we have this thread every day comrade.
yes she's a liberal. she never pretended to not be a liberal. people assumed she was an epic based leftist because something something the bread book something something antifascism
I will always have an appreciation for her since her channel helped me get over some lingering transphobia but this just seems really unnecessary.
Why would you want to associate yourself with someone whose most notable accomplishments in recent years are warcrimes and losing the presidential race to the dumbest man alive?
in costume. they're gonna make the costumes in the hunger games look tame.
she figured out her gender and a bunch of us hoped the anarchist catgirl character would kinda stop being a character but instead we got doubling down on liberalism and being shitty to nonbinary comrades
Basically this. Tabby was well-crafted enough to work as an unironic leftist dogwhistle. We held out hope for the briefest moment that the choice to use a catgirl as a dogwhistle was intentional, a form of dialectics in action. But alas, the caricature was just a caricature.
In her video essay titled "The Aesthetic" (from September, 2018), she implies some very enbyphobic bullshit.
Excerpt from https://alyesque.medium.com/how-contrapoints-misunderstands-gender-bd833cc6d8c8
CW: Transphobia/enbyphobia/internalized misogyny
Now that we have begun to explicate the theory of gender underlying Natalie’s work, we can see how this theory manifests and continues to develop in her controversial video The Aesthetic. This video once again adopts the pretense of a debate between two of Natalie's characters. The first character is named Tabby: a furry who wears an antifa pin and represents a caricature of radical leftist trans women. Tabby is uninterested in passing, uninterested in appealing to cis people’s sensibilities and expectations, and focused on political militancy. In stark contrast to Tabby is the second character in this video: Justine, a conventionally passing trans woman with an emphasis on passing and appealing to dominant notions of gender.
While Natalie has insisted that neither character speaks for her, it is worth noting that one is dressed as a cat and regularly grooms herself throughout the video, while the other is a conventionally attractive trans woman who more or less argues that cis people’s expectations ought to be taken seriously. Natalie can insist that Justine does not speak for her, but the framing of Tabby as a pathetic and patently absurd caricature of radicalism already frames her position as comical and naive. Meanwhile, Justine reflects the views that a cis audience would already bring to the table and is also coded as serious and rational. This frames her view in a favorable manner. Regardless of Natalie’s intentions, Justine is framed as a protagonist in this conversation. Moreover, the views that Justine puts forward fit in well with Natalie’s previous theory of gender and appears to reflect some of Natalie’s own views.
The main part of the video begins with Justine chastising Tabby for her “ridiculous” appearance in a previous debate with another character: Dr. Abigail Cockbane. In this previous debate Tabby responds to misgendering at the hands of Abigail by exclaiming “that’s a human rights violation” before lifting a baseball bat and threatening to “smash your fucking face.” While it is obvious that this is a satirical depiction of trans radicals, we might wonder why Natalie feels the need to use caricatures of angry trans women for laughs.
Justine insists that Tabby ought to wear a dress because, “if you want to get misgendered less, it helps to femme it up a little.” She continues to object to Tabby’s behavior in this previous debate, arguing that it constitutes a bad representation of trans women. When Tabby replies that, “it is not morally wrong to stand up to your oppressors,” Justine retorts that it is not “much worse than morally wrong, it was aesthetically wrong… it’s bad optics, it’s bad aesthetics.” Tabby, predictably responds that not everything is about optics and that she is a woman even though she is unfeminine and not socially perceived as a woman. She insists that her womanhood is a matter of reality. To this, Justine asserts the central claim in her argument: “Reality plays no role in politics; politics is aesthetics.”
To substantiate this thesis, Justine argues that politics is not driven by philosophy but is driven by aesthetics and pageantry. She concludes that politics needs to be undertaken by trans women through their own involvement in pageantry and aesthetic production. Justine points to the ascendancy of Trump as a evidence for the dominance of aesthetics and spectacle within the political sphere. The rise of a “reality show president” is understood as indicative of the fact that we live in an age of spectacle, not an age of reason. Justine points to a live stream debate that Natalie previously had with Blair White to prove her point. She argues that while Natalie had better arguments, this was irrelevant because Blair looked in charge and passed, while Natalie “looked like an awkward dude in an anime wig.” While this is an obviously cynical interpretation of events, it reflects Justine’s central thesis that politics is not about reason.
This leads Justine to assert another cynical claim: to be a trans woman with a sizable public following, you have to “look like a fucking woman.” Tabby responds by pointing out that this is meaningless because women can have a variety of visual appearance that can include beards or baldness. In response, Justine points out that society has a very low opinion of those women.
The video then devolves into a comic back and forth between Tabby and Justine before returning to the philosophical content of Justine’s argument. She suggests that Tabby ought to read up on Judith Butler (previously mentioned in What is Gender), who she interprets as saying that “gender is performance… womanhood is not what you are, it is what you do.” She argues that there is a sense in which trans women are pretending to be women, precisely because being a woman is to perform an ideal notion of womanhood. Furthermore, she explains that gender nonconforming cis women are punished by society precisely for their failure to perform correctly. For Justine, womanhood is defined experiential, but that experience is conceptualized primarily in terms of performativity. In this sense, Justine develops the experiential theory of gender previously deployed in both What Is Gender and Terfs.
I forget which video, but there's another one after the three mentioned in that blog post where she just goes off on a full-blown truscum tangent, and in a later video ("Opulence," from October, 2019), she doubles down by reading a quote from an unabashed transmedicalist (Buck Angel). After the ensuing Twitter drama, she had the nerve to make a nearly two-hour video "essay" about the horrors of being canceled. The story made goddamned Newsweek:
https://www.newsweek.com/youtuber-contrapoints-attacked-after-including-controversial-buck-angel-video-1466757Essence of Thought , a nonbinary trans youtuber has excellent analysis of it as well, and how her "apology" was pretty shit too.
everyone does this with almost everyone. Its like when people figure out AOC, a socdem who ran on socdem ideas and talks a socdem game is actually.... a socdem. People just assume if they like a person they must be a based ultra leftist comrade and they have to hide their power level but sometimes a shoe is just a shoe.
The only person who has ever pulled off hiding their power level was Fidel Castro. The number of people who sold out, betrayed the cause, or otherwise watered down their politics is orders of magnitudes more.
The big majority of the old sub let alone the general anglo online left thought she was an epic power level hiding socialist for years and it took months a months of her shitting the bed in various struggle sessions for the opinion to change somewhat against her even in "radical" spaces .Lets not pretend the "we all knew she was a liberal so this is expected" thing is true. No people didnt and no this wasnt
I didn't say we all knew, I'm saying it was wishful thinking that had more to do with the unmet emotional and social needs of internet leftists than anything she did or said, and that the sense of betrayal some feel is totally unwarranted.
the "i think its important because not everybody responds to a logical argument" line just dripping with fucking contempt for contra and her audience there lmao
It also feels very ideologically Hillary Clinton. If everyone were logical, they would come around to my enlightened third way. Thankfully we have Natalie with her silly dress up for the rest of you idiots.
Is this the full interview or the clip from the episode? I haven't watched it but the Chapos say in their episode about the Hillary show that it was obvious they cut Contra off right before she started explaining how the status quo wasn't fixing the problem they were talking about, which seems like exactly what they would do.
Which is why going and performing (because that is all it is in the end) on their platform will never allow you to speak any truths.
All she accomplished was tying herself to one of the most radioactive political figures of the decade.
I can't believe a media job person would be aristocratic and hang out with such people. You can rest assured that I, a humble and modest comments section hang out guy, will NEVER be an aristocrat and NEVER have a media job.
well this is teh dunk tank and a post about a big name breadtuber with huge audience (that 80% of the old sub and userbase stanned) rubbing shoulders with Hillary Clinton is the most natural thing to be here . Whats with all the sarcastic reddit energy "WOW i cant believe person did thing!!!" comments in this thread ?
Are people so insecure about the fact that they liked her or still have a soft spot for her that they feel the need to infantilize other people shitting on contrapoints doing buddy content with hilary fucking clinton in the dunk community ? No , no one expected something like this even a year ago
:100-com:
I feel like if we can recognize grandpa :chumpsky: as having some bad takes, it shouldn’t be hard to criticize Natalie. Also super weird implication that not having a platform makes it hypocritical or something to criticize someone who has a platform on their use of it.
Grandpa anarchist isn't same same as youtube treatgirl just cus she has more video essays than he has books
Chomsky didn't sell out the second he got mainstream attention...
You would think she would at least try with Warren first or something. I guess Contrapoints is just that much of a liberal.
I think this is a combination of Contrapoints being a liberal and being someone with terrible political instincts. That or she wants to become a CNN correspondent.
Then this ties back to me saying Contrapoints has poor political instincts lol
I guess Contrapoints is just that much of a liberal.
always was :astronaut-1:
You can rest assured that I, a humble and modest comments section hang out guy, will NEVER be an aristocrat and NEVER have a media job.
I mean, tru fax tho.
cringe af, but no need to link a transphobic patsoc wrecker (sun emoji = patsoc, highlighting irrelevant youtuber drama, intentionally using they / them pronouns for a binary trans woman to misgender her).
do better next time.
This comment is very wrong. They are neither a patsoc nor do they misgender anyone.
What are you referring to? This twitter user has had the sun emoji for longer than the patsoc horseshit
Meh, maybe i'm overly suspicious here. It just always rubs me the wrong way when out of all the breadtube libs, people always end up picking on the trans ones specifically.
Also nice how everybody suddenly starts dogpiling me here. Feels great.
I wasn't really intending to "dogpile" you I just don't really know how else to say what I said, which needed to be put clearly for the sake of anyone else here that might not check the details, without it being quite blunt.
There's no ill-intent towards you. People make mistakes around here all the time myself very much included in that. Please don't take it personally.
I dont think theyre picking on her because shes trans, but because she went on a Hillary Clinton show.
Probably because no one other bread liberal is doing a documentary with Hillary Clinton lol
If I recall correctly the sun itself doesnt mean patsoc (Its gorillas and suns in combination which are Infrareds whole schtick) also a cursory glance at the profile doesnt scream patsoc to me. OK I edited the comment guess the person in question isnt a transphobe. IF you see someone with a gorilla AND a sun you can bet they are a patsoc...also stuff like mechatankie is a dead giveaway.
Is using a neutral they transphobia? Ive been using they to refer to basically anyone and everyone including cis men and women
EDIT: She clarified further about the “they” to refer to streamers as plural https://mobile.twitter.com/zei_squirrel/status/1572018297377558528
Is using a neutral they transphobia?
If you're using it universally, it isn't. If you're using it for trans people expressly using gendered pronouns, it's a common form to express you do not really view them as valid without being too openly transphobic.
I think you wildly misinterpreted them regardless
https://mobile.twitter.com/zei_squirrel/status/1572018297377558528
Im not the person you want to ask about that. Im queer but I know very little about the nuances of pronouns in the english language. (not my mother tongue)
ambiguity :sadness:
but we don't really have anything better, genderless conlang when
There’s nastiness, sexism and transphobia shot through the entire hanzi system and I don’t see how to reform it without getting rid of it altogether.
Lmao yes we must abolish the Chinese languages.
Mod removed my post explaining that the Chinese "ta" isn't neutral whatsoever.
"The writing system must be reformed; we must move in the direction of a globally unified phonetic spelling system."
-- People's Daily, 20th of December, 1977
他 isn't neutral anymore, but it was until the 20th century. I don't think that's the reactionary part of your post though, so much as insisting that the entire writing system is full of "nastiness, sexism and transphobia" without further clarification.
她 is "she". The 女 part of the character means "woman". It is a pictograph of a woman holding a child. As if all women can have children. It's sexist and transphobic. I could go on, but suffice it to say that the entire hanzi system of characters has this shit baked into it and none of it will ever go away without outside action. Mao tried but couldn't get it done.
You're confusing 她 with 好, which is where the whole "woman holding a child" etymology comes from. 也 isn't a child. In modern Chinese, it means "also" while in classical Chinese, it's used as an emphatic final particle like modern Japanese よ. The radical for child is 子, as you can see in the oracle bone script which looks like a pictogram of a child raising their arms.
Both versions of 他 and 她 are phono-semantic characters like the vast majority of Chinese characters, where one radical denotes phonetic meaning while another radical denotes semantic meaning. In this case, 也 is the phonetic radical. It doesn't make sense in Mandarin (you're comparing ta1 vs ye3), but in old Chinese, 他 and 也 were a lot similar in pronunciation.
女 doesn't have anything related to children going by the oracle bone script either. Neither does 母, which means mother in modern Chinese.
Mao tried but couldn’t get it done.
Because it was an absolutely terrible idea that almost no one else other than weirdos who stan the Gang of 4 too hard during the Cultural Revolution would agree with. And it's quite convenient that "reactionary" hanzi has to be discarded for the "progressive" script used by imperialists that sacked the Old Summer Palace during the Century of Humiliation.
You literally just need to replace the problematic characters with new characters. Like, you don't have to ditch the entire system. What kind of ultra nonsense is that?
Absolutely wild that white libs will propose in the guize of being “leftist”
Like eliminating an entire language is cultural genocide not inclusiveness.
The vast majority of critiques over Chinese characters is cope by Westerners who suck at memorizing and writing Chinese characters.
"Wah, my hand hurts from practicing Chinese characters, why can't they ditch hanzi for pinyin?"
And the English word "woman" comes from the social role of "wife". Should we discard that as sexist as well? How many people actually look at 女 and think "that's a mother, and cannot refer to trans women."?
probably some? i've seen 1-2 people unironically suggest we stop using the word "robot" because it's etymology has something to do with slavery,
In Chinese robot combat (like King of Bots and This is Fighting Robots) they are sometimes called 机器人 which is robot (machine-person) and sometimes 铁甲, or Iron Armor. I think that's pretty dope but maybe it's also problematic.
huh, that seems like personification to me to differentiate with machines that don't appear to move on their own (i think some other languages the words for self-motive things are along the lines of "x with a soul") but i don't know any of the other social or etymological context that might make it bad.
i liked those shows. not really used to chinese TV editing norms but there were some great fights in there. ha! Jonathan Pearce saying "iron armorment" would be hilarious.
The (lamentable) fact that Mao's writing system reform failed is probably evidence enough that hanzi is unlikely to be abandoned in our lifetimes.
For digital communication at least, you can convert hanzi to pinyin and back very easily, that's what I do when I don't just need ASAP machine translation...
I don't want genderless though - I'm a woman and would like to be affirmatively treated as such. assuming that degendering is appropriate on my behalf is just as much intentional misgendering.
yes, default to neutral choices when referring to unknown or unspecified people, or for those whose pronouns you do not know. but a new genderless language dropped wholecloth on the present solves literally nothing about either sexism or transphobia.
the problem isn't language - it's that people think we're women and not-women, men and not-men, at the same time! better ways to hide that fact without addressing the contradictions at the heart of society is a defense of the status quo, a way to sweep the problems of the present under the rug.
yes, I'm coming off strong about an innocuous comment but this is liberalism and Combat Liberalism.
the problem in this particular case where there was ambiguity between someone referring to breadtubers as a group they or misgendering a woman with singular-they is absolutely a language problem, and my wistful dreaming of that not being an issue is not meant to address the larger social issues.
if you know someone's pronouns, use them. they/them is only correct if someone explicitly tells you they're comfortable with them or if you're speaking about someone non-specific or a third-party who's pronouns you don't know. transphobes routinely address binary trans people with they/them in order to misgender with plausible deniability.
i have the chipmunk person mentally filed as annoying, but i don't think they're a "patsoc" are they?
I've followed zei_squirrel for a while now and all they really do is take some ongoing news item and tweet out a relevant Parenti and/or Norman Finkelstein and/or Malcolm X clip.
I just re-read the twitter thread because people keep replying to me defending that PoS and no, i do not think they're talking about breadtubers in general, as no other breadtuber / leftist stremer / etc. has appeared on Hillary Clinton's show.
Also this person apparently is friends with Glenn Greenwald and is praised in the replies for refusing to "throw him under the bus". I'm feeling more gaslit with every reply i'm getting here.
I don't even know what's real anymore. I don't know if i can trust my observations or if i'm imagining transphobia anywhere. I think that's more devestating to me than having been clearly in the wrong. I could live with having been wrong about this, with having been too trigger-happy, we all make mistakes and sometimes you're just stretched too thin and bark up the wrong tree, that happens and i'd just admit i've been wrong and apologize. No biggie, i have no problem with that. But this nagging self doubt, that's just awful.
FWIW, you're not alone in reading this as transphobia. There are other people on twitter thinking the same thing. I think both interpretations are reasonable and these tweets are just (unknowably intentionally) ambiguous. Zei has a reasonable defense because they use "these people" after a couple tweets, and they deny using they/them for Natalie when called out.
intentionally using they / them pronouns for a binary trans woman to misgender her
I see this a lot and hate how it doesn't get called out enough
intentionally using they / them pronouns for a binary trans woman to misgender her).
huhhh, isnt they/them supposed to work as a gender neutral pronoun?? Ive used it all the time when I did not know
Others have already given real explanations but in a lighter tone, see Alice from :wtyp: 's Twitter, she lists her pronouns as "she/her, or they/them if you're mad at me"
When I was early in transition, everyone else was "he" and "she", but I was "they" to anyone who didn't want to acknowledge me as a woman.
It's totally a thing for cis people to us a "neutral" they only for trans people regardless of their gender.
yeah honestly it seems like people are mad over nothing on this one
no my pronouns are she/her. being called they/them feels dehumanizing - if you know my pronouns, don’t use the wrong ones intentionally.
it's something I actually tried for a while as a compromise in early transition and it quite literally made me feel like an alien. it doesn't quite deaden me inside the way he/him does but I'm not any more comfortable with it.
they/them is routinely used to intentionally misgender binary trans people while protecting plausible deniability. don't be a lib about this.
no my pronouns are she/her. being called they/them feels dehumanizing - if you know my pronouns, don't use the wrong ones intentionally.
there's cases were that's appropriate (referring to a group, referring to people where pronouns are unclear, referring to people who actually use they/them pronouns), there's also cases were it is used intentionally by people who do not want to recognize trans women as women. i don't know how much more often i'll have to explain this here, just keep it going, it's really fun and not tiresome at all to have to defend and explain myself all day long in a supposedly trans-inclusive space just because i made one angry off-hand remark about some shithead on twitter.
Usually people will identify themselves as she/them or he/them if they are cool with both.
I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when our parasocial infatuation with Natalie Wynn fails, when we forsake our Patreon accounts and break all bonds of Twitter followership, but it is not this day. An hour of donut emojis and corncobs when the Age of Hexbear comes crashing down, but it is not this day!
Oh lol I'm not subbed to the patreon she doesn't need my money
I'll admit I used to be subbed to the Chapo patreon for like 6 months when I first started listening
lol, neither am I. I just wanted to do an Aragorn-speech shitpost because I do genuinely appreciate some of the content she's put out over the years, and I hope she doesn't end up suiciding herself by two gunshots to the back of the head and rolling herself up in a carpet because she tried to tell the Clintons -- to their faces -- that the status quo is bad ackshually.
Can't wait for the :funny-clown-hammer: and :hillary-apartment: collab!
Hbomberguy & Skullboy wouldn't have ever done this to us :deeper-sadness:
They/them should be fine as a default.
Assholes can use they/them with the intention of missgendering just like bullies can use the term "friend" while being anything but friendly. Not good enough of a reason to not use the gender neutral terms though.