uhh can anyone debunk this if it isn't true, or clarify if this is some dengist thing
Labour Minister Marta Elena Feito said the list of authorised industries had expanded from 127 to more than 2,000.
Only a minority of industries would be reserved for the state, she said.
From a Richard Wolf video it seemed like they were opening themselves up to private co-ops more than anything else, but I don't remember any specifics of it.
Also there was a Cuban Anarchist who said this was basically to remove the black market that exists so that they can regulate/control it better.
Small businesses have been operating in Cuba for a while now. Most Cubans have a side job or side business alongside their “main job”. I think this move just legitimizes the informal economy that exists alongside the state economy. Not really a big deal as the media is making it out to be unless someone wants to correct me.
There were some articles I was reading on Cuban cooperatives which the state is trying to push as a form of middle ground for their economy. So I hope Cuba at least moves to a more market socialist economy in the near future to continue their development.
It's not a socialist economy if it's doing the same things capitalist economies are doing lol
im imagining a world where apps like uber exist but the only cut from the courier's labor is whatever is required to develop and maintain the app/infrastructure. non-profit uber. it would be great, and an excellent service job. drivers could be making bank if companies like grub hub and uber weren't, well, companies
Ah yes its got a bunch of homeless jobless people without healthcare dying of covid like its capitalist neighbor.
My real question is.
If a REAL communist society managed to spring up. How long would the US wait to nuke it? So many leftist people i see dont think about how the US and capital will react (and interact/interfere). Not just physically but with spies and propaganda and embargoes.
Its almost like we were trained from birth to have some sort of automatic reaction to certain places and groups and leftism doesnt automatically remove brainworms.
Ah yes its got a bunch of homeless jobless people without healthcare dying of covid like its capitalist neighbor.
There is plenty of poverty in Cuba and there are plenty of capitalist countries that do far better in terms of healthcare and overall living standards. Of course, it isn't a fair comparison because these countries have gotten much richer via imperialism and, well, not getting embargoed and bullied. However you are explaining why they failed, which doesn't show they didn't fail. They did. It's mostly not their fault, but they did.
Ah, they want to tax people side hustles, get a piece of the action haha
sauce on the cuban anarchist?
it's also interesting, the dual currency situation in Cuba. Lot of fascinating ethnography on that subject.
It seems like Cuba changed a lot over time. Right after the revolution, there were executions of thousands of anarchists. I'd have to have been on the island in the beginning, but right now it sounds a lot better than places i've lived in my life, jeez
Well put. A state in prolonged economic warfare with the worldwide empire is going to have to make a lot of complex and difficult decisions.
We need to end the blockade (said economic warfare), N.O.W!
Cuba was never socialist. They are moving from a misguided inefficient form of capitalism to a proven efficient form of capitalism. This is good for the Cuban people, but the move itself is irrelevant as far as socialism is concerned.
Love to make jokes about abuse. Guess the "woke" facade drops when people who can actually smell ur bullshit come in.
All discussion of 'woke' aside it would be pretty suspect for a Marxist to deride any discussion of the commodity form as something 'purely imaginary' that 'haunts' an individuals psyche. Why do you think Marx spends so much time in the beginning of Capital about the appearance of the commodity? Yeah its not real in the sense of an actualized, material thing, but things can and do emerge out of relations. So what actually is your point?
Honestly this whole thread is filled with dumpster-tier thinking that is just memes, and pointing at meaningless signs. So very few have even attempted at answering as to what actually is happening / how this changes things, and even fewer as to how this applies to anything. As materialists we should be concerned with the mechanics of society, not be reduced to mere petty arguments about 'good' versus 'bad'--as if being 'Left' is a subculture.
Wait ur username of a pedophile isnt ironic? Stalin fucked a 13 year old when he was 40.
cope even harder. Imagine im a blonde blue eyed imperialist billionaire if it makes you feel better.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/932/122/2bd.png
no one cares about the irish, not sure what youre trying to get out of this
Its more like Im entertaining you. I have no idea why a random irishman is being triggered about my accurate assessment of "AESC"
All your ‘assessment’ has amounted to is historically ignorant drivel that treats Marxism as a dogma rather than an continuously evolving guide to action based upon material conditions.
The arguments we are having now are the same arguments Marx was having with other socialists of his time. It's exceedingly clear you haven't read Marx if you think what I'm saying is "dogma". If socialism is simply what China or Cuba or NK is doing, or if they are on "the path to socialism", then what even is the contribution of Marx? Socialists were calling for "worker ownership" before Marx was even born.
And?
For someone who harps incessantly about analysis your posts are utterly vapid.
Yes, there were arguments about it in Marx’s times, arguments about it when Lenin instituted the NEP and arguments about it in the numerous universities today in Cuba and China where many people study for Doctorates in Marxism like any other science.
Can you meaningfully explain why Cuba’s or China’s method of building socialism is inherently invalid or will you rave in vagaries forever?
Can you meaningfully explain why Cuba’s or China’s method of building socialism is inherently invalid or will you rave in vagaries forever?
They are capitalist states and have been for decades lmfao. They had a shitty inefficient capitalist system that they gleefully called socialism and now they are moving towards the kind of capitalism all other countries have. The "build productive forces" thing is a meme. It's a euphemism for just plain capitalist development. There is no way to say whether they will move to socialism or not, but socialism is a movement of the working class. China is a country that prevents the formation of independent unions, they have the same pattern of divergence between productivity and wages. The working class is not in power in China. The fact that the govt intervenes sometimes in favor of the working class doesnt mean anything other than that China is a social democracy, like Norway.
The end result of this "build productive forces" nonsense is that you have to actively support capitalism. It is the same opportunist bullshit that workers fought against and lost in the USSR, when the Soviets were disarmed and worker revolts violently suppressed.
They are capitalist states and have been for decades lmfao. They had a shitty inefficient capitalist system that they gleefully called socialism and now they are moving towards the kind of capitalism all other countries have
I’m going to graciously ignore how you answered my inquiry of ‘why do you think these places are capitalists’ with what essentially amounts to ‘because they are capitalist’ tautology. About the level of discourse I’d expect from someone who indignantly states it’s clear I’ve never read Marx. I’m going to use Cuba as the example in the following argument, but much of its content applies to China and the Soviet Union.
Cuba had a revolution against a CIA backed puppet with a golden telephone as a gift from AT&T for being such a good lapdog. Without partaking in imperialist exploitation, Fidel Castros government engaged in agrarian land reform, expropriation of the bourgeoisie, campaigns in literacy, medicine and electrification, taking a population that was largely bound in virtual plantation serfdom with endemic foot parasites to a country that would exceed the United States in several metrics of health, such as HIV prevention and birth care.
Cuba would quite literally dispatch military units to assist in revolutionary activity in Africa, directly fighting against imperialist hegemony there and while it can no longer engage in open warfare it still sends tens of thousands of doctors as a method to help their fellow countries.
If you cannot distinguish between a capitalist, imperialist state such the USA or any in Europe and one that explicitly offers it’s (again, previously illiterate) citizens education along Marxist lines which is a perquisite to achieving socialism, actively fights against Imperialism and builds actual means of production to be socialized because it still retains aspects of capitalism as a necessary expedient when under siege then I can’t help you. Maybe you should try reading Marx.
"Ive read Marx!!" "Also explain why Cuba is capitalist"
You haven't read Marx. Cuba has wage labor, capital, money, commodity-production, profit, exploitation etc. Worst part is that because of the epic meme of "state ownership=socialism", prices dont even reflect labor content. In capitalism we say that workers dont receive their "full wage" because the capitalist pockets some of it. This only makes sense because the price reflects the labor content of products, due to competition, SNLT is a thing. When prices dont even reflect labor content and is purely fictional like in Cuba or NK, the exploitation is even more opaque than under capitalism. So Cuba moving towards normal capitalism from state capitalism is a good thing.
It doesnt matter how much charity a govt does or how anti-imperialist they are. Socialism is not defined by those things.
You haven’t read Marx. Cuba has wage labor, capital, money, commodity-production, profit, exploitation etc.
So Cuba moving towards normal capitalism from state capitalism is a good thing.
It doesnt matter how much charity a govt does or how anti-imperialist they are. Socialism is not defined by those things.
Turning illiterate peasants into literate workers and providing them with socialist education to produce a class conscious working class does not constitute validly developing socialism which inherently requires a politically conscious working class, apparently.
Terminal case of infantile disorder.
Socialism is when you educate people. Also good job ignoring literally everything in that post
what, telling people to read books you yourself haven’t read, will do to a mf
Please read Marx, I'm begging you to read Marx instead of posturing that you have.
i have, im saying you are the one posturing. imagine acting like kant isn’t relevant to an understanding of hegel and marx’s usage of dialectics. and also zizek is a materialist lmfaooo, a main thesis of his is that hegel was one also btw
This is beyond cringe. It was funny 2 years ago when it was used against chuds. Now it's just "this guy hurt my feelings"
Never was is a huge overstatement but they definitely looking to capitalism since the 90s
Nope, they were never socialist. Can you define socialism for me? Because if your definition of socialism is "state owns capital", then yes it is socialist, but no Marxist would call it socialist.
lmfao cope, they are telling you to read lenin so you know their working definition of what a socialist state is.
According to Lenin, the socialist state must abolish the police, the burueacracy, the standing army and replace them all with Soviets and worker militias. Please read Lenin.
I'm sorry for being such a white imperialist Amerikkkan leftkkkom ultra
while fidel is no doubt great, that doesn't mean people embrace communism. lots of reactionary russians stan stalin.
I wish I could remember the podcast where I heard someone who had gone to Cuba and interviewed people, but lots of Cubans were saying "I dunno about this Communism, but I love Fidel"
how many communal toothbrushes do the population have access to in total?
Hot take: if the embargo against Cuba either ended by the 1970s or never existed at all, Cuba would likely be a smaller version of China by now.
Vietnam is probably a more apt comparison.
I was more going for the angle of the allowance of private (perhaps non-worker controlled) businesses to have a presence in the country.
It's one thing to allow a private sector, it's another to be run by private the private sector. I think some form of a private sector is going to be inevitable for any AES state that exists under capitalist global hegemony. How else are you supposed to interface with the global economy?
That being said, if a there isn't a strong enforcement of labor rights and development of labor unions in tandem with that allowance, it's a bad sign. It's easier to trake over a private business of the workforce is organized into a union that friendly to the party.
All Actually Existing Socialist states have been at least a little Dengist for a while now.
Except for the DPRK :juche: of course.
Even the DPRK has some contracting with outside companies for mineral mining I think. It's just the natural thing to do without the trading bloc, organization, support, etc. with the Soviet Union. Implementing socialism will require surviving in the current capitalist world and more future revolutions and socialist movements to appear to reduce the stress that socialist countries face from global capitalism. Better to have socialists remain in power with a partially or mostly capitalist economy than have capitalist wreckers undo all the progress of the revolution using propaganda and terror.
Fidel spoke about this when he talked about China while he was alive
"I think China is a socialist country, and Vietnam is a socialist nation as well. And they insist that they have introduced all the necessary reforms in order to motivate national development and to continue seeking the objectives of socialism.
"There are no fully pure regimes or systems. In Cuba, for instance, we have many forms of private property. We have hundreds of thousands of farm owners. In some cases they own up to 110 acres. In Europe they would be considered large landholders. Practically all Cubans own their own home and, what is more, we welcome foreign investment. But that does not mean Cuba has stopped being socialist.
Try not to use Google AMP links, comrade! I think there is a Firefox extension that cleans urls but I don't remember which because I use DuckDuckGo https://duckduckgo.com instead of Google which I really recommend btw both for privacy and for degoogling your life
Sorry, yeah I can’t stand google amp shit but it seems like it’s everywhere and hard to avoid.
I mean, not that I disagree with you, but there is a Russian saying: "People outside of a burning building have a better view of the fire".
This "wEll YoU dON't LiVE tHEre!!!" line isn't really a very compelling argument.
Yeah but the firefighter starts out standing outside the building.
IDK I guess like all analogies this one has limitations.
Does Fidel Castro count as a true leftist?
"I think China is a socialist country, and Vietnam is a socialist nation as well. And they insist that they have introduced all the necessary reforms in order to motivate national development and to continue seeking the objectives of socialism.
"There are no fully pure regimes or systems. In Cuba, for instance, we have many forms of private property. We have hundreds of thousands of farm owners. In some cases they own up to 110 acres. In Europe they would be considered large landholders. Practically all Cubans own their own home and, what is more, we welcome foreign investment. But that does not mean Cuba has stopped being socialist
Capitalism with open markets and competition is better than capitalism with state ownership, made up prices and closed markets, aka "AESC" .
yes that is why china’s gdp growth has been so inefficient compared to USA
We're talking about Cuba, I know reading is hard, but try to keep up. No one here is even dumb enough to think that China is "socialist" in the same sense as Cuba. What was China's GDP growth like when they had an economic model similar to Cuba during Mao?
According to this x-post from the other day,
From 2017, a new constitution was written, also from the bottom up, which recognised same sex marriage and private businesses, which is ultimately better because they are now regulated.
so I assume it’s true.
For me, i have no reason to believe it wasn’t a pretty democratic process, also that only Cubans know what’s best for Cuba, so I just hope it works out.
Yeah, this has been in the works for a while. I’m thinking there have been people in the party who have wanted to move this direction since Fidel died.
they're not 'just another capitalist hell', obvs they still provide doctors for like the entire southern hemisphere but I no longer have a surplus of hope for them, and they're no longer a relatively-shiny beacon of socialism.
well, there's plenty of support for China here, and they have far more private business than Cuba ever will right? Alibaba alone, I mean jeez. This, it seems is just to take advantage of US tourists being able to come now that Biden is president and the regulations will be relaxed again, post-covid vaccine rollout.
i think the prc is a vile piece of shit imperialist stain on the world map since dengism, and I question whether it's any less awful than the american empire. I certainly don't think it's worse, but I do not think it is a good place.
I often question whether China, Russia, etc. could manage to be truly imperialst of they wanted to. Like the U.S has both countries almost completely surrounded by propped up western puppet states.
Yes I forgot about that part of Lenin’s Imperialism where he talks about how imperialism is when countries are big.
oh they're better and tend to move with a softer less anvilicious hand than the west, but they are. if you want to to deny that, I want some of your drugs.
unless youve spent hours obsessively learning about china and its system please shut the fuck up, us people with a special interest in China's economic and political system are laughing at you
ive spent a lot of time learning about capitalism, yes. I don't love maoism, but I have a certain grudging respect, and I've taken some important lessons from it that are very dear to me. I mourn its loss in its homeland.
Huh, interesting. I didn't realize there were people on the board that had this point of view, I was downvoted to hell on another account months ago for questioning the party's narrative around some parts of Chinese history. People were very...well, from my perspective, they were defensive.
South Korea and Singapore brought people out of poverty faster.
If the validity of a viewpoint is dependent on the accomplishments of those who hold it, then the capitalist class must be right, considering that all economic development has happened under capitalist rule, including in the AESC.
Also what accomplishments have AESC done that capitalist states have not better? In terms of wealth, life expectancy, scientific advancement, etc.
wtf im a capitalist now since they achieved everything (including defeating the Nazis because the USSR was capitalist)
Just wanna say I love your posts purely because I finally get to see arguments from a non-ML standpoint
It would also have been interesting to see ML counter-arguments to a leftcom position. Unfortunately all we got was PPB and shit-talking. Too bad.
That kind of rhetoric may be moving, but it should be equally moving for you when Taiwan and SK ended famine and hunger within 2 decades, or when Botswana became of the most developed nations in Africa due to their free market reforms. What's the difference between those countries and China/Cuba other than the red flags and socialist rhetoric? Why not champion those countries and their economic systems for achieving the same thing? You are simply desperate to find a "winning" team and that's why you latch on to these countries.
Praxis is when you elect a government that claims to be developing socialism for 60 years and then implements free market reforms.
You say you’re a leftcom, but you’re standing for right wing regimes pretty hard in this thread. 🤔
Speaking facts is not "standing for right wing". All economic development so far has happened under capitalism. The concept of using China's development as a victory of socialism is absurd. Any liberal with a brain would laugh at any leftist trying to use China as an example of socialism.
lmfaooooooooooooooooo
just because you affirm your interpretation of the state of affairs as fact doesn’t mean it isn’t still just your interpretation of the state of affairs. what a weak fucking argument you have when you have to just affirm your view as if it was just a “fact of reality” as you say. as if reality isn’t structured by our ideologies. read kant and zizek
read kant and zizek
No thanks, I'm a materialist. Read Marx.
South Korea
That place that was essentially rebuilt with the help of the West in order to project western power next to North Korea? You don't say.
So SK would never have been able to develop without the West? Is that your thesis, that the orientals can only develop with Western aid? Did Singapore receive any aid? SK developed becuase of their industrial policy, strong state support of local capital, rule of law, and export oriented growth like China.
Glad to see we agree. There are too many delusional leftoids who think China is socialist or will be socialist, or that China's development is due to socialism. Im not even sure why people stan China.
What an ignorant, you shouldn't talk about things you know nothing about. Besides, I can feel your clear bias, Western saviour complex, imperialism, chauvinism and racism.
Chinese people learn about communism since they are kids; the members of the party are required to learn about Marxism and do analysis every week. But here you are, you clearly know more than them, Western man.
I doubt you have ever been in China, and I doubt even more that know how to speak Chinese, yet here you are, talking shit about things you know nothing about.
I live in China, and know how to speak Chinese. This country is not perfect, there are many things that need to improve, but you know what? I know precisely because of communism, in China the state cares about its citizens; in China the state ultimately rules for the people, and not the corporations. The handling of the COVID is the best example of this: since the beginning of the pandemic the Chinese state used all his resources to save as many people as it could, even if it meant sacrificing the country's economy. Western regimes, on the other hand, keep continuously edging between trying to enact meaningless measures, and keeping the economy afloat, ultimately achieving nothing. This is just an example among many others. When you live here you notice how many socialist programs there are, and how many things are only possible here because of the communist nature of the state — a state that cares about people, and not a burgeoisie state that cares about corporations.
I imagine you want an example of the mentioned above, I will give you: I'm China the price of public transportation is ridiculously low, and allows you to go almost everywhere, even remote villages (I know well because my girlfriend is from one). The prices of public transportation clearly don't cover it's costs, it's clearly not profitable, yet there it is. And I will say it again: even to remote villages.
Now, if you are wondering what Xi thinks about the future of communism in China: http://www.qstheory.cn/dukan/qs/2019-04/01/c_1124307480.htm
I imagine you can't read it, which just proves what I already imagined: you are a western leftist chauvinist that opens his mouth to talk about things we knows nothing about. You are fucking disgusting.
Again, China is not a perfect country, and as a communist, I'm not happy with many things myself. But acting like Chinese know nothing about communism, but you, a Westerner that learned about communism yesterday, do; that's just not right. Also, saying the success of China is not because of communism, ayy lmao, what a fucking tool you are. According to your logic then India should have long reached, and surpassed China, India is a capitalist democracy, yet the differences between both states are clear.
With the shit you wrote you only proved how much of an ignorant western chauvinist you are. I hope next time you don't know shit about other countries, you keep your mouth closed, although I know it's hard for you, Westerners.
Nice wall of text. Cant see any evidence that China is anything but a capitalist country tho.
Communism is not when people learn about communism. Communism is not when "government is benevolent". Communism is not when development happens. Your understanding of socialism is completely fucked and anti-Marxist.
Nice nothing burger. Are there any communist countries in the world currently? Communism can't be immediately achieved, not when the international bourgeoisie still dominate the world. Having a party, and a state whose ultimately goal is achieving communism is better than nothing, however. Read the article I posted.
Ah yes the classic excuse of "they are on the path to socialism". Must feel great to have the main thesis of your worldview be an unfalsifiable claim. Don't have to do any kind of analysis at all, just wait for 2050. I suggest you read Marx.
Nice assumption that Chinese communists don't do any analysis. Must feel great to spend your day raging about other countries you know nothing about on the internet, while you are doing nothing to change yours. Keep doing the bidding for Western imperialism. I suggest you to read the article I posted. Also, read Marx.
oh no im doing a heckin imperialism by stating basic facts. Imperialism isnt when people point out your capitalist state is capitalist.
Reminds me of the racists talking about black crime statistics in the US. According to them, they are also talking about "facts", nothing racist about it. This is similar but with imperialism.
Honestly, you should consider the current cold war climate, and analyse if vehemently try to turn leftist against a country that — like it or not — is doing good to the world (offering free vaccines to African countries, investing in them, sharing knowledge...), and is opposing the biggest oppressor, and war criminals that has ever existed (the US), is appropriate or not. If you can't, I will tell you: you are being a tool.
Btw, can't wait to see your incoming communist state, you surely will teach everyone how communism is done. Raging about other countries you know nothing about is sure helping, huh.
Saying China isn't socialist doesn't make someone racist, what an odd take.
Reminds me of the racists talking about black crime statistics in the US. According to them, they are also talking about “facts”, nothing racist about it.
Amazing logic.
Honestly, you should consider the current cold war climate, and analyse if vehemently try to turn leftist against a country that — like it or not — is doing good to the world (offering free vaccines to African countries, investing in them, sharing knowledge…), and is opposing the biggest oppressor, and war criminals that has ever existed (the US), is appropriate or not. If you can’t, I will tell you: you are being a tool.
Critizing China for not being socialist is imperialist and supporting USA? Just admit youre a Chinese nationalist who is hurt when people shittalk your country.
Btw, can’t wait to see your incoming communist state, you surely will teach everyone how communism is done. Raging about other countries you know nothing about is sure helping, huh.
Yep, this is pure nationalist bullshit. I don't even give a fuck about China, I just want to set the facts straight.
Critizing China for not being socialist is imperialist and supporting USA?
Love how you ignore everything I wrote. I will give you a simple example: someone is being unfairly targeted, and there are many lies being said about them; the intent of this is basically destroying that persons life. There is a group of people that don't think that person is bad, but are still influenced by what they hear about that person from others. Suddenly, someone in that group starts to talk shit about the person that was being targeted, thus adding more wood to the fire.
This situation is the same, like or not you participating in imperialism. Moreover, your "criticism" comes from a position of ignorance, and knowing nothing about the country you are criticising. Not to mention, that by your definition, has any country truly been communist? Is there currently any? Also, you say I'm making excuses by saying that communism can't be achieved while the international bourgeoisie rules the world. Did you learned anything about the Paris commune at all?
Chinese nationalist who is hurt when people shittalk your country.
Oh yes, I'm a Spanish native, Chinese nationalist with Arab characteristics. If thinking I'm a butthurt Chinese national, instead of someone that knows more about China, and disagrees with you helps you sleep at night, you go.
pure nationalist bullshit
How does that has anything to do with nationalism? I wrote that because you are the one that is continuously showing that you know how to do communism right.
China will be destroyed when communists say that it is not a communist country. Good point.
India only opened up to Neoliberalism in the 90s which was decades after China. Of course it hasn't achieved as much. There isn't anywhere for India to go right now than up (as far as the line goes anyway). But I'm not here to defend India. Repeatedly calling someone names makes you look childish. Not to mention, nothing @leftcompride wrote (that I've read so far or the comment you're replying to) seemed to involve any 'western savior complex' or 'imperialism' or 'chauvinism' or 'racism'. I don't like that they used 'leftoid' as a word, I'm not defending them or their opinion.I have a feeling they're not really a chapo anyways. But you are being needlessly aggressive.
seemed to involve any ‘western savior complex’ or ‘imperialism’ or ‘chauvinism’ or ‘racism’.
His comments are a clear assumption that "Chinese don't know better", and "Chinese don't know about communism". Apparently, years of Chinese Marxist analysis are wrong, and they need this Western ultimate leftist to tell them they got it wrong, and how to do things well. Pretty racist imo.
But you are being needlessly aggressive
I'm just really tired of seeing people talking about things they don't know. The current sinophobic climate in the West doesn't help too. Also, I feel he is an useful idiot doing the bidding for Western imperialism.
Its not exploiting capitalism, jesus christ. It's the workers who are exploited. Nazi germany also dominated capital, to the point where they completely subjugated finance capital and forced the bourg to finance a suicidal war.
I’m still optimistic that we’ll see a more forward approach towards true socialism as economic dominance and security is achieved.
I'm optimistic that I can still grow taller at 30 and that Beyonce will leave Jay-Z for me.
Socialism is when you dominate capitalists (still an unfounded claim given that there more billionaires in China than USA). Critical support to AESC ofDemocratic Kampuchea
