Shit like this really fucks with me. If people here, who came to a website explicitly ML, who believe in everything from wage slavery to reparations to abolishment of all borders, still side with "fuck off, animal slavery is fine" over "enslavement is cruel" then what's the fucking point?
29 upvotes for "fuck off" in response to "lets stop exploitation."
leftist website
Could've fooled me.
Honestly imagining a VCJ member walking in and promptly walking out after seeing the true hostility for "don't torture living beings" as a sentiment here.
Other tankie (now) vegan checking in. Mad respect for my anarchist comrades.
sucks seeing leftists make the same dumb arguments any right-winger would
I wish the site would at least get to 'veganism is morally correct but I haven't made it there yet', anything else is embarrassing
It honestly feels like there's way more anti-vegan sentiment on this site than there used to be. Not just in the last 2 days but preceding it as well, I'm not sure what happened but it's dissapointing
I think it's a combination of vegans getting tired of refuting the same things over and over, simply asking people not to do animal cruelty, and carnists emboldened seeing people pile-on with these ridiculous rationalizations.
We're too poor, it's our culture, it's unhealthy, it's not necessary, etc. All arguing for a continuation of a practice that almost anyone that sees it can understand is unethical. And often arguing in defense of an imagined infringed group, not themselves.
It's tiring and it's got me tired. I've seen a number of vegan users voice that they left the site because they're tired too, so I get it.
Every time this site remembers vegans exist, it becomes indistinguishable from Reddit.
Which is funny considering we're trying to offer VCJ an alternative to it.
We just need to bully the libs harder. If all the vegans join, we’ll just push out the carnies.
The best part is when they use an imagined impoverished Chinese person as a deflection point to call animal rights bourgeoise.
We need to stay because if we leave, the site continues to fall into this weird pit.
It's only until we are the majority, we keep bringing people who actually understand ethics here, that we turn the tide and begin convincing others.
I think a lot of people reading these threads came out of it very confused at how this site could possibly side with, "I really don't care about any cruelty whatsoever," and that leads to critical introspection.
the thing I love the most about when they point to an impoverished person in another country is that it's saying "well, animals can't be liberated there yet due to these legitimate circumstances," and then I nod, agreeing, until they basically say "so it's classist and bourgeoise to try to do it anywhere else."
yes, thank you. that includes all the vegetarians. the dairy industry is arguably worse than the meat industry and vegetarian support doesn't mean shit
Preach!
meat and dairy and eggs all do the same horrible things.
CW WARNING FOR SEXUAL AND OTHER VIOLENCE ANIMALS - THEY HAVE SUBJECTIVITY TOO!
CW WARNING HERE
dairy: farmers fist anuses of cows to hold their cervixes whilst artificially inseminating and violating them.
dairy: farmers violently kill calves at birth to cut costs. or farmers steal them from their mothers and raise them for three months for veal
eggs: blend male chicks alive in industrial blenders called macerators
and so so so so so so so so so much more
for real. vegetarianism is a cope. anyone who says "I don't eat meat because I love animals too much" and then gnaws down on some cheese is absolutely Full Of Shit
Need a vegan and bloodmouth tag so we can root out those virtue signaling their cognitive dissonance and lack of empathy
E:Hit delete instead of edit twice, lack of protein I'm sure
TIL Mao Zedong was very much a carnivore and suffered from (at times severe) bloating because of it
vegans are right yet again
I must have explained that four times over today only to be met with "you're being racist, shut up."
It's amazing.
I think what he's trying to say is that people on this site are already aggro as hell to vegans, and will take anything out of context if it helps their side. if these people can't get the idea that all animals are equal to human animals, then making this kind of comparison is just going to go over their heads and give them even more fuel to call us racist or idealist or some other shit
Most people don’t see animals as being even remotely similar to humans when it comes to the rights they get
Vegans do, and we're the ones making the argument. Thinking that we're trying to punch down on black people instead of trying to elevate animals to "not deserving of murder and oppression" is just bad faith
I get why black people are uncomfortable with the experience of their ancestors being compared to animals.
And there is a more cerebral/spiritual aspect of slavery that I don't think animals can fully comprehend even if they do suffer and feel pain and fear.
But at the end of the day I don't think it's regulating black people or their ancestors to a comparable and lowly position of animals, but raising animals up to a position much closer to all of us.yeah the people putting up that argument are fuckin vegans, they see animals on an equal level to human beings.
it's still a pretty weird, definitely at least verging in problematic way of making the analogy when you look at animals as just something for humans to eat, use, or entertain themselves with, but the entire thing with being a vegan is that they don't look at animals as below people at all.
so people who are offended are like 'you're comparing people to a fuckin farm animal' are right, in that those people are making that comparison, if they look at animals like something to be farmed, but vegans are like 'i'm saying that animals are not something to be farmed' and so they're not empathetic to the idea that it's racist to compare people to animals, because they look at animals as equal to people.
you've basically laid it out better than i've seen anyone lay it out.
Exactly. To not consider what we do to the animals we factory farm in cages so small they cannot turn around their entire lives to be slavery is to not really grasp what slavery is.
It's fun to wake up in the morning and see bloodmouths in my mentions with shit-tier takes, but I can't respond to them because the thread is locked :angery:
Ah well, teaches me not to log off during a struggle session I guess.
Everyone has biases and blindspots, but it’s disheartening to see how little moral consideration leftists grant to other sentient beings just because they’re not human.
Yeah this shit was gnarly. Veganism is definitely correct morally and not everyone is there yet. It’s not a big deal to admit this if you’re not vegan yet, just own it and do your best.
yeah I'm working on removing my last few non-vegan things from my diet,
but my issue is just expanding my diet beyond stirfry and salads and roasted veggies and soups.
if you need some articles to convince you to take the final leap, let us know. lord knows we have plenty. but in the meantime, vegan butter/cheese/sour cream/etc etc etc all exists and is pretty good
I'll be honest, cheese is not there in my book. I'm still exploring, but I haven't found a good alternative yet.
yogurt and butter are easy tho.
https://itdoesnttastelikechicken.com/the-best-vegan-mozzarella/ this one is dope
ah, maybe not. I have a little local shop that has vegan cheese that's pretty good, but that just may be a rarity. regardless tho, there are so many great recipes out there without the need for substitutes anyway
I'm just going to latch onto this comment to ask for advice. I'm vegetarian and likely will go vegan. One of my barriers is that my partner likes to work out, and therefore needs a decent amount of protein, but she's allergic to nuts, and it seems like a lot of plant-based protein options are nut based. I'm not just asking about how to make sure you get enough protein without nuts, but also about relatively easy/convenient options (or, I guess, things that you can prepare ahead of time that need minimal prep at the time you actually eat them) to replace like nut-based protein bars and shit like that.
There are tons of great vegan protein sources, comrade, unfortunately a lot of them are nuts or seeds. My go tos are lentils, beans , and nutritional yeast. You might need to swap out a protein bar for a rice bowl, but they keep for quite a while if you can prepare them in advance.
GHOST Vegan Powder has been working well for me if you can get it; peanut butter kind is good, and it's pea protein
Would've posted in the_dunk_tank I guess, but I figured it would be locked there. It's just extremely upsetting, this site is supposed to be the good one.
Yeah, this site is over and honestly, socialism is probably dead. I made the point in several of the threads, if you're not willing to make the relatively painless sacrifice of giving up your pork chops, you're definitely not ready for the sacrifices inherent in a revolution and the establishment of a socialist society. I'm pretty disillusioned right now.
If you think a niche website of (predominantly) anonymous members is indicative or representative of anything, it's probably a good time to log off.
These are purported leftists, not even the general public. If this is the "left"; calling everyone with a different opinion a white imperialist and stamping your feet with your fingers in your ear when someone makes an argument you can't logically challenge, then the movement is dead.
If those 60 people are to be believed they're all third worlders whose only access to protein is dog meat and I'm a white devil colonizer (despite being of indigenous descent) for wanting them to starve.
There's billions of people in an international leftist movement!?
I mean the logic doesn't matter much if people don't agree on the fundamental intuition that animals are part of the moral community.
Being a moralising debate nerd isn't going to really help animal liberation.
No animal is going to sacrifice themselves for the cause of socialism. Veganism is not a prerequisite for socialist organisation.
At best a socialist society would require us radically changing our relationship with the production of food. But I have a hard time imagining that would ever translate into a society that is completely vegan.
All my experiences outside of this website in regards to stuff like this is more or less similar. Not as bad, but still pretty bad. If people can't change one small component of their fucking diet they aren't going to be changing society any time.
Maybe it's the benefit of living in a liberal, coastal city, but here it's the "veganism is dumb" remarks that get dirty looks. When I went through my meatless phase, I never got more than an, "oh, okay."
What a tiring sequence of events.
Truth will prevail of course. :vegan-edge:
Just keep educating.
