First, it started with people saying cis women getting breast implants was gender-affirming surgery and at least that kinda made sense on the very surface level. Now people are claiming all plastic surgeries are gender-affirming which made me check whether this was some orchestrated trolling effort. Doesn't seem like it.
Here's the tweet .
why are you booing her, she's right. it's maybe a little silly to be specifically highlighting his hair, but gender affirming care is absolutely and unquestionably available to cis people in a way that it is not for trans people. all these fucking billionaires and grifters are injecting themselves with fucking testosterone all the time, that they already produce, because they want more of it so bad that they're willing to cause the cessation of their own natural hormone production. that is gender affirming. getting his hair filled in is the same fucking thing, not because it is inherently but because he did it to affirm his own social role! billionaires shouldn't look like balding dweebs in elon's opinion, so he got medical care that physically reaffirms to him his understanding of his place in a social hierarchy. ok. not the same as all plastic surgeries being gender affirming, which is not what the tweet claims anyway.
not the same as all plastic surgeries being gender affirming, which is not what the tweet claims anyway
I didn't mean the specific post. There are people in the replies saying exactly that and people in this thread saying that any plastic surgery that makes you more of an attractive member of your gender is gender-affirming.
i mean...they're certainly right about that as well. i'd consider it more broadly socially affirming than strictly gender affirming, but it's still more care than trans people often have access to. and that's the point no? there's all sorts of supposedly "medically unnecessary" procedures that exist solely to attempt to help a person feel affirmed in their social identity that are widely accessible, and are used by the rich and famous without broad social reckoning.
procedures that exist solely to attempt to help a person feel affirmed in their social identity that are widely accessible, and are used by the rich and famous without broad social reckoning.
One point, I would argue against this, is that no they are not widely available, they are available to the rich & famous such that they might reinforce their own social position by better embodying traits which are understood to be desirable.
You cannot as a random cis-prole-asshole wander into the doctors office & ask for the Insta-Fit Model Special, and expect to fuckin get it. You can barely expect to be allowed enough time to yourself to groom yourself, or to be able to follow a coherent exercise regimen; and even then that's entirely dependent on whether or not you can still maintain economic productivity while doing that.
Yeah, that's certainly true, but we're talking about Elon specifically and the hypocrisy of our societal acceptance of his self-affirming actions relative to trans people being demonized for wanting to do so in the first place. I would also argue that these things are widely accessible at least in the sense of "probably won't get responded to with hate crimes," even if practically capitalism is the fuck that it always is.
Well I'm not arguing against the notion trans people are prevented from pursuing their gender identity; or that there aren't reasons beyond "just" economic disenfranchisement for that, as it were.
Edit: fuck I think I miswrote that before hand.
I guess my point here is that I think that even cis-people are more fucked up & insecure about their own bodies (at least I know I am) now that body-modification & "physique enhancement" among the wealthy has basically completely lost any taboos & as labor continues to get more squeezed for economic value.
oh yeah, I mean of course that's true, it's just not what I thought we were here to talk about I guess. that said, I qualified my original comment for a reason.
gender affirming care is absolutely and unquestionably available to cis people ** in a way that it is not for trans people.**
I'm not saying that it is genuinely freely available to cis people, or even that cis people don't have issues relating to gender, of course they do. I'm neurodivergent and one of the phrases that I've resented my entire life has been "act like a man." I don't fit the western standards of masculinity in many ways, it's just not something that I struggle with or has caused me harm in many ways, so I don't really talk about it, I just try to be an enthusiastic advocate for the marginalized. anyway, my point was rather that cis people are encouraged in many ways to affirm their gender in society, and there is much more acceptance of that affirmation taking the form of cosmetic and/or surgical intervention of some kind. fuck, most men I know are circumcised, a genital mutilation that is generally accepted as a normal gender affirmation to be applied to male newborns. that's way more drastic than what people are saying is "grooming" the kids as trans or however reactionaries put it.
Enbies can get cosmetic surgery to increase how attractive they are too, including traits that are considered universally attractive among all genders (teeth whitening, correcting a cleft palate, nose job for a crooked nose, etc).
So are non-binaries affirming a gender if they get these surgeries to be more attractive? Which gender? This entire thing falls apart really quickly when you think about it.
Fitting into the social role of billionaire is not “gender affirming”
Not really what I'm saying. Billionaires have the opportunity to get themselves medical intervention that affirms their social identity to themselves with little fanfare. Trans people do not generally have that.
How does that relate to gender, which is the topic of the OP. If you want to change the subject and talk about social role affirmations, sure but that’s not the discussion at hand
Do you think literally all social roles are gender or gender related?
Gender is a subset of the larger category of social roles and expectations. You are equivocating gender and all social roles
If what you were saying was right, non-binaries like me wouldn’t have any social roles at all? Do I just sit alone in a cave? Or do I have expectations and responsibilities still not tied to my gender identity such as parent, sibling, lover, Patriot, janitor, etc?
Do you think literally all social roles are gender or gender related?
what in the world? let me break this down simply.
Premise 1: It is ok to change yourself to affirm your social role. Premise 2: Gender roles are a subset of all social roles. Conclusion: It is ok to change yourself to affirm your gender role, whatever that might be.
Non-binary people living in a western society are still by and large expected to visibly conform to a gender role in public or potentially be ostracized, unfortunately. i think it's absurd to read my defense of trans personhood as an attack on nonbinary people... the only point i've been making is that society at large generally accepts the category of changing yourself to affirm yourself, in many instances it is lauded, except for trans people. that is all. i mean the things i say and no more.
I agree with both your premises, but I don’t agree with the conclusion that all cosmetic surgeries are gender affirming, which is the disputed conclusion the tweet makes. Your premises don’t lead to this conclusion
Are all cosmetic surgeries socially affirming? Yes.
Are all cosmetic surgeries gender affirming? Dubious.
You don't think part of the surgery was about looking less like a weird nerd and more masculine?
The man had surgery to acquire a jawline.
Honestly, I didn't notice the jaw. Could it be just angles, or getting older, or hgh those dudes seem to shoot up with? Bezos looks really weird nowadays.
No way he went from round faced nerd to chiseled and manly. He was absolutely trying to look manlier.
Def. I did see a before after picture and that he wasn't in the public for some time that matched the time needed for such operations quite well. To keep their followers they must strife to become more like superhero versions of bad billionaires.
I can’t move threads so just pretend this has been moved to /r/strugglesession I guess
I think that for most cis people being recognized as attractive is one of the most gender affirming things out there. We (cis people) are so alienated from our gender expression that all we've got is attractiveness and the performance of dictated gender roles.
I dunno. As a cis dude, I've been recognized as attractive in a way that was very much the opposite of gender-affirming.
I'm having trouble conceptualizing something like that. Would something like a man being called 'cute' or 'adorable' instead of their preferred 'handsome' be along the lines of what you mean? In this case I think that changing oneself to be 'handsome' would be gender affirming.
Gender is by definition more about feeling than looks. After all, it would be wrong to identify a not-yet-out trans person as the gender presented by their 'looks.' If having a full head of hair makes you feel like a man then I think it follows that it can be gender affirming.
I’m having trouble conceptualizing something like that.
I'm a thin-ass dude and I had a girlfriend who used to gush about how slender, graceful and fragile my arms looked.
Fun fact. There is no difference between handsome and beautiful in Russian language.
It sounds like you felt bad and maybe even slight dysphoria at the reception of that compliment and I'm sorry to hear that.
I'm going to probe a little for the sake of argument, so I apologize if it makes you uncomfortable. Feel free to ignore. Did that feeling of hurt make you want to become more muscular? Do you think gaining muscle mass or having a different bone structure might make you feel 'manly' in a way that would gender affirming?
It sounds like you felt bad and maybe even slight dysphoria at the reception of that compliment and I’m sorry to hear that.
That seems like an obvious assumption to make, but no, I was happy to be complimented. Maybe I'm just a weirdo.
Like generally I think it's wrong to equate gendered beauty standards and gender. Sure, I would want to measure up to my gender's beauty standards, because that would make my life easier, but I understand that those are outside stands placed on me. I'm also tall, bold, hairy and ugly which means I've never in my life been confused to be anything but a man, I'm pretty secure in that.
I think the easiest analogy to demonstrate twitter OP's point is how terfs complain that transwomen use all the estrogen pills meant for post-menopausal women. As if having sex hormones after menopause wasn't unnatural for the last XXX million years.
i guess that's how terfs react when we tell them hrt is safe because it has been used on cis people for ages. most of these dingdongs probably didn't know what estrogen is before they decided that harassing trans people is now their only hobby.
You can't put estrogen in a man, because it kills all the Y chromosomes and turns you into Victor Victoria.
I wonder if male pattern baldness makes men feel emasculated
side note fuck elon
Emasculated is a weird thing I might not really understand, because I don't think there's a corresponding concept in Russian. Like obviously by itself it wouldn't make you feel less manly, because it's male pattern baldness is something that only happens to men and there are a lot of really manly dudes that are bold. On the other hand it impedes you ability to attract woman, which is supposed to be a big part of being manly so there's an element of loss of control when this happens to you.
But I dunno. I don't think that being bold makes you more emasculated than having a skin condition or something, even though both of those things can make you less attractive.
It's worth noting that baldness in men has historical connotations in Western Europe with impotence & powerlessness. This is because the Franks had weird fuckin' inheritance laws that required you to have long hair (as a man) to inherit anything; and disinherited sons were usually tonsured (had your hair shaved) & sent into the clergy, where in the Roman Catholic Church, you can't marry.
Idk if its about attraction per se, rather that it strays from ideal, and can cause emotional discomfort. emasculation is the act or process of removing or denying masculinity, which balding can be seen as a signifier of even though it's ultimately just another hormonal physiology expression
Was interesting to read there's no distinction between handsome/beautiful. I can see how that could flatten the peaks and troughs in the "maleness" and "femaleness" of things, ergo bald is just another expression of the former and not seen as detriment
Huh? Must be cultural b/c in my experience baldness is seen as peak masculine, especially the bald/beard/body hair combo.
the less we gatekeep surgeries, the better for trans people. if it's gender-affirming for you, do it. a lot of people getting surgeries are doing so because they want to look more attractive as their genders.
Obviously I don't want to gatekeep surgeries, gender-affirming or otherwise. I guess I've just been through enough feminist struggle sessions about plastic surgery and patriarchal beauty standards that equating cis people getting plastic surgery and trans people getting gender-affirming surgery doesn't sit well with me. Like, I hope we all can agree that the fact people are getting plastic surgery isn't always good and a lot of times it reflects that there's something wrong with societal beauty standards?
Like, I hope we all can agree that the fact people are getting plastic surgery isn’t always good and a lot of times it reflects that there’s something wrong with societal beauty standards?
That doesn't make them not gender affirming surgery tho
It is almost like beauty standards and gender are intertwined in our culture
It is almost like beauty standards and gender are intertwined in our culture.
This seems like an obviously true statement, but I can't really grasp what you specifically mean by that.
People can do things because of gender dsyphoria, and gender dsyphoria can be created by culturally enforced gender standards, of which beauty standards are a part
sure but that's a structural force that's difficult to apply at the individual level.
Going bald is obviously the manliest thing you can do.
Generally, people in that thread seem to be confusing looking good (for your gender) and looking like your gender. A lot of features that are considered unattractive (even for a man), like being bold, having body hair, having a huge nose or a lantern jaw, are unmistakably manly.
Surely all gender affirming surgery is about what is good looks for your gender, it'd be pointless otherwise, no?
Would it be pointless? We are talking about what makes you look like your gender, not necessarily maximally reflect your gender's beauty standards.
Yeah but while male pattern baldness is a decidedly male coded phenomena, it's hardly the peak maleness is it. I mean barring some examples, your archetypal "good" male for a lack of ba better term is portrayed with hair. Sure, this doesn't track with what's actually happening, but then again gender is a fuck anyways.
Picking up your boob job analogy here I'd argue having "nice" boobs is way more womanly than having saggy breasts. I don't see where the meaningful difference between trying to look male and trying to look good male is supposed to be here for this to not make sense.
Would getting hair removal surgery according to male pattern baldness as a FtM be gender affirming surgery? I'd say yes. But I'd argue the same for hair transplants. One makes you look male, the other better male. The end goal is the same: to look more like your gender
especially in the refuse of Christianity in Europe, physically unattractive characteristics are associated with evilness and danger to society. every billionaire that plans to be publicly visible gets a glow up for that reason. imagine if elon still looked identically the part of a pasty balding dweeb. it might help him sell the notion that he is a tech genius better, but it certainly would invite the not-critically-minded to disparage him as evil for his looks alone. fuck, look at :pete: even, we make fun of him for looking like a little rat because it reaffirms to us our belief in his innate badness.
An interesting question is how this works when beauty standards change and whether it affects gender norms.
Like say during heroin chic era being rail-thin and having small breasts was considered more attractive, while having big breasts and a curvy figure would make you more unmistakably female.
Same with the k-pop dude look. Not sure how much it has become a male beauty standard in Korea, but we can use it as a hypothetical. Sure, looking like a BTS dude is considered attractive, but being huge, bold, ugly and hairy seems like a much better way to never be mistaken for a woman.
You're mistaking the reality of people's bodies for the idealized "what your gender is supposed to look like" that we get sold
Just because men in reality have those traits doesn't mean the masculinity that you are sold accurately reflects that. The masculinity that you are sold is distinct from the actual range of dudes bodies.
I mean, that's the masculinity I've been sold. Not surprising that it's different than masculinity that people are being sold half world over.
I mean I wouldn't characterize all plastic/cosmetic surgery/procedures being about gender but yeah just in terms of numbers yeah it's cis people getting procedures to make themselves more masculine/feminine.
i mean yeah it is weird that its a hair thing because that is an ostensibly male trait, but you could maybe make the argument that its a 'type' of male that some dont want to be
it is possible for cis people to experience gender dysphoria. go look at male cancer patient forums where they have to take spironolactone for cancer reasons, for instance. guys get really upset when they grow breast tissue.
women get breast implants and fat transfers all the time which is arguably a gender affirming surgery.
when you think of things this way, you start to wonder what should be covered insurance wise. i'd say anything that causes clinical distress and can actually be treated would be the criteria. and one surgery per thing to get fixed (re: you cant do 3 boob jobs or face surgeries, as that indicates a completely different problem going on, but revisions to fix complications are fine). things like extreme cases of hirsutism and PCOS should absolutely be covered under the same benefits trans people receive, imo. i could see some arguments against certain procedures that could be socially influenced (re: hair recession or boob jobs) not being covered but there are plenty of cases where it absolutely makes sense to cover it (trans women that didnt grow any breasts, cis women that have cancer having mastectomies)
Bad take, basically all cosmetic surgery can be pretty accurately viewed through the lense of gender affirming surgery
:jesse-wtf: Even correcting a cleft palate? Nose job? Liposuction? Skin whitening? Teeth whitening?
Not everything in the world is about gender. Some things are unrelated or universal, such as removing birth defects or unwanted fat. Women, men, non-binary or anything else - nobody wants a cleft palate or cauliflower ear
"Basically all"
Nose job? Liposuction? Skin whitening?
All these things are connected to gender, the last one being related to how gender is racialized
I’m non-binary. If I got a teeth whitening and a nose job to fix my crooked nose, which gender am I affirming?
the last one related to how gender is racialized
What does this even mean? Is whiteness masculine or feminine? Is Asian skin masculine or feminine? If an Asian man gets skin whitening is that affirming his gender or negating it? Surely it’s the inverse for an Asian woman who gets skin whitened then. So which is it?
This entire metaphysical model of tying everything in the world to gender is vulgar, essentialist and incoherent I’m gonna be real with you.
You know nonbinary people are still subject to beauty standards right?
Edit because of your edit:
Is whiteness masculine or feminine?
Gender being racialized means, among other things, that a black woman has different beauty standards imposed on her than a white woman, or an Asian woman. And those beauty standards tend to value whiteness and traits associated with whiteness
This entire metaphysical model of tying everything in the world to gender is vulgar, essentialist and incoherent I’m gonna be real with you.
Yeah, it sucks, society should stop doing it so we can stop having to point out how gendered society makes everything
Yes and what does that have to do with gender? Being attractive is a universally sought after trait for all genders and lack thereof.
So I ask again, which gender am I affirming when I get my cleft palate fixed?
Treating a cleft palate isn't purely cosmetic
But let's use liposuction instead. Do you really think that thinness and gender aren't tied together?
You can ask a lot of enbies who want to present androgynously and have strong feelings on the mainstream definition of androgynous being thin
You can look at the different ways fatness is gendered between men and women.
You dodged the question. Anything that isn’t medically necessary is cosmetic. Trans related medical care is medical, not cosmetic.
Your attempts to force everything into the gender box is both incoherent and tbh pretty transphobic, equating a cosmetic optional surgery with medically necessary ones.
I am an enbie, so I ask again because you still have not answered, if I get liposuction you believe I’m re-affirming a feminine gender role? You think if I get my teeth whitened I’m affirming, what, masculinity? This shit is not scientific or coherent
Want to make a jiu jitsu joke about cauliflower ear, feel like it's not the time. Go ahead and give me the upbears and I'll be on my way
What about that thing some Koreans do to their epicanthic fold that makes them look more European? That one seems to be more about race, if anything.
Note I said basically all, not all
And we can also get into how gender is racialized
