Mods/Admins have stated that "clean slate on lemmy" is out the window apparently? I don't really feel safe in a place where it feels like people get banned for just disagreeing :(
The clean slate on Lemmy is for those people who don't act in bad faith, brigade, and spam with others.
Marie has been involved in that since the initial dev instance prior to us going live, and then subsequently in several other brigades since then. Other users here who have been banned from discord have been allowed to create accounts here and post under the clean slate; the difference being that they have not acted as spammers, brigaders, and other wreckers have.
I feel like that's been code for just ignoring the legitimate grievances raised. Telling the trans community to just get over it isn't going to make them feel comfortable returning to the greater chapo community.
Can you stop speaking like you represent all trans people please? You don't. There are a lot of us here that don't agree with you. This splinter group looks like it's what? 10 people at most?
Wherever you went. But as I said above, it's a group of 10 or so and doesn't represent "all trans people" here whatsoever. I also saw the attempts to get MLs riled up in the Tankie Bunker discord with claims that MLs were being unduly targeted and that was nonsense too. Bad faith oozes off of this when you make rediculously hyped up claims of hundreds of people being involved instead of the very grounded reality of it being a single core group of 10 or so.
i didn't say hundreds. I said 100+ which is an accurate appraisal, and doesn't even count the passively disaffected. If I was lying yall should have a thriving trans community here.
I already posted my concerns and the thread got locked. Why should I have any confidence the community will be heard out in good faith when no actions have been taken to indicate that they will be. The issues are well known at this point. It's not an issue of stating them. it's an issue of them yet being addressed.
if the trans mod of a trans community was wrong about their grievances - it's happened in the past - he should criticize it? it's ridiculous to say every grievance held by every trans person is correct, people are wrong a lot- i can remember many reddit dramas where multiple trans mods were expressing their grievances and they contradicted each other, leading to endless drama
Ok. Yelling at me that I'm not going by the right procedure or whatever isn't going to make the trans community automatically feel comfortable here again. And it's not my responsibility. And the Administration hiding is trans-exclusionary structure behind trans mods that are willing to ignore it doesn't really do anything positive either
If you really want to make a difference I'm sure the people from the shork server would be willing to talk it out with you. Like they were willing to talk with briggs about it until they decided to ignore any offers the shork server made to have that conversation. Otherwise you're just playing cover for the cis mods that don't care.
Ok, really. What are you trying to accomplish here? what more can we do? I'm one of the dev's. I'm trans. I personally made sure to advocate for the removal of every moderator and admin who abused their power or said hurtful and or inappropriate things. and they were. The mod team for the trans spaces is exclusively trans no, there is no hold over. I'm helping build features explicitly to protect my people.
So serious question: what grievances are left that haven't been addressed?
we arn't being pedantic when we ask this. we legitimently don't know how else to help. we want to help.
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Earlier you said "it's not my responsibility" to talk to this mod who is trans and working hard to make things better about how to do that
Now you're saying it's this mods responsibility to go on Discord, which she mentioned repeatedly she doesn't use because it often induces dysphoria, and if she doesn't it means she doesn't really care about building a good space for trans and nonbinary people*
Hopefully you see that on a person to person level that's pretty mean.
It seems like you're saying you and your group are happy to stay on the discord and don't really care either way about being on Lemmy. I'm not sure if that's accurate but it's my impression.
You paraphrasing my post (which specifically only described your words/actions as mean) into a general insult with a really harsh and harmful gendered word is just another example of so much bad faith engagement.
I can't even remember the last time I've seen the word cunt outside of like 4chan
I'd like to take the time to point out bwp was the one that misgendered caden and took two weeks to apologize after 2 seperate negotiations, and they're still a part of the power structure here. This is one qualm I will bring up. You should still contact shorks
I think this is conflating a "truth and reconciliation committee" approach with a "blank slate" approach. With a blank slate approach, feedback and suggestions don't need to be couched in previous discord discord.
If there are concerns, they can absolutely be addressed and fixes implemented without re-litigating disputes form another platform.
Blank Slate Approach: I'm worried that the current structure is vulnerable to insert general concern and suggest corrective action to mitigate the risk of this occurring. ✅
Importing Discord Drama: I have been harmed by user X on different platform y and want to know what actions will be taken against them here. ❎
I don't see how classifying what's occurred recently as "drama" pertinent only to the Discord platform is productive to the conversation here. The factors that lead to this "drama" are inherent to both communities.
A "blank slate" policy in this context meant leniency towards people that had been targeted in recent banwaves on Discord, not a full dismissal of any conflict that had occurred on the platform.
The factors that brought this “drama” are inherent to both communities.
Strong disagree. I think the structure and format of Discords is a large driver of this sort of thing, because we never encountered anything like it moderating the very large subreddit.
If this place is going to go anywhere, there needs to be an influx of people from the subreddit who (like me) never went to any of the discords so that they can water down the two feuding communities until they are no long meaningfully distinct.
Agreed, discord is bad. On that note, whatever grievances people have against discord mods will fester here since the mod team is exactly the same. Just saying.
The subreddit was moderated in a far different manner than the discord (irrespective of platform limitations), I don't think the comparison is apt.
This isn't two feuding communities with "discord drama" spilling over into Lemmy. It's one community and legitimate grievances are reflected on both platforms. Simple as that.
The subreddit was moderated in a far different manner than the discord
This is the new subreddit, it needs to be moderated like a subreddit.
It’s one community
No it's not. I don't know like 90% of the people here. I'm from the subreddit. Not the discord. So trying to pretend this is an extension of the discord and re-litigating grievances from there is a category error.
This is the new subreddit, it needs to be moderated like a subreddit.
I'm discussing the style and manner of moderation, not anything specific to the platform.
No it’s not. I don’t know like 90% of the people here. I’m from the subreddit. Not the discord. So trying to pretend this is an extension of the discord and re-litigating grievances from there is a category error.
Where do you think the discord users came from? We're literally all from the same community. There is no "extension of the discord". Some of us stayed in the discord during the transition, but it is the same community. The grievances that occurred there are relevant to the entire community and it's rather disrespectful to the people that were harmed there to say it has no place here and is just cheap discord drama.
I’m discussing the style and manner of moderation, not anything specific to the platform.
The style and manner of moderation for the subreddit was to warn and then ban attempts to litigate drama from off the subreddit on the subreddit. If we're making this the new subreddit, I don't see why that should be any different here.
Where do you think the discord users came from?
I have no idea.
We’re literally all from the same community.
We apparently have different definitions of the word community. The Discords fosters a very distinct culture and userbase compared with the subreddit, so I don't consider them unified at all. A person might belong to both communities, but that doesn't mean they are the same community.
This is part of the conflict and clearly relevant to both platforms.
We apparently have different definitions of the word community. The Discords fosters a very distinct culture and userbase compared with the subreddit, so I don’t consider them unified at all. A person might belong to both communities, but that doesn’t mean they are the same community.
You're being pedantic at this point. The small subset of the community that had a long-term interest in the discord platform isn't of relevance here. I'm referring to the general r/CTH community, from which 10k managed to join the server in the days following the subreddit ban. Seeing as this is a significant portion of the subreddit's active userbase, the conflicts that occurred there in the weeks after the ban are completely relevant here.
This is part of the conflict and clearly relevant to both platforms.
Nope, wasn't a conflict on the subreddit.
Seeing as this is a significant portion of the subreddit’s active userbase, the conflicts that occurred there in the weeks after the ban are completely relevant here.
Only if you want to have a DiscordOnLemmy Community as opposed to the /r/CTH community.
At this point you're being intentionally obtuse. No one is suggesting that this becomes "DiscordOnLemmy", but the events that took place in the few weeks of transition are clearly relevant to the community now.
If you continually suggest that the discord server that was advertised by the mods just before the ban and managed to capture 10k active users from the subreddit has no relevance to the subreddit now, just weeks later, then yes, I will say you are being intentionally obtuse.
advertised by the mods just before the ban and managed to capture 10k active users from the subreddit has no relevance to the subreddit now, just weeks later, then yes, I will say you are being intentionally obtuse.
There was another discord that was advertised for over a year on the sidebar that fostered an entirely different culture, atmosphere, and yes community. Don't care about the drama from there either.
I will say you are being intentionally obtuse.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯. You're welcome to think this but my genuine view is that unless we want this to turn into DiscordOnLemmy we need to acknowledge the distinct communities.
If users have not behaved peacefully in this very same community, albeit on a different platform, then past conflicts are ABSOLUTELY your problem as a moderator. On one hand you're saying you want people to feel safe and on the other you're stating that even if a user has previously made members of your community feel unsafe, as long as they behave peacefully from this moment on you have no problem allowing them to participate in your community.
I’m new to modding, past conflicts are not my problem.
That really sounds like dismissing the issues of the greater trans community, because it's inconvenient for you - which isn't a good way to get all the disaffected trans folks to feel comfortable coming back here.
Shorks are also telling me registration is closed. Which I find it hard that you wouldn't know as a mod. How exactly would they even come in this thread anyway? This whole thing is bad faith.
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Oh why thank you
Mods/Admins have stated that "clean slate on lemmy" is out the window apparently? I don't really feel safe in a place where it feels like people get banned for just disagreeing :(
The clean slate on Lemmy is for those people who don't act in bad faith, brigade, and spam with others.
Marie has been involved in that since the initial dev instance prior to us going live, and then subsequently in several other brigades since then. Other users here who have been banned from discord have been allowed to create accounts here and post under the clean slate; the difference being that they have not acted as spammers, brigaders, and other wreckers have.
I feel like that's been code for just ignoring the legitimate grievances raised. Telling the trans community to just get over it isn't going to make them feel comfortable returning to the greater chapo community.
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Admins know what the grievances are. They can reach out to the greater trans community.
Can you stop speaking like you represent all trans people please? You don't. There are a lot of us here that don't agree with you. This splinter group looks like it's what? 10 people at most?
100+ trans comrades. and there seemed to be a positive response to my thread so at least a proportion of people agree with me.
X to doubt. The spam I've seen in new isn't anywhere remotely close to that lol, nor is the participation in any discussion on the topic.
Ok. explain why the trans channel was active on the server. but it's a ghost town now.
Because discord as a platform centres each channel around a core usergroup of 10-15 active users.
and where did they go?
Wherever you went. But as I said above, it's a group of 10 or so and doesn't represent "all trans people" here whatsoever. I also saw the attempts to get MLs riled up in the Tankie Bunker discord with claims that MLs were being unduly targeted and that was nonsense too. Bad faith oozes off of this when you make rediculously hyped up claims of hundreds of people being involved instead of the very grounded reality of it being a single core group of 10 or so.
i didn't say hundreds. I said 100+ which is an accurate appraisal, and doesn't even count the passively disaffected. If I was lying yall should have a thriving trans community here.
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I already posted my concerns and the thread got locked. Why should I have any confidence the community will be heard out in good faith when no actions have been taken to indicate that they will be. The issues are well known at this point. It's not an issue of stating them. it's an issue of them yet being addressed.
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if the trans mod of a trans community was wrong about their grievances - it's happened in the past - he should criticize it? it's ridiculous to say every grievance held by every trans person is correct, people are wrong a lot- i can remember many reddit dramas where multiple trans mods were expressing their grievances and they contradicted each other, leading to endless drama
Ok. Yelling at me that I'm not going by the right procedure or whatever isn't going to make the trans community automatically feel comfortable here again. And it's not my responsibility. And the Administration hiding is trans-exclusionary structure behind trans mods that are willing to ignore it doesn't really do anything positive either
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what did they say?
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If you really want to make a difference I'm sure the people from the shork server would be willing to talk it out with you. Like they were willing to talk with briggs about it until they decided to ignore any offers the shork server made to have that conversation. Otherwise you're just playing cover for the cis mods that don't care.
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I don't represent the whole trans chapo community. Talk to the shorks
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They tried comming here and the thread was locked.
Ok, really. What are you trying to accomplish here? what more can we do? I'm one of the dev's. I'm trans. I personally made sure to advocate for the removal of every moderator and admin who abused their power or said hurtful and or inappropriate things. and they were. The mod team for the trans spaces is exclusively trans no, there is no hold over. I'm helping build features explicitly to protect my people.
So serious question: what grievances are left that haven't been addressed? we arn't being pedantic when we ask this. we legitimently don't know how else to help. we want to help. :purple heart:
Well if want to name a big thing. People that do name their grievences keep getting deleted and banned so we can't even start until that's fixed.
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you can come to them
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discord didn't fail. the admin team did.
you can reach out to them if you actually try
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You don't need to be a discord admin to reach out. If you really cared you could do that bare minimum, atleast.
Earlier you said "it's not my responsibility" to talk to this mod who is trans and working hard to make things better about how to do that
Now you're saying it's this mods responsibility to go on Discord, which she mentioned repeatedly she doesn't use because it often induces dysphoria, and if she doesn't it means she doesn't really care about building a good space for trans and nonbinary people*
Hopefully you see that on a person to person level that's pretty mean.
It seems like you're saying you and your group are happy to stay on the discord and don't really care either way about being on Lemmy. I'm not sure if that's accurate but it's my impression.
you're right. we're all mean cunts and we'll stay on discord. sorry for thinking yall wanted our participation, I'll fuck back off.
You paraphrasing my post (which specifically only described your words/actions as mean) into a general insult with a really harsh and harmful gendered word is just another example of so much bad faith engagement.
I can't even remember the last time I've seen the word cunt outside of like 4chan
you're right. I'm fucking off from whence I came. I'm tired of this shit.
jesus christ...
oh wait nvm
I'm just trying to figure out whats going on and everyone is really angry. do you like house music or shoegaze?
What’s shoegaze
It's kinda like house. I made a post thing: https://hexbear.net/post/3494
oh house is cool. I love like cheesy old house music.
Me too! https://hexbear.net/post/3191
edit: linked song is pure cheese
is that house? sounds more like harddance or something
okay that's a good point. I'm going to need to post actual house now.
John Kerry
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That doesn't stop you from reaching out to them instead of urging them to come into this damage control thread where they'll continue to be ignored.
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Looks like and walks like damage control. Reach out to the shorks
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are you gonna ignore me asking you to reach out to the shorks? why can't you reach out to the shorks?
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I was trying to do yall a favor and explain why trans comrades weren't coming here. If ya'll really give this little of a fuck about it then whatever.
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You can reach out to the shork server. Everyone else managed to do so really easily.
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are you bound to chapo.chat by magic spell or something? You can still reach out if you want to.
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...what did they say?
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I mean your reaction and the fact that they deleted what was otherwise not a crazy out there comment makes me think something is up here.
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I'd like to take the time to point out bwp was the one that misgendered caden and took two weeks to apologize after 2 seperate negotiations, and they're still a part of the power structure here. This is one qualm I will bring up. You should still contact shorks
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If you're open to discussion then reach out to the shorks
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proof?
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I think this is conflating a "truth and reconciliation committee" approach with a "blank slate" approach. With a blank slate approach, feedback and suggestions don't need to be couched in previous discord discord.
If there are concerns, they can absolutely be addressed and fixes implemented without re-litigating disputes form another platform.
what?
Blank Slate Approach: I'm worried that the current structure is vulnerable to insert general concern and suggest corrective action to mitigate the risk of this occurring. ✅
Importing Discord Drama: I have been harmed by user X on different platform y and want to know what actions will be taken against them here. ❎
I don't see how classifying what's occurred recently as "drama" pertinent only to the Discord platform is productive to the conversation here. The factors that lead to this "drama" are inherent to both communities.
A "blank slate" policy in this context meant leniency towards people that had been targeted in recent banwaves on Discord, not a full dismissal of any conflict that had occurred on the platform.
Strong disagree. I think the structure and format of Discords is a large driver of this sort of thing, because we never encountered anything like it moderating the very large subreddit.
If this place is going to go anywhere, there needs to be an influx of people from the subreddit who (like me) never went to any of the discords so that they can water down the two feuding communities until they are no long meaningfully distinct.
I cannot emphasize enough: Discord bad.
Agreed, discord is bad. On that note, whatever grievances people have against discord mods will fester here since the mod team is exactly the same. Just saying.
No that's a valid point, and I think needs to change, but apparently that's already in the works.
But this isn't the case there are at least three mods who are no longer mods due to actions on the discord.
The subreddit was moderated in a far different manner than the discord (irrespective of platform limitations), I don't think the comparison is apt.
This isn't two feuding communities with "discord drama" spilling over into Lemmy. It's one community and legitimate grievances are reflected on both platforms. Simple as that.
This is the new subreddit, it needs to be moderated like a subreddit.
No it's not. I don't know like 90% of the people here. I'm from the subreddit. Not the discord. So trying to pretend this is an extension of the discord and re-litigating grievances from there is a category error.
I'm discussing the style and manner of moderation, not anything specific to the platform.
Where do you think the discord users came from? We're literally all from the same community. There is no "extension of the discord". Some of us stayed in the discord during the transition, but it is the same community. The grievances that occurred there are relevant to the entire community and it's rather disrespectful to the people that were harmed there to say it has no place here and is just cheap discord drama.
The style and manner of moderation for the subreddit was to warn and then ban attempts to litigate drama from off the subreddit on the subreddit. If we're making this the new subreddit, I don't see why that should be any different here.
I have no idea.
We apparently have different definitions of the word community. The Discords fosters a very distinct culture and userbase compared with the subreddit, so I don't consider them unified at all. A person might belong to both communities, but that doesn't mean they are the same community.
This is part of the conflict and clearly relevant to both platforms.
You're being pedantic at this point. The small subset of the community that had a long-term interest in the discord platform isn't of relevance here. I'm referring to the general r/CTH community, from which 10k managed to join the server in the days following the subreddit ban. Seeing as this is a significant portion of the subreddit's active userbase, the conflicts that occurred there in the weeks after the ban are completely relevant here.
Nope, wasn't a conflict on the subreddit.
Only if you want to have a DiscordOnLemmy Community as opposed to the /r/CTH community.
At this point you're being intentionally obtuse. No one is suggesting that this becomes "DiscordOnLemmy", but the events that took place in the few weeks of transition are clearly relevant to the community now.
This makes me think you don't understand how disagreements work.
Only if you disregard one of the few rules that the subreddit religiously enforced.
If you continually suggest that the discord server that was advertised by the mods just before the ban and managed to capture 10k active users from the subreddit has no relevance to the subreddit now, just weeks later, then yes, I will say you are being intentionally obtuse.
There was another discord that was advertised for over a year on the sidebar that fostered an entirely different culture, atmosphere, and yes community. Don't care about the drama from there either.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯. You're welcome to think this but my genuine view is that unless we want this to turn into DiscordOnLemmy we need to acknowledge the distinct communities.
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If users have not behaved peacefully in this very same community, albeit on a different platform, then past conflicts are ABSOLUTELY your problem as a moderator. On one hand you're saying you want people to feel safe and on the other you're stating that even if a user has previously made members of your community feel unsafe, as long as they behave peacefully from this moment on you have no problem allowing them to participate in your community.
That really sounds like dismissing the issues of the greater trans community, because it's inconvenient for you - which isn't a good way to get all the disaffected trans folks to feel comfortable coming back here.
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Claiming issues effecting the trans community aren't your problem is kinda yikes.
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If it's that easily misinterpreted then write something else.
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So I can get banned and ignored? No thanks. Reach out to the shorks.
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Other people can still do that though, lol
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Shorks are also telling me registration is closed. Which I find it hard that you wouldn't know as a mod. How exactly would they even come in this thread anyway? This whole thing is bad faith.
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