Sad that they can't realize that a "nothing will fundamentally change" centrist president will just further the chances of a real competent fascist taking the crown the next time around. :this-is-fine:
It would not have been as likely if they had nominated Sanders and tried to enact reforms to go into the direction of European social democratic countries.
I'm pretty sure that would pacify wide swaths of the country, not that I'd like that, but if they were actually interested in not having the country go to a fascist they would've done something like that.
But the capital interests behind them and through their decade long self-indoctrination they can't even accept a bit of reformism if it could potentially cut into profits.
He clearly views stopping Trump as a moral imperative in 2020 in a way he wasn't able to effectively articulate in 2016. Even though in 2016 he did support Clinton in meaningful ways, he wasn't actively pleading with his base to support her the way he has with Biden.
It's important to remember that Sanders is legitimately patriotic, and believes that the continuity of America as a nation state with strong democratic institutions as paramount. Trump clearly doesn't represent the immediate threat the media likes to make it out to be, but his reelection would absolutely put the country on a path of far weaker institutions and global standing.
I know plenty of Bernie supporters who feel the same way he does. I'm not one of them, but I am pretty sure I get where they are coming from. I don't think it's a surprise that Bernie would be pushing people to vote for Biden.
We need actual radical leaders, not ones that fold the fuck over when the dems ask nicely
Even if lenin himself was reincarnated in AOC’s body
🚨 🚨 VOLCEL POLICE 🚨 🚨
This shouldn't be news. If Biden gets elected, it is your duty to expose him and DNC for the shams they are. Then people will have seen both sides of electoralism. It can't be blamed on one party any more. This is how you push more people into the pipeline.
Well, Occupy and BLM moved Obama to the left, so this should work on Biden as well. Oh, wait
If Warren is a snake, Obama is something far worse. Watching the guy pretend to drink flints water is something I'll never be able to move past even despite his other horrific acts around the world. Obama energized working class communities within our inner cities and he went far beyond completely abandoning them, he actively poisoned them.
I still remember him, when he was president, doing an interview inside a prison, where he talks in length about that there must be big change in the US justice system, and then he doesn't even do one simple thing like decriminalizing weed.
Occupy and BLM didn't have Bush making allusions to attack half of the country's population and labeling them as a threat to the nation itself. Or let 170,000 Americans dies out of stubborn negligence. You're right, if things weren't so crazy right now, attempts to radicalize people wouldn't work.
Seriously. If Biden wins, we need a massive movement to pressure him left. I don't what levers of power will make the most sense, but the civil war within the party will be back on.
The unspoken agenda for the left is to fight on both fronts: as a third party and to quietly take over the democratic party.
There is no "taking over the democratic party" lmao chapo is so lost sometimes. Do you not see literally anything they've done over the last 5 years? Establishment Democrats could literally leave the Democratic Party and form a new party and the media would immediately move to drop the Democratic Party and advertise the newly formed party and make it the new Democratic Party.
Do you have a better plan? Because its an uphill battle no matter which way we go.
The United States is not going to exist 4 years from now. It will break down and become a failed state.
Ask yourself what you would do if you were in Syria a few years before its civil war began.
Focus on local organization efforts. Use the protests as a jump-off point, since they are a hotbed of current political activity. Propagandize socialism, form networks of mutual aid, create or join armed leftist militias. Participate in political activities with material effects like strikes, boycotts, or direct physical action. When shit hits the fan you need to be positioned in the most effective place to enact a socialist will. Co-operation is important - everything has to be a mass project. Be pragmatic, be smart, be opportunistic. Use relevant, immediate, and local problems as they happen, and address them in ways you can directly affect. I can't be too specific because it's about reacting to and pivoting off of your specific local context and the power you have to affect the grander socialist project, but be creative in trying to imagine how and where you should be in 4 years.
Make more people angry until you can nullify the power of the ruling class wholesale.
That's the plan. If Biden wins it may actually be really easy. Because the libs and dems can't blame it all on Trump and now have to face the system itself.
Or they'll do what they did under obama and ignore it because the guy locking up the kids has a blue jersey
Despite DNC internet propaganda, a lot of people don't want to vote blue no matter who. Undertones of radicalization against the DNC started in 2014. Obama was exposed. Republicans went full mask off the past 4 years. Biden proved the past few days that he's not going to change anything. A lot of Americans don't feel like they have a party anymore. If Biden wins, there is no side left to blame, there isn't a more perfect chance to dismantle it all.
I would like to see primary challengers to every centrist democrat in Congress announce themselves early and loudly. Imagine a challenger on a megaphone announcing their intention to primary Schumer on a platform of GND and M4A. And simply using every chance to explain what that agenda means and why everyone needs it. Its our biggest weapon: the agenda that is easy to explain and everyone needs.
trump has to win for people to get fed up. if biden wins, things get marginally better, people forget they're in a shit hole, and the cycle perpetuates.
the idea that biden winning would push more people to the left than trump exists solely in your imagination.
a rapid surge in right wing terrorism doesn't push people left, it pushes them towards nationalism, and boot licking, looking for security from the us government.
The idea that Biden winning would cause things to marginally get better and people forget they’re in a shithole exists solely in your imagination.
If Biden wins, the mass unemployment will not magically go away. The virus will not magically go away. The GDP will not magically recover. People will still be fed up. A lot needs to happen and Biden already showed he’s not willing to change the status quo. Everything that Biden is lacking Trump is nonexistent if not being an active detriment. People have a better chance of successfully revolting under Biden than under Trump.
it doesn't matter if he changes anything if the media just stops showing it - which is exactly what's going to happen.
The media is no longer all-powerful thankfully. Did you forget the internet exists, like where we are right now?
oh yes, because the internet isn't completely astroturfed and controlled too. that's why we're still on reddit right?
you're arguing that the problems will still exist if biden is elected and that people will blame dems for it because they're the only ones left to blame. this isn't how it will work. they'll continue the narrative that it was all leftover from trump and biden is just dealing with his shit, the same way that trump said to his stupid followers about obama. it's a fucking cycle. blame the last guy, continue to get nothing done.
No, they’re not going to blame Biden for Trump’s failings. They’re going to blame Biden for refusing to improve things with his ineffective policies. Trump doesn’t get off Scott free. Biden digs himself in a hole for being the neolib he is.
The difference is that much of Trump’s blaming of Obama was objectively false. Biden doesn’t have to blame anybody. People will simply watch Biden’s policies in action. (Much like watching Obama’s policies in action.) It’s not that difficult.
they're not going to blame biden at all. they're going to go back to being complaisant and the media will be singing the tune that 'at least he's not trump.' all the while the US will continue to drift right slowly.
if trump wins, everything continues to get worse and worse and people actually start to pay attention.
the entire notion you're putting out there just feeds into perpetuating cycle of lesser evilism, even if that's not your intention.
My intention is not lesser evilism, just what is plausible. The media is not monolithic even though it appears so. The facts that outlets such as InfoWars, and enough extreme right-wing notions that created this current cult in office is proof that the media can no longer control the narrative as much as they want. I would have fully agreed with you 10 years ago, but the mass availability of information has become exponentially greater.
Yes, if Trump wins people do pay attention. My issue with that is, assuming a proper revolution gets underway, any number of fail-conditions on that path will result in an American Theocratic Facist state on a scale you cannot remotely convince me compares to the shell of which is in place today.
I don’t see this as lesser evilism. I see this as pragmatism in two hypothetical scenarios.
because you presented the possibility of failure and said it was an issue.
so you're saying it would be bad if trump won because it leads to the greatest chance of revolution, and if the revolution fails then we're under the thumb of government, and you'd rather that we continue this incremental change bullshit, and think that that would be a better route, despite the fact that during the last fifty years the country has regressed rather than progressed. am i getting that right?
so you’re saying it would be bad if trump won because it leads to the greatest chance of revolution
No.
if the revolution fails then we’re under the thumb of government
Yes.
and you’d rather that we continue this incremental change bullshit, and think that that would be a better route, despite the fact that during the last fifty years the country has regressed rather than progressed
No. I’m saying a revolution would be a better route. And that it occurring under “incremental change bullshit” has a less risky chance of working.
am i getting that right?
Partly. You are getting there.
incremental change doesn't lead to revolution. your opinion is American Stockholm Syndrome. it's ass.
incremental change doesn’t lead to revolution
No, it doesn’t. I’m not saying it leads to a revolution at all. But there has been no incremental change the past 4 years. Only far-right extreme change and Americans dying by the thousands. A revolution is primed in either outcome.
your opinion is American Stockholm Syndrome.
It must be nice to not be a hostage. To not be a marginalized class. To not be repeatedly and personally threatened that you will be the first on the firing line, the first target of domestic terror. It must be nice.
lol. probably neither outcome, but just based on the rubber band effect, a trump win has a higher chance of leading to a progressive winning in four years.
edit: you're going to modify your comment to try to attack me after words? you're making a lot of assumptions about someone you don't know.
Like I implied in the earlier comment, there is a likelihood the rubber band is going to break before it gets to four years. It Can Happen Here.
so now we should 'vote for joe' to preserve the status quo? just garbage.
Where did I ever use the word "vote"? This whole conversation was about two hypothetical situations. You seem to be projecting here.
because you're heavily implying it by promoting incremental change and the status quo over people getting fed up and actually organizing.
Uh no? You should read this comment thread again. I discussed two outcomes of the election and how people may respond to either. I laid out objective practicalities of how those outcomes may affect people. I pointed out that one of those has an objectively bad possibility. You seem to be conflating that with me “promoting” or urging a “vote” one way or another.
My issue with that is, assuming a proper revolution gets underway, any number of fail-conditions on that path will result in an American Theocratic Facist state
And that it occurring under “incremental change bullshit” has a less risky chance of working.
there is a likelihood the rubber band is going to break before it gets to four years. It Can Happen Here.
sorry for the wrongful deduction. guess i'm reading between the lines a bit too much.
Yep. Glad we cleared that up. (Unless you are being sarcastic. Really, those are neutral objective observations that can be for or against. You don't have to try to project this hard.)
the idea that everything has to be some sort of projection, when weighed against someone implying something they didn't intend to imply is a whole different conversation.
Wish the DNC would stop holding his grandkids hostage so we could have the old Bernie back
There is nothing dumber than the "we can push him to the left in office" idea.
How? The left has even less power with a Dem in office. FAR too many libs will be satisfied with "orange man gone" to engage in the mass direct action needed, at least at first. MAYBE he'll go too far right and we'll see some libs back in the street, but that's a big if.
we're going to have SO MUCH POWER AND LEVERAGE the day after the election
...because the dumb liberals are going to fuck this up and we can gloat for five seconds and say "i told you so" before being carted off to the nearest concentration camp
Is that a good idea? I don't know that Biden should be taking more uppers in his condition.
