Millions of Leaked Police Files Detail Suffocating Surveillance of China’s Uyghur Minority
theintercept.com
Invasive digital monitoring and community informants drive a system all too ready to classify Muslims in Ürümqi as extremists and terrorists.

I genuinely went to read this in good faith since it's The Intercept (I know it's not great, but it's not CNN) but decided to do a quick text search for Zenz just to make sure. And of course, the whole fucking thing is full of Zenz.

This is just ridiculous at this point. I really don't want to be a genocide-denier if there is actually one happening, but for fuck's sake this is just ridiculous, LET ME SEE ONE REPORT ON THIS WITHOUT ZENZ ALL OVER IT.

        • ComradeBongwater [he/him]
          ·
          4 years ago

          Lmao this is verbatim what the libs are gonna say to us in a few years as we walk into our first deradicalization hearings

          Edit: Don't get me wrong, I'll defend China on it. Just kinda spooky realizing this China narrative is 100% gonna be used as justification to reeducate labor organizers.

        • englesintheoutfield [they/them]
          ·
          4 years ago

          but... are they all terrorists? who's definition of terrorism are we relying on? what process do they have to argue they're not terrorists?

          • richietozier4 [he/him]
            ·
            4 years ago

            well, its more going after people in poor material conditions to help them learn how to integrate, get a job, while still allowing to practice their culture. By keeping them out of poor material conditions, they prevent terrorism

            • TheOldRazzleDazzle [he/him]
              ·
              4 years ago

              2-3 years in detention and intentionally reducing practice of Islam as a key goal is not allowing people to practice their culture.

              It is a shitty situation that didn't start with the CCP--it starts with the Qing genociding an entire Buddhist ethnic group and then promoting Han settler colonialism in the area ~250 years ago--but CCP has a bad track record of figuring out how to productively engage with non-assimilated ethnic minorities, and this is a continuation of that.

                • space_comrade [he/him]
                  ·
                  4 years ago

                  This one was always weird to me, what's the big deal regarding the name? Why is it a big deal for either side how they refer to the party?

                  Not trolling just geniunely curious since I've seen people react like you did occasionally.

              • grisbajskulor [he/him]
                ·
                4 years ago

                I imagine it's also somewhat analogous to Cuba, where despite the economic revolution, remnants of anti-black racism is still prevalent. Much better than before, of course, but still there. (As I understand it)

                • TheOldRazzleDazzle [he/him]
                  ·
                  4 years ago

                  China is a technocratic country that leads the world on scientific innovation. Which is great, but it leads to a lot of trickle down soft (or with the Uyghurs, often kind of blatant) bigotry towards disenfranchised minorities who seem "backward," religiously "superstitious," or otherwise unassimilated into modern society.

                  Would you say the situation in Cuba a bit like Brazil, where there's not exactly racism the way there is in the US, but still lots of colorism and classism tied to white European privilege?

                  • grisbajskulor [he/him]
                    ·
                    4 years ago

                    Just to be clear, I am completely uninformed on this point. I'm pretty much just repeating some bits of info I heard on Revleft radio.

                    My general sense is that racism is not stamped out by socialism. It is a cultural issue that is very distinct from economic issues (and to claim otherwise IMO would be one of the few times 'class reductionist' actually makes sense). That said, socialism is its best antidote. Racism is supported by capitalism, black people in America are by and large still suffering from generational cyclical poverty and discrimination by society & the state, which we materialists understand is exactly what leads to crime. When class lines are blurred or wiped out completely I believe racism will slowly die out or diminish. That general idea is all I could really apply to Brazil.

            • keki_ya [none/use name]
              ·
              4 years ago

              I personally don’t agree with China’s approach, but how exactly are you supposed to get a bunch of 22-year old men to learn marketable skills without forcefully enrolling them in jobs programs? If you do nothing, many won’t enroll and will get left behind only speaking one language, and Xinjiang will stay poor. If you force them to learn Chinese and stay overnight at schools/camps, well then you’re putting people there against their will, potentially erasing their culture and violating them. Seems like a difficult situation

              • CatherineTheSoSo [any]
                ·
                4 years ago

                This sounds so strange to me. People all around the world including in socialist and religious countries pay good money and/or study to get education. What's wrong with those people that they have to be physically forced to get marketable skills? That just sounds like a failure to use available economic levers.

                  • CatherineTheSoSo [any]
                    ·
                    4 years ago

                    I dunno. My rural relatives here in Russia have all the opportunities to engage in subsistence farming. Their parents and grandparents have been doing it their whole lives and have plenty to teach about farming. They've inherited more than enough land and it's hilariously cheap to buy. The healthcare and education are free. Yet they jumped at opportunity to do shitty physically demanding jobs that pay like $200 a month instead of farming potatoes without using any machinery as my grandparents used to do just twenty years ago.

                  • kegel_dialectic [he/him]
                    ·
                    4 years ago

                    Yeah I hear sustenance farming was great for the elderly and disabled. Do they deserve commodities? Workers have to produce surplus if society cares about non-workers.

            • TheOldRazzleDazzle [he/him]
              ·
              4 years ago

              The leaked records in the article work out to 10% of all children in the region cited having one or more parent in detention.

                • TheOldRazzleDazzle [he/him]
                  ·
                  4 years ago

                  This is a long article and I read bits and pieces, but did they say anywhere that they got the document from Zenz? Seems like they aren't afraid to align themselves with him, so why not put that right at the top? Either way, 50+ gigabytes of government records isn't an easy thing to fake, and presumably they have their own staff members employed to at least spot check the translations.

                  It is kind of odd that they didn't post the Chinese originals along with the English translations, I will certainly give you that.

    • RowPin [they/them]
      ·
      4 years ago

      These arguments would be more convincing if they weren't always immediately followed by "and America does THIS, so there." (Or conflating the American government with Americans.)

    • TheCaconym [any]
      ·
      4 years ago

      It is for their own good

      Sorry, but that's a disgusting take. Putting people into "re-education camps" against their will to try and make them forgo their religion is completely unacceptable and goes against basic human rights.

        • TheCaconym [any]
          ·
          4 years ago

          I've seen at least 3 testimonies that said they were preventing some of them from praying (in the camps in question I mean), for example. I've seen no obvious reason to say they're lying / CIA plants or something.

          Also, what the fuck is that picture ? who are these people (not trolling, genuinely asking; because if they're indeed uyghurs that's totally unacceptable) ?

          Please remember too that China still has a crazy number of Mosques, far more per-capita than pretty much any Western country.

          That's a good point, I'll admit. Though "far more" is not true I think; just did a quick calculation and both my own country (France) and Germany have slightly more mosques per capita than China - though the difference with China is not really statistically significant.

          • Huldra [they/them, it/its]
            ·
            4 years ago

            Testimonies are not evidence, especially not when it is backed by the west who has a massive history of atrocity propaganda. There are active secessionist movements in the area and a lot of the time people will repeat what they have already heard from others as fact.

          • keki_ya [none/use name]
            ·
            4 years ago

            Those are likely prisoners in that photo. It’s common practice in prisons all around the world to blindfold prisoners during transportation

            • TheCaconym [any]
              ·
              4 years ago

              Those are likely prisoners in that photo

              That was my assumption too when it was first published, yeah.

              It’s common practice in prisons all around the world to blindfold prisoners during transportation

              Not really ? not in my country, not in the EU in general at least. Again, shaving the heads of prisoners, putting them like this on the ground, and blindfolding them is absolutely not OK (though we're talking about a country that also still has the death penalty, mind you, another human rights violation).

              Critical support for China of course, but I refuse to close my eyes to their numerous human rights violation.

              • keki_ya [none/use name]
                ·
                4 years ago

                Oh I thought many countries did that. I know my country does. I agree with everything else you wrote, China has a lot of backward legal practices, like banning drugs also

            • TheCaconym [any]
              ·
              4 years ago

              If you think shaving the heads of prisoners, putting them like this on the ground, and blindfolding them is OK then I'm not sure what to tell you. As for them being "regular" prisoners, that's what I suspected too when the photo first came up, thanks.

              Testimonies are worth dirt, frankly.

              Not really ? though I'll admit trying to get to the bottom of what's happening with the Uyghurs in China is hell - so much disinformation, so much of it connected to that shithead Zenz. To my eyes something really bad (though clearly not genocide, but cultural erasure ? maybe) is happening, but I can't be sure and I'd really like to be able to actually find out more with certainty.

              • Huldra [they/them, it/its]
                ·
                4 years ago

                Testimonies are the go to method of spreading atrocity propaganda specifically because "I don't see a reason to think they are lying or CIA plants", its something used against every enemy of the west constantly 24/7 to create this miasma of "This country is evil and must be opposed".

                • TheCaconym [any]
                  ·
                  4 years ago

                  Right, sorry if I overreacted a bit. Moreover, if you have actual reliable sources about the Uyghurs thing in general I'll take them.

              • OgdenTO [he/him]
                ·
                4 years ago

                Super hot take - Zenz is a Chinese agent meant to disrupt the discussion on the detention program.

                • TheCaconym [any]
                  ·
                  4 years ago

                  Nah, he checks all the boxes for an US disinformation campaign.