Every time I think I've found the dumbest comment in this thread, I scroll down one more line......
Wasn't she Greek? This actress doesn't look anything like Stav!
:deeper-sadness: tfw no round Greek god in your Netflix drama
Insert oh-so-hilarious /r/Balkanmemes joke about Greeks actually being black
Once saw some "debate" where a Greek guy and a Turkish guy argued about which one looked more Jewish and which one more Aryan
I mean the idea that Africa automatically equals black skin is straight up ignorant though. Look at pretty much all of North Africa. Cleopatra wasn't even African or Egyptian in the first place anyways. Greek/Macedonian I think, it's even in the name.
This show just seems like the usual Hotep nonsense a few African American celebrities like to get involved with. Directed by Jada Pinkett Smith, so makes sense.
I don't know why people do this when they could just make stories about the many real black African figures in history. Imagine a series about Mansa Musa or great Zimbabwe. A modern Shaka Zulu remake.
A modern Shaka Zulu remake.
I would watch the shit out of a Zulu-Anglo War movie or series rather correctly casts the Zulus as protagonists and the English as evil colonialism.
You can watch the original one for free on YouTube. I watched it as a kid, so I can't remember if it's good or not. I remember the lead actor being very convincing.
https://youtu.be/UwbthBr5MuA
Anyone who believes it ignorant yes. South Africa just seems like a bad example to use in this case for some reason.
South Africa is an incredibly bad example yeah. Especially Elon Musk on top of that.
Really weird that Reddit just defaults to that.
Its just weird because there's an actual term for the Afrocentric ideology that states ancient Egypt was actually full of black people (Hotepism) but the redditors default to a country with a colonial history that had our own much worse version of racial segregation last up until the mid 90s.
Especially Elon Musk on top of that.
My go-to response to that is that Elon is an African-American in the same sense that Japanese people are Pacific Islanders.
Technically true in the strictest technical sense? Yes.
Completely not what people mean when they say those words? Also yes.
God I want a Mansa Musa's Hajj prestige TV show so badly. Drama, comedy, I don't care, I WANT IT.
racists when race-blind casting is used to hire exclusively white people for a story taking place in idk africa pre-colonization
:so-true:
racists when race-blind casting is used to hire a single black person
:pigmask-off:
I mean it's very weird to use race blind casting for the purposes of doing hotep things to satisfy the producer of the series (Jada Pinkett Smith). And it's not like people from the middle east or north Africa are portrayed positively in most western media, they're most likely cast as terrorists in most shows and movies. On top of that Cleopatra wasn't even ethnically Egyptian or African.
i know almost nothing about jada pinkett smith and tbh i would prefer to keep it that way; celebrity gossip is not really my shit.
And it’s not like people from the middle east or north Africa [etc]
yes you're completely correct here, that said i think it's fair to say that they most likely wouldn't be hiring an actress from either of those places. they'd likely just have cast someone from wisconsin or whatever and called it a day
On top of that Cleopatra wasn’t even ethnically Egyptian or African.
:shrug-outta-hecks: i am perfectly aware of this but i simply do not care because the people throwing tantrums over it are all conveniently the dumbest people on the planet and making fun of them brings light into my life. however, i do agree with you entirely elsewhere in this thread, telling actual Black stories would be infinitely more interesting than Yet Another Roman Empire circlejerk
e: hopefully this didn't come off as combative btw, that wasn't my intent
Is there any actual evidence that hotep ideology was involved in this decision?
Hoteps believe all of the people in ancient Egypt were black. Saying "I don't care what they told you in school, Cleopatra is black" (which the trailer of the show does) is hotep ideology 101.
I just watched the trailer and that's a bit of a stretch. It's literally a talking head quote where someone relays something their grandmother told them - hardly proof the show was made by hoteps. Even if it is though, saying that this is clearly because Plinkett-Smith is a hotep and she made it to push that ideology is just speculation.
I don’t think anyone is asking the important question here, is there going to be homoerotic tension between Julius Caesar and Mark Antony?
No, because Mark Antony was taken by curio. Read the Philipics :cicero:
ya i knew this would happen the moment i saw a descendant of the ptolemaic dynasty potrayed as black. admittedly cleopatra's skin color was definitely less important to egyptians against the probably more salient fact that... uh... cleopatra was a ptolemy, but still, it's like netflix wanted to rile up the redditors with this one.
I think it’s reasonable to say if you’re trying to portray something as historical it should be cast appropriately or not involve aliens.
If it’s historical fiction or fantasy there shouldn't be much of an issue.
Would we be able to find anyone inbred enough to play Cleopatra though?
there are still hapsburgs alive they probably need something to do these days
It's nice if you're going for diamond-hard historical fiction, but race (and more recently gender) - blind casting for Shakespeare (including his histories) and theatre more generally has identified some great performers who would otherwise not get a chance in those roles.
In any case these assholes would totally be up in arms at Cleopatra portrayed as someone from the eastern Mediterranean.
I mean we're like 90% sure Cleopatra was virtually all Greek and Iranian but, as far as I know, we can't say we definitively know she wasn't part African
Was she Iranian? Maybe from a Ptolemy marrying a Seleucid?
"Not everyone in Africa is black"
Oh you mean like the Berbers?
"No, the Dutch"
:hasan-smash:
there are a couple of people annoyed with the fixation on cleopatra in particular when she's the tail end of a dynasty founded by basically a greek satrap (comparisons to colonialism have been made which i don't subscribe to but whatever) which is understandable i think: if you're an egypt nut you're probably screaming to netflix to cover basically anything else like the kushite dynasty if netflix is starved for portraying black pharaohs
but also, this looks kinda shitty anyway, it's not really important enough to get mad about. i don't know if will smith's wife has any business doing egyptology but my heart says probably no.
Cleopatra was a Greekkk colonizer.
This kinda feels like Hamilton (if way less egregious). Don't try to rehabilitate the founding fathers by making them black, if you want to write media about an 18th century black people fighting a revolution Haiti is right there.
Similarly with this, there actually were black people in ancient history. I want stories to be told about them.
Moreover, stop adapting the same shit from Roman history over and over. Roman history was really long, pick something else.
Similarly with this, there actually were black people in ancient history. I want stories to be told about them.
Nah, the hoteps won't have that, I think during the BLM movement in 2020 they were going on about how Beethoven was actually black. There are some serious brainworms among African American celebs and hoteps. I think some people in the NBA were heavily involved in this stuff.
You also can have accurate Cleopatra AND black protagonists. Heck AC Origins did it
idk they're using the word "documentary" and having the history heads talking alongside dramatization--the absolute worst form of 'educational' content--so its going to suck regardless.
i don't understand the instinct to (re!)make a thing to educate people but then compromise the educational content to make it more entertaining? just make a fiction :debord-tired:
It's really silly when you consider that we don't actually know what skin color Cleopatra even had for sure. She was probably on the whiter side, but Jesus (the real life figure, not just as the one presented in religion) not being portrayed as more middle eastern with browner skin never seems to be an issue.
That being said, when they're using the word documentary they should probably stay with the more likely conclusion.
The lineage is pretty well documented. She's Greek. Their really isn't any other interpretation to take from the lineage and historical records that exist.
To the best of my knowledge the father's side is well known, the mother is what's not entirely certain.
I'm not really going to waste time on it and college level history was several decades ago.
Like others have said online. Theirs so many other black African historical figures that could of been picked. That's the extent to me caring about this.
I think you are mixing her with her half sister, with a different mother. She was found to have African ancestry
Following her family marriage history most peeps agree it's a mix of Greek and likely Iranian given her family intermarried with the Seleucid Dynasty. So she prolly looks similar to all the realistic depictions of Jesus being olive/darker skinned as people believe he was partially Greek. She was prolly pale as all heck though being she wasn't out and about without umbrellas and staff/serfs and kind of weird looking due to the inbreeding of the Ptolemies having been going on for several hundred years.
The reason for the Iranian connection is due to Nicator's descendants intermarrying post Persian conquest and partial integration of remnant Persian nobles into the eventual Seleucid dynastic system. Would it make her part Iranian in the modern sense of today? No, but from the perspective of her own time you had a lot of intermarrying between the post Alexandrian successor states to reinforce their "legitimacy" by inserting themselves into previous noble lines. Either way though Cleopatra is mainly just an inbred Greek putting on Egyptian airs.
Cleopatra can either be seen as the first one with enough respect for her subjects to learn the language, or the first one desperate enough to try. Very Catherin the Great in that sense
So just to clear the air, there is a tiny, tiny bit of non-Greek heritage if you squint. But it’s mainly Greek and then more Greek.
True on that (though the Sogdians are considered Iranian or at least proto-Iranian given it's actually a blanket term for any of the many ethnic and culture groups around the former Persian Empire and especially on the Iranian Peninsula). Overall though yeah it's similar to a white person claiming some form of minority ancestry because they're 1/16th something or other.
Cleopatra can either be seen as the first one with enough respect for her subjects to learn the language, or the first one desperate enough to try.
Honestly I think that is the most interesting aspect of discussion on Cleopatra and whether or not her and the Ptolemy Dynasty constitute cultural appropriation.
The go to actor for anything remotely related to ancient European is British.
They should stop being cowards and start hiring New Yorkers and New Jerseyans to play ancient European and fantasy characters
They should stop being cowards and start hiring New Yorkers and New Jerseyans to play ancient European and fantasy characters
For all its... uh... issues.... Death of Stalin was funny because they used many different accents for the various characters in the movie instead of the usual "make everyone sound british"
They should start hiring Bostonites. Bill Burr as Cleopatra would be a bold fucking move.
Funny how you never hear these guys foaming at the mouth for historical accuracy whenever Jesus is cast as a pale-skinned, blue-eyed Europoid.
I think the only watchable documentaries on Netflix was the terracotta army of Qin Shi Huangdi, the rest are just ww2 psychoanalysis of hitler and the nazi and ancient alien adjacent shit
