is the bar that low? :brow:
My wife said what made her consider a first date with me was that when she said she was unemployed because of disability my next question wasn't about that, but what she likes to do for fun. That was it. I didn't ask prying personal questions within the first 5 minutes of matching with her and she was like "wow how considerate lets give this one a chance".
On a somewhat similar subject, you know what's fucked up? I was interacting with this weirdo online who asked me why I'm a feminist, but here's the catch: he assumed that I'm a cisgender man in the process for some reason. In no way, shape, or form did I even indicate that I am a cis man.
Simply put, I explained to him some very surface-level ideologically feminist shit about seeing a lot of value in advocating for women's rights and tearing down the construct of patriarchy as a whole, and with that assumption that I am a cis man saying these things, he baselessly accused me of only saying that to try to "simp" for women and supporting feminism with ulterior motives to have sex with them.
Two points:
- That assumption is so wrong that it's laughable; I'm a transfeminine non-binary person who could directly benefit from the abolition of patriarchy as an individual.
- It scares the shit out of me that, even if I were a cis man, the only way this asshole could interpret someone being a male feminist is the automatic assumption that they are pretending to be so just to exploit women for sex. This is actually concerning (and obviously projection) because it shows that there are men who'd go as far to believe that it's out of the perception of a man to simply just support feminism for the sake of agreeing with it ideologically, like "You think women should have rights? No way a man could possibly ever think that! You're just hoping they'll sleep with you for saying that!"
Yeah, I read posts online about guys lying about their awful politics to women sometimes and it grosses me out.
Yeah this has to be extremely prevalent. Whenever I see a couple whose socio-political beliefs are counter to each other, I wonder how anyone could spend their lives with people who ideologically hate them…
It would make sense that it was a bait and switch and sunken cost kicked in. “Stay together for the kids” type situations or worse.
I absolutely have no idea how these people make it work. I couldn't date anyone to the right of democratic socialism, and even that may be being generous. Truly revolutionary, radical leftists are obviously what I'm hoping for.
My wife is more of a left-lib or a social democrat then anything else, but then so was I when we met. It's doable if you are compatible in other ways. Although I certainly understand wanting to prioritize politics, it's also sadly true that having good politics doesn't necessarily make someone compatible with you for a variety of other reasons, and (only speaking for myself) people who I really connect with on a deep level and who I am also romantically interested in are already exceedingly rare.
I agree, but this is kind of a "squares and rectangles" type of deal for me. Although not everyone who aligns with my politics will be compatible with me, anyone who is truly compatible with me will have a decent degree of alignment with my politics.
I speak from experience, as my former partner with whom I recently broke up was a lot more libby than I am for sure, and that was a major contributing factor to our breakup, among other things. I had no doubt that she had her heart in the right place for whatever she believed politically, but it's something that I just could not see myself having any negotiability on. Mind you, I loved and admired her very deeply, but once these differences entered the frame, that love began to dwindle more and more with time.
Everyone's different in how they handle their own view of compatibility, so it's not something that could be universally applicable across all people in the dating scene. Some people will care a lot about having political compatibility to a point where anything else is a dealbreaker, and others are a lot more relaxed about it, to a point where I've heard of socialists dating conservatives.
For me? My existence is insanely "political," being black, neurodivergent, non-binary, pansexual, transfeminine, etc. These intersections politicized my existence so much that I wasn't able to hate myself or even remotely perceive myself as a human being deserving of basic rights and respect until I embraced radical leftism, and I'd like nothing besides a partner who espouses the same or similar ideals.
others are a lot more relaxed about it, to a point where I've heard of socialists dating conservatives.
This is something I truly cannot imagine
These intersections politicized my existence so much that I wasn't able to hate myself or even remotely perceive myself as a human being deserving of basic rights and respect until I embraced radical leftism, and I'd like nothing less than a partner who espouses the same or similar ideals.
Totally understandable! I hope you find the radical partner of your dreams
Agreed, back when I was using dating apps I had to make it clear what I was on about politically because I wasn’t gonna waste my time going on dates with anyone that didn’t allign with me.
I literally know several married women in my life that are still together with their husbands for that exact reason.
To the point where that seems to be more common than not... scary to think about.
And we wonder why so many women are choosing to avoid marriage altogether
Though I can understand wariness around men for sure, I'm not entirely sure if female separatism is anything but a niche. It frightens me too because it often comes with bioessentialist ideas that are not only transphobic but homophobic and biphobic as well. It's also an overwhelmingly white tendency as well, ignoring that the racism that women of color experience from white "feminists" makes separatism not as ideal as it is in the shortsighted view of privileged liberal white women.
Also, to be honest, I don't know if any female separatist organizations put into practice were ever actually trans-inclusive, and even if they were, it raises concerning questions when you go beyond trans women and start thinking about where trans men and non-binary people factor into that kind of stuff. Excluding trans men, for instance, is "affirming," but it neglects the fact that they are deeply oppressed by patriarchy despite being men.
Female separatism has always had this "women distancing themselves from men" standpoint without a coherent analysis of intersectionality across race and genderqueer identity, and it has even consisted of heterosexual women who feign lesbianism especially since the height of such movements took place during a time where people didn't properly comprehend that sexual orientation is not a choice.
Some women of color have made this criticism that I made about race regarding the fact that white women are members of a privileged race, so they themselves do not need to find solidarity in fighting against living through racism, but women of color absolutely need to do that, and that often means finding solidarity in fighting racism with men who are the same marginalized race as them. This is why womanist groups were seldom, if ever, fond of separatism to give an example.
I was out with some colleagues, most of them younger than me. there was a discussion about their husbands doing dumb stuff and how they, as a couple, had already had "the talk" about how their lives were far too entertwined with multiple kids, assets and finances to ever consider divorce anymore. it was so grim to me. I made a joke about "Metal Marriage... til DEATH do us part" and got laughs.
also, being older, I've known people who said the same shit and were divorced like 5 years later.
as a child of divorced parents, the way some people talk about their marriages gives me anxiety.
My mom moved hundreds of miles away as soon as my sister graduated high school 🙃
Your second point is so good.
It starts before you can even read. Even as a wee lad I remember any time I interacted with girls, my parents or some other parents would make a stupid comment about us dating. This shit happened all the way through high school. I never understood it, like why can't I just be friends with them?
Then the majority of those wee lads grow up into men that have known women as nothing more than some thing to be acquired.
Well, the second point exists because there ARE men that solely support women's rights because they want to have casual sex with them. I know, I've met them in bars and it is pretty clear their support for women's liberation is literally only skin deep, as in they only seek women's sexual liberation so that more women will want to have sex with them. It's somewhere in the line of 'All women are either whores or angels', and they are looking to create more angels (women who want to sleep with them).
Now, that being said, these kinds of guys are pretty few and far between, but are seen as ubiquitous and constant voices driving the discourse within media (see South Park, Metalocalypse, and multiple sitcoms such as Two and a Half Men or 30 Rock). I'd go so far as to say that for the past 30 years or so, that has been the mainstream and online comedy trope about male feminists. Once again, people have mistaken the heightened voice of a media archetype written primarily by non-feminist voices as feminist. Literally mixing up reality and media fantasy.
Edit: It's not nearly as prevalent as 'guy who completely misrepresents his politics to his girlfriend', but that rarely gets talked about.
I hate to admit it, but you're right. I find that's exactly why this loser immediately jumped to such a conclusion. These kinds of men will project this mentality because of them thinking "If I identified as a feminist, I'd definitely be doing it to be deceptive of women." Not so coincidentally, these are the same men that accuse feminism of being a "female supremacist" or "man-hating movement." Like, my brother in Christ, if you don't want women to hate you, stop being so damn hateable.
Yeah, I ground all of my criticisms of mainstream bourgeoisie feminism within feminist theory, but that is very confusing to the majority of cishet men, who because of having been fed hundreds of hours of propaganda, have absolutely zero idea what actual feminism even is, looks like or sounds like. I honestly feel like an asshole sometimes for even criticizing it, but a consumerist non-liberatory feminist position doesn't actually help anybody dismantle patriarchy so idk what to do.
Yeah, men are always projecting their hatred of women into other men all the time.
As a very intersectional enby, I'm always critical of bourgeois liberal feminism for obvious reasons. It's so shortsighted, unhelpful, and has no coherent sense of theory that will truly liberate all who suffer under patriarchy. I make a lot of criticisms of "liberal feminism" that will turn heads and get people to think that I'm some kind of conservative or TERF, but the way I see it, I actually make such criticisms mainly because I'm extremely far from being either a conservative or a TERF.
Such is the life of those with coherent political views that are not represented even on academic surveys.
Well, the second point exists because there ARE men that solely support women's rights because they want to have casual sex with them.
Let Ethereals be here
When my friend, his kids and I were out getting groceries, an older woman asked my friend "Are you babysitting today?" They answered "I'm a dad, I'm parenting" in a way that made it clear that this was not the first time they've been asked this (they confirmed it was fairly common actually). I asked some of my other guy friends if they got that question before too, and they all said yes, at least once. The bar does not get higher after marriage/kids culturally
They answered "I'm a dad, I'm parenting"
That answer is 420.6969% correct. It also reveals how fucked up our understanding/views of cishet relationships are, it's really bad to think that proper child-rearing somehow a burden. Taking care of children should be something we celebrate not something we mock with these sorts of jokes.
I don't have the knowledge to articulate this thought and I'm sure other big dawg leftists throughout history have already done so much better than I could. It's really fucked up that we see parenting (particularly when father's do active fatherhood-ing in public) in modern life. I don't have the language for it, but it's just plainly bad how we look at parenting.
I don't have the theory or the background or the experience to talk on parenthood but as an outside observer, I have always found it weird that all childcare-ing (particularly in public) is coded as "women's work", and often that "women's work" is outsourced to poorer women by richer women. Which is super fucked up.
I'm sure other big dawg leftists throughout history have already done so much better than I could
Engels, Sankara, a little Mao, probably others too
it's really bad to think that proper child-rearing somehow a burden
I’m probably misapplying dialectical materialism here, but whatever it’s kinda fun: there are inherent contradictions even in parenting. I have multiple young kids. I can tell you, it is hard. Not a burden, but it’s hard a lot of the time. If you see me in the store with them I will probably look exhausted and overwhelmed. And in the moment, it might even feel burdensome. But my kids are awesome and I wouldn’t trade being a parent for anything. Trying to raise them right is my #1 life goal and it’s incredibly rewarding to me (but not rewarding to everyone, I should clarify that point. If you know you don’t want kids you probably shouldn’t IMO). But the burden/reward is dialectically related. Those little humans just love you so much and are dependent on you for everything. That takes a lot out of you but also makes it all truly a joy even if there are moments when I can’t see it.
Hell yeah man. Sounds like you're seeing the burden of parenthood more as "responsibility with burdens" rather than just a burden. Sounds like you're going to do right by your kids! That's what being a leftie is all about, being cool to others.
Yeah, this kills me. But seeing what some other dads have done (or not done) wrt their kids, I see why the attitude exists.
For sure. Their expectations are set based on their experiences which is very sad. I'm sure they didn't even mean anything by it is the thing -- if anything, they probably saw it as a positive because it was counter to their own experiences. Shit's fucked
I've had good results on dating app profiles by simply saying that I will (a) never talk about my car, and (b) never interrupt my date when they're talking. Low bar indeed.
I thought all the Jordon Paederson garbage at least taught dipshits to clean their mess
it tells them they're supposed to. but they seem to treat those rules the same way christians treat jesus's teachings. "oh thats a nice ideal to aspire to, if only i were the perfect human maybe i could suck less than i do now"
For the few that actually did it worked wonders. Thats how Peterson got so much traction with them. Out of all the internet manosphere talking heads, he was the only one that actually gave any real advice.
the bar is so fucking low and men cant be bothered to do the bare minimum, and then they go online and cry about how: "womenz bad"
shit then me being essentially a boy-maid gives me pretty good chances huh
The trans mega is right. Shit's a fucking mess over here on team cis.
If you're clean, chill and can take care of yourself you've already cleared the bar that was buried under the floor.
Thanks for translating into zoomerish, I didn't know what the others meant by "hell" 🙏
Not a woman but was assigned as one at birth, so I can say that the bar is usually even lower than that.
That's... not even as low as the bar goes. Just existing and taking out the trash is often enough.
Everything is fucked.
women often
make worse decisionsare conditioned by a patriarchal society to have lower standards than this cartoonist wants to thinkWomen have low standards because most guys really do suck, at least where I'm from. I've heard stories from single woman friends of my partner and it's pretty depressing. Damn near every guy they dated has some weird patriarchal brainworms.
yes but straight women pretty much have to, otherwise they're going to die alone
In my last year of dating, every woman I've spoken to has effectively said the same thing: "The bar is in hell".
As long as you are kind and clean, you can almost certainly get a few dates. Not to say that every woman will jump at you, but those two things mean you've got a good shot at a date or two.
minimum.
