It's a situation that I have been expecting for a while, but I wasn't fully ready to accept it. Specifically it's one of my LGBTQ friends who honestly believes in the democrats will protect them and their partner. I have tried to make the point that both parties are eroding any sort of civility towards all marginalized groups, but fear seems to drive them more than logical observations. They make the excuse that change doesn't happen over night and that the left continues to grow and will have meaningful affects down the road. I fundamentally just don't agree with that idea and vocalize it regularly. More and more it is ending up in a circular argument where I am painted as unrealistic and my rhetoric (leftist rhetoric) is doing more harm than good because it promotes distrust in the only system we have to work with. I try to tell them it's kind of the whole point. We gotta start somewhere if we want to see a better, more representative system, but they are so hung up on the immediate future while simultaneously saying that my idealistic feelings are shortsighted and I cant expect change in the immediate future... The double-talk is wild, I know.
I am trying my hardest to stop from engaging at this point because on the most basic level we agree on a lot of stuff, but they are just way to wrapped up in the fear mongering of the democratic party. They know that the two party system is broken, they know that something drastic needs to change, but they also think that they are powerless to do anything except choose the lesser evil. It pains me because I am watching them do the same shit past generations have done, where they give up on their ideals for the sake of preserving the current status quo that they benefit from. I am legitimately watching them imply "fuck you, got mine" under the guise of civic duty and I hate it. I want nothing more than to be able to finally say "I told you so" without being a smug asshole about it and ruining our friendship.
Thanks for reading my rant. It's probably a bit disjointed, but the frustration is boiling over and I needed to vent to the only group of people that seems to understand the hopelessness of being a disenfranchised leftist.
The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
It's actually so good. All the matrix movies are despite what some would have you believe.
Agreed. The original is the best for many reasons, but every Matrix movie is just very good sci-fi with poignant themes way ahead of their time. The Animatrix is especially incredible, imo. Per a letterboxd review of Reloaded from 2021:
i was lied to for many years this movie fucks
Absolutely. Like I always liked reloaded when I was young because of the action sequences. Then as an adult I was like wait that's only one good part ...
The vibes are excellent. I rewatched them all recently and was blown away by the vibes. So strong. Such a sense of itself many films lack.
And I will watch any movie choreographed by Yuen Woo Ping. He knows how to make human bodies fight in the most beautiful ways.
100%
It takes a special kind of cynicism (which i have attained) to understand that most people gives a shit about each other, especially the people with any sort of power.
For me it's the whole "the left is continuing to grow"
Liberals have been shifting to the right for years. The democratic president is endorsed by dick fucking cheyney, is running on more cruelty on the border, and has completely given up even discussing universal Healthcare, and has completely dropped the ball on abortion.
The liberals are objectively getting worse which is to be expected when their main strategy is justnconceding to republicans on everything.
And it doesn't even bother liberals, they'll tell you with a straight face that bidens the most pro environemnt pro union president in history you can tell them "were drilling more oil than anyone ever anywhere and every time there's a strike you liberals keep saying it's a Russian hoax to hurt democrats"
And they just roll their eyes and fucking act like they're so morally superior your real world examples don't count.
And they just roll their eyes and fucking act like they're so morally superior your real world examples don't count.
UUUUUUUGH!
Yeah its the smugness that gets me the most. Especially my debate lord friends where I almost hear the deep inhale they take before spouting off about the systemic limits.... Of systems they refuse to uproot out of fear of losing access to amazon prime.
Yea the root of the cause is liberals (seemingly intentionally) not actually understanding nefotiation despite the fact they regularly say compromise is their top priority.
You see it in the last strike where theybwere all saying the opening demands were completely unrealistic and then 48 hours later the union had reached a really beneficial deal.
Liberals think if you actually want to get $100 for something an opening bid of $200 is a moral failing.
Liberals negotiate themselves into a corner before their opponents even make an opening offer.
To continue the over simplified example of wanting $100 for something, a liberal woukd say "ideally I want $100 for this but I'm willing to go as low as $60"
Then republicans say "fuck you ill give you $10" and Liberals settle on $5 for the sake of compromise.
Liberals think if you actually want to get $100 for something an opening bid of $200 is a moral failing.
Exactly this.
We must demand true socialism from liberal politicians, so the compromise at least is somewhat acceptable on the short term. (Not that we can
out capitalism...)The minimum program is non-neoliberal economics and anti-imperialism. That's the absolute minimum. IF they are not willing to make a compromise with the left why would I vote for them? Because the other guy is a right-winger? Therefore I should vote for a different right winger with different rhetoric, because allegedly they are less corrupt?
Same shit is happening in Europe with different team colors.
A liberal gay friend of ours literally said to us that he'd vote for [anti-gay far right party] if they had a chance to win against [corrupt anti gay right wing party who had been in power for a a while now], but now he thinks he will vote for [centre right party with dubious credentials], only to stop the BIG BAD WOLF, even though he's a "leftist". It makes no sense.
Social democracy, real social democracy is the compromise, and even that's nowhere near enough in the age of climate cataclysm....
Liberals say I'm not pragmatic... but hey let's say I have 4 core political principles: who's the politician who shares at least 2 with me? Who? Why would I vote for 0 matches? Is this the glorious democracy you speak of? For fucks sake, liberals are exhausting... in many ways more exhausting than right wingers.
It is exhausting. Especially like you say compared to right wingers.
Chuds are aware of the fact and will admit that a lot of their beliefs are just the opposite of whatever you think and they have those beliefs to piss you off.
Liberals have the exact same belief but also claim theirs is the rational and moral belief and actually you're the one being divisive because you don't agree with them the most progressive policy is to shoot all immigrants (and a few of these annoying lefties) into the ocean out of a cannon. Because they're pragmatic and compassionate intellectuals.
Like my knee jerk reaction is to sit that person down and explain to them they aren't a leftist they just want to absolve themselves morally. They are voting for right wing parties, that is mutually exclusive to being a leftist. They aren't progressive they're slightly right of center, just like most people, but they recognize that's a moral failing so they lie to themselves and say they're a leftist even though they're thinking acting and voting light a lib.
It's like all the American libs arguing the democrats are better than republicans on isreal. It doesn't matter how they word it "the party currently doing a genocide is less likely to do a genocide than the party not currently doing a genocide" is never gonna convince anybody who's actually operating in reality. But they can't say "we've decided continuing to do a genocide is more important than getting your vote but also if you don't vote for us we'll consider that a moral failing on your part which makes us superior."
But of course then your being divisive and doing purity tests so the only rational response from your friend is to go full blown right wing because you were mean to them, even thoughthat change wouldn't involve thinking acting or voting any differently.
Truly, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.
Liberals have the exact same belief but also claim theirs is the rational and moral belief
Chuds do this too tbh, even more so because they're claiming they're fighting "evil"
Chuds deep down know they're full of shit and will admit itnsonet8mes. It's the wh9le sartre "never believe the anti semits is unaware of the absurdity of their arguments"
They relish the fact that they just said a bunchnof bullshi6 but they can just go "nuh uh" to any counter argument and watch the lib get mad.
Libs literally believe they're doing the right thing while advocating for the same atrocities and literally look down on you for suggesting the fact they have the same goals and proposals as chids means they're the same.
That's absolutely the line constantly trrotted out by liberals and op said that was their friends justification for voting for kamala.
Blue Maga is very real, millions of people not only think the dems can be pushed left, millions more believe they already are left.
I’m just grateful for my friend who listens to my rants and admits I know way more about it than him.
Unfortunately he’s still just voting for Kamala
Every time we hang out is basically:
Show
We don't drink much these day but I do turn into this when I'm drunk. I remember back before we were married, my wife's best friend used to call me "your communist boyfriend."
Good thing we don't drink a lot now, in the current political climate I'd probably jump on the Hamas love train and death to (various evil entities) slogans too hard and get "your terrorist supporting husband" instead.
The struggle is super relatable. I've taken to letting my lib friends share complaints with us then when voting comes up mentioning PSL and Green parties. They don't live in a swing state but still are visibly shocked by the suggestion.
Yeah, I am the insufferable one like that! However, my lib friend is very well read on politics, they just have way more faith in the systems than I do. He also loves to take the "realist" stance as opposed to my idealistic one.
ok so I'm not deep enough into the hexbear rabbit hole but what do you propose voting then?
Some leftists will tell you that simply participating in American elections is an endorsement of our two party duopoly/oligarchy.
I’m writing in Claudia De la Cruz personally. Obviously she is not going to win, but I refuse to give Democrats my vote. They talk the talk, but do not stand for anything I agree with. In fact they are hardly bothering to pretend to be “progressive” anymore.
I don’t want tax credits for first time home buyers, I want the state to seize the assets of these corporations buying up all the homes in the country.
I don’t want legalized marijuana, I want the owners of private prisons shot and the justice system restructured from what is essentially slave labor to an actual rehabilitative system.
I don’t want tax credits for first time home buyers, I want the state to seize the assets of these corporations buying up all the homes in the country.
I don’t want legalized marijuana, I want the owners of private prisons shot and the justice system restructured from what is essentially slave labor to an actual rehabilitative system.
And so do I, but every vote that isn't for kamala is basically a vote for trump, and he's far worse
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/oct/17/trump-wins-elections-outcomes-stakes
My state hasn’t gone blue since 1964 so that argument doesn’t even begin to work on me.
In that case, if you're sure there's absolutely no chance for a blue win, might as well vote PSL. In hindsight I should have known it would vary by state.
I know people say not to cut off the lib friends and I'm trying not to lose connections that have mattered to me, but it is hard to make myself bother with most of them anymore. I feel like they are just demonstrating they can't be relied upon.
What am I saying, their complete return to "normal" and pretending covid isn't dangerous is 100% demonstrating they can't be trusted
people say not to cut off the lib friends
I think this is honestly just a big cope from people. I know how seriously they take their convictions when they say stuff like this because my militant masking and insistence on accomodations as an immunocompromised person since January 2020 has utterly destroyed my social life and I don't just get to turn the other cheek about that, lol. So yeah, I'm with you. Fuck em. Your world will become far smaller, but what world? A world of people who will abandon you for this? For genocide? For an evening at Applebees? Kill the liberalism in your soul that makes you want to poison yourself in the company of these people and you can begin to figure out how to live.
My social circle is much smaller now and it sucks. But not as much as long covid would. Not as much as playing nice with white supremacist assholes who excuse genocide when it's done against people with my skin color.
It's maddening how many "trust the science" liberals -- many of them tech and science nerds and professionals! -- just ignore when I point out he science of airborne transmission, the science of long covid, the science that says the only way to be pretty safe is if we all mask the fuck up in respirators.
Because respirators somehow ruin the vibe and that's what mattera most, even though they didn't ruin the vibe earlier in the pandemic.
Most confusing of all are the ones who post about updated vaccines and free rapid tests being sent out -- they act like they don't know covid is worth caring about but then occasionally they say shit that demonstrates they know it's still around, and go right back to gathering without masking
Yep. I should have realized covid wouldn't be solved because of how climate change denialism is hegemonic but silly me, I thought people might be able to learn
right there with you – I foolishly thought it might be a turning point that actually made us wake up about climate change 🤦
There were two good weeks or so where it looked like it was going to be possible. Major outlets were running articles with headlines like "It's weird how much of our lives was actually bullshit" and realizing that commuting to work is optional, etc. Then the reaction set in.
Are there any good books yet about the reactionary turn under Covid / after the George Floyd uprising?
There were two good weeks or so where it looked like it was going to be possible. ... Then the reaction set in.
the whiplash from this wounded my heart and then my social circle. genuinely, truly, I had real hope again for a minute, and the way my own friends and family were so eager to just ignore the pandemic and get back to "Normal" shocked me and ruined my regard for those people.
I genuinely thought better of all of them, or I wouldn't have been their friend.
This, this, one thousand times this. We learned that most jobs are inessential! And then we gave the "essential workers" a new honorific, but not sick days!
In my neighborhood someone had a sign that said "Instead of 'back to normal,' shouldn't we try for something better?" But then all the hogs brayed and insisted that things get worse. And so they did.
People call me doomer but I am just witnessing events as they unfold. I do not have hope that it will get better anymore. I don’t.
Not often get to use this so yeah just interesting to see.
Same here! I have all but said this to my one friend. I don’t think the system is equipped to make meaningful change nor do I think society is equipped to make meaningful change to the system.
It’s the major point of contention with my lib friends that yearn for the life they were promised even when they are clearing seeing that it’s not obtainable and probably never was.
This is a theme I’m struggling with a lot. My friends think that them being receptive of my reasons for not joining them for dinner is them caring. They made plans to go out and “since you don’t dine out anymore we understand if you won’t join us, nothx”. How about acknowledging me with a compromise instead of just a passive aggressive “we understand, maybe next time?”
Personalizing this was just my way of relating, but the sentiment is that they really don’t care much more than what will keep good optics. They tote their vaccine status and order the free expired COVID test, but won’t act accordingly when the disease and its affects stare them in the face.
Most confusing of all are the ones who post about updated vaccines and free rapid tests being sent out -- they act like they don't know covid is worth caring about but then occasionally they say shit that demonstrates they know it's still around, and go right back to gathering without masking
I have another group of friends that does this. They tote their vaccine like a seasonal fashion item and post about every time the government is giving out expired COVID tests for free. Meanwhile most of them take no further precautions and then act surprised when they have COVID for the 16th time. Liberal vibe based politics is malicious.
That is a completely different, but totally valid topic that I wasn't even thinking about in this moment. Because I also find that I cant be honest about that either. All my liberal friends know my stance and many of them have accepted it by just not including me in their plans anymore. Which I'm fine with, I hate public gatherings anyway, but yeah, most of them just shrug and say, "it's endemic at this point". As if that is a form of fucking protection. UUUUUUUGH!
The Venn Diagram is nigh a circle because the same brainrot underlies both forms of denying material reality
Talking to some friends last night and people were like "it has no right to be this close!" With like a tinge of fear. Just want to yell whose fault is that? Why doesn't Harris do ANYTHING to address the mountains of concerns people have... No it's allllllll stupid magas.
Another literally made the but she'll do less genocide argument
fuckin a... I have very similar conversations over here too. Victim blaming the disenfranchised and touting an aura of superiority over the "dumb magas"
i die a little inside when people try to absolve Kamala of the crimes of Joe... I tried to make the point that her being a part of the administration means she supports it, there is no nuance imo.
Like you could make some sort of argument that she could be partially absolved... If she did ANYTHING to indicate her resistance. She could trash bidens policies publicly. She could speak via the media directly to Bibi and say that once she's elected she'll immediate stop all shipments. She could
the entire white House.She doesn't so she's chill with it and gets no absolution.
That is my view as well. The only reason she is toeing the line is for the sake of the party, which in itself is part of the fucking problem!
In the end I do not care her reasons for it. Materially she support killing every Palestinian. If she wants absolution whether due to feeling a glint of humanity or merely to win the election is immaterial. But she'd have to indeed go against the party as you say
I don't get it, look at what they've been saying about the palestinian genocide, then look at what they're doing. How could anyone trust them??
USAmericans don't care about foreigners at all so lying about them doesn't even register
Obama lying about holding Wall Street accountable for the crash also didn't register. They go by vibes, and they forget any revelation about any lies that happened more than a day ago.
Their neurotic defense or Biden, even now is completely unacceptable. No one should lead s country if they cannot complete a coherent sentence on live TV without a teleprompter.
Pokemon Blue MAGA bitch asses
The apparent uselessness of the "commander-in-chief" goes to show just how useless the electoral theatre is. It doesn't matter if the hood ornament is a donkey or an elephant the harvester keeps going.
They are extremely powerful when Trump is in charge and are powerless when he is not. He may as well still be president.
I made the point today actually that I am honestly concerned where we go from here now that as a society we have pretty much accepted genocide.
I don't know how much solace this is but genocide already has been an integral part of us-european societies for centuries. The only new thing is that the cracks in the foundation are becoming bigger and more visible. And I don't know how the beast is going to lash out on it's death bed.
I only have a few friends who aren't lib brain poisoned. they have been hard to find, as some of the "leftists" are just about aesthetics and don't engage with any theory, so the glom onto whatever lib talking point reaches them on a visceral level and then regurgitate it whenever the topic is broached. i.e. "the country has right to defend itself"
the genocide in the Middle East has been more galvanizing than most and I really can't engage honestly with those who downplay it to save their own asses from an imagined genocide of their comfortable, financially secure, upper income asses within the highly developed core. like, sorry reality can't compete with the untethered nightmares of libs.
he genocide in the Middle East has been more galvanizing than most and I really can't engage honestly with those who downplay it to save their own asses from an imagined genocide of their comfortable, financially secure, upper income asses within the highly developed core. like, sorry reality can't compete with the untethered nightmares of libs.
Exactly this, I am very hung up, and rightfully so, on the fact that America is aiding and abetting atrocities right now, live on TV. That doesn't mean I think the threat on other marginalized groups is less important. Yes, I think that right wing american politicians are edging at the idea of waging war against LGBTQ people, and thats why I am critical of both mainstream parties. However, the libs think that being critical of democrats will further erode the faith people have in them and drive them towards the republicans.
one of the principles I hold to with left/liberatory politics is "an attack on one is an attack on all" which is why I just can't accept some people saying "no, that actual attack on those other people isn't as big of a deal as the attack I imagine is coming for me."
it's a toxic, wrecker-brained bullshit, ahistorical, and anti-solidarity. they are choosing to sell some humans down the river to theoretically protect themselves in the immediate near future, as though that has ever worked out.
"an attack on one is an attack on all"
That is definitely a sentiment that needs to be at the forefront of these discussions. It's where I differ with some many people. Even tho I don't generally like people, I still care about them. Which sounds weird, but it's how I feel.
I am painted as unrealistic
This shit gets me. I get called "too idealistic" and my response is what does that even mean? I think it's too idealistic for the few to benefit from the work of the many. Seems unsustainable which fits right in to the definitions of idealistic. I think it's idealistic for the Dems to expect a vote when they can't give even token concessions. "Unrealistic" get the fuck out of here 70 years ago we'd be blowing ourselves up in a world war for some crusty declining nobles (and soon we might be told to do it again!) now we watch complete strangers appear to entertain us for 30 seconds and evaporate forever on tiktok wtf do we know about realistic.
This hollow "community" of Democrats will happily cannibalize anyone without a second thought. The least I expect from my lib friends is to vote third party or shut up. Capitalism is a disease. Thanks for ranting so I could rant too
Whenever any of them tell me to "grow up" I can't help but think of the Dead Kennedys line: "I'd rather stay a child and keep my self-respect if being an adult means being like you."
Seriously. Grow up and accept genocide and ecological collapse. Like a responsible adult. Sickening
I think it's idealistic for the Dems to expect a vote when they can't give even token concessions.
DUDE! I run into a situation pretty often where I have to defend my criticisms of democrats against claims that my rhetoric is detrimental to progress. To which I have to tell them that its not my fucking responsibility to make politicians likable. I am not going to stop voicing my frustrations and concerns just because some uncommitted voter might hear me and agree.... If Kamala wants more votes, that's on her to prove the critics wrong, its not on me roll over and say nice things about her and the party. It is ridiculous for the Dems to expect a vote they don't deserve just because they aren't the orange guy.
70 years ago we'd be blowing ourselves up in a world war for some crusty declining nobles (and soon we might be told to do it again!)
hate to break it to you but 70 years ago was 1954.
Too idealistic means that your ideology (in this case socialism or communism) isn't a realistic set of goals that the USA can feasibly pursue in the next administration without a major upheaval and many MANY deaths. If you don't have a violent revolution planned to completely transform America into your image of the perfect country, you're going to have to work within the framework of the system to change it incrementally.
Hate to break it to you but there are already Many many deaths. Caused by the current administration even! Yet we must pragmatically and realistically accept them because of reasons.
Yes, there are a lot of 3rd party candidates you could vote for, you could also put real pressure on the political candidates that are asking for your vote, you can do plenty of things within the framework of the system and exercise your political voice. Voting for
with no qualifiers isn't going to get you what you want sweetie. 
"I accept genocide, climate apocalypse and mass death became I am a sensible grown up. Sitting on my ass doing jack shit and calling it incremental change is going great. Why no, I haven't felt the noose slowly tightening around my own neck yet, that only happens to other people"
I understand we're not going to get communism anytime soon, but using those labels "unrealistic" or "idealistic" are worse than thought terminating. In reality it's far more unrealistic to think we can keep doing what we're doing. It's idealistic to think the status quo of destroying the planet and exploitation can go indefinitely. As always it's
If they were to say there's way too many mini Hitler's in Ford f5000s driving around to do a communism than YEA maybe we can share some thoughts.
Dunno what level of comfort your friend is at, but it really does affect how they react. It's really hard to find real connection for those of us living in Anglo countries.
I feel you. My convos with libs seem like I'm talking to a computer chat bot, the empathy and concern that I'd expect from a real person isn't there. Honestly I usually just limit my lib convos to something simple. For real connections, I find that people become better the further you go from the group in power. So look at middle class cishet white men, and go 180 from there. It's pretty hard to find a genuine person with 3 or more of the above characteristics, although I'm sure that exceptions exist.
Yeah, I have had zero luck so far finding anyone in my life that feels the way I do. I am accepting the fact that I will need to hold my tongue unless I want all the smoke that comes with upsetting lib sensibilities. I have cut plenty of chuds out of my life already, but I know my lib friends are leaps and bounds better and don't deserve the axe yet. However, they are still not at the level they need to be in order to understand or accept my positions on things.
The thing that kills me the most is when I am told that my positions are detrimental to the greater good. Which in their misguided minds is merely keeping the status quo intact.
It's especially miserable because like I said, they are a gay couple who fears the GOP's outward anti-lgbtq rhetoric more than the DNC's covert anti-lgbtq rhetoric. The specific trigger this time around was the Texas governor that blew a dog whistle about gender in sports. My friend brushed it off as "one democrat doesn't represent all of them", which sounded way to much like thin blue line apologia at this point.
At the end of the day, I am realizing that more people than i thought are actually just run of the mill libs. There is nothing I can do really besides wait for conditions to slide further right and hope they realize it too.
Ya you don't need to cut ties with libs, maybe do hobbies and other stuff together. But hold your tongue similar to how you would at work. In the end of the day, they're not your comrades. Maybe drop a word here and there to try to radicalise them, but don't hold any hope up.
I'd suggest to join an org, and try to have more poor friends if that's possible. I know it ain't easy though.
Yeah, I have no intention of cutting ties with them, but have realized that holding my tongue will do wonders for my own mental health as well as the relationships that are based on more than just politics. Like I have said, I dont keep many people around me that dont believe in the same core values, it's just that i put more weight on them in my day to day life. I love treats as much as the next lib, but I don't willfully ignore the damage done in the process of getting the treats. I act in a way to limit that damage even if it means less treats.
Joining an org is an option, would need to be more digital tho, I dont like the public lol.
Anxiety mostly, but I don't think its very healthy to keep succumbing to the feelings. COVID is also the huge factor, but I still mask everywhere I go, so I can solve that problem easily. So it comes back to social anxiety that I do definitely need to work through.
I have no advice on Covid, but I just wanted to mention that the anxiety might be worth it, especially since the anxiety will go away eventually but the relationships should at least last somewhat longer if they are worth anything.
Fair, dealing with social anxiety kind of requires being social I guess haha.
There is daylight between the parties on LGBT issues, IMO. Republicans have placed it as a central pillar, with promises to persecute, and we all know the dems won't go to the mat over this. All it will take is a poison pill slipped into a committee and the dems will say they had no choice.
Dems aren't generally looking to actively persecute queer people, they'll cede ground, but the party as a whole isn't building around it. This IS a distinction. There are donors and notable people that the dems may not want to give up readily (Queer orgs donate and volunteer in numbers, and Hollywood actors are mixed in with enough queer people that it's personal for some of them).
Totally understand that, and that is where the erosion comes into play. Dems constantly being ready to cede ground eventually leads to the floodgates opening when the balance of power shifts harder right.
if they are quiet about it and vote on election day, I honestly don't care all that much.
I just can't stand the people who just immediately accept months out from November that "these are the candidates and these are their policies and you can do nothing about it so I am going to vocally support Kopmala and browbeat anyone who says they won't or is critical of her"
who fears the GOP's outward anti-lgbtq rhetoric more than the DNC's covert anti-lgbtq rhetoric.
malcolm x's foxes and wolves
king's negative vs positive peace
FWIW I'd say your lib friends deserve the axe they're voting for (not that you need to axe them off socially yourself). I get the fears, not AmeriKKKan but from another Anglo country, and as an ethnic Chinese (no PRC citizenship/ties or I'd be packing and planning to leave already lol), queer and trans, coming from an immigrant family and being a naturalized citizen (as a kid) myself, and of course being a commie... well shit's bad. But those who want to toss others under the bus to literal industrial genocide deserve whatever they get if you ask me- and today it's the Palestinians and now the Lebanese, eventually down the line if they don't come under the empire's crosshairs first, it'll be (already is in some considerable level) you and other leftist dissent, or the various other demographics (of fellow citizens) already being stomped down/colonized within the empire...
Hopefully they can learn and become better people. I get how it is, about not wanting to cut them off fully (though also not wanting to talk, that shit is nauseating).
fwiw people are totally out there, even among the libs, that at least give half a shit, or have already given up on the dems. I had a friend come to me last winter, concerned that their (at the time new) SO was on the "fuck biden I aint voting for that old whiteremoved" train, and I had the distinct pleasure of telling them she was right, voting dem does essentially nothing. I was nice about it but like... yeah, good, okay, she sounds based
My convos with libs seem like I'm talking to a computer chat bot, the empathy and concern that I'd expect from a real person isn't there.
I feel exactly the same way. It's called the empathy gap and it's a symptom of racism. This is how they can manage the mental gymnastics of supporting genocide and thinking of themselves as good people. Brown people just matter less to them.
I just tell libs that if they really want Kamala to win, GOTV is historically much more effective than arguing about it. It's my thought-terminating cliché that masks my apathy for their cause with the vaguest sentiment of goodwill.
Change never arrives because the people who own the rest of us suddenly feel charitable.
More and more it is ending up in a circular argument where I am painted as unrealistic and my rhetoric (leftist rhetoric) is doing more harm than good because it promotes distrust in the only system we have to work with.
Noticing genocide is more socially unacceptable than committing it. Also, even recognizing a system is dehumanizing, don'tchaknow.
Thanks for reading my rant. It's probably a bit disjointed, but the frustration is boiling over and I needed to vent to the only group of people that seems to understand the hopelessness of being a disenfranchised leftist.
Right there with you. It's lonely enough already without having to worry about losing friends, and it hardly feels like I'm doing everything I can to fight back against the genociders when I can't even talk about it with my loved ones or get them on the right side.
Yeah, that's the extra layer is feeling like I am talking to a brick wall. If it weren't for the plethora of carrots on sticks that the dems laud over us, they would probably have come around to our side by now.
Honest question: How do people reconcile their approaches to these situations with what Combat Liberalism instructs? Because Mao says fuck your discomfort and yell at people.
It's been awhile since I've read Combat Liberalism, but I thought the context of that was for disputes between people in the same party or organization. If it's someone who's a friend but otherwise isn't struggling alongside you to build communism, I'm not sure what the point of being super insistent on ideological correctness would be.
We live in different times than Mao. I don’t have an answer but it is that which should inform your praxis, not book worship, as it were.
Different times, a different part of the world, and radically different material conditions at that
Related - how can we possibly be less "moralistic" when it's a moral question of such magnitude as "should people support genocide"?
Personally I think the takeaway from that text in the imperial core context is probably that of class and party collaboration. Your personal relationships with libs are yours to sort out but under no circumstances work to further their bourgeoisie party project.
I haven't read Combat Liberalism (and should), but FWIW I think I'd say Mao's circumstances naturally were also very different in context- it's one thing to say it in the global south, in genuinely brutalized and colonized countries where the masses can be receptive on some level, and another to say it in the heart of empire, surrounded by all those who have benefited from or see their lot as tied with that of the empire (also with a lot of colonized peoples- but even then with varying degrees of similar issues).
I'd say Mao was right, anyways. Fuck the discomfort... but then also we are all only human. We can yell all we want, I've stuck my neck out and gotten into arguments myself, but end of the day we know we're swimming upstream, perhaps even trying to swim up a waterfall- not to say it can't be done, nor to support defeatism, but our energy is finite, self-preservation on some level is valid (supporting the genocide however is wholly invalid and those who do will deserve what they get), and picking and choosing our fights is not only valid, but can be the better strategy (finding receptive audiences, using our energy elsewhere or going where we can actually contribute) than butting our heads up against a wall. If seeing industrial genocide cannot successfully appeal to someone's humanity, nothing will- perhaps the material conditions in the future will be such that they will come to us all the same, or perhaps they will be worn down further still, but what can be said to those supporting, even if due to "lesser evil" bullshit, such atrocities?
It'll only take a few minutes (for real, it's less than 1000 words)! Link
Thanks! Having read it now it is- interesting. Good and unquestionably principles everyone should seek to follow, yet also of course a call to constant self-crit and what I'd call irreligious, tangible, revolutionary virtue.
I'd never really considered such behaviors liberalism, but it's food for thought (and I don't disagree with it). Of course, considering all that is listed, there is no one who doesn't err or who will not err in due time, but it's a means of bettering yourself, society, and protecting the integrity of the revolution or of any org, I suppose. It's definitely something that will be sticking with me.
IMO it is not a useful text. It was a discipline document for militarized cadres that strained itself a bit to claim that things that undermined Mao's preferred direction were liberalism. It is also primarily about intraparty discipline.
All of american society is set up to sitfle your voice. You can be uncomfortable and yell at them but every other person they know, all of the media they consume, and every interaction they have throughout the day is set up to reinforce you're just a crazy hippy or something and the correct answer is to consume and subjugate.
That's not to say you shouldn't do it but the best that you can hope for is they brush you off and then encounter some especially stark contradictions in the next few hours that makes them consider what you said might have a point.
But then the 6 o clock local news, 2 hours of pr8metime TV and then every late night show is gonna try to convince them that's just some weird coincidence.
But that brief moment where they thought "huh this sure seems exactly like what that looney lefty of a friend of mine described earlier" is about our only on ramp and it's important that idea is planted before they encounter a contradictions and some chud tells them its because of immigrants.
Combat liberalism is more of a list of Mao's personal grievances in the human condition/behaviour under the label of liberalism than anything else. It's a short text written in the context of instilling party discipline then anything else.
There's a uniting theme in all of the behaviors he highlights of a sort of moral flippancy, of regarding a decision as basically indifferent and then just picking the option you want instead of picking what is best. It makes sense to call this self-entitled version of freedom, where you are not obliged to act rightly but merely fulfill some set of requirements and then have free reign in the rest of it, "liberalism," because that is exactly what many liberal moral frameworks look like, especially the more politically-involved ones (like social contract theory).
Yes, there is a theme that is about subordinating personal advancement (a more liberal tendency) to development of the cadre / party (a more revolutionary tendency). But it is still very focused on that attempt to assert discipline over the cadres/party. Some of the advice is actually toxic to follow in other contexts. For example, I know many proto-MLMs that really take the "you better tell everyone when they are wrong instead of talking about it secretly, that is liberal and advancing yourself" thing to heart and they criticize the crap out of each other to allegedly create "unity" but it actually makes people hate each other. They completely miss how to develop constructive political education in the party because they are interpreting Combat Liberalism as Mao's Guide to Party Behavior, but it isn't even that. The meaning of that line is really more like, "hey you behind-my-back shittalkers tell it to our faces so we can hash it out and minimize factions" and not "you should focus on criticizing in full membership meetings and never air a criticism privately or sit in it for a while".
I will admit that the sparseness of the text combined with the distance in time and space means it's not the sort of thing you can just throw on someone's lap like Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, but I think we ultimately agree.
Probably! I think it is fun to read and entertaining to quote but I think the main issues in Western left organizing are substantially different. I definitely keep "no investigation, no right to speak" in my back pocket though, which is from a somewhat similar but more widely applicable work. I swear to God 90% of Western leftists need to internalize that and shut the fuck up (not speaking about you or anyone on Hexbear lol). So many problems in left orgs could be solved if the people who have spent less than 10 minutes thinking about a topic just didn't jump into conversations to share opinions and then die on a hill.
Mao does not actually say yell at people and burning all available bridges in self-righteous fits of anger instead of searching for ways to interact constructively with people is closer to being what he regarded as liberalism, being that it can be described as "venting personal spite". That segment, like most of them, only applies to intraparty affairs, but that's why I said "closer to". All he says about extraparty interaction is that you should continuously agitate and propagandize.
Yeah I was about to make a similar post - just had a big debate with some older family friends at a party my parents had that are die-hard dems (which was nice, as they're way further left then most other people there).
They were aghast when I said I wasn't voting blue, and had no idea who Claudia or the PSL are, of course.
Got a lot of "this is the most important election ever" and "if he wins democracy is over" of course. But the one that really chapped my biscuits was saying that if he wins, then [my family member] will lose access to reproductive health care and IVF in particular.
So I said yeah right, neither side is going to change a damn thing about that, because they both see it as way too valuable of a carrot/stick to give up campaigning and fundraising on it. If the dems care so much about it, why haven't they actually done anything about it?
"Well Biden's wanted to, but he's been hamstrung by the extremist right!"
So what about those years when he had full congressional majority?
"Oh well yeah, I mean I guess he could have done more there..."
And then we got called away to the rest of the party and never got to continue.
Bonus points for my insistence that both parties intend on continuing the genocide - but ofc he is going to do it worse somehow. When I said I'm not going to vote for Genocide Light™️, they said, "Hell yeah I am! It's better than the other option!", and I sadly beat a dead horse a little more about there actually being more options available and maybe you actually don't have to put your stamp of approval on genocide-with-rainbow-flag-characteristics.
Also bonus-bonus points for one of the two (very sweet, kickass person generally) asking "So what does genocide mean again?" in a completely honest, non-hostile way, indicating that they simply had not engaged with even the thought of such a thing happening before this conversation.
And these are the two that always get in trouble for being too vocal about their left-ish political opinions at these functions.
ofc he is going to do it worse somehow
Push libs on this and they no response: just how, exactly, will he be worse? What specific actions would he do? Because right now we’re pretty much at the limit of what any administration can reasonably do.
I've asked many libs this and all they return with is quotes of trump saying he'll do worse. But not how. Trump lies all the time and yet they believe him that he'll somehow do worse this once.
Yeah it was pretty much this.
"He said he'll flatten it!"
What, like as opposed to the dems, who will write a very strongly worded letter after the bombs they send over are used to flatten the place?
"Well yeah at least they're writing that letter! Better than no letter! "
But the one that really chapped my biscuits was saying that if he wins, then [my family member] will lose access to reproductive health care and IVF in particular.
It's always something like this that they only just realized could tangentially affect them or someone they know. Meanwhile my position is with regards to the overall systemic shortcomings that I feel are just as important even if they don't apply to me. Obviously I care about reproductive rights even tho my partner and I are both sterile (by choice), but I want those rights for everyone else even after I leveraged them for myself!
So what about those years when he had full congressional majority?
They are never ready to answer that, or they just punt the issue to the next scapegoat.
Bonus points for my insistence that both parties intend on continuing the genocide...
Yeah, this was a point I tried to make one time and instead of the "other guy is worse" I got the "Kamala isn't Joe" line. Which made my brain reboot and I don't remember after that, lol.
I got the "Kamala isn't Joe" line.
Right, she's moderately worse: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/08/harris-biden-the-view-00182883
More and more it is ending up in a circular argument where I am painted as unrealistic and my rhetoric (leftist rhetoric) is doing more harm than good because it promotes distrust in the only system we have to work with.
As much as I hate conservatives, you can at least level with them on the front of not trusting their government. They end up as hypocrites and fall in line with any real challenge to American hegemony, however, you can at least get them to admit the system doesn't function well for everyone.
Yeah, but with liberals even if you get them to admit that they just fall back on the stance that "it's just how it is", "change isn't overnight". No shit it's not overnight! So why do we keep punting the start of said change down the road every 4-8 years?!?!?
