Permanently Deleted
I just want to emphasize that Discord Bad and bringing bad discord blood to the subreddit/lemmy makes the subreddit/lemmy bad.
Mods/Admins have stated that "clean slate on lemmy" is out the window apparently? I don't really feel safe in a place where it feels like people get banned for just disagreeing :(
The clean slate on Lemmy is for those people who don't act in bad faith, brigade, and spam with others.
Marie has been involved in that since the initial dev instance prior to us going live, and then subsequently in several other brigades since then. Other users here who have been banned from discord have been allowed to create accounts here and post under the clean slate; the difference being that they have not acted as spammers, brigaders, and other wreckers have.
Leaving behind Discord bullshit biggggg good
I feel like that's been code for just ignoring the legitimate grievances raised. Telling the trans community to just get over it isn't going to make them feel comfortable returning to the greater chapo community.
Admins know what the grievances are. They can reach out to the greater trans community.
Can you stop speaking like you represent all trans people please? You don't. There are a lot of us here that don't agree with you. This splinter group looks like it's what? 10 people at most?
100+ trans comrades. and there seemed to be a positive response to my thread so at least a proportion of people agree with me.
X to doubt. The spam I've seen in new isn't anywhere remotely close to that lol, nor is the participation in any discussion on the topic.
Ok. explain why the trans channel was active on the server. but it's a ghost town now.
Because discord as a platform centres each channel around a core usergroup of 10-15 active users.
Wherever you went. But as I said above, it's a group of 10 or so and doesn't represent "all trans people" here whatsoever. I also saw the attempts to get MLs riled up in the Tankie Bunker discord with claims that MLs were being unduly targeted and that was nonsense too. Bad faith oozes off of this when you make rediculously hyped up claims of hundreds of people being involved instead of the very grounded reality of it being a single core group of 10 or so.
i didn't say hundreds. I said 100+ which is an accurate appraisal, and doesn't even count the passively disaffected. If I was lying yall should have a thriving trans community here.
I already posted my concerns and the thread got locked. Why should I have any confidence the community will be heard out in good faith when no actions have been taken to indicate that they will be. The issues are well known at this point. It's not an issue of stating them. it's an issue of them yet being addressed.
if the trans mod of a trans community was wrong about their grievances - it's happened in the past - he should criticize it? it's ridiculous to say every grievance held by every trans person is correct, people are wrong a lot- i can remember many reddit dramas where multiple trans mods were expressing their grievances and they contradicted each other, leading to endless drama
Ok. Yelling at me that I'm not going by the right procedure or whatever isn't going to make the trans community automatically feel comfortable here again. And it's not my responsibility. And the Administration hiding is trans-exclusionary structure behind trans mods that are willing to ignore it doesn't really do anything positive either
If you really want to make a difference I'm sure the people from the shork server would be willing to talk it out with you. Like they were willing to talk with briggs about it until they decided to ignore any offers the shork server made to have that conversation. Otherwise you're just playing cover for the cis mods that don't care.
I don't represent the whole trans chapo community. Talk to the shorks
Ok, really. What are you trying to accomplish here? what more can we do? I'm one of the dev's. I'm trans. I personally made sure to advocate for the removal of every moderator and admin who abused their power or said hurtful and or inappropriate things. and they were. The mod team for the trans spaces is exclusively trans no, there is no hold over. I'm helping build features explicitly to protect my people.
So serious question: what grievances are left that haven't been addressed? we arn't being pedantic when we ask this. we legitimently don't know how else to help. we want to help. :purple heart:
Well if want to name a big thing. People that do name their grievences keep getting deleted and banned so we can't even start until that's fixed.
discord didn't fail. the admin team did.
you can reach out to them if you actually try
You don't need to be a discord admin to reach out. If you really cared you could do that bare minimum, atleast.
Earlier you said "it's not my responsibility" to talk to this mod who is trans and working hard to make things better about how to do that
Now you're saying it's this mods responsibility to go on Discord, which she mentioned repeatedly she doesn't use because it often induces dysphoria, and if she doesn't it means she doesn't really care about building a good space for trans and nonbinary people*
Hopefully you see that on a person to person level that's pretty mean.
It seems like you're saying you and your group are happy to stay on the discord and don't really care either way about being on Lemmy. I'm not sure if that's accurate but it's my impression.
you're right. we're all mean cunts and we'll stay on discord. sorry for thinking yall wanted our participation, I'll fuck back off.
You paraphrasing my post (which specifically only described your words/actions as mean) into a general insult with a really harsh and harmful gendered word is just another example of so much bad faith engagement.
I can't even remember the last time I've seen the word cunt outside of like 4chan
you're right. I'm fucking off from whence I came. I'm tired of this shit.
I'm just trying to figure out whats going on and everyone is really angry. do you like house music or shoegaze?
It's kinda like house. I made a post thing: https://hexbear.net/post/3494
Me too! https://hexbear.net/post/3191
edit: linked song is pure cheese
okay that's a good point. I'm going to need to post actual house now.
That doesn't stop you from reaching out to them instead of urging them to come into this damage control thread where they'll continue to be ignored.
This isn’t damage control.
Looks like and walks like damage control. Reach out to the shorks
are you gonna ignore me asking you to reach out to the shorks? why can't you reach out to the shorks?
I was trying to do yall a favor and explain why trans comrades weren't coming here. If ya'll really give this little of a fuck about it then whatever.
very available and very
locks a thread talking about this stuff to open a damage control thread
You can reach out to the shork server. Everyone else managed to do so really easily.
are you bound to chapo.chat by magic spell or something? You can still reach out if you want to.
I mean your reaction and the fact that they deleted what was otherwise not a crazy out there comment makes me think something is up here.
I'd like to take the time to point out bwp was the one that misgendered caden and took two weeks to apologize after 2 seperate negotiations, and they're still a part of the power structure here. This is one qualm I will bring up. You should still contact shorks
I think this is conflating a "truth and reconciliation committee" approach with a "blank slate" approach. With a blank slate approach, feedback and suggestions don't need to be couched in previous discord discord.
If there are concerns, they can absolutely be addressed and fixes implemented without re-litigating disputes form another platform.
Blank Slate Approach: I'm worried that the current structure is vulnerable to insert general concern and suggest corrective action to mitigate the risk of this occurring. ✅
Importing Discord Drama: I have been harmed by user X on different platform y and want to know what actions will be taken against them here. ❎
I don't see how classifying what's occurred recently as "drama" pertinent only to the Discord platform is productive to the conversation here. The factors that lead to this "drama" are inherent to both communities.
A "blank slate" policy in this context meant leniency towards people that had been targeted in recent banwaves on Discord, not a full dismissal of any conflict that had occurred on the platform.
The factors that brought this “drama” are inherent to both communities.
Strong disagree. I think the structure and format of Discords is a large driver of this sort of thing, because we never encountered anything like it moderating the very large subreddit.
If this place is going to go anywhere, there needs to be an influx of people from the subreddit who (like me) never went to any of the discords so that they can water down the two feuding communities until they are no long meaningfully distinct.
Agreed, discord is bad. On that note, whatever grievances people have against discord mods will fester here since the mod team is exactly the same. Just saying.
mod team is exactly the same. Just saying.
No that's a valid point, and I think needs to change, but apparently that's already in the works.
But this isn't the case there are at least three mods who are no longer mods due to actions on the discord.
The subreddit was moderated in a far different manner than the discord (irrespective of platform limitations), I don't think the comparison is apt.
This isn't two feuding communities with "discord drama" spilling over into Lemmy. It's one community and legitimate grievances are reflected on both platforms. Simple as that.
The subreddit was moderated in a far different manner than the discord
This is the new subreddit, it needs to be moderated like a subreddit.
It’s one community
No it's not. I don't know like 90% of the people here. I'm from the subreddit. Not the discord. So trying to pretend this is an extension of the discord and re-litigating grievances from there is a category error.
This is the new subreddit, it needs to be moderated like a subreddit.
I'm discussing the style and manner of moderation, not anything specific to the platform.
No it’s not. I don’t know like 90% of the people here. I’m from the subreddit. Not the discord. So trying to pretend this is an extension of the discord and re-litigating grievances from there is a category error.
Where do you think the discord users came from? We're literally all from the same community. There is no "extension of the discord". Some of us stayed in the discord during the transition, but it is the same community. The grievances that occurred there are relevant to the entire community and it's rather disrespectful to the people that were harmed there to say it has no place here and is just cheap discord drama.
I’m discussing the style and manner of moderation, not anything specific to the platform.
The style and manner of moderation for the subreddit was to warn and then ban attempts to litigate drama from off the subreddit on the subreddit. If we're making this the new subreddit, I don't see why that should be any different here.
Where do you think the discord users came from?
I have no idea.
We’re literally all from the same community.
We apparently have different definitions of the word community. The Discords fosters a very distinct culture and userbase compared with the subreddit, so I don't consider them unified at all. A person might belong to both communities, but that doesn't mean they are the same community.
warn and then ban attempts to litigate drama
This is part of the conflict and clearly relevant to both platforms.
We apparently have different definitions of the word community. The Discords fosters a very distinct culture and userbase compared with the subreddit, so I don’t consider them unified at all. A person might belong to both communities, but that doesn’t mean they are the same community.
You're being pedantic at this point. The small subset of the community that had a long-term interest in the discord platform isn't of relevance here. I'm referring to the general r/CTH community, from which 10k managed to join the server in the days following the subreddit ban. Seeing as this is a significant portion of the subreddit's active userbase, the conflicts that occurred there in the weeks after the ban are completely relevant here.
This is part of the conflict and clearly relevant to both platforms.
Nope, wasn't a conflict on the subreddit.
Seeing as this is a significant portion of the subreddit’s active userbase, the conflicts that occurred there in the weeks after the ban are completely relevant here.
Only if you want to have a DiscordOnLemmy Community as opposed to the /r/CTH community.
At this point you're being intentionally obtuse. No one is suggesting that this becomes "DiscordOnLemmy", but the events that took place in the few weeks of transition are clearly relevant to the community now.
At this point you’re being intentionally obtuse.
This makes me think you don't understand how disagreements work.
but the events that took place in the few weeks of transition are clearly relevant to the community now.
Only if you disregard one of the few rules that the subreddit religiously enforced.
If you continually suggest that the discord server that was advertised by the mods just before the ban and managed to capture 10k active users from the subreddit has no relevance to the subreddit now, just weeks later, then yes, I will say you are being intentionally obtuse.
advertised by the mods just before the ban and managed to capture 10k active users from the subreddit has no relevance to the subreddit now, just weeks later, then yes, I will say you are being intentionally obtuse.
There was another discord that was advertised for over a year on the sidebar that fostered an entirely different culture, atmosphere, and yes community. Don't care about the drama from there either.
I will say you are being intentionally obtuse.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯. You're welcome to think this but my genuine view is that unless we want this to turn into DiscordOnLemmy we need to acknowledge the distinct communities.
If users have not behaved peacefully in this very same community, albeit on a different platform, then past conflicts are ABSOLUTELY your problem as a moderator. On one hand you're saying you want people to feel safe and on the other you're stating that even if a user has previously made members of your community feel unsafe, as long as they behave peacefully from this moment on you have no problem allowing them to participate in your community.
I’m new to modding, past conflicts are not my problem.
That really sounds like dismissing the issues of the greater trans community, because it's inconvenient for you - which isn't a good way to get all the disaffected trans folks to feel comfortable coming back here.
They’re not my problem.
Claiming issues effecting the trans community aren't your problem is kinda yikes.
If it's that easily misinterpreted then write something else.
So I can get banned and ignored? No thanks. Reach out to the shorks.
I will not be banning or removing good faith grievances posted here.
Other people can still do that though, lol
Shorks are also telling me registration is closed. Which I find it hard that you wouldn't know as a mod. How exactly would they even come in this thread anyway? This whole thing is bad faith.
The problem was bringing Discord mods to be the mods here. It's such an inane decision considering they're the reason the Discord fucking sucks.
I don't think it's the only or even the primary reason the discord is bad, but ideally the subreddit style moderation/moderator waves will return as this community grows beyond the original nucleus of discord users.
the subreddit style moderation/moderator waves will return as this community grows
It will not though, the subreddit's mods were lax and Beatnik wasn't in charge. He is here and apparently has promoted only the most prudish people who want to impose moderation on everything or they don't feel like they're doing something, which is exactly what a new community does not need. Clearly this will only be realized once it's too late and this place is straight dead.
I pretty sure Beatnik was a subreddit mod in the Latter-days. Since he's the site owner and set up the lemmy's he's going to have initial control over things, and sure, there's going to be an initial clique of mods that he appoints from his social circle.
I'm not overly worried about that as a temporary reality though, unless they walk back their plan to have a subreddit style moderation selection process take over the reins.
yeah, Beatnik was the mod who used the vapourwave images on the megathreads
He refused to make a Megathread bot so many times, he could have saved us
its just weird that this platform attracted the most drama-mongering people to whine and moan about the drama on the discord
If I could never hear about the discords every again that would be great.
im of the knowledge that you were free to shut up about them any time you had chosen
considering this whole post was created for people to whine and cry to their mommies about the discord, which is filled with people who werent flaccid reddit powermods, i think it's gonna be pretty hard for me to stem the tide
What kind of attitude is that? Put your heart into it.
is this the place where you feel like you have control over your life? or, moreso, the haspel payments that flow into it?
I don't have control over my life in any place, much less a subreddit stand-in where I don't have any control at all.
thats a charming line, did the handbook say it would elicit empathy?
Are you referring to the Handbook updates today that indicate I no longer need to a do a Bishop consult before my vasectomy?
A lot of drama between a small group of people. Some of the drama was serious (pedo-defending mod who got axed) while some of it was less serious and made to seem like a bigger conflict than it actually was. Some of the conflicts were centred around people accidentally misgendering users, which is what this update is supposed to remedy.
I basically just checked the Discord to see when the Lemmy was done cooking
that's why pronoun tags are in the works. calling each other comrade is a roundabout way to make misgendering technically not a problem rather than addressing the root cause - the presumption that people are cis men (or trans women upon learning that someone is trans), i.e. cissexism.
this is insane, not using pronouns is clearly a reasonable way to not misgender people. how is that "a roundabout way to make it technically not a problem"? aren't gendered pronouns a weird and unnecessary holdover from a sexist language history? why not call everyone comrade?
my gender is part of my struggle to become myself. choosing not to recognize that takes something away from me just as much as forcing me into the wrong category. if the genderless form is right for you, that's great, but it's not mine. there's more to gender than the oppression of old hierarchies and eliminating them won't eliminate gender entirely, just the coercion and enforced categorization. I'm not arguing against a genderless or neuter gender default but rather the active refusal to recognize that I am a woman.
do we wanna talk about who the pedo-defending mod was defending?
I could be wrong but I thought they (the axed mod) were defending pedo shit (loli drawings), not a specific pedo person.
The conversation it happened in was centered around a particular person. And it wasn't the person who was banned.
The admin who was removed for defending loli was not doing so in defense of me, as there was no loli in any way, me being that other (ex)mod being mentioned. The allegations against me are baseless and it really hurts to see myself being called "the loli person"
Scared to even defend myself, but its just so draining. I've been getting harassed about this for weeks, I'm scared to even check here or discord for fear of seeing yet another shitstorm where people are calling me a pedophile. It's a waking nightmare and I'm afraid to even talk about it.
Also important to note that I was not removed: the team investigated it thoroughly, my whole online existence rooted through, even stuff from when I was in highschool was dug up, and nothing was found. Otherwise I would have been immediately banned. But then the rumors started spreading and got to the point that the rumors alone were damaging trust and making people feel unsafe, at that point being a mod was harming me and harming the community, so I stepped down voluntarily.
Sorry, this kind of turned into venting, my brain is foggy. hope it cleared some stuff up
Hey Quill, I've interacted with you a few times on the Discord. You come across like a very cool and inviting person! I'm sorry you've had to deal with all of this. I'm sure most of us libs trust you and the rest of the mod team here, solidarity forever :red-fist:
why? so yall can ban me?
A crime far worse than transphobia I'm sure https://i.imgur.com/U1AgVGy.png
I mean if that's who's drawings karlmouth was defending then that's who's drawings karlmouth was defending. If it's not then it's not.
every time someone tries they get banned and deleted. Here's the full log between people that are concerned and beatnik and the owner of this site https://imgur.com/a/l7rCmKX
Ok well I clearly don't know the full story, then. Thanks for the info.
Also, I wasn't the one who downvoted you, btw.
Someone asked me to make this a top-level comment since it might get buried otherwise since it's nested deep in the thread here, so here's a very long response to the Imgur album of chat logs with the admins and all of the associated claims regarding the Discord server and its staff that's been circling around, which I hope can answer some questions: https://hexbear.net/post/3351/comment/23404
Someone else stated that “it’s kind of depressing that lgbt spaces here are empty”
This is just a matter of posting. Make it a routine to post something every day and build a community. There might only be 5 people in it to begin with actively posting, but be consistent. YOU are this community -- the userbase -- make the space what you want it to be.
This is why I post so much in the megathreads. Its totally not because I am a loser with no life.
Not c/anime :3
I mean, in total comments sure but activity is good. It's a real community. Small but not too small to be essentially on life support.
Fuck. This thing is just going to be a bunch of boring infighting and mod drama isn't it? Damn, I had hopes for it.
This is why FOSS platforms matter - you can add the features you need.
Discord and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.
Who would've thought that furry porn would be the death of Chapo
It's unfortunate, there's some legitimate complaints about the modship and things that can be (and are) improved on but any discussion on this is getting drowned by people who have an axe to grind
This update makes me sad. I don't understand how or why your messages to the shorks resulted in this escalation, everything you said seemed pretty calm and cool-headed
I think this community is moving in the right direction and you're doing a lot of stuff that is good and generally seem to be acting in good faith. Because of that good faith, and since you're a new mod i would like to provide gentle feedback that your conversation with Marie was a lot more productive compared to the other people, and i don't think it's a coincidence if you compare how you opened that convo compared to the others. Messaging someone out of the blue for the first time to ask if they are doing shitty stuff or that they have exactly 1, chosen by you, hour to talk is not going to set up the conversation to be productive. Like if the mayor picks one or two black lives matters protesters out of a crowd and is like "hey is it you fuckers that are starting the fires?" and "you have exactly 1 hour to make your demands and then your window closes forever" it's just straight up not going to be a healthy conversation. I would also be defensive in their position:
- I have what i think is a genuine grievance with this place (and some of their grievances are genuine - you admitted Marie should not have been banned)
- I get messaged out of the blue asking if i'm responsible for some shitty stuff (and you admit later it appears to just be one spammy guy and not even related to this)
- Then i get an ultimatum that i must drop everything and become the spokesperson for an entire group of people's grievances, and must discuss it all immediately with you during, once again, our very fucking first conversation and i only have an hour to do so with no advance notice.
I'm sorry but those actions are not good faith steps to reconciliation or hearing their "side" out. Now, i am not trying to turn this into A Thing since i think you handled the convo with Marie well, like i mentioned earlier. I just think in the future you should learn from what did and didn't work with starting a productive conversation. And obviously i am making no excuses for the mean stuff people said to you either.
I think I'm gonna leave for a bit and come back when you guys have figured out what this community is.
