I think there should probably be some accountability for whoever was/were behind "the white cishet man vibes" part of the post, editing it out of the original post doesn't change that is was there, saying that shit was kinda fucked, as many people in the original post noted
Yeah carcosa stepping down makes things worse not better. The issue was in no way carcosa, in fact they made it much less bad than it could have been. The idea that carcosa steps down and those cowardly mods still get to run around behaving like gross bigots pisses me off.
Apparently this is why they are stepping down? I really disagree with that, people are conflating "trying to avoid more drama" with "working with nazis" in the other thread. I feel like I missed something there.
On top of that this is Carcosas reasoning for stepping down which is what motivated me to hammer home that they handled this situation as best as it possibly could be handled and they really should not step down for making mistakes, when the only mistake they've made is listen to those shitty mods.
People, me included, are mad because of the mod statement that was released about the closing down of the comms + The reasoning for closing down the comms. In a lot of ways it seems like this is the culmination of something that has been a long time coming and been unresolved for far too long - Some users think posting is praxis and that hexbear should be the headquarters of the revolutionary vanguard.
These users are dipshits that don't understand that most leftist orgs are also just fun places to hang out and shoot the shit. That's why people choose to volunteer for that kind of stuff - Because it is, in part, nice.
These dipshits furthermore think their treats are somehow less treatlike than the treats they dislike despite both treats being hexbear.
Finally they have a narc mindset.
Also they smell bad and they coat their shitty behaviour with leftist rhetoric so they can get away with it. Lots of talk about "chauvinism", "bigotry" and "toxicity" despite the previous thread being full of those very same people being incredibly hostile, dismissive, derisive, misgendering, ableist and a lot more. This isn't hypocrisy, because they don't actually care about bigotry, they just use it as an excuse to avoid self-reflection.
No you're on the money because it does not make sense. It's a lot easier to organize in places with people than it is in a barren desert.
On top of that I do not understand why people think we need to be productive on a website we visit for fun. This is not a place I go to create value. I am not here to work.
Trying to squeeze value out of casual discussion is lethal to casual discussion. It reminds me somewhat of Reddit’s attempt to monetize the website especially in the lead-up to their IPO.
I suppose Hexbear can be construed to serve a leftist purpose. That purpose is community and sanctuary. I don’t think it can or should be more than that, at least not in this space.
What? Yeah Carcosa said they lied, that tracks completely with what they're saying, I've already talked to this here
It doesn't make carcosa look duplicitous. It makes carcosa look like somebody who is trying to convince somebody to help them, it's pretty standard fare when you talk to someone who is hostile to you. I do it at work from time to time.
I no longer really trust Carcosa anymore because I find it hard to believe that anyone would think that other people, especially people hostile and distrustful of you like liberal and fascist admins of a shitty Reddit clone, would fall for such a transparent ruse. Hostile admins would automatically assume Carcosa is full of shit anyways on account of them being liberals and fascists hostile to Hexbear as a socialist website. And even if I can be made to trust Carcosa again, I certainly can no longer trust Carcosa's judgment. Like, based on what Carcosa said, they basically never bother running through this ruse with the other admins of this website. So Carcosa lied to other lemmy admins without telling the other Hexbear admins?
Frankly, I find that extraordinarily hard to believe. A much more sensible series of events is that the ruse was thought of and collectively decided upon by all the admins and Carcosa was made the emissary due to their reputation as "the reasonable Hexbearian" among the rest of the Fediverse. Carcosa saying it was all their idea and stepping down is Carcosa falling on their sword on behalf of the other admins so us unwashed sicko masses don't grab our pitchforks and blame the rest of the admins.
I no longer really trust Carcosa anymore because I find it hard to believe that anyone would think that other people, especially people hostile and distrustful of you like liberal and fascist admins of a shitty Reddit clone, would fall for such a transparent ruse.
That's fair. It's not nice to see someone you (used to) trust lying. I'm not trying to convince you and I don't think you're trying to convince me either, we're just sharing our thoughts.[1] I've personally been in similar situations wrt being the middleperson between a lot of groups and having to try to manage everything. It lead to me doing a lot of the same stuff.
I don't know if carcosa expected it to work, but I trust that carcosa hoped it would and that they ended up calculating that the positive outcome was worth risking the most negative outcome. I'm not saying it's a good thing to do, but I'm saying it's understandable and completely rational. Carcosa acknowledged their mistake and offered to step down, which I really do not think they should do. It was a mistake, but we all make mistakes.
No idea why I'm saying this, but I felt the need to. You're nice and I enjoy this interaction, thank you ↩︎
Fuck what a gutbuster, you got me again lol, I'm sincerely laughing out loud. This is also a good example of what I meant by "can't handle disagreement so has to invent something to get mad at" by the way
Seek a mental health professionals help please
Some users think posting is praxis and that hexbear should be the headquarters of the revolutionary vanguard.
no one is thinking that, no one is forcing you to make effortposts, if you want to just call someone dumb you have c/gossip for that, what we are merely doing is forbidding low-effort dunking on private people, which we think is toxic and boring
Especially when you are not being forced to be the mod of a comm and can simply not engage with or even see the content VIA THE INTENTIONAL DESIGN OF THE SITE.
Feels like we just had a struggle session over somebody getting annoyed that when they jumped in the pool, they got wet.
Fuck off you dork. I'm pretty obviously being hyperbolic to underline a point in that sentence.
You're still being a dismissive shitheel who fails to engage with the users who have put forth well-reasoned arguments for why dunking is not toxic. You continuing to repeat "it's toxic" like some fucked up parrot does not make it so.
If it's boring, maybe don't be a mod of the comm you massive dipshit. Just block it, it's actually really easy. There's tons of comms I don't interact with, because I don't find them interesting. You are a fantastic example of the attitude I'm talking about.
Now I'm gonna become the parrot and repeat myself, but it's pretty fucking telling that all the shitheels who cry about "toxicity in the dunk tank" have been massive assholes throughout this entire thing. If this was about toxicity, one would think you of all people would be less of a turd when you're interacting with other people, even people who dares to gasp disagree with you. Do some fucking self-crit you bug
edit: "we think" is obviously not everybody. Stop hiding behind a general vague group.
I did not engage with those arguments because i did not find them convincing, all they boil down to is that its cathartic and "fun", but i fail to see why the targets must be other common people for it to be cathartic and "fun"
If I go to work and my coworker is being a bigoted asshole conspiracy weirdo I am gonna vent about it when I get home to my partner.
I don’t care how much of a “common man” he is.
NOOO VENTING TO YOUR PARTNER ISN'T PRODUCTIVE YOU HAVE TO PRODUCE VALUE ALL THE TIME I AM A SOCIALIST AND YOU ARE WHITE AND CIS AND HET AND CHAUVINIST AND TOXIC
I think it’s clear that plenty of people here, evidently at least a plurality, find these posts to be cathartic and "fun", so why should you and a handful of people disagreeing have any impact on why people shouldn’t get to have catharsis and fun?
Essentially, why are you right other than you think you are?
The "targets" don't even know we're talking about them. In the off chance that someone sees a post on the comm and decides to go dunk on some fascist, I'd say it's deserved, we should not take any actions to protect fascists from having their feelings hurt.
Ah is this the fabled improved rhetoric? Or is this your idea of not being dismissive and toxic?
"I didn't engage with the arguments because I didn't agree with them"
Fuck off, seriously. Do some self crit.
"Oh I don't like this thing, so therefore it's not good." Narc mindset.
You're also changing your reasoning. Before it was that targeting non-powerful people "had no impact" lol. Now it' that you feel sorry for some chud who will never see us laughing at them?
Also you're presenting it as a "has to". It doesn't have to target "other common people", which is a very loaded phrasing, but it can.
What happened to it being unhealthy? Or do you realise how stupid that sounds, so you excluded it. That doesn't make sense though, since that would have required you engaged with the arguments.
Why are you modding the dunk tank? Why take the job if you hate it?
edit: If you can't even be arsed to put in basic effort when having an argument, how can you expect this site to be one that fosters effortposts?
Those may be people that say terrible things but that doesnt matter, if we dont know their identity, most likely they are just another prole and their words are just as inconsequential as mine or yours
How does removing the place where people go to do a thing, remove their ability to go to the place and do a thing? Are you 12? Children don't learn how action and consequence are linked until age 13. It would eplain a lot of your behaviour if you were a tween
Yeah, not really sure what has happened and as we are some of the most active posters, that worries me a little. Things seem to be blowing up and getting resolved while we're asleep.
Yeah lol the last thread about misogyny I had to bite my tongue not to blurt out "over half this site is queer! Maybe the problem isn't just the 10 cishet guys we keep as pets! Maybe you should look inwards you fucking dorks! Maybe you're the issue!"
queer people also aren't immune to misogyny brainworms unfortunately. I had some qualms about some details of that thread (if I'm thinking of the same one), but to say the mods are The Problem then as now...
I guess I'm just not sure i'm totally on board with the "shitty mod clique" thesis you're operating on. I think there are definitely some people operating more on vibes and their personal comfort, which sometimes results in bad analysis, but on the other hand, we want all sorts of marginalized people to be comfortable here, so its not like you can completely ignore those factors either.
But on the other hand, we want all sorts of marginalized people to be comfortable here, so its not like you can completely ignore those factors either.
I 100% agree! I tried to word this in such a way as to make it clear I do not disagree with that sentiment at all but I couldn't figure out a way to make it explicitly clear, without being clunky.
What I was trying to say was that there is a group of people who do not care about these issues they allege, but instead use them as an excuse to push thru changes they wish to see in the site, despite those changes being deeply unpopular. They can then say "oh it's only unpopular with bigots!" to avoid any critique.
agree, this was the thing that peeved me the most about the whole debacle honestly. also don't think carcosa needs to step down unless it's also for personal reasons.
For me what pissed me off, was an alt account of one of our users telling everyone to kill themselves if we disagreed with them because apparently we're just a bunch of chauvinistic white males...
I think there should probably be some accountability for whoever was/were behind "the white cishet man vibes" part of the post, editing it out of the original post doesn't change that is was there, saying that shit was kinda fucked, as many people in the original post noted
Yeah carcosa stepping down makes things worse not better. The issue was in no way carcosa, in fact they made it much less bad than it could have been. The idea that carcosa steps down and those cowardly mods still get to run around behaving like gross bigots pisses me off.
I still don't fully understand what is happening. I know I don't want @CARCOSA@hexbear.net to go though
Apparently this is why they are stepping down? I really disagree with that, people are conflating "trying to avoid more drama" with "working with nazis" in the other thread. I feel like I missed something there.
On top of that this is Carcosas reasoning for stepping down which is what motivated me to hammer home that they handled this situation as best as it possibly could be handled and they really should not step down for making mistakes, when the only mistake they've made is listen to those shitty mods.
People, me included, are mad because of the mod statement that was released about the closing down of the comms + The reasoning for closing down the comms. In a lot of ways it seems like this is the culmination of something that has been a long time coming and been unresolved for far too long - Some users think posting is praxis and that hexbear should be the headquarters of the revolutionary vanguard.
These users are dipshits that don't understand that most leftist orgs are also just fun places to hang out and shoot the shit. That's why people choose to volunteer for that kind of stuff - Because it is, in part, nice.
These dipshits furthermore think their treats are somehow less treatlike than the treats they dislike despite both treats being hexbear.
Finally they have a narc mindset.
Also they smell bad and they coat their shitty behaviour with leftist rhetoric so they can get away with it. Lots of talk about "chauvinism", "bigotry" and "toxicity" despite the previous thread being full of those very same people being incredibly hostile, dismissive, derisive, misgendering, ableist and a lot more. This isn't hypocrisy, because they don't actually care about bigotry, they just use it as an excuse to avoid self-reflection.
I don't understand why this place can't be both a place to help people organise and do productive stuff and be a fun place to shitpost.
I dunno, I am pretty dumb I guess.
No you're on the money because it does not make sense. It's a lot easier to organize in places with people than it is in a barren desert.
On top of that I do not understand why people think we need to be productive on a website we visit for fun. This is not a place I go to create value. I am not here to work.
Trying to squeeze value out of casual discussion is lethal to casual discussion. It reminds me somewhat of Reddit’s attempt to monetize the website especially in the lead-up to their IPO.
I suppose Hexbear can be construed to serve a leftist purpose. That purpose is community and sanctuary. I don’t think it can or should be more than that, at least not in this space.
No actually posting has to be productive. I don't know how it can be productive, but it better be. I have a healthy mindset about being online.
get back to the posting mines, soldier
Sorry I had to make vegan ice cream and then eat too much of it
Now Carcosa is saying that contrary to what the screenshot says, they lied to the other Lemmy admins.
If Carcosa is telling the truth, then it makes them look dumb and duplicitous for thinking other admins would fall for such an obvious ruse.
If Carcosa is lying, then it makes them look duplicitous and dumb because they are trying to weasel their way out of what the screenshot plainly says.
Given this, Carcosa is right to step down. How can anyone trust them anymore? I certainly don't trust them anymore.
What? Yeah Carcosa said they lied, that tracks completely with what they're saying, I've already talked to this here
It doesn't make carcosa look duplicitous. It makes carcosa look like somebody who is trying to convince somebody to help them, it's pretty standard fare when you talk to someone who is hostile to you. I do it at work from time to time.
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com put it pretty well here too
I no longer really trust Carcosa anymore because I find it hard to believe that anyone would think that other people, especially people hostile and distrustful of you like liberal and fascist admins of a shitty Reddit clone, would fall for such a transparent ruse. Hostile admins would automatically assume Carcosa is full of shit anyways on account of them being liberals and fascists hostile to Hexbear as a socialist website. And even if I can be made to trust Carcosa again, I certainly can no longer trust Carcosa's judgment. Like, based on what Carcosa said, they basically never bother running through this ruse with the other admins of this website. So Carcosa lied to other lemmy admins without telling the other Hexbear admins?
Frankly, I find that extraordinarily hard to believe. A much more sensible series of events is that the ruse was thought of and collectively decided upon by all the admins and Carcosa was made the emissary due to their reputation as "the reasonable Hexbearian" among the rest of the Fediverse. Carcosa saying it was all their idea and stepping down is Carcosa falling on their sword on behalf of the other admins so us unwashed sicko masses don't grab our pitchforks and blame the rest of the admins.
Whatever the case, what's done is done.
That's fair. It's not nice to see someone you (used to) trust lying. I'm not trying to convince you and I don't think you're trying to convince me either, we're just sharing our thoughts.[1] I've personally been in similar situations wrt being the middleperson between a lot of groups and having to try to manage everything. It lead to me doing a lot of the same stuff.
I don't know if carcosa expected it to work, but I trust that carcosa hoped it would and that they ended up calculating that the positive outcome was worth risking the most negative outcome. I'm not saying it's a good thing to do, but I'm saying it's understandable and completely rational. Carcosa acknowledged their mistake and offered to step down, which I really do not think they should do. It was a mistake, but we all make mistakes.
No idea why I'm saying this, but I felt the need to. You're nice and I enjoy this interaction, thank you ↩︎
Edit: I read wrong :(
It is? A "narc" is slang for a "narcotics cop". How is that related to neurodivergency?
Sorry, I thought you were saying it like "narcissistic mindset"
I'll edit my comment
No worries, I can understand the confusion if you don't know the slang. An to be honest it was hostile.
I appreciate you genuinely asking how it could be ableist and recognizing that it could be hostile even when I was misinterpreting you, comrade
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Fuck what a gutbuster, you got me again lol, I'm sincerely laughing out loud. This is also a good example of what I meant by "can't handle disagreement so has to invent something to get mad at" by the way
Seek a mental health professionals help please
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no one is thinking that, no one is forcing you to make effortposts, if you want to just call someone dumb you have c/gossip for that, what we are merely doing is forbidding low-effort dunking on private people, which we think is toxic and boring
Who exactly is "we", and why should what you think matter to the rest of us?
Especially when you are not being forced to be the mod of a comm and can simply not engage with or even see the content VIA THE INTENTIONAL DESIGN OF THE SITE.
Feels like we just had a struggle session over somebody getting annoyed that when they jumped in the pool, they got wet.
Fuck off you dork. I'm pretty obviously being hyperbolic to underline a point in that sentence.
You're still being a dismissive shitheel who fails to engage with the users who have put forth well-reasoned arguments for why dunking is not toxic. You continuing to repeat "it's toxic" like some fucked up parrot does not make it so.
If it's boring, maybe don't be a mod of the comm you massive dipshit. Just block it, it's actually really easy. There's tons of comms I don't interact with, because I don't find them interesting. You are a fantastic example of the attitude I'm talking about.
Now I'm gonna become the parrot and repeat myself, but it's pretty fucking telling that all the shitheels who cry about "toxicity in the dunk tank" have been massive assholes throughout this entire thing. If this was about toxicity, one would think you of all people would be less of a turd when you're interacting with other people, even people who dares to gasp disagree with you. Do some fucking self-crit you bug
edit: "we think" is obviously not everybody. Stop hiding behind a general vague group.
I did not engage with those arguments because i did not find them convincing, all they boil down to is that its cathartic and "fun", but i fail to see why the targets must be other common people for it to be cathartic and "fun"
If I go to work and my coworker is being a bigoted asshole conspiracy weirdo I am gonna vent about it when I get home to my partner.
I don’t care how much of a “common man” he is.
NOOO VENTING TO YOUR PARTNER ISN'T PRODUCTIVE YOU HAVE TO PRODUCE VALUE ALL THE TIME I AM A SOCIALIST AND YOU ARE WHITE AND CIS AND HET AND CHAUVINIST AND TOXIC
I think it’s clear that plenty of people here, evidently at least a plurality, find these posts to be cathartic and "fun", so why should you and a handful of people disagreeing have any impact on why people shouldn’t get to have catharsis and fun?
Essentially, why are you right other than you think you are?
The "targets" don't even know we're talking about them. In the off chance that someone sees a post on the comm and decides to go dunk on some fascist, I'd say it's deserved, we should not take any actions to protect fascists from having their feelings hurt.
The purpose of those changes is not to protect the nameless chuds, but to make the content better and less toxic
Ah is this the fabled improved rhetoric? Or is this your idea of not being dismissive and toxic?
"I didn't engage with the arguments because I didn't agree with them"
Fuck off, seriously. Do some self crit.
Why are you modding the dunk tank? Why take the job if you hate it?
edit: If you can't even be arsed to put in basic effort when having an argument, how can you expect this site to be one that fosters effortposts?
Time for tone policing. Take your strongly worded words in your replies to replaceable down by like 30 to 50 hogs.
Some of the people that have Ms or As next to their names are gonna need having strong words of their own so I'd suggest not getting too tilted.
You've read the posts though right? like objectively there are some pretty bad fucking people getting represented in that content
Those may be people that say terrible things but that doesnt matter, if we dont know their identity, most likely they are just another prole and their words are just as inconsequential as mine or yours
Westerners are not members of the global proletariat, they are our enemies
Says you lot.
” When will it finally be my turn to work in the coal mines?”
After the revolution you WILL be effortposting thrice daily
NO I WANT TO POST CUTE PICTURES OF CATS AND TWITTER SCREENSHOTS OF DINGUSES BEING DINGUSES
Yet fake news?
Turns out that comm is cool and good because the most prolific poster over there is a good friend of the admins.
Funny how that works.
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How does this ruin other people's fun?
You have been accused of wrongthink. Please cease having fun immediately because I don’t like it
How does removing the place where people go to do a thing, remove their ability to go to the place and do a thing? Are you 12? Children don't learn how action and consequence are linked until age 13. It would eplain a lot of your behaviour if you were a tween
But you can still do functionally the same thing in c/gossip just not at the same people
Why are you modding a comm you hate?Seems like there's a simple solution to that
You specifically should not be a mod. Carcosa shouldn't step down, you should.
Yeah, not really sure what has happened and as we are some of the most active posters, that worries me a little. Things seem to be blowing up and getting resolved while we're asleep.
Given some of the recent history, sometimes seems like we have a transphobic mod/admin problem, not a transphobic user problem.
Yeah lol the last thread about misogyny I had to bite my tongue not to blurt out "over half this site is queer! Maybe the problem isn't just the 10 cishet guys we keep as pets! Maybe you should look inwards you fucking dorks! Maybe you're the issue!"
queer people also aren't immune to misogyny brainworms unfortunately. I had some qualms about some details of that thread (if I'm thinking of the same one), but to say the mods are The Problem then as now...
I guess I'm just not sure i'm totally on board with the "shitty mod clique" thesis you're operating on. I think there are definitely some people operating more on vibes and their personal comfort, which sometimes results in bad analysis, but on the other hand, we want all sorts of marginalized people to be comfortable here, so its not like you can completely ignore those factors either.
I 100% agree! I tried to word this in such a way as to make it clear I do not disagree with that sentiment at all but I couldn't figure out a way to make it explicitly clear, without being clunky.
What I was trying to say was that there is a group of people who do not care about these issues they allege, but instead use them as an excuse to push thru changes they wish to see in the site, despite those changes being deeply unpopular. They can then say "oh it's only unpopular with bigots!" to avoid any critique.
agree, this was the thing that peeved me the most about the whole debacle honestly. also don't think carcosa needs to step down unless it's also for personal reasons.
For me what pissed me off, was an alt account of one of our users telling everyone to kill themselves if we disagreed with them because apparently we're just a bunch of chauvinistic white males...
That alt was the most heated person in the struggle session
I have a theory 👁
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They're back ITT!
Lmao do they stalk our accounts or something?
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yeah I thankfully missed that part. definitely a bizarre addition to the story
They're back if you want to see them in action lol
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