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"Four years ago, I was baffled as to why Hillary supporters and others would vote for her. I didn't understand why they didn't understand what's at stake and why they would support the political establishment crushing this country.
We keep yelling about capitalism, the crumbling state of America's unions, trans rights, police brutality, healthcare reform, and climate change to no avail. What I have recently realized, is that they don't share the same underlying goals and motivations as us.
I think it's safe to say that we see politics as a means to an end. To influence real life outcome because the people in power have effects [over] real peoples lives.
For the Hillary/Biden people, they don't share this. For them, politics is about affirming an identity. That identity is some morally superior, pro-establishment, support of capitalism. Voting for a third party doesn't allow them to do this.
They care about who everyone else thinks they are. They want to signal how "moderate", how "reasonable," how "righteous" they are to the rest of the world.
We want to make a difference. They want to make a point.
We care about what happens to people's lives. They care about how they feel about themselves.
That is why they don't care about winning."
This is a perfect rebuttal to that liberal vomit.
I’m going to post this in that thread and see what happens, wish me luck!
Had to post from my horny alt because my shitposting account was already banned I guess
"You can just replace "Berners" with " Hillary/Biden voters" and make it true.
It doesn't work that way, TROLL.
PS: keep fucking FAPPING."
About as weak a response as I expected
It’s literally not possible for a liberal to put forward a coherent argument against a leftist, so they just fight back like middle schoolers lol
The fact that they think voting Biden is a means to the end goes to show how little they actually understand american politics. The reason we don't participate is because no matter what it's a tick tock. There is no means to an end by voting.
There is no means to an end by voting.
Voting can do good things; voting for a senile conservative because he's not Trump won't.
There's no means to an end by voting in America at the very least.
Maybe I just don't know what means to an end means but I don't think even local elections are gonna instill socialism lol
Definitely not by themselves, but revolution requires many mechanisms.
I'm not saying not to vote I'm just saying it ain't a means to an end
If it helps it's a means to an end, as opposed to being just for aesthetics. I'm pretty sure that's what everyone means by means to an end, not that it's the single most important thing but that it does serve a purpose in the grand scheme of things.
Electing progressive DAs and attorney general's has a tremendous impact on both the lives of people going through the system as well as the ability to go after corrupt business folks who are fucking over the working class.
Electing left wing mayor's and governor's can also be meaningful as a lot of these folks have unilateral control over an obscene amount of stuff.
This said, campaigning for a single legislative seats is a total waste of time unless the campaign is more about knocking out a committee chairman or something else along those lines.
Sure there is, if you get a decent candidate or you get a good issue (e.g., marijuana legalization) on the ballot. We shouldn't mistake shitty choices in many elections for elections doing absolutely, positively nothing 100% of the time.
How are they not? Ballot initiatives in particular directly impact whatever issue you're working on.
Means to an end to me means instilling communism or socialism but to these libs I imagine it just means getting rid of conservatives which voting does not do. At least it hasn't historically in america.
Means to an end to me means instilling communism or socialism
There are plenty of intermediate goals -- that would in some way move towards this -- that can be accomplished through elections. For example, any socialist or communist project would handle crime in a way that isn't horrifically racist and unjust. Legalizing pot would move us substantially closer to that end goal, as would electing local DAs who aren't just trying to railroad as many poor people and people of color as they can.
More broadly, the best way to convince people that a better world is possible is to start making the world better, the best way to get people to join your organization is to show that your organization can accomplish something real, and if you can do nothing else even just talking about better ideas in political spaces forces those ideas to be taken seriously.
This is a horribly defeatist outlook given that voting doesn't really take that long if you vote early (I have more skeptical opinion on electoral organizing though).
This said, if you can win a majority in a legislative body or win an executive office (mayor of a major city, governor or president) that lends their ear to on the ground activists a lot of good can be achieved.
I can think of a lot of huge wins that have happened, things that very much so materially improve the lives of the working poor and otherwise marginalized (as opposed to whatever these folks are saying about Biden). Things like rent control and other substantial affordable housing measures, defunding the police, universal Pre-K and free college, significant raises to the minimum wage and so on.
I'm not saying you shouldn't vote i am just saying it's not a means to an end (communism or whatever you believe in in particular.) There's way more that needs to be done outside of the voting booth. I vote locally whenever I can and it's definitely materially benefitted me but I acknowledge it's gonna get the left almost nowhere
Yeah the purpose of voting is entirely about advancing social democracy and in no way is going to end capitalism at large. I definitely think there are some things that can advance the socialist cause that can be achieved through electoralism (public funding of elections is a big one if socialists can get that funding, alongside socialist elected officials being able to hire a full time staff that can further advance the socialist program.
Fuck you, I held my nose and voted for Hillary last time. And what did I get for it? The opportunity to vote for Biden! Thanks, but no thanks.
And still being called a traitor to the party and being blamed for her loss.
And a whole-party attempt to kill Bernie in 2020 that involved (a) the CIA breaking out their heart attack gun and (b) Obama rigging the primary at the 11th hour.
Do you think this person actually believes this? Like, this is exactly oppositely wrong, based on all historical and present evidence.
Every word of it. Liberals genuinely think they are the Messiahs of justice. This is what happens to your brain when you helplessly cling to idealism as the seas of material reality capsize your political worldview. You cling to the throttle helplessly like the captain of the Titanic, even though the engines have already been swamped. You scream at the people fleeing on life boats or jumping overboard as the water climbs to neck level.
The root of the problem is that they are incapable of divorcing what's good for the oppressed from what's good for the integrity of the liberal institutions. They remain convinced that the liberal institutions alone are responsible for bringing about civilized society, and that advances in social justice could not possibly take place without being formalized by these institutions.
As a result, they cannot comprehend the Leftist goal of exposing the illegitimacy of these institutions as a necessary step to bringing about a more egalitarian world. They interpret all attacks on these institutions as attacks on the engine of social progress itself, and by extension, attacks on marginalized and oppressed people. All while the wars continue, carbon emissions continue, starvation and medical neglect continues, and the cops keep killing minorities and getting away with it.
I saw you posted that in their thread and got rock hard.
This Reddit account is relatively new and I might as well break it in either by getting banned or presenting a rebuttal :)
It’s a very well-thought out and to the point post. No lies detected, and I really hope they read it and either internalize that it’s true, or get super upset that someone is trying to attack them from the left and making them look at their own morals.
You cling to the throttle helplessly like the captain of the Titanic, even though the engines have already been swamped. You scream at the people fleeing on life boats or jumping overboard as the water climbs to neck level.
Ha they are far more narcissistic than that. They are the musicians still playing as people scream, jump away, punch each other to get into the lifeboats etc. Like the IRL Titanic musicians they want to be praised for their "heroism" even though they fought for and accomplished nothing.
what's sad is that we also speak for them, and by getting it so completely backwards they are not just discounting "leftists" but themselves.
Or it's a nicely composed bit of propaganda to ratchet up hate against us. There was a lot of this sort of stuff posted on Kos during the last primary, then all of those dedicated posters promptly disappeared once the job was done. Brooklyn Bad Boy, izzat you?
There's a subset of them that genuinely believe this, but exactly zero of them would be posting to that subreddit. These folks are often young or not especially politically engaged, they just don't remember how horribly fickle and inconsistent the democratic caucus is which makes it so absolutely nothing gets done.
We want to make a difference.
What difference is Joe Fucking Biden going to make?
Joe Biden is the greatest man to ever run for President. He is our Messiah. He is logic and reason given physical form. He is a Civil Rights Champion. He is a War Hero. He is a Bipartisan Juggernaut who will forge the foundation of a glorious One World Government where we all agree to disagree but work together toward Neoliberal Utopia.
You people think you are voting for a man. Nah. You are voting for A GOD. This ballot is not a thing that shall determine whether Joe Biden is ascendant. Biden's ascendancy is made manifest by the Will Of The Popular Vote. No. This is a choice you make within yourself. It is an opportunity to wash your soul clean from the sins of Failing Hillary. If you do not perform The Vote as penance, you will never receive Absolution, and the God King Biden shall turn his gaze from you. You shall be cast into the fiery pit of Venezuela where you shall await the coming Judgement Day. In the Battle of Armageddon, between the Nightmare King of Xi Jinping Thought and the Holy Christ-King Anointed by our Glorious Federal Reserve Chairman, all shall be called a final time to stand on the Capital Hill. There your wickedness will be judges and your fate sealed for All Eternity.
What weighs on your heart is the evils of idolatry, the sin of pride, the hubris instilled in one not old enough to get a Real Job and take care of one's self. I have called three times. I have begged you to cast them aside. My pleas have fallen on deaf ears. Now I must join the Disciples of Biden. I no longer have time for your earthly vices, your carnal venality, your sloth, or your envy. My soul is free from guilt and my body is free to travel to Him Who Shall Triumph.
Know that I have grown beyond you, petty creature of self-delusion. When I am gone, you will never replace my tender heart or my inspired wisdom. You shall grow weak and frail and become dust, while I shall grow only more luminous in my virtue until I am Light Itself.
So good bye, BernieBros. Good bye until we see each other again on the Capital Hill on Judgement Day. I do not relish knowing you have doomed yourself. I only pray to Biden Most High that your time in Venezuela will bring you the wisdom that you now so clearly lack.
This is the end for us.
I'm leaving.
I don't even care who you vote for.
I'm just going to leave this flier here on your doorstep.
I don't even care if you read it.
Biden was totally going to do the GND, but you blew it.
Getting in my car now.
Everything that happens next is your fault.
(but if you come around and want to phone bank or donate or something there's information on how to do that on the flier good bye for real this time byeeeeeeeee)
I dont know if this is an OC bit or not but it made me think of this
https://youtu.be/lh6xtZjt5cY
The guy who gave us the blueprint for the ACA just said he'd vote for a Trump SCOTUS pick. The Dems are losers who half-ass everything and gave Trump a shiny fleet of drones to boot. Fuck Off to every lib scold in the fucking universe. We know exactly what's at stake. Also for the ten-thousandth red-in-the-face-and-ass time this has nothing to do with morality. Leftism is borne out of rational self interest. Goddamnit. Fuck. Fuck.
Oh yeah I totally agree that Capitalism is morally reprehensible and a more humane alternative is immediately desired. I just like to stress that we aren't driven by some moralistic idealism. Labor produces all value. Labor should control its political and economic destiny. (but yeah its also nice being on the side that has views humanity with dignity and love)
Supreme court, healthcare reform, LGBT/reproductive rights, climate change
They can't name a single Biden policy that addresses any of these things, because he doesn't have any.
if we tell them that we're voting for Hillary because it's hashtag her turn, will their heads explode?
I care about the supreme court, healthcare reform, LGBT/reproductive rights, climate change, etc. I DGAF about the election because neither of them give a fuck about making any of these things better.
E - etc being the needless slaughter of farmers, women, and children for existing on top of future oil fields.
