Hi all,
Throughout the last few days there has been an uptick in arguments and turbulence throughout our site. This comes right at a time where we are onboarding new communities that are in danger of being banned by Reddit.
During this, we've seen that it would be beneficial to provide more clear communication around our decisions and stances on current issues. This post will be divided into two topics that have both come up: 1. BIPOC Comrades and Intersectionality and 2. Veganism
BIPOC Comrades and Intersectionality
We have an ongoing commitment to intersectionality. This will always be a continual process as we identify new opportunities for learning and process improvement.
Based on community feedback around BIPOC representation on the sitemod team, we have added two new sitemods who will bring additional BIPOC perspectives to the sitemod team.
While we had BIPOC comrades on the sitemod team previously, they made the understandable choice to not state this identifying information publicly and we support them in their decision. We will continue to increase BIPOC representation on the sitemod team over the coming weeks.
There have been concerns of implicit support of racism amongst the mod team. We hope that looking through the modlog will prove otherwise. Although we can't get to rule breaking comments or posts immediately, we will never tolerate racism on our site, we're sorry about this and wish we could do more. We encourage everyone to continue reporting rule-breaking comments and posts so that they are more visible to moderators.
To reiterate, any posts or comments that are exclusionary to our BIPOC comrades are against our Code Of Conduct and will be removed. Individuals should especially not appropriate comparisons that aren't from their culture. Do not use appropriative comparisons like:
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Do not use appropriative comparisons like chattel slavery or the holocaust if they are not from your culture.
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Implying indigenous people are barbaric/mentions of "assimilation" or "evolving" their culture. These phrases are outright xenophobic and have a long history as a dog-whistle for settler-colonialism. They are not allowed.
Our moderator team is made up of volunteers and works to remove reported content that violates our CoC as quickly as possible, but we are unfortunately not able to remove objectionable content instantaneously. Objectionable content remaining up following a report does not mean the moderation team endorses that content. We are continually working to build up the moderation team and number of volunteers.
Veganism
Hexbear is a platform for all leftist communities. As a part of this, we're partnering with a number of vegan communities on reddit who are migrating over to the site. The mods of these communities are intersectional and have a number of BIPOC comrades on their teams including indigenous comrades and we're excited to work with them.
For those unfamiliar with the concept, veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to eliminate as far as is possible and practicable all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals. Veganism is about absolute liberation of our exploited and commodified animal comrades. Veganism is not a diet, although not eating meat and animal products is a common extension of this philosophy.
We encourage vegans to post throughout the site. Our sitemod team is a mixture of vegans and non-vegans, as are the mods of the !food comm. The mods of that comm made the policy change of requiring pictures of meat to be marked nsfw following feedback from multiple comrades who were uncomfortable seeing meat pics. After examining feedback on this issue, the sitemod team has made the decision to support the !food mods agency as moderators.
The "NSFW" tag is very much a "catch all" at this point, although more specific content tags are planned for the future. We encourage all comrades passionate about helping us develop this feature to check out !hexbear@hexbear.net for how to get started with contributing.
Vegans are allowed to advocate for veganism, especially in their own comm. This doesn't constitute sectarianism, classism, racism, etc. and will not be actioned against as long as it does not break the site's code of conduct or a comm's rules.
As with any comm, individual posts and comments will need to be moderated. The diverse team of vegan mods already has experience navigating this from running large subreddits and will respond as these issues are reported. Bad faith generalizations of all vegans will not be tolerated, nor the delegitimization of trauma expressed by our vegan comrades.
In Conclusion
We appreciate the passion our community has for empowerment and intersectionality. As a team, we hope to consistently embody the communal standards we outline in our code of conduct. We feel these changes uphold our goals of intersectionality and left unity and will drive the site forward as a general, inclusive leftist space.
Thank you and viva la hexbear.
Please crack down on VCJ refugees being toxic outside of their own comm. You say in this post that vegans will be allowed to criticize non-vegans, and that's fine, but toxicity is not. If you foster a space where calling comrades "bloodmouth murderers and r*pists" is considered cool and good, the hostility of the past few days won't be going away.
I got your NAP right here *points to cozy spot with soft blankets*
i just dont understand what the point of this was. inviting /r/vegan over would be fine, but why invite a community that's out and proud of being toxic and shitty to people? like geez, who'd have thought that a subreddit known for shitting up other subreddits would immediately start shitting up this site once invited.
now the actual users of this site all feel pissed off and alienated, mods and admins exhausted to the point where like 3 are quitting and all we got out of it is a bunch of mean reddit weirdos
maybe in the future you could actually ask the fucking community what they think of inviting in new people, instead of making the decision for us and scolding us like usual
So claiming that non-vegans are not leftists/reactionaries/liberals is somehow not secretarianism?
Can I say, "All anarchists are liberals?" Is that cool now?
These people literally do not believe that they are my comrade, yet I am expected to believe that they are?
wtf that happened? If that's not reactionary I guess I don't know what reactionary means
It's clear wrecker shit, and the we should treat it like any other sectarianism we had to deal with.
veganism isnt a sect in the same way anarchism is so no pls dont say anarchists are liberals lol
Claiming that non-vegans aren't leftists is decidedly un-dialectical, detached from material reality, and reactionary.
Users who do this should be warned once then banned if they continue.
its not reactionary its just wrong. we dont ban people for being wrong (unless they are /u/adamsandler) or being annoying
its vegan shit its almost as if vegans are stereotypically annoying or something
It's wrecker shit, people have been banned for less, and just because "lol vegans are annoying" doesn't mean the users who do this should be allowed to be hostile on this site.
Also, "vegans are stereotypically annoying" is a pretty BS generalization when the majority vegans on this site since launch have been great comrades.
nobody is allowed to be hostile lol. report them or DM me a link and ill ban them if they are hostile
I'd be grateful if you did. That's not the direction moderation has gone in the past.
I responded to this comment on c/vegan
Nonvegans fuck off. Yes, you are reactionary if you’re not vegan.
with
Lenin
Reactionary!
Stalin
Reactionary!
Marx
Reactionary!
Mao
Reactionary!
Sankara
Reactionary!
Ho Chi Minh
Reactionary!
Fidel Castro
Reactionary!
Che Guevara
Reactionary!
lmao okay
My comment was removed and the comment I responded to is still up.
c/vegan is allowed to be as lib as they want in their own comm.
So, uhhh, why are we hosting a community that's anti-solidarity?
theyre not entirely anti-solidarity theyre just assholes about one thing and its not even all of them its just a few shitheads
100%.
Is there a reason we can't ban the people who do post and upbear explicitly anti-solidarity things like "If you're not a vegan you're a reactionary"?
we dont typically ban people for being wrong or annoying or jackasses
I feel like stuff like "everyone who's not a vegan is a reactionary" and, "the best way to convert nonvegans is to be horrible to them"
Violates the code of conduct pretty clearly namely the bits about sectarianism
Respect that people have differences of opinion and that every leftist has a place in our community. Discussing differences in theory is fine and encouraged, just don't make it personal. Remember: Sectarianism is liberalism.
and
Please be kind and courteous to your fellow leftists. There’s no need to be mean or rude unless it's a chud.
ill take a look more indepth tomorrow im spent for 2nite. no more vegan arguing outside of the comm anyways so just dont go there and who cares tbh
Big thank.
It's incredibly generous of you to donate your time and labour like this btw.
It can't be fun and I want you to know it's very much appreciated.
Hope you sleep well ❤️
dw this is much more bearable than thinking about having to work tomorrow
i literally quit my job 2 days ago but got a new already its a curse
Why are they on main then, being allowed to bait and antagonize as much as possible and then cite the online version of castle doctrine at people for getting upset?
they shouldnt be on main anymore just look at new featured post
vegan talk GONE its GONE no MORE
Ok thats good, one of the big things I hope for from this, thanks.
try and tell me how the definition of reactionary fits saying someones a nonleftist because they eat meat.
thats not what that word means
Calling someone a non leftist because they eat meat is so fucking deluded and moronic I’m not even going to entertain it. Pure unadulterated wrecker bullshit
i agree it is liberal bullshit but i dont think its wrecker bullshit seeing as you dont have to join the vegan comm at all
If it's allowed outside of c/vegan then it is absolutely wrecker bullshit.
This absolutely needs to be clarified in the main announcement post, if there isn't already a followup planned that will cover this.
if thats not the case already im going to fight to have it that way cuz i agree its bullshit and i really just dont gaf about this struggle sesh anymore
Doesn’t matter that I haven’t joined because I see it everywhere on the site. This wasn’t and issue until the wrecker community joined a week ago.
itll be contained to those boards moving forward. if i see any dang trespassers ill delete their posts
literally everyone involved (inlcuding myself) is annoying regarding this topic lol
okay you found the one actual group who is not being annoying in this situation, yes.
i just want food talk to be banned from the site at this point tbh
i mean its not a political ideology
i agree that saying nonvegans are liberals is really really annoying tho
are you kidding me? You're using a technicality to call it non-sectarian? In this very post you call it a philosophy. Anybody subscribed to any particular philosophy calling others on the site "non-leftists" because they don't subscribe to the same ideology is the very definition of sectarianism.
yeah a technicality as if we have a rule book for us to have loopholes. I didnt call it a philosophy anywhere either
For those unfamiliar with the concept, veganism is a philosophy from the official "statement" above. I'm assuming this means it's the official mod team stance.
sure im not the one that typed the post but ill go with that definition whatever
still does not make it sectarianism. at least not the sectarianism we give a shit about. it is not a political sect.
If the result is still the same, why should it matter? Both cases do nothing but further divide the community and cause constant conflict, and makes it difficult to have productive discussions between users.
If the results are practically exactly the same, but you only ban one and not the other you're essentially admitting that there is no real reason behind the one that's actually enforced.
there is real reason behind one and not the other because we want to foster a community for all political sects. It doesnt matter if you eat meat or not. If you wanna argue about other dumb bullshit then feel free. For this topic in particular you dont even have to see it because its restricted to /c/strugglesession and c/vegan anyways! just dont join those stinky ass comms full of stinklords
You completely missed the point. Yes, we want to foster a community of all political sects, but surely we want to foster a community of both vegans and non-vegans as well? Surely allowing sectarian language between vegans and non-vegans would be detrimental to that
sure thats why there wont be any more vegan posting outside of c/vegan and strugglesesh going forward so those annoying vegnerds can be annoying in their own space
Is sectarianism still banned in strugglesesh, as well as the various communities for different tendencies? If so, why is this treated differently? I do appreciate enforcing the rule to keep them arguments out of other communities, but as a matter of principle I want to know why they're being handled differently
struggle sesh is a little more lenient cuz if you go there you are a nerd who deserves to be bullied
Go ask the vegans if they agree that veganism is not political
if i cared about what vegans said id be vegan but also vegan arguing is no longer allowed outside of vegan and strugglesesh comm
:im-vegan: and it is political, i have no idea how anyone got the idea that it wasn't tbh
Vegans are allowed to criticize people for not being vegan
Cool can't wait to have to leave the site cause of comrades starting shit that makes my eating disorder super fucky.
Sure you can say that vEgAnIsM iS NoT a DiEt line as much as you want but that's literally the only aspect of it that ever gets brought up outside of the vegan comm, and giving people free license to bully comrades about it site-wide has pretty clear implications for comrades with eating disorders.
Edit in case it wasn't clear: This is a horrible fucking policy and should be removed, especially considering the behavior of the VCJ mods and posters at large.
Yeah I do not bring it up a lot, but veganism can be very difficult for ED survivors. It is so often a way to continue restricting, to evolve into Orthorexia, or to otherwise have an obsession with food. I’m sorry if this discourse has triggered you at all. Stay safe as you can be, feel free to reach out if you need anything
:heart-sickle:
I can link this comment to them later and see if they believe anything should be clarified or adjusted. There is a lot occurring right now in the modchat right now, and bringing it up at the moment may not get it any true attention.
Lmao like... two, three days ago? Not very far long ago!!! You can thank TC69 for it, she fully advocated for me to be one lol.
And also aw thank you that's very sweet. I hope you stick around.
Ofc! And like i said to OP, i sent it in a few minutes, instead of later, just so I would not forget. Discussion around the phrasing is occurring.
Thanks :heart-sickle:
Can you bring this up to the mod team at large? It's a really harmful rule and I'm super worried about the ramifications of it, especially considering how hostile things have been since VCJ posters started getting onboarded
Yes, sorry just commented this below too: I can link this comment to them later and see if they believe anything should be clarified or adjusted. There is a lot occurring right now in the modchat right now, and bringing it up at the moment may not get it any true attention.
Ofc! Also accidentally lied and just sent it in now befre I forgot just in case. :stalin-heart:
I’m not the overall rule maker. I don’t agree with 100% of the announcement either. But at large, this is what the admin team figured was a fair balance.
Solidarity from another person with an eating disorder, the discourse ™️ on this can be terrible for us.
:heart-sickle:
Oy. I think about veganism the way I think about Food Not Bombs.
Maybe you're vegan because you feel like it's compatible with your values as a socialist. Cool. But you would have a hard time arguing that veganism actually contributes to socialism. It would have to be a really tortured argument.
Likewise, I participate in Food Not Bombs because it appeals to my socialist sensibilities, not because I think giving away some food is actually building socialism. With this in mind, if someone isn't participating in Food Not Bombs I don't consider them anti-socialist.
Anyway, to get to my point, I thought the site was supposed to be about communism. Veganism is cool, but it's not communism. Why are we creating rules to specifically empower a group of folks that aren't even marginalized?
@Beans1101 should be demodded immediately, along with all of the mods from vegancirclejerk. All actions they performed as mods should be either reversed or reexamined by other mods. The behavior from these new mods has been completely unacceptable. I can list MANY more examples. The amount of racism that has been allowed to linger on this site is flat out disgusting. I may log off too if this shit doesn't stop soon.
EDIT: I have never had any significant problems with my vegan comrades until a week ago
yes, Demod all the refugees of VCJ, maybe a 90 day period where that could be reinstated, but this isn't their community to run roughshod over anyone they disagree with.
I'm not against them ever being modded, but right now it's very clear that they are unfit to be mods.
The word "evolve" there is so unfortunate. It implies that cultures can be superior or inferior to each other. Sure, there are elements of cultures that can be superior to elements of other cultures (like feminist cultural practices are superior when compared directly to oppressive, anti-feminist ones), but overall, cultures are just different. This sort of blanket condemnation leads to the destruction of perfectly fine parts of people's heritage that they have a right to.
I'll be a pedant but evolving has nothing to do with superiority or inferiority, mostly adaption
It may still be possible to bring in new users from circlejerk subs, but we have to make it clear to them that they have to leave the circlejerk mentality at the door. Basically, they might be good communities to convert, but are definitely not ok as-is.
I don't know how to tell you this, but r/CTH was a circle jerk sub lol
then it only makes sense we help other communities that are in a similar boat to us?
as well, if we can't handle onboarding a few militant vegans, are we really going to succeeded as a project? any aggression they bring is nothing compared to what the capitalist class will bear down on the left as we organize
lmaoooooo never seen a comment go 180 so fast. "we must swiftly dole out consequences, but also, it's just jokes!"
holy shit why would you make a bunch of circlejerk subredditors mods here
I'm really sad to see so many names I've known for months expressing their dismay at this response. I am also very disappointed in the events of the last week. This has not been an easy site to remain active on, but I've kept at it because I felt a sense of community forged in the opportunity of a new home online, built by the users and without the baggage of a hostile platform (and in the solidarity of singing l'internationale in a distorted mess several times a day.)
This is ugly. Even in our previous struggles I haven't seen the kind of vitriolic language at such a persistent level as I have in the last week. Absolutely none of this is working to advance the cause of leftism - and it sure as fuck isn't advancing the cause of creating a friendly and constructive space for ourselves and future comrades.
I have avoided taking too strong of a position on this, but seeing so many people I've come to know over the past few months leave, become disillusioned, or be banned while new users who are, as a whole, clearly single-minded and intransigent in their views are allowed to come here and act in an immediately and persistently hostile manner is very disheartening.
If the operators of this site want to build a functioning, pluralistic community, let alone something that can contribute towards the existentially imperative project of communism (imagine, a pipeline! What fancy!), this kind of division enabled by handling more "morally pure" interests, who have not demonstrated their commitment to the broader project, with kid gloves cannot be permitted.
I love my comrades and, as always, am willing to meet reconciliation with anyone, but this state cannot continue. If being a bloodmouth is cause for excommunication and pariahship, your movement will fail.
This is just... yikes.... Anti-racism and anti all kinds of oppression are absolutely inseparable from leftism and core to what we stand for. Pro-inescapable-vegan-assholism is not. To equate the two and blame both sides is a disgusting and hateful form of enlightened centrism that I am not willing to put up with. I am extremely disappointed. Goodbye for the time being.
Also, mods shouldn't do bits, at least certainly not bait
a couple mods posted antagonizing shit that just raised the temperature of the whole struggle, helping no one and hurting the credibility of the whole team
Make a fuckin alt for your shitty bait bits if you can't help yourself
Edit: I was mad when I wrote this and I could have chosen my words more carefully. They’re all volunteers, no one is there to do anything but their best and we need to encourage them to become better not lash out at them for not being there yet. Raise each other up and grow together not tear each other down for trying and failing.
This is good so far, but isn't proportionate with the level of racism and toxicity we've seen.
In addition to this, there should be:
I. A purge of racism ala transphobia, primarily focused on the recently on-boarded reddit people as they seem to be the element most responsible for this reactionary tide.
II. An end to any sort of official partnership or 'merging' with VCJ. People from reddit or anywhere else can be invited and judged on their own merits, but I'd rather not have this unmitigated deluge of reddit radlibs who are convinced they're leftists.
I. A purge of racism ala transphobia, primarily focused on the recently on-boarded reddit people as they seem to be the element most responsible for this reactionary tide.
I'm not under any delusion that my experience is the same as other users, but as a trans woman, the blatant racism I've seen on this site the past few days is way worse than anything I personally saw or experienced before the transphobia purge. I think what you suggested needs to happen ASAP.
we’re sorry about this and wish we could do more. We encourage everyone to continue reporting rule-breaking comments and posts so that they are more visible to moderators.
I think it's pretty clear they have no intention of anything retroactive at this point, or removing modship from some of the vcj folks
I'll give it until tomorrow and then I'm out, as sucky as it is there's no real alternative to this site.
There isn't, which is why I checked in tonight hoping for a sticky post, but I wasn't expecting this, kinda bummed
Yeah, this is just bullshit. Basically just letting some r*ddit dipshits take control of the site.
Fucking hell.
primarily focused on the recently on-boarded reddit people as they seem to be the element most responsible for this reactionary tide.
The racism/colonial mindset pre-dates the vcj people. It's not a new problem here. They certainly haven't helped though, and I def agree with another purge
I. A purge of racism ala transphobia, primarily focused on the recently on-boarded reddit people as they seem to be the element most responsible for this reactionary tide.
I've said this a few times now, but if the admins don't do this then they're sending the clear message that they consider BIPOC comrades less worthy of protection than Trans comrades.
I supported the transphobia purges out of solidarity with trans comrades, and as a POC whose community was recently victimized, it'd really suck if the admins sent that message right now.
All power and respect to the mods, but if mass purges of vegan reactionaries isn't on the table then I feel like y'all have been misreading the room. I think I'm out, at least for a hot second. Much love to all my comrades, I'll see you again someday. :stalin-heart:
Vegans are allowed to criticize people for not being vegan, especially in their own comm. This doesn’t constitute sectarianism, classism, racism, etc.
What exactly does sectarianism mean to the mod team? It is pretty clear this site is divided into sects on this issue, and inflaming that tension accomplishes absolutely nothing.
Like, I get that vegans really believe their belief system. I genuinely believe that Marxism-Leninism is a settled science. But constantly inflaming these disagreement makes this site unbearable.
