It's a situation that I have been expecting for a while, but I wasn't fully ready to accept it. Specifically it's one of my LGBTQ friends who honestly believes in the democrats will protect them and their partner. I have tried to make the point that both parties are eroding any sort of civility towards all marginalized groups, but fear seems to drive them more than logical observations. They make the excuse that change doesn't happen over night and that the left continues to grow and will have meaningful affects down the road. I fundamentally just don't agree with that idea and vocalize it regularly. More and more it is ending up in a circular argument where I am painted as unrealistic and my rhetoric (leftist rhetoric) is doing more harm than good because it promotes distrust in the only system we have to work with. I try to tell them it's kind of the whole point. We gotta start somewhere if we want to see a better, more representative system, but they are so hung up on the immediate future while simultaneously saying that my idealistic feelings are shortsighted and I cant expect change in the immediate future... The double-talk is wild, I know.
I am trying my hardest to stop from engaging at this point because on the most basic level we agree on a lot of stuff, but they are just way to wrapped up in the fear mongering of the democratic party. They know that the two party system is broken, they know that something drastic needs to change, but they also think that they are powerless to do anything except choose the lesser evil. It pains me because I am watching them do the same shit past generations have done, where they give up on their ideals for the sake of preserving the current status quo that they benefit from. I am legitimately watching them imply "fuck you, got mine" under the guise of civic duty and I hate it. I want nothing more than to be able to finally say "I told you so" without being a smug asshole about it and ruining our friendship.
Thanks for reading my rant. It's probably a bit disjointed, but the frustration is boiling over and I needed to vent to the only group of people that seems to understand the hopelessness of being a disenfranchised leftist.
I recently heard 'genocide is a good option because it will promote long term peace'
I know people say not to cut off the lib friends and I'm trying not to lose connections that have mattered to me, but it is hard to make myself bother with most of them anymore. I feel like they are just demonstrating they can't be relied upon.
What am I saying, their complete return to "normal" and pretending covid isn't dangerous is 100% demonstrating they can't be trusted
people say not to cut off the lib friends
I think this is honestly just a big cope from people. I know how seriously they take their convictions when they say stuff like this because my militant masking and insistence on accomodations as an immunocompromised person since January 2020 has utterly destroyed my social life and I don't just get to turn the other cheek about that, lol. So yeah, I'm with you. Fuck em. Your world will become far smaller, but what world? A world of people who will abandon you for this? For genocide? For an evening at Applebees? Kill the liberalism in your soul that makes you want to poison yourself in the company of these people and you can begin to figure out how to live.
My social circle is much smaller now and it sucks. But not as much as long covid would. Not as much as playing nice with white supremacist assholes who excuse genocide when it's done against people with my skin color.
their complete return to "normal" and pretending covid isn't dangerous
"Trust the science" liberals like when the "science" is skewed so it sounds like wine is a health and longevity supplement (it's not; those old studies were bullshit ignored the other material conditions of the healthy and long lived people) and that covid is "over." Basically, trust in the "science" that says more treats.
It's maddening how many "trust the science" liberals -- many of them tech and science nerds and professionals! -- just ignore when I point out he science of airborne transmission, the science of long covid, the science that says the only way to be pretty safe is if we all mask the fuck up in respirators.
Because respirators somehow ruin the vibe and that's what mattera most, even though they didn't ruin the vibe earlier in the pandemic.
Most confusing of all are the ones who post about updated vaccines and free rapid tests being sent out -- they act like they don't know covid is worth caring about but then occasionally they say shit that demonstrates they know it's still around, and go right back to gathering without masking
Covid has a peculiar connection to climate change for me: in both cases, the crisis didn't go anywhere, it's getting worse all the time, but "I fucking love science" bazingas in both cases want to look at hyped up "good news" then return to whatever they were already doing, trying to silence people for caring too much about either.
Yep. I should have realized covid wouldn't be solved because of how climate change denialism is hegemonic but silly me, I thought people might be able to learn
right there with you – I foolishly thought it might be a turning point that actually made us wake up about climate change 🤦
There were two good weeks or so where it looked like it was going to be possible. Major outlets were running articles with headlines like "It's weird how much of our lives was actually bullshit" and realizing that commuting to work is optional, etc. Then the reaction set in.
Are there any good books yet about the reactionary turn under Covid / after the George Floyd uprising?
There were two good weeks or so where it looked like it was going to be possible. ... Then the reaction set in.
the whiplash from this wounded my heart and then my social circle. genuinely, truly, I had real hope again for a minute, and the way my own friends and family were so eager to just ignore the pandemic and get back to "Normal" shocked me and ruined my regard for those people.
I genuinely thought better of all of them, or I wouldn't have been their friend.
This, this, one thousand times this. We learned that most jobs are inessential! And then we gave the "essential workers" a new honorific, but not sick days!
In my neighborhood someone had a sign that said "Instead of 'back to normal,' shouldn't we try for something better?" But then all the hogs brayed and insisted that things get worse. And so they did.
That is a completely different, but totally valid topic that I wasn't even thinking about in this moment. Because I also find that I cant be honest about that either. All my liberal friends know my stance and many of them have accepted it by just not including me in their plans anymore. Which I'm fine with, I hate public gatherings anyway, but yeah, most of them just shrug and say, "it's endemic at this point". As if that is a form of fucking protection. UUUUUUUGH!
The Venn Diagram is nigh a circle because the same brainrot underlies both forms of denying material reality
Honesty I’ve learned to just shut the fuck up about politics when talking to PoC or LGBTQ friends. For some reason a straight white guy saying “ACTUALLY YOU WILL LIKELY NEVER BE TRULY SAFE IN OUR LIFETIME” is not received well.
Yeah I genuinely feel bad talking about politics with people I know in the community, there's nothing positive to say really.
Like, you could point out that the Dems were appealing to pro-immigrant sentiments 4 years ago as their humane line, and in the space of a toddler's lifetime have decided to throw them under the bus. But what does it actually accomplish to make it plain that they're just kinda screwed, I dunno.
Yeah, I specifically avoid that sentiment because I cannot control the way things I say will be interpreted. I would much rather keep my mouth shut because I'm not in the business of unintentionally offending people I care about.
Instead I try to convey it through the lens of my own experience to talk about the fears I have that lead me to feel how I do. Like how concerned I am about what is the next evil thing we are okay with now that we as a society have effectively given a pass to genocide enablers again.
The current sticking point with my wife is that it's about getting control of the Supreme Court back, given the assumption that Alito and Thomas will retire/die and (a) the Democrats won't appoint Alito's/Thomas's preferred successors in the name of unity, and (b) the Republicans won't hold open the vacancy to get concessions and/or wait until a Republican president comes into office as they successfully did with Garland. Refusing to budge because of Palestine is "making this about me" and failing to understand that Harris needs the Jewish vote in PA (I pointed out that she also needs the Muslim vote in Michigan, no response).
Nobody else, even fairly close friends, has opined on politics around me and I don't bring it up, so I'm not sure what everyone around me is thinking.
I just can't understand how people have seen in this last year alone how blatantly broken the Supreme Court is as a system and their response is "we just have to play this broken game even harder"
especially when the odds of conservative judges dying and being replaced in the next 4 years are so slim in and of itself.
so much has happened this year alone that I thought would wake up libs even slightly....and it just hasn't at all.I'm trying to leave the US primarily because of Alito and Thomas.
Obgerfell will likely be overturned next session. It will be horrific.
Kinda feeling like I should've skipped town when I had the chance but instead I chose to build a life here under the assumption that things could be fixed.
I have to leave. I came out of the closet after being in for 20 years (Thanks Oklahoma and Texas) and I got baby reindeered so bad I had to get a protective order. I'd my family finds out I will spend a five figures amount on legal fees to get more protective orders in place.
I hate having to take a paycut, but this is survival
Yeah, that is the major sticking point I have seen as well. Which I understand except for the other things you just laid out. I can't comfortably trust that anyone of these ghouls is going to do right by citizens.
I don't get it, look at what they've been saying about the palestinian genocide, then look at what they're doing. How could anyone trust them??
Their neurotic defense or Biden, even now is completely unacceptable. No one should lead s country if they cannot complete a coherent sentence on live TV without a teleprompter.
Pokemon Blue MAGA bitch asses
The apparent uselessness of the "commander-in-chief" goes to show just how useless the electoral theatre is. It doesn't matter if the hood ornament is a donkey or an elephant the harvester keeps going.
They are extremely powerful when Trump is in charge and are powerless when he is not. He may as well still be president.
I made the point today actually that I am honestly concerned where we go from here now that as a society we have pretty much accepted genocide.
I don't know how much solace this is but genocide already has been an integral part of us-european societies for centuries. The only new thing is that the cracks in the foundation are becoming bigger and more visible. And I don't know how the beast is going to lash out on it's death bed.
USAmericans don't care about foreigners at all so lying about them doesn't even register
Obama lying about holding Wall Street accountable for the crash also didn't register. They go by vibes, and they forget any revelation about any lies that happened more than a day ago.
I am painted as unrealistic
This shit gets me. I get called "too idealistic" and my response is what does that even mean? I think it's too idealistic for the few to benefit from the work of the many. Seems unsustainable which fits right in to the definitions of idealistic. I think it's idealistic for the Dems to expect a vote when they can't give even token concessions. "Unrealistic" get the fuck out of here 70 years ago we'd be blowing ourselves up in a world war for some crusty declining nobles (and soon we might be told to do it again!) now we watch complete strangers appear to entertain us for 30 seconds and evaporate forever on tiktok wtf do we know about realistic.
This hollow "community" of Democrats will happily cannibalize anyone without a second thought. The least I expect from my lib friends is to vote third party or shut up. Capitalism is a disease. Thanks for ranting so I could rant too
I think it's idealistic for the Dems to expect a vote when they can't give even token concessions.
DUDE! I run into a situation pretty often where I have to defend my criticisms of democrats against claims that my rhetoric is detrimental to progress. To which I have to tell them that its not my fucking responsibility to make politicians likable. I am not going to stop voicing my frustrations and concerns just because some uncommitted voter might hear me and agree.... If Kamala wants more votes, that's on her to prove the critics wrong, its not on me roll over and say nice things about her and the party. It is ridiculous for the Dems to expect a vote they don't deserve just because they aren't the orange guy.
Whenever some liberal glibly tells me "the world isn't all sunshine and rainbows" I want to just scream IS-OUGHT at them until they shatter like glass.
Whenever any of them tell me to "grow up" I can't help but think of the Dead Kennedys line: "I'd rather stay a child and keep my self-respect if being an adult means being like you."
Seriously. Grow up and accept genocide and ecological collapse. Like a responsible adult. Sickening
70 years ago we'd be blowing ourselves up in a world war for some crusty declining nobles (and soon we might be told to do it again!)
hate to break it to you but 70 years ago was 1954.
Too idealistic means that your ideology (in this case socialism or communism) isn't a realistic set of goals that the USA can feasibly pursue in the next administration without a major upheaval and many MANY deaths. If you don't have a violent revolution planned to completely transform America into your image of the perfect country, you're going to have to work within the framework of the system to change it incrementally.
"I accept genocide, climate apocalypse and mass death became I am a sensible grown up. Sitting on my ass doing jack shit and calling it incremental change is going great. Why no, I haven't felt the noose slowly tightening around my own neck yet, that only happens to other people"
I understand we're not going to get communism anytime soon, but using those labels "unrealistic" or "idealistic" are worse than thought terminating. In reality it's far more unrealistic to think we can keep doing what we're doing. It's idealistic to think the status quo of destroying the planet and exploitation can go indefinitely. As always it's
If they were to say there's way too many mini Hitler's in Ford f5000s driving around to do a communism than YEA maybe we can share some thoughts.
Hate to break it to you but there are already Many many deaths. Caused by the current administration even! Yet we must pragmatically and realistically accept them because of reasons.
Yes, there are a lot of 3rd party candidates you could vote for, you could also put real pressure on the political candidates that are asking for your vote, you can do plenty of things within the framework of the system and exercise your political voice. Voting for
with no qualifiers isn't going to get you what you want sweetie. 
I wonder if it's possible to convince these people to protest for Kopmala to enact non-Hitlerite policies with the logic of "well, if you're going to be voting for her anyways..."
I don't think so... Most of them are too lazy and complacent to do that, they think exercising their civic duty of voting is enough.
The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
It's actually so good. All the matrix movies are despite what some would have you believe.
Agreed. The original is the best for many reasons, but every Matrix movie is just very good sci-fi with poignant themes way ahead of their time. The Animatrix is especially incredible, imo. Per a letterboxd review of Reloaded from 2021:
i was lied to for many years this movie fucks
Absolutely. Like I always liked reloaded when I was young because of the action sequences. Then as an adult I was like wait that's only one good part ...
Then as an adult I was like wait that's only one good part ...
Agreed. For lack of a better term, even the vibes stand out in each movie.
The vibes are excellent. I rewatched them all recently and was blown away by the vibes. So strong. Such a sense of itself many films lack.
And I will watch any movie choreographed by Yuen Woo Ping. He knows how to make human bodies fight in the most beautiful ways.
Not everyone around me in the northeast is friendly, let alone a comrade, but I'm very glad to be far away from Silicon Valley liberals at long last.
I was very nearly approaching explosive-shouting-replies to the smug, arrogant, and even occult shit they'd keep saying to me, unprompted and unsolicited, especially after dae le epic "AI" hype waves took off.
https://futurism.com/openai-employees-say-firms-chief-scientist-has-been-making-strange-spiritual-claims
I have never lived anywhere else besides the east coast, but I run into enough Silicon Valley types due to my jobs, they are on another level.
I have never lived anywhere else besides the east coast, but I run into enough Silicon Valley types due to my jobs, they are on another level.
I was just a teacher, but even then I had to hear "get in on the ground floor" pitches for numerous startups and grifts from both faculty and sometimes just strangers, and the worst of them would just announce bazinga shit like "do you know that humans are obsolete? Fortunately, I'm planning on upgrading with Neuralink."
That article is from last year and since then NVDIA is now "worth" 11% of the US GDP as a consequence, so I can kind of understand how you can see this as some sort of "miracle".
What is the opposite of capitalism realism? Capitalist absurdism? We are increasingly seeing events and trends that defy even previous well established mainstream rethoric.
Surely they're already believing or soon will turn into the old too big to fail rethoric, everyone prepares for the crash that never comes. When it does come its not a crash at all but a "pullback" only. The line only goes up, you may lose all your money but as long as Blackrock servers keep running the HFT algos Wall Street will be open every weekday at 9am.
At some point yeah, its like believing no matter what happens the church will always be there etc. There is some argument the closer we are to climate collapse the more we will regress towards fantasy escapist beliefs. The world is shit but AI will save us is just what a 14th century peasant would be saying about the church and god during the Bubonic plague. We haven't changed.
Change never arrives because the people who own the rest of us suddenly feel charitable.
Yeah I was about to make a similar post - just had a big debate with some older family friends at a party my parents had that are die-hard dems (which was nice, as they're way further left then most other people there).
They were aghast when I said I wasn't voting blue, and had no idea who Claudia or the PSL are, of course.
Got a lot of "this is the most important election ever" and "if he wins democracy is over" of course. But the one that really chapped my biscuits was saying that if he wins, then [my family member] will lose access to reproductive health care and IVF in particular.
So I said yeah right, neither side is going to change a damn thing about that, because they both see it as way too valuable of a carrot/stick to give up campaigning and fundraising on it. If the dems care so much about it, why haven't they actually done anything about it?
"Well Biden's wanted to, but he's been hamstrung by the extremist right!"
So what about those years when he had full congressional majority?
"Oh well yeah, I mean I guess he could have done more there..."
And then we got called away to the rest of the party and never got to continue.
Bonus points for my insistence that both parties intend on continuing the genocide - but ofc he is going to do it worse somehow. When I said I'm not going to vote for Genocide Light™️, they said, "Hell yeah I am! It's better than the other option!", and I sadly beat a dead horse a little more about there actually being more options available and maybe you actually don't have to put your stamp of approval on genocide-with-rainbow-flag-characteristics.
Also bonus-bonus points for one of the two (very sweet, kickass person generally) asking "So what does genocide mean again?" in a completely honest, non-hostile way, indicating that they simply had not engaged with even the thought of such a thing happening before this conversation.
And these are the two that always get in trouble for being too vocal about their left-ish political opinions at these functions.
But the one that really chapped my biscuits was saying that if he wins, then [my family member] will lose access to reproductive health care and IVF in particular.
It's always something like this that they only just realized could tangentially affect them or someone they know. Meanwhile my position is with regards to the overall systemic shortcomings that I feel are just as important even if they don't apply to me. Obviously I care about reproductive rights even tho my partner and I are both sterile (by choice), but I want those rights for everyone else even after I leveraged them for myself!
So what about those years when he had full congressional majority?
They are never ready to answer that, or they just punt the issue to the next scapegoat.
Bonus points for my insistence that both parties intend on continuing the genocide...
Yeah, this was a point I tried to make one time and instead of the "other guy is worse" I got the "Kamala isn't Joe" line. Which made my brain reboot and I don't remember after that, lol.
ofc he is going to do it worse somehow
Push libs on this and they no response: just how, exactly, will he be worse? What specific actions would he do? Because right now we’re pretty much at the limit of what any administration can reasonably do.
I've asked many libs this and all they return with is quotes of trump saying he'll do worse. But not how. Trump lies all the time and yet they believe him that he'll somehow do worse this once.
Yeah it was pretty much this.
"He said he'll flatten it!"
What, like as opposed to the dems, who will write a very strongly worded letter after the bombs they send over are used to flatten the place?
"Well yeah at least they're writing that letter! Better than no letter! "
I’m just grateful for my friend who listens to my rants and admits I know way more about it than him.
Unfortunately he’s still just voting for Kamala
Every time we hang out is basically:
Show
Yeah, I am the insufferable one like that! However, my lib friend is very well read on politics, they just have way more faith in the systems than I do. He also loves to take the "realist" stance as opposed to my idealistic one.
We don't drink much these day but I do turn into this when I'm drunk. I remember back before we were married, my wife's best friend used to call me "your communist boyfriend."
Good thing we don't drink a lot now, in the current political climate I'd probably jump on the Hamas love train and death to (various evil entities) slogans too hard and get "your terrorist supporting husband" instead.
The struggle is super relatable. I've taken to letting my lib friends share complaints with us then when voting comes up mentioning PSL and Green parties. They don't live in a swing state but still are visibly shocked by the suggestion.
Yep. This is how LGBT people in the US are cowed to the dems. With fear. With browbeating arguments to "safety" that never seems to materialize (and comes at the expense of the safety of others).
And it works because there genuinely are threats. Hate crimes, etc.
But its always the most comfortable members of the community that place their safety over solidarity. That's what kept me aligned, even before I read much theory, was seeing the absolute most beaten down people in society be the most eager to put themselves on the line when they were able to provide aid to others, or make a change or a statement. If they can do it what's my excuse?
its touched on in an old paper written during the 2014 israeli war on gaza that I really like (CW transphobia mentions):
The "safety" line is such bullshit. I don't see armed Dems on the line at drag story hour events protecting against the 3%ers across the street. It's leftists that actually show up. All these people do is throw $20 at Human Rights Campaign and go to brunch.
ah, but the democrats (usually...) don't fund the 3%%ers (often), as compared to the republicans which fund stuff like that often because they actually understand that giving stuff to their constituents makes them like them
Democrats at the national level don't actually oppose Republicans. Kamala keeps saying she wants bipartisanship and promises to appoint a Republican to her cabinet.
No matter who wins, we get Fascism! Yaay
Just point out the last time any progressive legislation was ever written at the federal level was gay marriage and bring them crashing down to earth. The party has zero interest in actually using the power it has to do good for everyone, they are content to fuck over everyone that isn't in a blue state, and everyone in blue states will be fucked over eventually. This isn't a case of IF, it's a case of WHEN, and that only by reckoning with this reality and committing to working for the change that is sorely needed can marginalised peoples truly get on the correct strategic path. The current strategic path being pushed is a dead end and the liberals are content to continue mis-selling it to you because you choose to be naive as a result of the very understandable fear that reckoning with this instills.
Their claims that we are shortsighted and idealist are projections of the naivity they know they are choosing because it's the only hope they have.
This is also a failure of the left though btw. The left is not offering hope, and until the left finds a way to offer hope people will continue to choose naivity if it feels like a possible hope to them.
Honest question: How do people reconcile their approaches to these situations with what Combat Liberalism instructs? Because Mao says fuck your discomfort and yell at people.
It's been awhile since I've read Combat Liberalism, but I thought the context of that was for disputes between people in the same party or organization. If it's someone who's a friend but otherwise isn't struggling alongside you to build communism, I'm not sure what the point of being super insistent on ideological correctness would be.
We live in different times than Mao. I don’t have an answer but it is that which should inform your praxis, not book worship, as it were.
Combat liberalism is more of a list of Mao's personal grievances in the human condition/behaviour under the label of liberalism than anything else. It's a short text written in the context of instilling party discipline then anything else.
Related - how can we possibly be less "moralistic" when it's a moral question of such magnitude as "should people support genocide"?
Personally I think the takeaway from that text in the imperial core context is probably that of class and party collaboration. Your personal relationships with libs are yours to sort out but under no circumstances work to further their bourgeoisie party project.
I haven't read Combat Liberalism (and should), but FWIW I think I'd say Mao's circumstances naturally were also very different in context- it's one thing to say it in the global south, in genuinely brutalized and colonized countries where the masses can be receptive on some level, and another to say it in the heart of empire, surrounded by all those who have benefited from or see their lot as tied with that of the empire (also with a lot of colonized peoples- but even then with varying degrees of similar issues).
I'd say Mao was right, anyways. Fuck the discomfort... but then also we are all only human. We can yell all we want, I've stuck my neck out and gotten into arguments myself, but end of the day we know we're swimming upstream, perhaps even trying to swim up a waterfall- not to say it can't be done, nor to support defeatism, but our energy is finite, self-preservation on some level is valid (supporting the genocide however is wholly invalid and those who do will deserve what they get), and picking and choosing our fights is not only valid, but can be the better strategy (finding receptive audiences, using our energy elsewhere or going where we can actually contribute) than butting our heads up against a wall. If seeing industrial genocide cannot successfully appeal to someone's humanity, nothing will- perhaps the material conditions in the future will be such that they will come to us all the same, or perhaps they will be worn down further still, but what can be said to those supporting, even if due to "lesser evil" bullshit, such atrocities?
It'll only take a few minutes (for real, it's less than 1000 words)! Link
Thanks! Having read it now it is- interesting. Good and unquestionably principles everyone should seek to follow, yet also of course a call to constant self-crit and what I'd call irreligious, tangible, revolutionary virtue.
I'd never really considered such behaviors liberalism, but it's food for thought (and I don't disagree with it). Of course, considering all that is listed, there is no one who doesn't err or who will not err in due time, but it's a means of bettering yourself, society, and protecting the integrity of the revolution or of any org, I suppose. It's definitely something that will be sticking with me.
IMO it is not a useful text. It was a discipline document for militarized cadres that strained itself a bit to claim that things that undermined Mao's preferred direction were liberalism. It is also primarily about intraparty discipline.
All of american society is set up to sitfle your voice. You can be uncomfortable and yell at them but every other person they know, all of the media they consume, and every interaction they have throughout the day is set up to reinforce you're just a crazy hippy or something and the correct answer is to consume and subjugate.
That's not to say you shouldn't do it but the best that you can hope for is they brush you off and then encounter some especially stark contradictions in the next few hours that makes them consider what you said might have a point.
But then the 6 o clock local news, 2 hours of pr8metime TV and then every late night show is gonna try to convince them that's just some weird coincidence.
But that brief moment where they thought "huh this sure seems exactly like what that looney lefty of a friend of mine described earlier" is about our only on ramp and it's important that idea is planted before they encounter a contradictions and some chud tells them its because of immigrants.
