one thing most any leftist will say about china despite supporting the country is that they're a very traditionalist culture, and so LGBTQ issues in particular are a blight on leftist westerner's otherwise positive view of china.
upon scrolling thru rednote, i think that's bullshit now. i really don't think you're worse off being LGBTQ in china than you are in america. yeah, you can't get married, but that right is under constant threat of being taken away in the US anyway and let's be real- it probably will be taken away. meanwhile, china is making progress on that front, the US wants to regress.
i saw multiple LGBTQ people on rednote. i saw a lesbian couple, one of the girls even said "LGBT is completely normal in china now, especially in the cities. even the older generations who might not accept it mind their own business". can that be said about america? how many queer people here have been accosted by some boomer who couldn't mind their own business? i saw the gayest fucking dude i've ever seen in my life (that's a compliment). he was also wearing makeup and sassily singing along with destiny's child. completely comfortable in his skin and with his identity, and while all of the comments and his speaking were in mandarin that i couldn't understand, you can tell by the vibe it was all positive. meanwhile in progressive america, if you're a guy who wants to put on makeup and go live on tiktok you're gonna face all sorts of homophobia and bigotry.
one of the few things western liberals could really say about china, that even those of us who are left wing and pro china thought to be at least somewhat true, appears to just straight up not be true.
I’ve seen a lot of people arguing that trans people push gender transition on children. Many citing English speaking news media to justify their claims.
I was watching this show in the hostel I'm staying at. My Chinese friends explained to me that the show was cancelled after the first episode was aired because the two male leads could be construed as being in a relationship. To be clear there is nothing overtly gay, they are just two attractive men who care about each other and who do not have any female love interests in the show.
When I remarked how ridiculous that was I got push back from two women who told me that it is wrong to expose children to the idea of being gay. I continued to say they were being ridiculous and that China can do better than that.
If Rednote is widespread enough in the next few days, the Supreme Court is going to overturn the Tiktok ban instantly. Mark my words.
I have some questions on LGBT content in Chinese webcomics, since English-speaking yuri communities always bring this up when they bash China:
1: what exactly happened to Tamen de Gushi? The story I always hear is that the CCP banned the webcomic because they showed the characters kiss.
2: I noticed some Chinese webcomics (specifically Straight Girl Trap and I Got a Girlfriend From a Shooting Star), whenever the characters kiss, would draw white spots/ have convenient light rays covering where the lips touch. For me it feels weird since these stories already have the characters in an official romantic relationship. Why do kisses get covered even when they have no issue showing a same-sex relationship in the same comic?The App is not really a good standard in gauging the sentiment nor the policies of the whole country.
The understanding of systematic discrimination is abysmal for the common people especially in Guangzhou in my personal experience.
Can you give some details about what the abysmal systemic discrimination is?
Mainland people would often state that systemic discrimination is not a thing since there are 55 recognized minorities which have certain privileges. Two of the most contentious one that Han Chinese people would state are: The one child policy and the fact that minorities need lower scores to pass the standard test to get into universities. However, the first one is not a privilege no more since the One child policy is no longer a thing. As for the lower scores for entry exams, there is a caviat attached to the fact that education is often pegged to there you are born and since the reform and opening up, regions where minorities live are underfunded to the point that if you don’t perform above average in a B-tier high school, your score for entry is going to be affected to the point the free credit you get will not tip the scale on your favour.
One of the most flagrant systematic discrimination is in the rental market in my city. Some local region will often ask landlord to do extra check up on rentors’ background that is not done on local people (aka Han). It is often applied to minorities from special regions (read Xinjiang) or permanent residents (a lot of them in my cities are from Africa). Since my city has a lot of human movement it is a easy market for landlord to pick the rentors, it is often done by picking people who demands the least paperwork needed barring people from having access to rentals (their excuses are most likely a matter of convenience). You can see the effects of this kind of behaviour since there is an area of the city called Little Africa which is de facto a ghetto.
Of course, you can probably drag the landlords in court for discrimination to court and might win (if you have money, level of education and language proficiency), but the might issues still persists, why some local municipalities require background checks for certain individuals in the first place.
Oh sorry I thought you were saying systemic discrimination against LGBTQ people, is that not what you were talking about?
Can you describe what you mean by a ghetto? What are the conditions, etc?
I was talking discrimination in general. Sorry
There are some improvements in same-sex union within the legal dimension (still no wedding). Even with more progressive laws passed, the problem with China is mostly the difficulty to implement laws in a systematic way and with uniformity. There was a new regarding some people unable to sign up for legal union as a same-sex couple because the local bureaucrat basically said it is not a thing.
These incidents tend to happen more in the inland which happens to be economically disadvantaged. I think there is an implication that the driving force for LGBTQ+ rights in China tends to happen in more urban and more developed (read richer) areas and the main obstacle is the inequality within the country.
Generally people don’t give a damn about what you do in private, but you won’t see LGBT stuff on mainstream media etc.
Sometimes there are some subtly implied relationships but nowhere near as liberal as you’d see in the West. Chinese censorship is very strict (many TV shows had to be re-written because the censorship does not approve certain parts in them) and it has gotten worse since Covid because of a lot of racist propaganda against China.
My personal experience has been that LGBT spaces have regressed since Covid, but we’ll see what happens after Biden.
see what happens after Biden
Think I'm missing something, why would the US president affect China on this issue? The GOP less prone to "rainbow washing" style propaganda?
Up until 2019 there had been quite a flourishing community of LGBT content creators, mostly on bilibili (Chinese Youtube), I can’t speak for the other platforms like Douyin though because I’m not into the kind of brainrot apps lol.
Anyway, Covid happened and there were a lot of anti-China racism from Western countries. Then Biden came into office and ramped out the hostilities against China (sanctions and crossing red lines far more severe than Trump had ever done). Most of the LGBT contents on bilibili also conveniently disappeared since (or have been 限流 which means your content is hidden from the search algorithm), so that’s why I said we’re seeing a regression here. In general, there has been a rise in anti-American/anti-LGBT sentiment (both are tightly connected) far more than I’ve seen in the 2010s.
Now that Trump is returning, there is expectation that the US-China relationship will warm again. Wall Street investment banks e.g. Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase, Morgan Stanley etc. just released their year end reports for their clients that have been bullish on China and expecting the Chinese A-shares to rally after Trump gets into office. Surely the Wall Street ghouls know something we don’t. I’ve also seen similar sentiment on Chinese media so we’ll have to see what happens then. It’s only 3 days away. Who knows what Trump will do but I expect there will be negotiations on tariffs and both sides will reach an agreement that allows them to claim victory on their sides.
Anyway, my point is that if China opens up to the US again, the anti-American/anti-LGBT sentiment could lessen with the easing tension between both countries.
Thing is, do you have a big section of the party making conscious efforts to put policy in place to hurt LGTBQ, and that being like half of their campaign, and constant media attacks from reactionary media against LGBTQ? That's what we have in the west, whether Republicans in the US and their associate media or far right in western Europe
Can’t say for the party because we never know how they really think, but there is no real animosity against LGBTQ people except in terms of Western LGBT “propaganda” and Western NGOs that promote “human rights” and “democracy” that they see as a form of Western cultural imperialism (which is why China went to great lengths with the firewall - it was never fully effective because if you really want, you can just VPN out of it, but it did a pretty good job of preserving Chinese culture and its traditional values within its cultural spaces instead of being diluted by Western culture as we’ve seen in many other countries).
I have said before that LGBT rights will most likely come from domestic grassroots movements as it should, but currently it’s still dominated by Western-brained libs who came back from overseas and attempting to emulate Western LGBT movement. As an example, as a collective society it’ll be hard pressed to see any kind of pride parade/celebration in China (although some of the libs did try lol) as that’d be seen as promoting individualism/rights of certain subset of the demographics. Instead, it strives to create equality for all groups of people without prioritizing on any particular group. In other words, advances in LGBT rights will take on a different form than what you’d expect from a Westerner’s perspective.
Thanks for your perspective, comrade, it's really valuable having you in Hexbear, I appreciate your contributions a lot, especially in the news community <3
The most substantial predudice I've seen on xhs has been antisemitism, which was surprising due to how few Jewish people live in China
There's no indigenous Antisemitism in China all of that shit you see online is imported from shitty english speaking edgelords who learnt it off 4chan
Not sure about xiaohongshu cos I don’t use it (ironic I know lol, too bourgeois/lib for me), but I think the most common on Chinese social media is casual racism against Indians.
It’s one of the few things I really dislike about the Chinese social media spaces.
Racism against Indians is mostly geopolitical. Most of the stuff that they point out on India are: the people are dirty, full of slums and full of pollutions
Chinese chauvinists really need to remember how bad the inequality when liberalization happened in the 90s and it is not dissimilar to nowadays India (and how some of the shit we throw at India still persist in the least developed area of China). Sometime it is helpful to think twice before spitting into the air.
I live in the west and the anti-indian sentiment is rolled in with local racist stereotypes. I've seen content of white settlers and Chinese people jointly complaining that capital cities have turned into 'little India'. If I see another xhs user call an Indian person A3 istg
I saw this post and gotta say the comments really irked me
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The most anti-Semitic comments i have seen boils down to:
“Jews earned a country because they are a smart race, i admire them because they control everything and they can survive in a land surrounded by barbarians. I wish more Chinese are like Jews”
Which is not a statement that is rare, especially in the open and reform nouveau riche people
Unfortunately, having a genocide streamed live by assholes claiming to be the sole true representatives of all Jewish people has had a serious effect in places that don't have exposure to actual Jewish people.
If someone's reaction to the genocide in Gaza is "Hitler was right and the Holocaust wasn't enough", I doubt their antisemitism stems from a principled opposition to genocide.
That's true. I wonder if their exposure to that is just shitty 2000s 4chan memes or if there's a deeper analysis here. I can't imagine the CPC is keep on tolerating any Fascist apologia.
Also Chinese
are still 
Seeing a lot of pics that wouldn't be out of place on a "anti-woke" youtube channel.
On the topic, I just came across an informative post here outlining proper lgbtq terms in Chinese:
[EDIT: Removed link because link tracker bot is threatening to delete my post, and I have no idea how to change the link and have it still work. I give up. Can we maybe add Xiaohongshu to a whitelist or something? Seems like this bot is preventing any links from that site being posted.]
EDIT 2: http://xhslink.com/a/CQUBvMecxdX3 apparently comments don’t actually get removed, so here’s the link.
I can’t copy and paste text from there on mobile so here are screenshots:
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the "human monster" is probably better translated as 'human shapechanger/monster/curse'. the word was first attested in this story compendium from the 1800s. theres a lot of stories relating to this word but essentially theres something about a snake turning into a woman and being a sort of sexual predator, a woman transitioning to male to rise in station, etc. theres a theme of 'yin and yang dont mix' or whatever which is pretty silly considering theres a bit of yin in yang and vice versa.
usually its seen as insulting as the word 'sh&m%le'. theres a weird sexual connotation to it. its often used to refer to thai l/*/*ys
I saw an independent poll from China once that I wished I’d saved which highlighted the nuance of the issue and the bullshit nature of polls. So grain of salt, this is my rough memory.
It had a question like “what is your opinion on homosexuality?” Slim majority negative
“What is your opinion of homosexuality in people you don’t know” overwhelmingly answered “none of my business”
“Would you be happy if your child was homosexual?” Large majority no.
But here’s the kicker there was a question “would you prefer your child be single, childless and heterosexual or married, have children and homosexual?” Overwhelmingly the latter option.
Like even if there’s homophobia it has different material roots and manifestations than it does in the west.
But here’s the kicker there was a question “would you prefer your child be single, childless and heterosexual or married, have children and homosexual?” Overwhelmingly the latter option.
Chinese homophobia is rooted in the gay couple not being able to sire children. It isn't similar to Abrahamic homophobia at all. They easily chose the second option because to be childless is to be an outcast while to have children is to be a full member of Chinese society. They probably would choose the second option even if their kid is married but the couple has undergone sterilization because they don't want kids.
For the married part, did they mean “in a heterosexual marriage but homosexual “? Since from my understanding homosexual marriages aren’t legal in China?
Sorry I'm going from memory it might have been partnered or something else not explicitly married. Meaning in a long term monogamous homosexual relationship with kids.
i can confirm this, i know a trans woman who was pressured into getting with a cis lesbian by family so they could have kids. they didnt care that it looked gay they just wanted kids, and the assumption with most gay relationships is there will be no children. many families dont even care if theyre adopted its all about growing the family for their very frequent gatherings. lesbian relationships are generally more accepted because of things like IVF and sperm donors.
also the secret to finding trans women on most chinese social media is to search for the fishcake swirl emoji https://emojipedia.org/fish-cake-with-swirl
also the secret to finding trans women on most chinese social media is to search for the fishcake swirl emoji https://emojipedia.org/fish-cake-with-swirl
Ah, I see the trans Debian user stereotype transcends borders and languages.
Kind of misguided and wrong, but also wholesome in a way... Trans acceptance with Chinese characteristics? 🤷♀️
Also, the swirl cake things is adorable, figures that those would be one of my favorite things in ramen lol.
Apparently the #le tag is very popular but has been censored in the past. Now they also have #wuhluhwuh. Half my explore page is queer content so it hasn’t been censored for me thus far. Far from, I just keep getting pushed more of it.
I remember when my chinese language partner sent me a little text she wrote in English about her home city Chengdu. There was a line in there about the city's culture where she said that in Chengdu, "you will often see homosexuals holding hands!"
She 100% meant this as a positive thing btw, she's a total sweetheart.
Folks look at this, the homosexuals are walking down the streets of Chengdu in the middle of the night holding hands, look at them they feel so safe, tremendously safe. What does that leave them? Serenity.
There’s an excellent Trump impersonator on there that’s doing Mandarin lessons and lifestyle content, speaking Mandarin in the Trump accent.
Chengdu has a (positive) reputation of being China's most queer-friendly city, I guess she was drawing attention to that?
Yeah that's for sure what she meant, just phrased it in a funny way
in Chengdu, "you will often see homosexuals holding hands!"
Haha, that's cute.
The phrasing reminds me of visiting my now-wife in the tier-3 city in the midwestern US where she lived at the time — apparently you would not often see homosexuals holding hands there, as evidenced by this other queer girl who got so excited to see us holding hands that she yelled "equality!!!" at us as we walked past holding hands, then seemed super embarrassed about the outburst and sheepishly added "me too" and gave us a thumbs up. Wholesome and memorable tbh
I remember an old coworker from Texas saying this about his first trip to San Francisco, but in a very confused way. He said he wasn't homophobic, but he was blown away that there are places where this was possible to do in public lol.
XHS is a platform dominated by young urban liberal women and isn't going to be particularly representative of Chinese society as a whole.
Like I don't think it's showing lies or anything, queer people can and do live safely and openly in China's cities, but the app might not show realities of rural conservatism, or the fact that homophobia is still very common within family units if not in broader society. Just something to be aware of.
i get your point but this random 45 year old man married to a muslim woman also has a different perspective
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I'm gonna be racist, it's not a governmental issue, Asians just don't get violent about stupid shit.
The structure of White hate is:
- 1/3 of whites intensely seethingly hate XYZ
- white institutions SOMETIMES pass laws in response outlawing hate against XYZ (after dragging their feet for multiple decades/centuries)
- the law is rarely enforced but whites will point to it as evidence that they're "more progressive" than other races while Black people get lynched in the year 2023
The structure of Asian hate is:
- nobody cares
this goes back as far as the bronze age, where despite having the EARLIEST documented transgender woman, european culture were the least permissive of it. most other major cultures had "third genders", especially Indian/East Asian/CaribbeanAfrican ones. The transgender fossil was in a Polish Corded Ware grave, and thus pretty close to modern Europeans
Blame the romans for the strict patriarchal definition of gender.
#notalleuropeans
Ancient Norse myths and poetry suggest some sort of trans-gender or maybe third gender. For example if a woman were to take on a man's role (I e. warrior) she could be seen as a man. There was also stigmas against "men acting as women" but it's less clear what that means. Does it mean men being bottoms? Probably not because there's artwork depicting group sex and man on man love. Some historians suggest the stigma is for a man getting pregnant, a la Loki birthing Fenris, but it's unclear how that actually occurred in society. Women in men's roles has much more archaeological and poetic evidence.
the loss of worship of the original, warrior Ishtar doomed the euros
Just wanna add that China's a really big country so I'm sure there's a lot of degrees to it the same as there is in the US, but all we have as outsiders looking towards China is kind of a vague notion that is painted for us by mainstream media narratives which generally skew towards portraying old fashioned or bigoted attitudes, which clashes with the specific community that we can see and interact with on internet melting pots like what XHS has suddenly turned into.
But I guess what I'm saying is that if it were America, we would know that there's a big cultural difference between the Deep South and the Northeast, California and Texas, etc. We know that the culture and politics in general are a reactionary backlash right now, and that parts of the LGBT community (especially trans comrades in conservative areas) are worse off now than they were five years ago.
But all of that subtlety of understanding is lost when looking at China unless you really study it or you grew up immersed in it or you live and immerse yourself in it for long enough to pick up on them. So while seeing progressive Chinese people on XHS does give me warm fuzzies and hopefully push my own perception of Chinese LGBT attitudes towards a more correct understanding, I also try to keep in mind that I'm only looking at a small section of a very big picture.
edit: To use an example in reverse, imagine a Chinese person on TikTok seeing all of the pro-Palestinian sentiment and concluding that Americans are very pro-Palestine.
