Curious. They claim NATO exists as self defense against a peer enemy, yet their strategies only work against small, relatively defenseless countries!
I mean, has NATO ever tried any of it's strategies on it's peers? Can we say they don't work if they haven't?
The most they've done is wargames and after the Millenium Challenge 2002 shit I don't know if their wargames could even begin to count as an attempt to even model conflict with a near-peer
Should be noted that even then the US lost so comprehensively in the first day of combat that the generals restarted the entire thing and forced the side playing Iran to essentially sit on their hands
NATO is forcing completely absurd tactics and strategies on the Ukrainians that has cost tens of thousands of lives, and this is why we need to support Ukraine even more with more NATO training and wonderweapons!Don't forget, they're also saying that Russia is using human wave attacks which also isn't fair.
"When the one with the rifle gets killed, the one who follows picks up the rifle and sells it to an Italian fascist"
NATO tactics assume air superiority.
I keep harping on this point again and again because I really cannot get across how fucking stupid it is: YOU DO NOT ASSUME AIR SUPREMACY OVER ANOTHER NATION'S AIRSPACE, YOU FUCKING INCOMPETENT IDIOTS. YOU CANNOT PROJECT AIR POWER 500 MILES DEEP INTO A NATION WITH A COMPREHENSIVE AIR DEFENSE NETWORK, RADARS, AND SAM SITES. YOUR STEALTH TECHNOLOGY IS NOT INVINCIBLE, AND YOUR SHITTY OVERPRICED BULLSHIT F-35 WILL GET SHOT DOWN AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND THIS IS WHY YOU REFUSE TO DEPLOY THEM ON ACTUAL FRONTLINES.
Then again, since NATO keeps doubling-down on this idea it just means they're more likely to get fucking annihilated anytime they fight a near-peer in conventional warfare, so critical support to the failson Wunderwaffen generals I guess?
I think it says a lot about the countries NATO has been fighting that something like "assume air superiority" isn't laughed out of the room. It's because they are mostly in the business of destroying third world nations and haven't fought wars nearly so much as campaigns to exterminate resistance.
It's a fundamental flaw in the fascistic thinking of the West. Assuming superiority. "We are the civilized, evolved supreme people, and they are primitive subhumans."
One of my favorite Stalin trivia bits is that he wrote a personal note to a factory berating them for not making enough Ilyushin fighters.
You have let down our country and our Red Army. You have the nerve not to manufacture IL-2s until now. Our Red Army now needs IL-2 aircraft like the air it breathes, like the bread it eats. Shenkman produces one IL-2 a day and Tretyakov builds one or two MiG-3s daily. It is a mockery of our country and the Red Army. I ask you not to try the government's patience, and demand that you manufacture more ILs. This is my final warning.
The assumption is nonsense but completely consistent with NATO transforming itself from a force designed to fight a peer military to a glorified colonial gendarmarie following the collapse of the USSR. They drank their own Kool Aid about the end of history and are paying for it now.
YOUR STEALTH TECHNOLOGY IS NOT INVINCIBLE, AND YOUR SHITTY OVERPRICED BULLSHIT F-35 WILL GET SHOT DOWN AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN
I absolutely need a variant of the "Sorry, We Didn't Know It Was Invisible" poster but for an F-35.
Go look on Reddit, you’ll see the same people who hem and haw that NATO is purely defensive gloating about bombing runs
During NATO's "intervention" in the Balkans, they sent what was at the time the world's most advanced and only existing model of stealth fighter, the F-117, to bomb some shit.
Serbian air defence shot one of them down, and not even by accident, they just straight up saw the "stealth fighter" on radar and smacked it with a missile. Later they put out this balling propaganda poster dunking on the Americans.
You see, we are experts at a tactical doctrine that has been optimized to brutally crush the forces of third world nations after a decade of sanctions. I think it's silly to expect us to be ready to face a foe with as many or more bombs than us, but this doctrine has led us to victory for decades.
I am now hearing that our strategy didn't even exactly work when recently applied in Afghanistan, or back in Vietnam, and Iraq is a coin toss as well, but what's important is that we're experts in it. For example, we successfully reduced Libya to a Mad Max style country in record time, and we're working on repeating that success in Ukraine.
And in the end, what really matters is we made a lot of value for the shareholders in the military industrial complex.
Where’s the evidence that the Ukrainian soldiers have better training? Blind assumption that Western training is inherently superior?
They say Russian POWs are complaining about lack of training, though they of course provide no source for this except for a general handwave of "plenty of interviewed." Others have posted a lot of different sources (with references!) which claim the Ukrainians are generally ill-equipped and barely-trained.
this is why you should never take much stock from what POWs say while in their enemy's custody. from neither Ukrainian nor Russian POWs. It's easy to be like "oh, but they should know! they're first-hand witnesses of what they're talking about!" and that can be true but there's no way of knowing if they've been threatened to say what they said, or if their words have been taken out of context, etc.
If a thousand POWs say nothing, but a single one says "Oh yeah, the Russian/Ukrainian Army actually is doing these horrific acts, I totes saw them doing it, they ordered me to do it, and uhh they're about to collapse!" then that singular opinion will be shouted from the rooftops and it will be generalized and taken as gospel by the opposing side. Propaganda is about emphasising certain facts or opinions over others, even if those certain facts or opinions are held by a tiny minority and are patently false.
Also there's an inverse survivorship bias going on here.
The least trained troops are going to be the most likely to be captured so what statements they make is going to be reflected by whatever the weaknesses happen to be that were contributing factors to them being captured.
They got overrun? Those who are captured are very likely to complain about lack of numbers and lack of support.
They were completely outmatched by better trained forces who used better tactics? Those who are captured are very likely going to complain about lack of training.
Their supply lines were interrupted? They're almost certainly going to complain about a lack of supply.
Never underestimate that those who are captured are probably going to be engaging in some degree of cope.
What you hear in the western narrative is largely shaped by all the strengths of the Ukrainian side and all the deficits of the Russian side (and these often get exaggerated and even universalised). But it's unusual to have much focus on the Ukrainian deficits and the Russian strengths.
Their reserve conscripts are no match for our army of forced volunteers!
No, no, no. Air superiority is when your planes are more expensive. You see, the more pricey the plane the more superior the air. Missiles are cheap, and thus can't contribute to air superiority.
The wine cave warriors are the like the militant faction of the treaterati
armchairs
I think the ones we get in here are mostly sat in gamerchairs tbh
I'm sorry but no amount of training on the Ukrainian side is going to make up for Russia producing 2.5 million shells a year, that's just the maths
If you train them hard enough they turn into Neo from the matrix and can dodge bullets or stop them by pure force of will
French aristocrat knights, c. 14th century: “how dare these English peasants shoot me with longbows!!! Where’s their chivalry!!!”
(Actual military history may vary)
i know you're doing a bit, but only jousting armour was too heavy to stand in. would be hella shitty to be in full plate if you couldnt move
One night I went down the youtube rabbit hole of dudes in full plate showing off their mobility. One dude even swam for a short time doing a sorta breast stroke thing.
Funny you should mention that. They chose still water, had a guide line, and backup. However! Crypto fash dipshit Varg Vikarness tried the same stunt with chain mail. In a river. Nearly drowned his dumbass.
I think Varg just killed his band mate. The gay guy was killed by a different guy in the same scene.
But yep, that asshole.
"It's not fair because all of nato doctorine is based on fighting uprisings without existing state power or militaries"
ah shit, I left the "doctrine to kill poor people" enabled, I forgot to select "peer-to-peer conflict"
shit, sorry y'all, I forgot to research the anti-airforce upgrade in the citadel of adun.
"My superior training assumes you punch yourself multiple times in the face."
US foreign policy is actually just one long shitpost
I still want to know what level of brainworms would lead to them to smugly making a point, defeating that point extensively and then arriving to the conclusion that their point was absolutely correct. Its like their subconsciousness was trying to correct them mid post to no avail.
I think it's just because they have an idealist view of what "better trained" is that doesn't account for that, if you aren't trained for what you are actually doing, you aren't better trained.
Training must always be considered relative to conditions, like evolutionary fitness. We can say that humans are "more evolved" than the Leedsichthys (a prehistoric fish) because they have a longer evolutionary history, but that doesn't mean shit if a human and a revived Leedsichthys are in a diving competition.
Likewise, the portion of training Ukrainian soldiers got that depends on assumed air superiority is literally less relevant than Home Ec cooking classes they might have taken.
I've been seeing this a lot from the libs who've been wandering in here the past few days lol
I love soviet tactics, its literally finding out countering western overcomplicated and extremely expensive wunderwaffen with the cheapest shit
super advanced jets? outfly these 9 missiles that we can replace instantly
Long distance stealth bombers? Attach rocket boosters to a plane that scares the US for decades
Its hilarious
Create a whole naval doctrine centered around carrier's and their defence? Hypersonic cruise missile that blows it up in one hit, rendering almost 80 years of NATO doctrine fucking useless. Hell, even the DPRK has it but somehow america doesn't.
Super complicated top of the line tank hailed the world over (leopards), gets owned by dudes with soviet t72s and t90s
People also tend to forget that the T-34 was operational in 1941 but the Tiger didn't appear on the battlefield until about a year and a half later.
There are plenty of Nazi war diaries of German troops pissing and shitting themselves when they found that their anti-tank weapons couldn't hurt T-34s or KVs in 1941.
There are plenty of Nazi war diaries of German troops pissing and shitting themselves when they found that their anti-tank weapons couldn't hurt T-34s or KVs in 1941.
although not to be a downer, this is mitigated by the fact that t34s were very rare at that point (as the soviets were smack dab in the middle of rearmament). They mostly encountered the weaker BT-7's and T-36 and T38. It took until a year or two until they were really fucked. The Soviets were the only side that truly knew how to win that war, their main tank could go at very high speeds while 1v1ing the tiger tank. Germans were fucked by 43.
Oh you've got super fancy tanks? Have you heard of landmines?
Also a guy in a ditch with a timed satchel explosive, iirc that was a great number of tank deaths in ww2, they would attach it in the perfect spot under a tank and have guys camp out in a hidden trench for days
Yeah modern war has shown that expensive shit just gets blown up. Billion dollar jet blown up by million dollar missile. Launcher for those missiles blown up by thousand dollar bomb drone.
If I'm remembering right that commentor went on to give a very optimistic prognosis for the counteroffensive. Arguing that because the first line of Russian defences near Robotyne had breached: Tokmak will be captured imminently, putting the entire Russian logistical network under threat and severing the land bridge to Crimea, which will then lead to the total collapse of Russian military power in southern Ukraine. It's a nice story but one completely divorced from the actual reality of the counteroffensive.
Show
They're really putting themselves at risk by buying their own bullshit.
According to reddit libs only the first line is actual fighting conscripts then every line behind that is just to shoot retreating russians so once you break through the first line you can casually stroll to Moscow.
Gonna be really hard to explain why they haven't made any progress 6 months after "breaking the line" in the future.
omg I was about to say this was a friendly fire dunk post because I read what they said and assumed they were posting with regular irony instead of sincerity lol. I've said essentially the exact same thing but sarcastically, "vastly superior training" -> assume constant air superiority and no mines against an enemy without productive capacity because you already leveled their country (see air superiority)
On the one hand, having these guys (le redditors and le lemmylords) in charge of the US military would be funny, because they would just order soldiers into the meat grinder ("don't worry, our superior Xbox controllers will be more than enough against those 'mines' and 'missiles'"), but on the other hand, they're stupid enough to do something really life-threatening to the planet (like casually using nukes).
around lol
