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its popular because the west is justifying agression against China, its probably santions, they are scared of the rise of china and now the have to make a reason to be agressive to them, and if they forced China to lower its trade deficit plus open its markets, China its gonna have the same fate as Japan in the 80s.
plus the Genocide narrative also deflects from the concentration camps in the US and the ones in the EU
also deflects from the concentration camps in the US
I know. It's like they only cared about latin people for a month. I guess a real genocide that has been going on for years isn't as exciting as a made up one that's only a year old. You can say anything about it because reality is much slower and horrifying.
dont forget the EU has camps for refugees, which are infested by Covid-19 and they do nothing so the refugees die
I'm not. It's just that the "Uyghur genocide" came suspiciously soon after people were documenting the US concentration camps. But Europe has also been doing that years, they don't give a fuck about it.
You're right that focusing on Zenz isn't effective, but the rest of your post just talks about Zenz.
The effective arguments against the genocide narrative look something like this:
- Plenty of Muslim-majority countries dispute the U.S. narrative about China -- am I supposed to believe that an openly-Islamophobic U.S. government is telling the truth while they're lying?
- The U.S. has a long history of lying about bad things happening in non-white and/or non-capitalist countries to justify action against said countries. We saw this during Cold War I, why would it change in Cold War II?
- If you want to call internment camps genocide but you're unwilling to call the millions of deaths we caused throughout War on Terror genocide, you might be a little biased.
Zenz is only useful if you start getting into individual pieces of evidence. You're not going to have a useful conversation about evidence if they're starting from the assumption that the U.S. narrative is true. You have to show that there's reason to doubt our side of the story first.
I would add to #2, that the US has an interest in creating tensions within China that would lead to destabilizing China and ultimately causing it to break apart. Pretty sure I've seen sources showing the US has focused these efforts on Xinjiang since the 70s.
His religious views are relevant to the issue because he connects the fall of global capitalism to the rise of the antichrist. If it is agreed that China poses a threat to global capitalism, then any claims of his against China must should be viewed with scrutiny because it would be to his interest to manipulate facts to discredit them on the world stage. But you're correct that this should be connected with examples of that manipulation and lack of academic rigor rather than standing on its own.
It'a still popular because it's the mainstream narrative. I don't think it's fair to expect a few thousand teens and young adults to know how to perfectly counteract propaganda.
No, Chapos should be able to counter a states narrative on geopolitics and the fact that we haven't is proof that our arguments are bad :angery:
You focus on his Chinese, but it might be more appropriate to criticise his maths.
He consistently gets percentages wrong by a factor of ten.
So growth targets of 10% become 1%, and IUD implants of 8% become 80%.
He isn’t fluent in Chinese
So are 99.9% of the people here
It’s not verifiable if the gov’t documents he cites are authentic or not
"Maybe they are wrong" is not a convincing argument
Relating back to point 1, the question of: did he even translate the documents correctly?
You not being sure about it does not make it a good argument
And even if they are correctly translated
So... he might not be wrong? 2 of your 3 points were based on the assumption that he is wrong.
The issue is this argument ignores a simple fact, people who speak both Chinese and English fluently exist in spades and it’s pretty dumb to think Zenz doesn’t have access to any of them, unless all Chinese speaking people love the CCP so much they’d refuse to work for Zenz
I've said this before, but you guys should also really refrain from using "400 gorillion" style jokes when talking about Xinjiang, you will look like exactly identical to a holocaust denier to a casual observer (guess where that format originated). Whether or not you think there's a genocide happening, most people probably do since that's what they've heard in the news, and your hilarious japes will get you instantly lumped with Stormfront
My best counter is the fact that almost all the Muslim countries support china and how ughyurs were exempt from China's one child policy.
Then talk about how the numbers arent true - talk about the humans rights defenders study's methodology. Tag on Zenz if you want.
Then admit that you think the re-education camps aren't ideal to build tenor, but double down on the fact that the camps are for de-radicalising and re-integrating people into society. Close by saying that this approach is a billion times better than the West's approach of de-radicalising people by simply killing them.
One time someone said 'i bet you'd complain if the US had re-education camps for extremists' to which I said White Supremacists have done the most terrorist attacks in the US in the past decade, and that I fully sending the chuds to camps.
based on interviews of eight specific Uighur villagers on how many people they think are interned, then extrapolating their predictions on the entirety of Xinjiang
Is it really? I knew the number was bullshit but what the actual fuck.
The best argument is just to lib it up and say Zenz is Dr. Zola from Captain America, then play a clip of him talking on your phone to your lib friends.
I mean, it's popular because it has the word China in it. Zenz can work, you just can't sound insane. What I say is do you really think the US will improve the situation?
The reason they level ad hominem attacks on Zenz is because they're propagandists. They also focus on Zenz because talking about the hacked leaks (Xinjiang papers, China Cables) would bring about comparisons to Snowden and Assange (who, consequently, never shy away talking about the dangers of the Chinese surveillance apparatus).
Worse, when they finally cop to acknowledging these camps exist, they use Orwellian language like "the steep drop in Uighur fertility rates is actually industrialization" and "we're saving these savages from themselves and culturing them" and "there's 30 million people in Xinjiang, what's 2 million anyway rofl"
Propagodas.
Orwellian language like “the steep drop in Uighur fertility rates is actually industrialization”
I don't think you know what "Orwellian" means.
“we’re saving these savages from themselves and culturing them” and “there’s 30 million people in Xinjiang, what’s 2 million anyway rofl”
lol no one here has ever said anything like this, get the fuck out of town
Orwellian is double speak. Calling internment camps "reeducation centers" is one such example.
Yes, people say it here all the time. "There was a lot of Islamic Extremist separatists, and China was justified in reigning them in" Imagine if the US had swept in, put a bunch of Native American children in schools, and slowly socialized them out of their original culture? Oh wait...
You said this was Orwellian:
“the steep drop in Uighur fertility rates is actually industrialization”
That's not remotely Orwellian. It's not remotely double speak. It's offering an alternate explanation for declining fertility rates -- the fact that fertility rates in all kinds of groups drop when they move from underdeveloped, pre-industrial conditions to modern conditions with education, greater material security, healthcare, etc.
If you say your car won't start because it needs new spark plugs, and I point out that maybe you just don't have gas in it, that's not Orwellian double speak, that's just an alternate explanation for what you're observing.
“There was a lot of Islamic Extremist separatists, and China was justified in reigning them in”
If you can't see the difference between this and "we're saving these savages from themselves" or "lol who fucking cares about 2 million Chinese people," once again, get the fuck out of town.
Just wanted to say that what hogposting said about population growth decreasing as the society's material conditions improve is p much universally true around the world. As material conditions improve and the less people are working sustenance farming, the less kids people have because they don't need free farmhands
So you're saying the birth rate of a group in an underdeveloped area dropped to the more-developed national average? And the only explanation you can think of for that is genocide?
Also, real bold move of China to do a super-secret genocide and then just report this information publicly.
If you think fertility rates being cut in half with one year after China decided to clamp down on the region isn't alarming, you're already lost to the kool-aid, comrade.
There's a two-year trend of declining national birthrate. Are they genociding the whole country now?
Ah, so controlling fertility is indeed "genocide"
I'm glad at least one of you came around to acknowledging the reality in the region
post hog and I'll believe whatever State Department propaganda you can dish out
I’ll believe whatever State Department propaganda you can dish out
I mean, your ability to believe State Department propaganda is already on full display. You've demonstrated nuance the goes just above, "I root for the Boston Red Sox because FUCK THE YANKEES!"
Look, do you really care about stopping China's genocide or not? Whip out your dick if you actually want to convince someone
I'll post hog when it's the year of the pig. (Jesus, imagine China devoting an entire year to police.)
