Timestamps:
0:00 - Introduction
04:12 - Pigs
23:19 - Egg-Laying Hens
30:49 - Broiler (Meat) Chickens
41:11 - Turkeys
45:29 - Ducks
53:03 - Cows
1:11:07 - Sheep
1:17:19 - Goats
1:21:57 - Fish
1:26:46 - Rabbits
1:29:24 - Minks
1:30:55 - Foxes
1:32:23 - Dogs
1:37:58 - Horses
1:40:43 - Camels
1:42:16 - Mice
1:43:51 - Exotic Animals
1:46:07 - Seals & Dolphins
1:49:16 - Conclusion
1:55:47 - Closing Credits
This was the doc that sold me fully on going vegan.
If you like meat, learn more about where it comes and the practices you are promoting to access it, then decide whether or not to continue.
:heart-sickle:
Having friends and family to share the interest in going vegan with is very helpful.
Your individual choices are meaningless.
This isn't true, evidenced clearly by the huge rise in vegan products being introduced in grocery stores, restaurants, fast food places, etc.
The dairy industry is crashing for a real reason, and not because the dairy producers are happy to let it go.
You're right that corporations will push veganism before taking personal responsibility of course, which is why the push should be against factory farming and massive meat and dairy subsidies first, not blaming meat eaters on an individual level.
Vegans spending the energy they spend trying to get people “woke” to industrial ag on organizing for humane alternatives to capitalism would accomplish 100x more for your goals
This is part of veganism.
My ideal is if you feel strongly enough about the ethical and environmental concerns to be vegan but then do nothing to inform others, you don't really believe in it that strongly.
This documentary is literally exposing the factory farming industry, no part of it blames individuals. That's why I love it and think people should give it a watch.
not blaming meat eaters on an individual level.
You're literally dismissing people as carnists and bloodmouths
it's not a big deal but it's not productive to a good conversation
Learn to distinguish what jokes are from reality, liberal.
okay, point still stands that I wouldn't go on reddit to get people on my side by calling them libs and bootlickers
If there was a company slaughtering humans and selling their meat, my first reaction wouldn't be "Aw well, I might as well consume human flesh, they'll probably get subsidies if I don't anyway."
How often do you see the anti-war movement committing major acts of sabotage?
Yes and we must only ever take the most direct route to solving a problem fucking brain dead take dude
Edit: I’m being cute here but it’s a bullshit comparison because the act of cannibalism is so morally repulsive that the scenario of human meat farming is absurd and impossible. In this scenario our systems actually function as intended since the consumption of human flesh is illegal.
This is sort of my point, though. The idea that veganism is a personal responsibility narriative only works if you assume that farming doesn't rise to a sufficiently high leval of moral repugnance. Otherwise we'd all say "fuck the practicalities, there's no way I'm partaking in that", especially when in this case partaking is something as visceral as eating flesh or other animal products. The whole point of videos like the one in the OP is that for many people if they were truly confronted with the realities of livestock farming, it would rise to that level of repugnance.
Even if you don't buy into the compassion toward animals argument or the pollution argument, you could always do it for the purely selfish reasons: Go vegan and lower your chances of stuff like colon cancer and heart disease.
Don't let the suffering machines of capitalism and meat clog your arteries.
Boy this is a bullshit take that’s extremely ignorant of the actual logistical Differences between animal agriculture and crop agriculture. Why do you think that historically the food of the poorest peoples use very minimal meat and dairy? These are luxury products that when scaled up do incredible harm to the environment and require massive use of resources that could otherwise be used for humanity. Look into how much fucking water goes into beef and dairy dude. Yeah individual consumer choices aren’t activism I don’t think anyone’s deluding themselves about that but 1. The proletarian diet has historically been 90% plant based a la southern Italy, India, SE Asia, etc, and 2. If you actually give a shit about the impending climate apocalypse then the questions of what we eat and how it is produced are of the utmost importance to consider. If calling it a bourgeoisie affectation makes you feel better about Not making a relatively easy lifestyle choice that’s better for you and everyone around you then go ahead but educate yourself before acting like eating a vegan diet isn’t the single easiest, cheapest, and most effective ways to reduce your individual carbon footprint. And don’t fucking act like it’s either or, all us vegans are perfectly capable of political organizing AND trying to convince people to go vegan simultaneously, i do one or the other every fucking day. Yeah the problem is capitalism we all fucking agree but just because we’re swimming in bullshit personal responsibility narratives that aren’t true like recycling or electric cars or whatever doesn’t mean you can’t actually take small steps in your personal life to build towards a better world for everyone. It’s not about changing capitalism we all know that the meat and dairy industry will get propped up. but I challenge you to imagine a world where we can continue to consume the resources necessary for everyone to consume meat and dairy And we aren’t continually careening towards a climate apocalypse. EATING MEAT AND DAIRY IN EXCESS HAS HISTORICALLY BEEN A BOURGEOISIE AFFECTATION. THIS IS BECAUSE RAISING LIVESTOCK IS MORE RESOURCE INTENSIVE THAN GROWING CROPS. CATTLE ARE A HUGE SOURCE OF METHANE WHICH IS A WAY MORE POTENT GREENHOUSE GAS THAN C02. IF WE DESTROY CAPITALISM THESE PROBLEMS DO NOT JUST GO AWAY. and lucky for us we have to simultaneously destroy capitalism and avert climate crisis so stop being a dickhead uninformed contrarian and giving yourself a pass for not taking a small modicum of responsibility for helping out with the latter problem by just learning how to cook rice and beans like a real fucking prole.
Graphic videos aside, if you find vegans "pushy" or "self-righteous", please consider where these feelings might come from and why our emotional reactions to others' is often used to justify not changing our own behavior. For example, studies have found that vegetarians induce feelings of dissonance in otherwise humane meat-eaters and this may be because people who don't eat meat remind us of things we could be doing better but we're choosing not to. These dissonance-induced feelings are literally psychologically reactionary.
Anyone who switched from a conventional lifestyle to one with reduced animal products had the same feelings at some point too.
Have you considered that young vegans are annoying and for the most part can't properly argue for veganism. Not unlike a young leftist.
ahhh yes, and those young vegans and young leftists consider us reactionary old farts. the struggle session never ends
Vegans ARE annoying though. They'll scold you for eating egg drop ramen while shoving fistfuls of quinoa into their face. It's not dissonance, it's a double standard. Either you're exploiting, or you're starving to death. Wokescolding doesn't help leftist OR vegan causes, you have to realize that a good bit of us are omnivores and eating a burger is no more unethical than owning an iPhone. Yeah, it's all pretty shitty, but you have to consider material conditions when you engage in infighting over fucking diet.
I will refer you to this part of the thread where your argument about the iPhone being bad has already been discussed and is a cop-out.
I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make about eggs vs quinoa, but there is relatively little comparison in the environmental impact of the two, like when you compare animal products vs. grains (doesn't matter if imported or local). If you're referencing the old headlines speculating that it's production was bad for poor people in Peru, that media speculation was disproven once researchers started looking into it - source source source - and it may be a potentially critical crop for climate change adaptation (though careful planning will be needed to make it sustainable as a climate adaptive crop).
You're annoyed but you're not going to find much sympathy in this thread. Veganism is more than just diet, it is a critical ethical issue that relates to material exploitation of living beings which think, feel, and suffer. It's a moral issue and people get worked about moral issues - that's the point of my post and the articles I linked.
Bolivian farmers don't think, feel, or suffer? Quinoa is the most exploitative food products you can imagine. I'm aware the iPhone play is a cop out, I'm working or I'd type up a better argument. I'm not trying to convince anyone to not be a vegan, I fully support people finding any way to reduce the harm they cause to the environment, to a point. The zealotry associated with veganism is the only issue I take with it.
I'm ignoring your point on quinoa since you ignored my previous response. edit: I do want to add tho that assuming things are zero-sum games (either animals or farmers, rather than animals + farmers) is not usually how things work and perpetuates false pro-capitalist narratives about industrial farming. I got into veganism because I cared about the despicable mistreatment of migrant meat factory workers.
If vegan zealotry is the only issue you take with it, then surely you are also vegan or transitioning to vegan? because what kind of argument is that for not embracing something you fully support based on a vocal minority? Especially since most vegans do not bring this aspect of their lives up in public spaces in everyday life - they just go about their day buying tofu and rice, trying to figure out where to find leather-free shoes for work, and hoping their chud uncle won't give them shit for eating salad and fries at the next family meal out.
I'm not vegan, but pescatarian. I'm aware my opinion on vegans is fully skewed by my interactions with a few, and projecting it on every vegan is problematic. That's kinda the point I'm trying to make, though, some vegans do much the same, but to everyone who isn't vegan.
Totally understand. Some people think bullying works (cough chapo cough) and some do not. Hopefully you can see where I'm coming from too that the hate against vegans is usually disproportionate because of deeper reactance-based psychology and often used to justify not taking action rather than considering the arguments at-hand.
I dont mind vegans living a lifestyle they want and respect them if they respect me. I just hate the condescension where im just uneducated or im just a lower moral character than them. etc.
if they just coexist next to me im fine 100% I hate when they brow beat me when im already miserable and alienated as it is.
We do exist next to you and you don't even know it out in everyday life. Right now, you're on a leftist forum in a thread about veganism complaining about vegans reacting poorly to your anti-vegan stance.
Ill admit Im the asshole here.
and if you look at it in a vacuum ofc this is just a single leftist thread, but it IS a re occurring issue ive noticed and its not merely dissonance.
I would love to become vegan, but if im honest im too drained to do something that dramatic of a change for now. Especially when I really would have to restructure my life im a big way. I dont need a smug asshole talking down to me, it doesnt help. (not you but people in general who say i need to read/watch X and that i have justify myself to them in some way.)
Ill delete my post i made in annoyance and i apologize for the attitude you didn’t deserve that.
absolutely no worries and no need to delete, comrade. our back and forth may help others who are reading along or thinking through their reactions to this thread. i'm sorry to hear you're feeling beat down by things and i can only hope you things start going better for you soon. it took me about a year before i was "mostly vegan", so if you ever get to a place where you want to talk about baby steps feel free to DM.
We actually do have so many vegans here, it's great. The overlap between leftists and vegans is huge.
It's also funny to see reasonable people that hold up the ideal of full communism or socialism lose composure to defend eating meat in this thread because that would be a true inconvenience to attempt.
That's why I hope sharing the doc can at least inform people, even those who argue in favor of it.
I think seeing this should be common core education.
Seconding the above post - thanks for biting the bullet and starting this conversation. Reactionary takes be damned. What no one ever seems to remember is that the vast majority of vegans started off making the same jokes/bad arguments against it before eventually realizing this change is a critical part of alleviating mass unnecessary suffering.
Hopefully we'll get a /c/vegan soon, so chapos sorting by all can see that life goes on without animal products and can join us in true leftist moral superiority :vegan-edge:
I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do but I think a trigger warning might be appreciated prior to watching the documentary. There were a few gut wrenching scenes in there that I would say are burned into my mind now and I consider myself someone with a high tolerance for shit like that.
Wow, there's a lot of power behind this statement. I'll remember this next time I recommend Dominion.
Or maybe the words of an admin? Your binary classification is hindering productive conversation
Looking at the responses to the original post, it seems like the Lemmy is pretty hostile to veganism. I wouldn't mind having a place to talk about it without having to constantly justify our existence.
@Beatnik is hostile to veganism, as apparent from his comments on this post.
A veganism community is just as much about activism as it is about posting recipes. It's about a community working to help each other.
Those things cannot be posted to !food.
hostility = wanting a reasoned discussion?
Good news for you, if you want to help each other there's a community just for that !mutual_aid@hexbear.net
No one is telling vegans not to be vegan, people just don't want people universalising their dietary choice on to everyone else.
Simplifying an ethical truth down to "dietary choice" is ridiculous. It's likening anti-slavery to "consumerist choice".
I hope so because even if you don't switch to veganism, it's fascinating.
The level to which we have stripped any compassion for these animals in trade for efficiency is astounding. And the level of step-by-step detail is gripping, if rough.
I hope you do consider adding a !veganism community. A lot of us would appreciate a shared space to discuss the activism and spreading of information aspect to the ideal, on top of recipe sharing and food pictures. Those things cannot be posted to !food and likely would receive similar hostility as throughout this thread.
This doc was what helped me commit to it.
Thanks
My eggs come from a flock of 9 lovely sapphire gem chickens who have a peculiar affinity for zucchini.
I love vegan struggle sessions they're my personal guilty pleasure.
Eating chicken meat is less cruel than eating eggs.
At least the meat only requires the chicken to die once after living a life of eating a lot, "ethically raised".
Egg hens require a life of suffering as their bodies give out from producing a full egg every single day, then they're killed just like the meat chicken.
For being intentionally obtuse to someone making a good point?
As defined on what, some conceptual chicken population?
The point they're making is that if you have egg-laying chickens, their male siblings, cousins, etc were murdered soon after hatching because they are useless for your purposes.
were murdered soon after hatching
Likely by blender, as shown here in the doc: https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?t=1474
Sweet fucking Christ I was not expecting that
considered humane by the RSPCA
HOW??
I mean you can make that argument statistically for a hypothetical chicken, but knowing the granola type organic farm these ones came from I don't think that's applicable here.
Where did that farm get its chickens? Are they such big hippies that they called on Mother Nature to provide them slave-animals and so they appeared from the Earth?
No dude. They came from someone who murdered all the males.
Here's a fantastic video on why eating the eggs of backyard chickens is no better for the animals and still ethically wrong, because when an animal is seen as a resource, it is never a pet.
Chickens do not normally lay an egg daily, they only do it because we take the eggs they've laid. And that, for years on end, is hell on their bodies.
Which is a terrible thing to do to any animal you love.
Earthling Ed vid about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YFz99OT18k
If I start with the conclusion that backyard chickens are also bad (because veganism is ethical), then yes, I can get back to that conclusion.
I'd argue that "exploiting" "animal" and "ethical" have definitions contingent on one's intellectual and moral framework, and so it's a bit silly to assume that we can arrive at at universal, objective truth value for that moral claim.
Oh crap I hadn't realized that this is applicable to even positions I don't like what am I going to do now.
Keeping backyard chickens as pets means not eating their eggs. That's keeping them as a pet, not a resource.
Hens stop producing eggs if we don't take them, and they'll eat the eggs that don't hatch to get the nutrients back.
The myth of "chickens just make infinite eggs" is similar to the myth of "dairy cows are cows that just always make milk".
46 bears
242 comments
http://persephonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/kingofpopcorn1.gif
I've seen this and earthlings good documentaries. I like how this breaks it down by animal. I did decide to continue living as a blood mouth hope others decide to switch.
Damn, the video is seared into my mind. All I can think of anytime I eat meat is the months of suffering that goes into a few minutes of a meal for me. Not worth it.
Yeah I'm fucked I see the images before I eat it doesnt phase me, then again snuff doesnt really move me either I'm desensitized to images.
I grew up on a farm and saw slaughter first hand so it's been connected to meat for me my entire life.
I'm using my move to try again so third times the charm.
Good for yall trying to help others, I suppose if you can change one mind it's worth.
Yeah, glad you're here at least even if you're desensitized to the cruelty, rather than being some psychopath ALM chud.
Small steps along the way if you try again, I've never eaten pork so cutting beef was a good starting point for me.
Alternatives for meat are abundant now too if cravings arise. Even Burger King's selling Impossible Burgers, it's cool seeing plant-based options become so prevalent.
Yeah! I actually like beyond more, that and some of violife's products have helped diminish alot. My spouse had to stop eating all grains and legumes due to diabetes and trying to switch to vegan was too much then. Now that we have stopped with sugar we can add those back in and resume cutting down meat. Luckily we both find milk gross, as you said the alternatives are really amazing now compared to 15 years ago.
Curious if anyone knows of any permaculture based agricultural systems that include animals but dont use them?? Idk that's my goal is to establish a large farm but like ruminants, chickens and ducks their poop it's amazing for the plants.
Oatly is a fav of mine, I like it more than cow's milk, but probably not for a diabetic due to the natural sugar content.
Didn't know diabetics had issues with legumes, why is that? Just high carb into sugar?
Aquaculture does that with fish, keeping ducks as pets on a farm is pretty common for that too I think.
Oatly is godly, that company is going to be in every coffee shop in 3 years. More shelf-stable too, the expiration dates on it are like, several months from production.
Uses cheap and super environment friendly oats too.
I've been working to get into the practice of calling it "cow's milk" instead of "actual milk" too, that's very much a thing the dairy industry wants people to think and they are spending millions on lobbying against calling plant-milk "milk" in stores as a final death throw.
Milk is a fat-rich, tasty white liquid I use in my coffee, and oat milk is better at that than anything.
Also yes cum is boy milk
Is this one if those torture porn documentaries where they show gore that shocks you for a week and then you go back to eating animal products? Vegans should stop self-harming by watching shit like this because it's not even effective.
I would love it if vegans stopped ignoring that people become desensitized to violence after repeated exposure. Something something ethos pathos and logos.
Edit: I already know that chapos can't read, I don't need you to keep proving it to me.
Edit 2: me checking back this comment thread :doomer:
Nobody needs to watch thus stuff because it's both disgusting and useless. Like I said, people stop eating animal products for a short time and then go back. These types of documentaries make no real effort to convert people… just "isn't gore fucked up?"
Edit: I love that I wasn't corrected so I have to go with my assumption that it is torture porn lmao.
I'm a vegan in my late 30's, having started questioning my meat-consumption as a teen in the 90s and becoming vegan in the early 2000's in large part due to a similar doc Meet Your Meat. So no, people don't just go back to eating meat after watching this sort of thing as any kind of general rule of thumb. No more than former leftists go back to being libs or reactionaries because they watched a video about the torture people endure because of capitalism. That's a really weird claim for you to make actually.
Just as with leftism, there are a myriad of ways people arrive at veganism, including via being shown the kind of torture that meat consumption really does support and perpetuate. It was true for me and for a few others I've known. As for desensitization, sure... I'd imagine repeated and frequent exposure to these kinds of images does desensitize. But this isn't the kind of thing a person is supposed to watch over and over out of fascination or enjoyment, obviously. The initial shock and resulting realization about what a person's meat consumption is endorsing can be a powerful experience that can motivate a more empathetic and understanding outlook on something that can otherwise go unquestioned.
And go ahead and call it torture porn, but no, that's not accurate. "Porn" implies it's watched and gotten off to, or at least enjoyed. Anyone who enjoys seeing this kind of abject suffering and cruelty isn't likely to be swayed to become vegan by any means.
I've met vegans who went vegan for their anorexia lmao. I don't get what you mean.
Would you prefer it if I said "there are much more effective ways that don't involve watching torture porn"? How often do people turn vegan for the rest of their life after watching gore vs how many become convinced that the solution is "humane farming".
I kinda agree TBH. This stuff works on some but generally only if they’re already considering veganism. I’m a much bigger fan of trying to convince people around the health and environmental arguments for veganism. I went vegan for those reasons and I’m gonna stay vegan for the ethical reasons.
This stuff works on some
Then it's serving its intended purpose very well. Which is why it pains me to see so much concern-trolling in this thread about how these kinds of videos are bad or counterproductive as one tactic for getting people to reconsider animal consumption.
This stuff works on some but generally only if they’re already considering veganism
Ikr. It would be interesting to see how often the conclusion people come to is "we need to give the animals a good life and kill humanely" instead of "we need to tear down animal farming practices".
The doc that really changed my mind was the Cowspiracy because the environmental implications are actually pretty profound. The ethical stuff is hard to buy into until you buy into the premise that we never ever need to eat animal products.
Ethical reasons is the only reason that stands in the end tbh. People can stop having emotional reactions to gore, there are other diets that are good for the environment and when it comes to health people are very diverse. Ethics is also the hardest thing to argue lol.
I don't remember the particular video right now but "what qualities does a non-human animal lacks that if it was a human you would justify killing and eating them" was a very life changing conclusion to hear. But I can't say I remember the gore I was tricked into watching anymore.
There are animal-based diets that are better for the environment than veganism?
Someone who only eats meat they catch and doesn’t eat eggs or dairy is more ethical and environmentally friendly than your average lacto/ovo vegetarian I think that’s what gay is referring to. There are gradations and I try to give people credit for the little steps they take while also demonstrating that veganism a great way to live. Cmon vegan comrades let’s have some unity.
I was thinking from a dumpster diving angle but I guess your example works too.
Wait you called me gay I'm gonna piss myself laughing.
cant vegans like leave me alone fuck stop. I respect them for what they do, please stop evangelizing down my throat.
cant leftists like leave me alone fuck stop. I respect them for what they do, please stop evangelizing down my throat.
