The breach of trust sounds like it was probably because of shame, not because of any kind of deviousness or malice. Maybe treat it like a relapse of an addiction rather than a lie, and work with them on therapy / a twelve-step program / that sort of thing?
I don't think shame us a good defense. Yes it could be worse, but there's still an inability to trust the other person now.
yeah a breach of trust is an issue in that it undermines your ability to continue to trust them not a matter of deliberate malice
that being said shame is better than malice as it means that their intent is still more trustworthy
I guess my paranoia and trust problems are yet again urging me towards weird views on relationships. The minute someone lies to me at all it feels the same, and I get mad if their shame kept them from me because it shows a weakness in our bond.
there's a line in a film "I don't have to trust her I know her" knowing someone well enough means you can trust they will consistently be the same person who's motivated and tries the same things
See I can't believe in that. There is never a point where I know someone well enough to predict and depend on their actions. Someone can earn my trust by showing they, outside of circumstances, will act in an above-board, honest way with me. In turn i am honest with them and treat them well. Once they violate that trust by lying or failing me in some way, they do not get it back easily, if ever. You can never truly know someone completely, but you can trust in someone completely.
every human is imperfect and people fail there does have to be some room for forgiveness.
I can forgive someone for failing, but if they just let me down in a way that shows they weren't capable of doing something and didn't tell me that. Like, if someone always flakes on me when we have plans it's over. They could have had the decency to tell me they couldn't make it or put in more effort to keep to the plan. If they miss ever once in a while no big deal, or they let me know they can't or aren't sure, but to consistently let me down with intent to correct breaks my trust. In similar way, if I ask someone for help and they just never help me even though I have helped them that's it, we're done. Not always being able to help is fine, but never being able to, or even putting in any effort or trying to fund someone who can, means they don't value me as a friend. Worth noting most of this applies to closer friends, not casual friends. I don't put a lot of trust into casual friends and don't expect it from them. I do also always put in effort to reach out to my friends and be there when they need me, check in with them and make sure I'm being a good friend to them. So once they've crossed the line they don't get that anymore. I can forgive and let go my anger, but I can't ever trust them again. That might sound harsh and lonely to you, but I have been betrayed before and I can't let it happen again. Besides, most of my friends have no issue not violating my trust.
Those funkos are appriciating though. It's 8000 dollars invested, not wasted
Compulsive spending to me signals a serious dopamine deficit in a person.
- Therapy
- Make sure this isn't caused by an underlying substance addiction (they could be buying things to barter for drugs or pawn for cash, etc)
- Investigate their social group - they could be emulating behavior that is normalized by others who have more financial freedom.
Best of luck - hope you guys can patch up the relationship. This definitely isn't your fault but you may want to work on communication in couple's therapy - they don't want to feel like a burden so you could benefit from finding a method of communication to make sure they don't feel like one.
Compulsive spending to me signals a serious dopamine deficit in a person
Yeah I was gonna chime in and say when my ADHD isn't managed it's terrifyingly easy to lose track of money spent like this, and it's always worse when I've got a lot of other stress or I can't use my other outlets for blowing off steam (I need to physically craft things or periodically do something creative, when prevented from doing this for long periods of time my impulse spending can get bad)
Five years can buy a lot of leeway, but your spouse should be be able to articulate why this happened in the first place. Why were they racking up debt on trivial stuff (per your other comment)? Why did they conceal it?
If I had to guess, there's some weird stuff going on in their head that brought them to this point, and they should probably consider doing some therapy to resolve the underlying issue. That would definitely help with rebuilding trust as well
Yeah, I'm not advocating for you to dump them or anything. I'd suggest that maybe they should not have a credit card as well. Remove the temptation to spend money they don't have
maybe some sort of debit card that doesn't allow overdrafts
I think therapy or counseling would probably be a smart move
Good, I'd urge you to pursue that.
i don't think it's unreasonable to go through the statements, tbh. it's not something you'd be doing without their permission or knowledge, and - if handled correctly - it could help them understand how quickly these little expenses add up (if that's an issue they have; i know it's something i struggle with heavily)
since rebuilding trust is your main concern, i can see why you'd rather avoid doing so, but it doesn't have to be an inherently negative thing. considering how well you seem to be handling this in general i'd say you definitely have the ability to walk through it gently with them, if you so chose.
at any rate, i hope you're able to help them out of whatever cause them to dig this hole, and i wish you luck in your house-buying endeavors
Yeah, it could very much be a collaborative thing that they work through together and doesn’t become a habit
that's my thinking as well. i also wanna stress (to OP mainly, ofc) that this isn't coming from a place of disdain for the partner or anything; as i said in another comment i am the financially irresponsible partner in my relationship and i find it really helpful to have a frank discussion about money stuff, particularly when i fuck up
communication's the cornerstone and all that
Same here. And I find that over time, I’ve relied less and less on guilt to enforce my financial habits and it’s made me a much more reliable spender. At one point I would have said that guilt is a good motivator when you have a baby who will starve if you buy too many lotto tickets, but honestly I’ve come around on even that. Shame and guilt were a big part of the addictive spiral for me in general and I feel like my parents would have been able to take much better care of me if they could have talked openly about their issues with money and addiction
it sounds like you've made a lot of progress on the issue! i'm genuinely happy for you, comrade. :soviet-heart: i hope OP's SO can make a similar improvement. :)
Ah, good. I mean, I get it, breach of trust and really shitty timing; but at least the spendings were harmless, and the final price not too destructive I guess? As others said, they probably were ashamed of it despite being harmless and that's why they hid it from you.
I haven’t yet gone through any statements - I would feel like a creep doing that
This is a good impulse. Whatever problems your partner is having, letting them lean too much on you handling things for them is a fast track to codependency. Sitting down and having them walk you through the statements as a one time exercise could be another thing entirely, potentially very healthy and insightful.
I will say that, having grown up food and housing insecure, it took me like a decade after punching my way into the middle class to stop spending like I was still poor. Money just disappears when you’re that poor and saving feels like all the worst parts of being broke with none of the comforts that come from an occasional windfall.
Saving is rewarding for someone who’s used to the big payoff down the line. But for someone who’s never done that, it feels like self-flagellation, especially when your savings is repeatedly and inevitably going to get drained for some emergency.
I used to buy cars outright for a couple hundred bucks with my tax return. Then I eventually had enough money to lease a decent car. My first big purchase I saved long-term for was a used car I got for a couple thousand bucks, but owning it outright finally made things click a bit. Saving literally never made sense before that and I had no idea why it was so hard when my partner made it seem so easy. But they’d grown up with their parents helping them set spending goals and encouraging them to save. So they had that ingrained in them. Meanwhile, I grew up learning that money saved was money wasted because it was just going to end up going to endless mountain of debt that we had no hope getting out of anyway.
first one fuck up for free? If it’s true, constant asking about if they hide anything else would be completely maddening (if I were in their place). You either continue live in doubts, or just figure it out and forgive (prolly having story why they’ve spend it and then hidden it would be helpful)
they didn’t want to feel like a burden
That’s kinda oof, maybe sort of general ”don’t wanna think about it” with self-destructive “fuck it, already owe that much” or some kind of shame. At least, that how I could have gotten into that situation. Dunno how to go from there, tell them they can trust you or whatevs
echoing this. it's an odd mess up because it wasn't really one thing OP's partner did in secret - it was hundreds of purchases over years. they knew they were racking up a debt that they couldn't pay and hid it for as long as they could. i would find it difficult to forgive and forget
This is the correct answer. Better to rip off the band-aid now rather than later. This wasn't a one-time fuckup, it was a deliberate fraud perpetrated over multiple years.
R/relationshipadvice calling. It’s unexplainable from outside behavior, but not deliberate fraud, cmon. Deliberate fraud is when you “laugh all the way to the bank”, not spend on take outs over the years.
I don't know you personally so take what I say with a pinch of salt but they dont sound malicious. Stupid? Yes but i feel like this situation would be playing out very differently if there were genuine malicious intentions.
If you decide to have a bit of control over their finances in future dont consider it creepy if its consenual. Its only creepy when its forceful with ulterior motives.
Rebuilding trust is going to take time but it will help by understanding the thought process behind the actions. Spending ridiculous sums of money on takeout is what I do when im really struggling with my mental and need a dopamine hit quick. There were days where I'd order 3 times in one day spending stupid money on greasy garbage.
Also bare in mind getting to the root cause of why this happened needs patience. A lot of people are not so tuned in to their own feelings and may have a hard time explaining why they did something.
Lawyer up and hit the gym. JK that's terrible advice. Definitely do not just let this go but be gentle, try and focus more on the problem as something you have to solve together than as a failing of theirs. At least you caught it when it could be fixed.
8k debt accrued over 5 years is fine but over a few months is just divorce territory. You’re going to be the parental ass hole telling them not to have any more fun “for their own good”. Not good
They also just said Stone Mountain was badass, that's a :ban-hammer:
There is some underlying reason this person thought to spend 8 thousand dollars in a few months and probably buying shit made them happy to an extent. You need a replacement - this goes deeper than this one time debt and will recur unless it’s addressed
If $8k is a chunk of money to you, how did you not notice these expenditures over the course of the year? Are you even living together?
We keep most of our finances separate
You're now a household, not atomized individuals. Why would you keep separate finances unless you are planning to divorce starting from day one?
this is kind of unnecessarily hostile. i plan to be with my partner forever but i still have us maintain separate finances because i suck at money and she doesn't, and it also helps us to talk out big "together" purchases before we impulsively make them
Separate bank accounts is what helped this situation play out. If you are bad with money and your partner is not, then having them berate you every time you make a dumb, unnecessary purchase will help you get better with money (and help them loosen their grip if they're ridiculously tightfisted). You won't need help talking out the "big 'together' purchases" because you'll already have good sense from talking out even the piddling, small purchases. I say this from 18 years of experience.
considering the short timeframe, i think joined accounts could have easily made the situation far worse.
i've also been in my relationship for like a decade at this point and i'm not entirely convinced it would been for the better if my partner tore me a new asshole every time i made a mistake or a stupid decision :shrug-outta-hecks:
Amazing. Every part of that is wrong. You ALWAYS talk over a big decision involving money, and getting belittled for being bad with money does not make you get better, it makes you hate your partner. You are being very aggressive while espousing some really stupid ideas. Separate accounts make perfect sense in the modern world
punishing people for coming to you with a problem just means in future they'll hide it
Exactly. The advice given was like saying parents yelling at their kids for bad grades will encourage them to do better.
It makes sense to have one bank account that is continuously overdrawn and another bank account flush with cash? It makes sense to have to constantly negotiate what debts and purchases are yours, mine, and ours every day for the rest of your life? Maybe separate accounts makes sense in a dual income household of two equally recompensated PMCs who never have to worry about money, but that kind of arrangement wouldn't work for my partner and me. Separate accounts just sounds like a different recipe for resentment to me.
it's still possible to overspend on a joint account without your partner noticing.
I'm glad your way of doing things works for you but you're being needlessly aggressive here
it’s still possible to overspend on a joint account without your partner noticing.
Maybe in the days of paper checks and monthly snail mail bank statements but not really the case anymore with online banking.
you’re being needlessly aggressive here
I may have been needlessly provocative at the start of this thread but I didn't dismiss someone else's values and opinion as "some really stupid ideas" of which "every part of that is wrong".
If one is always overdrawn then you have big issues to address. And if you're out doing your own thing, the purchases are yours. You get your own lunch, your spouse pays for their movie ticket(as examples). You can divide tasks for what feels a reasonable cost to each of you, so one handles the cost of groceries and the other tackles the phone bill. Big purchases you can work on together and discuss how best to account for both of your expenses and pay-schedules. I don't know if it works in every situation, I'm not gonna say you're wrong about what works for you, but for two people of comparable pay and expenses two accounts makes sense. Even for people who worry about money, although I don't know if there is a point where that breaks down.
A lot of countries don't allow joint checking accounts. America does, though. That's why most spouses empty the account before filing for divorce.
A lot of countries don’t allow joint checking accounts.
Smells like bullshit to me.
Why??? Joint checking accounts are an American specialty. In other countries typically husband and wife keep separate accounts and nobody thinks anything of it. Countries that allow it are typically American satrapies like the Philippines.
Smells like bullshit because when I google "countries that don't allow joint bank accounts", I get zero results to confirm the claim, but I do see a tweet about "72 countries where women are barred from opening bank accounts or obtaining credit."
So obviously these are nations with joint accounts or no concept of separate bank accounts. So clearly your claim that separate accounts is the norm and the joint account is a bougie American institution is sus.
nuclear bad take. partners should maintain some financial autonomy.
forcing spouses to put it all into a common pot empowers abusive partners to limit and surveil and grants extraordinary ability for mutual destruction to the one with the worst impulse control.
Oh no! Our joint bank account must mean my worst impulses are sending my abusive spouse and I towards mutual destruction! If you are truly living together as a family then separate finances are a farce and the matter of separate or joint accounts is immaterial to the function of the household. Perhaps instead of insulting people for doing what works for them, you should just do what works for you.
This guy came to us all for advice because what he was doing wasn't working out and we all supplied advice that worked for us. $8k worth of goods and burger wrappers didn't just appear on his doorstep overnight so this pattern of behavior could have been caught sooner if he could monitor their finances. A joint account is a perfect way to accomplish this because he would have caught the spending the first month she made the minimum payment on her shiny new credit card. How he was otherwise oblivious to how she spent her time and money throughout the day may be another concern, but he'd have had one fewer problem with a joint bank account from my experience.
If you are truly living together as a family then separate finances are a farce
"if you really loved me, you wouldn't have your own money." this is the exact phrasing an abuser uses to keep their victim from pursuing autonomy. it's called economic abuse and it's real, whether you want to believe in it or not. forced pooling of funds is a crucial tactic of abusers.
this situation came up because one partner engaged in reckless spending and the immediate damage was limited by the OPs ability to zero out high interest debt. now they can work on their relationship, strategize a way to rebuild the nest egg, and find out what happened without forking over 22% interest to chase bank or whoever.
having only a common pot would not have prevented this, as one partner could always go out and open a line of credit on their own without telling their partner or creating an opportunity to monitor its use. or are you imagining that having only a joint checking account prevents a partner from getting their own line of credit? them having all their money in a single joint account would give full access to the emergency fund to the reckless partner.
Abusers can manipulate normal social behavior to their own ends. That doesn't mean normal social behavior is automatically abuse. Separate accounts aren't a panacea against abuse either. An abuser could use income disparity and separate accounts to justify luxury expenses for themselves as their partner scrapes by. In a household contending with bills, children, groceries, home repairs, and transportation costs, too many expenses are shared to keep your finances completely separate. If you don't have shared expenses, you're more roommates with benefits rather than a couple.
And I guess an irresponsible partner could open a line of credit and never pay the minimum balance either, but you have to resort to crazy extremes in order to make your point. What does that say about you or your point if outliers are the only cases that justify it?
so, because you can't imagine how a couple can maintain separate finances except in one single common pot, it's impossible...? despite others in here saying they do it?
the logistics are simple: party A has their account, party B has their account, and there exists a joint A-B account. mutual bills are paid through the joint account. mutual goals are saved for in joint savings accounts. individual goals are saved for in personal accounts. surprises/gifts, miscellany/discretionary spending come from personal accounts. couples with unequal income can arrange whatever distribution and management responsibility through automatic direct deposits and create individual/shared budgets with total transparency, or they can just hash out shared expenses / proportional responsibility for them and keep the rest to themselves.
nothing i am talking about is an outlier. financial troubles are consistently in the top 5 reasons for dissolution of marriage and even among those that remain together, financial troubles are a consistent source of unhappiness. while there are structural causes of this, humans do get manipulated into surrendering independence in abusive relationships. impulse control disorders are real and can manifest suddenly. these are things that happen every day to people.
you're the one insisting that all other couples keeping personal accounts makes those relationships "a farce". yours is the extreme position here. and, FYI, your complete inability to recognize other, common household financial arrangements as being part of a healthy, committed romantic relationship among equal partners while lashing out at everyone with rude dismissals and personal attacks is saying something about you.
anyway, i'm done. good luck or whatever.
your complete inability to recognize other, common household financial arrangements as being part of a healthy, committed romantic relationship among equal partners while lashing out at everyone with rude dismissals and personal attacks is saying something about you.
Projection much?
Are they diagnosed with bipolar/another illness that makes them prone to impulsivity?
If not I would say divorce, probably irreconcilable and will happen again.
