
That would only be an appropriate response to saying "what about men" in a thread about FGM, which I have seen a million times, but I've never seen a stray post on circumcision that would warrant it.
I'm circumcised, which means I don't have to wash my dick.
No one else seems to think so. In fact, this seems to be the least controversial statement made on this website in the past week. I think it's time for you to do a little self criticism.
except a vague idea that outdoor cats were bad
??!?
Repeat this 72691 times and you have the cat struggle session.
And if you don't have a strong opinion either way both sides will agree you are in fact the biggest centrist liberal to ever live.
I don't judge outdoor cat havers, but it makes me sad thinking about how likely they are to get hit by cars or have a bad coyote encounter
Not having them eating birds is also nice too
ACAB includes spins wheel dictionaries. Prescriptivist spelling is classist.
Am I allowed to say "this, but only half-ironically"?
The problem isn't really with dictionaries, which are a great tool for documenting and learning a language as it changes. I have nothing but respect for the editors of dictionaries. The problem is more with the way that a lot of people treat dictionaries as an authority, even though that isn't what they're supposed to be used for. This ends up being just one way in which a sort of hegemonic standard language is established/reproduced, which marginalizes non-standard language use.
...I dunno where I'm going with this. I just started typing and then blacked out for a second.
nono 1. you never admit irony voluntarily and 2. blacking out and continuing the rant is what starts the best struggle sessions. in the spirit of this thread, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, AND THE POST MUST CONTINUE FOR HIS THRONE
Prescriptivism is racist! Every culture and subculture has "correct" grammar! Everyone has an accent even if they don't acknowledge it! You'll never catch me alive spelling police!
*jumps out the window on to a waiting horse*
I've actually seen this argument go down but I don't remember if it was here or not
100% unironically absolutely agree. Standardization of spelling was a bougeious trick played on society to make factory work more efficient and linguistic prescriptivists are are scum.
Descriptivist gang gang!
Show
Oh sit I just realized I fucked up this meme now I have to fo and fix it.
Compulsory public school is a topic that could easily turn into a struggle session.
I'll get us started: compulsory public education in a capitalist society is prone to child abuse. It's where imperial propaganda gets ingrained and where people who want power over children have unlimited access to control them.
Being anti-public education is literally a fascist talking point and one that's dangerously popular with US conservatives already. Public education is far from perfect, but removing resources will make every single problem with it worse. Besides, teacher's unions are one of the last viable union careers.
Teachers are cops and being pro teacher is pro cop. Literally if you try to refuse public school as a child, violent enforcement will be threatened and eventually called if you don't confirm.
Public education is one of the basic principles of any socialist program. Public education was one of the very first things the USSR and Cuba did. Uneducated people fall easier to propaganda.
Okay those are socialist societies. Under capitalism capitalist propaganda is taught. I'm for public education, but not forcing it. Tell me how you can justify using violence on a literal child so they can learn how great slaveowners were and how to be a good working peon.
Didn't even realise it was the same user arguing back and forth with themselves lmao
I'm glad I noticed what was going on before I embarrassed myself by trying to argue.
I think there are valid arguments to make if you wanna get down.
This is an all time bit, had me fully staring at my screen like :foucault-madness:
Yeah, but look at he numbers. They don't educate us here. Most people are functionally illeterate. See? I can't even spell illeterate
Literally if you try to refuse public school as a child, violent enforcement will be threatened and eventually called if you don't confirm.
Not being glib here, but is that bad? I think the world would be a much worse place if certain children were just allowed to op-out of education in a tantrum.
'School should be optional' is a half step from 'bedtimes are authoritarian'.
The question is what would opting out of education look like? Homeschool is not great, certainly doesn't work for poor people. Same with private school. Does this child just stay at home while their parents work? Do they get no education? Do we let YouTube teach them everything?
I propose we allow children to opt out of traditional education to train an ensemble of starcraft geniuses so we can watch them compete.
I am not in fact a Foucault, but you can PM me him
Police are class traitors who's job is to use violence to perpetuate the system of capital. Teachers in practice are not dissimilar in quality, only quantity
You can’t be serious. If teachers exist to persevere capital, do you seriously think teachers would no longer exist in socialism?
Education would have to exist. There is simply no way it would look anything like our broken unproductive system we have now though. So teachers as we know them, they wouldn't exist.
Isn't that being idealistic though? In socialist society every institution would look completely different. But we are nowhere near building socialism in America and children need to go to school. So some compromise has to be made. And I would 100% rather tax dollars go to teachers and students rather than cops.
Children need to be socialized, educated, and cared for. Objectively our instruction of school don't accomplish this. I am not an expert in the field. However, all the literature I have ever read concludes that you wouldn't expect a system that looks like ours to get any of that done. So I don't actually know what the correct answer would be. You are right it is better for tax dollars to go to schools instead of cops. However looking at municipal budgets, we don't do that either. So the system is a failure in every possible way.
I think one issue is you are looking at schools as a monolith which of course has deep systemic and systematic problems. But schools can vary hugely in the quality of education. I'm not just talking about the difference between rural Alabama vs suburban California, even schools in the same district can vary a lot in quality of education delivered.
Calling the system a failure in every way is extreme to the point of being meaningless. Students do still learn how to read and write, basic maths and science, basic history. Obviously those are biased, especially history, but consider what would happen if there were no public schools even flawed as they might be. Children would literally be taught that the Earth is 3000 years old, Adam and Eve were the first humans, and in Utah that Native Americans were a Jewish tribe that had their skin turned red because of their sin.
There are shitty and abusive teachers out there, but I genuinely believe that most are in it to help children and are handcuffed by the system. And many, many teachers do their best to educate within the limitations of that system.
Cutting cops budgets tomorrow would immediately help people. Cutting school budgets would immediately make things worse for children. I urge you to rethink your position. We shouldn't eliminate hospitals because the healthcare is shit.
I think dogs should be allowed to stay outside all day provided they have shelter and lots of water.
idk I'm trying to think of a really good one but I can't come up with anything.
How about "Reading Marx is revisionist because Socialism is supposed to be scientific and relying too much on a "golden age" of theory is akin to reactionary thinking"? Is that anything?
Ooh that could be a good one. Could also just have the revisionism one, since almost nobody agrees where the line is there, it's like arguing with people anywhere between Idaho and Missouri what "midwest" means.
Revisionism is when I don't like other communists, and the more I don't like them the more revisionist they are.
Midwest ends at the Mississippi then its just wasteland until you get to Cascadia and California.
See this is what I mean, a lot of people contend that Nevada and other places just east of California/Oregon/Washington don't count.
Through the immortal science I have determined Marx was wrong about everything because he died and therefore can't lead revolution.
How about "Reading Marx is revisionist because Socialism is supposed to be scientific and relying too much on a "golden age" of theory is akin to reactionary thinking"?
I feel like that's just answered by Mao's "Against Book Worship".
I think dogs should be allowed to stay outside all day provided they have shelter and lots of water.
If they want to, sure. But chaining them up outside and leaving them there all day or just never letting them inside isn’t good.
I tried to have one about Nicolas Maduro the other day but no one was brave enough to weigh in:
https://hexbear.net/post/353817
please guys 0 comments hurts
the problem with this one is that all the libs/chuds have the biggest opinions. it's hard to struggle over "he's fine, the US should leave Venezuela alone"
Yeah, I guess so. Selfishly I guess I just wanted to hear people's takes on it who were better read than me on the situation so I could have some data/resources to look at. I figured that the best way to get that was to do some infighting, lol.
Takes on most countries are "they're fine, the US should leave them alone", I was hoping for further insight.
yeah, that's why I upbeared the thread, was hoping to learn more also
Yeah, like, I think it's pretty difficult to judge how well eg he's managing the economy when they're under crippling sanctions. Like okay that means he's worse than Fidel but christ that's a high bar.
Yeah, it is very difficult. He's got a very difficult job to do. Still, his successes and failures can be assessed.
the one "failure" that comes to mind was that time a Venezuelan navy guy thought stopping dead in front of an ice breaker was a good idea
in a vessel that was essentially made of fibreglass
versus something designed to plow though sea ice
i get why Maduro went all "this is a grave attack on us" and all that shit, but come on, your navy guy is not the smartest lmao
The one comment
Show
Literally 1984 that our mods just deleted whatever this dumbass said
Hahaha, yeah, it was some gibberish about Guiado, I honestly couldn't tell if they were saying he was good or bad it was so incoherent.
Anyway, before I could figure it out my post actually showed as -1 comments due to the deletion.
Maduro does shady stuff like he's involved in drug trafficking, but also his country regularly has its boats robbed and its money stolen by imperialist governments. I doubt he feels good about making money from mafias and drug cartels, but Venezuela has to bring in the money somehow. And imperialist nations have made it their mission to cripple Venezuela as much as possible through economic sanctions.
If he has most legal avenues of money cut off, it's only reasonable to expect he'd get involved with shady things. A country has to make money somehow, and at a certain point you have to decide what's more moral: letting people starve or selling drugs.
Search PSUV in news and you will find some comments on this week's and last week's news mega about Maduro and the PSUV attacking the Venezuela communists lately.
We can restart the struggle session about when 17 year old children make one big bad decision and that makes them irredeemable for life no matter what end of story. That was a fun struggle session. It's extra fun because it's also a far right wing view depending on the mistake, so it gets everyone upset
I saw "17 year old" and I instantly remembered the "power dynamics" struggle sesh
The fun thing about how I phrased it is it refers to multiple struggle sessions! Yay!
wasn't that one the one time libsoc was ever right
Yes, but a load of people came out to argue against them anyway which was so fucking cringe, like I became an actual liberalsocialist supporter over that, I almost made an actual "LiberalSocialist appreciation thread" just to fuck with people after it, then couldn't be bothered - and then they posted AOC was doing what the unions wanted and that support I felt diminished a lot
Maybe they're talking about the 19 year old that got turned into soup on the Titanic sub
Nah, afaik there wasn’t much argument over that. He was dragged there by his dad despite not wanting to go.
No i think at least some people talked shit about him because at least 1 person mentioned it to me later on, having been in that sorta argument
My brain is half melted nobody is letting me anywhere near a weapon.
I think some half measures are fine, as long as we're thoughtful about it.
Yeah I guess it is now. A few weeks ago I think the same user (but a different account) was doing a "stay out of my territory" bit on a specific sub community.
Hell yeah, I can work with this.
I will literally constrict my own ravioli and become anerobic before I tolerate living in niccotine hell again!
I think Covid & climate induced wildfires have caused a real shift in the perception of air quality. In that we've all realized its really shit. CO² levels alone in crowded buildings commonly exceed thresholds recognized to cause minor cognitive deficits. Even in hospital settings most modern buildings have a pretty pathetic exchange & filtration rate with the outside air, and thats saying nothing of the basically non-existant regulations on other public or communal spaces.
Modern society requires drastic retrofits and rebuildings to basically everywhere to have decent quality air. Under global communism there will be robust enough filtration systems to let me smoke a fat blunt at Kroger.
Edit:Also diner food hits different when the cook gets ash in the pan. You just dont get it.
I lived in tobacco country for a time and I feel you on that diner food.
I will become a sovereign air citizen before I allow society to violate my breathing air like that.
If we have to live in hell world, at least let me smoke inside. I did quit a while ago tho
No no let's combine them.
Anyone that isn't vegan isn't a real Lemming and we should defederate from them.
There's something here to be said about that one documentary where they threw lemmings off a cliff to get a good shot
so I've let my two cats stay being outdoor cats
you are liberal, its terminal
