I have not cheered for anything. I regret this situation as much as anyone. I simply think that it's plain silly to capitulate to a mafia state that kidnaps and "re-educates" your children, bombs your hospitals and schools, massacres your villages and whose leaders have openly questioned the need for a Ukranian identity. I also think it's quite telling that these "peace appeals" are only made to Ukraine, even though it takes two to tango and Ukraine isn't the one trespassing.
I think the war should continue for as long as Ukrainians are willing to fight. And not because I'm a cartoon villain that wants them all to die; I think any deal with Russia's mafia leadership isn't worth the paper it's printed on. The Russians have already stomped all over the Budapest memorandum that guaranteed Ukraine's territorial sovereignty, why would they honor any other deal? At best the Russians would use the peacetime to resupply and rearm and try again later.
I don't like being painted as someone who is told what to think. I do not think the Ukraine war is a "good one", there are no "good" wars. I simply empathize more with the victims of imperialism and not the perpetrators of imperialism.
That's a challenge rating impossible. I see libs do this constantly. Invasion=imperialism for them, i think mostly because like you said, they want to use our words to sound more left wing even though they don't know what they're saying
I wasn't saying they weren't, improve your reading comprehension. I was saying they weren't doing these things on purpose.
Wait a sec, Egon. How would you know that? If you don't, why claim it? There have been a lot of attacks on civilian infrastructure and reckless attacks in civilian areas. I'm not quite convinced that russia is as innocent as you seem to believe.
Why would you think the best of russia to begin with? They send conscripts & mobilized citizens off to a war that didn't need to happen. They prevent many of their own from leaving the country... it's the poor who will suffer the most.
Why now and not in the beginning? I don't know for sure, but wars often end when one side loses the will to fight ... maybe they are trying to wear
down the will of the Ukrainians and allies? If the Ukrainian media is to believed, it doesn't seem to be working. It sounds like it will be a long one.
Edit: Your last link didn't link to the original OHCHR report, and presents a one-sided view. You can find the proper report linked to from here: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/07/high-commissioner-human-rights-high-numbers-civilian-casualties-ukraine
The press release contains a clear and obvious link to the report itself. I didn't claim otherwise.
You provided a link to some pro-russian propaganda that selectively quoted from what seems to be a fair and balanced report. I provided a link to the press release for the original report, and point out that it has more to it than the selective quotes.
You then claim bad faith. Given the ease with which you claim bad faith whenever anyone argues with you, I think that you should define what you mean by good and bad faith.
And now you promote bullying/violence with the reference to school lockers? Grow up.
Most of the time I am on my phone which isn't the best for essay style responses. If I notice a particular point that is worth commenting on, then I focus on that point. Sometimes I forget to quote just that point which may be confusing, and I apologise for that.
You tend to write a lot and jump all over the place trying to answer everything at once and introduce new points, preempting questions, and throwing in personal criticisms and judgements, which is quite exhausting. I suspect that you also jump to the conclusion that because I am criticising one point, that I am criticising everything.
I used to write work emails a bit like that, until I got similar feedback a few years back. The threaded approach is also common in business messaging apps, shared editing of documents, etc.
I do appreciate your good English. It's far too rare these days.
I wonder whether it would be worth it for hexbear to maintain an FAQ or wiki, as I think you and others spend a lot of time repeating the same things to many people. Sometimes a link is worth a thousand words.
maybe they are trying to wear down the will of the Ukrainians and allies? If the Ukrainian media is to believed, it doesn't seem to be working.
the favorite thing that pro-Ukraine libs love to do is make up a goal for Russia out of thin air and then boast that they haven't achieved it. as if they uniquely understand and can remotely probe the Slavic brain with their superior Western minds. If Ukraine puts combatants inside hospitals or schools, which they have done, then Russia is under no obligation to not hit them. clearly, Russia's track record of not bombing hospitals or schools with civilians inside isn't 100%, because that's almost impossible to do in a war this size without clairvoyant abilities - there is always uncertainty. we don't excuse those hits when they happen, but let's also not pretend that Ukraine hasn't been hitting Russian civilian buildings too.
I simply think that it's plain silly to capitulate to a mafia state that kidnaps and "re-educates" your children, bombs your hospitals and schools, massacres your villages and whose leaders have openly questioned the need for [your] identity
so you support the struggle of the DPR and LPR against Ukraine?
I simply think that it's plain silly to capitulate to a mafia state that kidnaps and "re-educates" your children, bombs your hospitals and schools, massacres your villages and whose leaders have openly questioned the need for an...identity.
Its a cheeky joke that is wondering why the United States has the moral authority to hypocritically police another state for actions that the USA engages in regularly and yet does not receive a fraction of the pushback.
It's also worth pointing out, however, that the USA has been stoking the flames of Russian-Ukraine conflict for decades beginning with Operation Aerodynamics.
Yeah that's fair, these threads aren't great for getting a sense of what people's ideas are here. Especially since folks end up fairly antagonistic and the comments pile up. If you are curious, Here is a pretty good comment on the war, and I do recommend using the search function and just perusing the longer (especially sourced, read the sources!) and more effortful comments.
This is in no way equivalent hahaha. What kinda swill do they hand out in the IRA breakrooms these days?
Russia is invading the heartland of another distinct ethnicity and purging it. Ukraine is not doing that. It is simply clamping down on political liberties to ensure a stable war economy and political situation. This happens in every country that is forced to fight for it's own existence.
Rescuing children from a warzone is genocide? Are you serious, you do realize the majority of those children are native Russian speakers and are reunited with their families when they're located, like you do know those basic facts right, and aren't just talking out your ass?
Those children should have been led to Ukraine to reunite with their Ukranian relatives since they are citizens of Ukraine. And if you are not talking out of your ass, would you kindly provide proof that they're "reunited with their families when they're located" and not just assigned to whichever family is keen to get govt money for raising kids?
MF the Ukrainian state doesn't give a shit about Russian-speaking children or their relatives, hence the fact millions of Russian speaking Ukrainian citizens fled to Russia, their relatives are in Russia and if they're not then it's the responsibility of the Kiev regime to negotiate in good faith with the Russian authorities to reunite the families, but again the nazis in Kiev don't give a fuck about the children beyond their use as propaganda tools
You literally don't know basic facts about Ukraine or the conflict, instead of basing your takes on your bullshit intuition maybe go do some basic research
Why do you assume children from ethnically russian regions, who statistially are more likely to speak russian would be better off being sent to Ukraine than Russia?
I'm sorry, what does that have to do with "purging" as it relates to genocide? Surely you understand that relocating orphans - not "purging" them - and then repatriating them when their Ukrainian family can be found does not constitute genocide, right? This is basic, "what do words mean" level shit, so if you're having trouble here then you might need to take a few steps back on making declarative statements about geopolitics.
lmao the Ukrainian state was committing those actions before the invasion you dumb fuck, hence the civil war between the years 2014 and 2022, also trying to erase the identity of half your population is not an example of a wartime measure, it's ethnic cleansing and the Ukrainians are pretty open about it
Hence why the separatist Russian-speaking regions (especially Crimea) should win the war and prevent the expansion of state backed neo-nazism
Russian and Ukranian are almost the same language, as different as modern English is from Shakespearian English
Why do white people try to create ethnic differences where none exist? Russians and Ukranians are visually / genetically / culturally pretty much identical. It's like saying North Korea invaded South Korea to purge it of Koreans!
God no. I think there's some misinterpretation here. I was saying that blocking the media of an invading country does not equate to genocide. That's it.
That's interesting that you think one of us did the misinterpretation, because that's not what happened - they did not block the import of media produced in Russia. They blocked all Russian language media. There's an important distinction there that I'm certain you will pretend to not understand.
I'm fine admitting the misinterpretation was mine. In that case I think it's a bit too far, also considering the large number of Russian speakers within Ukraine
It's not just a bit too far - it fits most definitions for cultural genocide, particularly when you include that Ukraine banned teaching in Russian, all Russian books in schools, etc. Imagine being a Russian speaking Ukrainian child: all of a sudden all of the books you can read are gone, your teachers must speak Ukrainian.
So we have Ukraine committing cultural genocide, and still zero evidence that Russia is committing any kind of genocide.
Apologies, I’m not great at linking stuff and I’m better at scrolling than posting on mobile.
I’d recommend reading section 3, starting on page ten. I also want to say that this doesn’t to me justify the invasion, but that I can see why Russian speakers/people in both Ukraine and Russia felt threatened
Do you think that it's "too far" or aimed at doing something you are not inclined to admit? It's not like Russia doesn't have people who know Ukrainian and English to publish things in those languages to reach Ukraine for propaganda purposes, but totally unrelated media that just happens to be in Russian (and thereby part of the survival of Russophone culture) is being banned. The goal is not simply fighting Russia, but genuine ethnonationalism.
You know the Russians are contacting family members and reuniting children with families, right? https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-children-returned-illegal-deportations-russia/32355290.html They try to frame it in a vicious manner because the liberal brain is soft and easy to manipulate, but the facts are those children were in Russia and given back to their families.
Here, you attempt to flame Ukraine for shutting down humanitarian corridors because Russians attack them, and your source also states that Russians attack them? Do you even read your sources?
For apparently being a genocide, this war has had less civilian casualties in the nearly year and a half it's been on than there were in the first week of the US invading Iraq.
Different people have different perspectives about the conflict? Different discussions have different topics and histories to bring up depending on the context?
Genocide obviously does matter (I'm not sure who you are insinuating says otherwise), the commenter was discussing how the concept of genocide has been watered down largely as a means to manufacture consent for western military operations. Some people claim that Ukraine was engaging in genocide against the russian minority esp. through violence (by far right military orgs) in the east of Ukraine and legislation that suppresses russian minorities.
If you are confused you should ask some actual questions (or use the search function, find some of the effort posts). You will get genuine answers if you ask in good faith.
But as far as I can tell, you made up the false flag thing entirely because of an image that disappeared. At least that's what I can only assume based on your other comments. No one made that claim (as far as I can see). Please link the comment of someone saying the war in Ukraine is a false flag.
Yeah, I'm not sure what that is on about. If it was actually someone commenting that the war was a false flag they'd probably end up getting roasted because I don't really know what the mechanisms for that would be. It's possible they were talking about the pipeline attack, which depending on how they define a false flag operation could make sense (I have not spent a lot of time looking into the pipeline stuff tbf).
Yeah you’re clearly a bit confused, probably because you’re mixing things people here might say with ridiculous strawmen that you dreamed up and pulled out of your ass.
Interesting. So The Azov brigade invaded their own home country from across the border? Or are you insinuating that they were Russians all along? I'm confused.
You are very clearly playing stupid to try and get out of having to defend eight years of ethnic cleansing by Ukranian nazis, and I want you to know that nobody is buying it.
you asked for an ideal outcome. and that is a very practical outcome.
but fine, ill play ur game. a realistic and practical outcome that i prefer would be Russia preventing Ukraine from entering NATO, limiting the ability for the global empire to conquer everything
Lol all signatories wiped their asses with minsk 2, while Putin played stupid by pretending he had nothing to do with LPR and DPR.
Once Putin realized he wasn't going to get his pro-russian dickriders into Ukraine he literally invoked Godwin's Law and invaded Ukraine because "muh nazis".
Yea I can't believe he called them nazis just because they're wearing black sun patches and painting iron crosses on their tanks and freely admitting their nazis.
enough that even the Western media can't take a photo of a Ukrainian soldier without including fascist symbols somewhere in the photo. also enough that motherfucking Bandera is essentially worshipped as a state deity
I did know. That why I remember the Budapest Memorandum, in which Ukraine's territorial sovereignty was guaranteed by Russia in exchange for their nukes. I wonder why y'all didn't bring that up?
The Budapest memorandum??? You have got to be kidding me. A 30-year old document written shortly after the collapse of the USSR is somehow worthy of discussion? And it's Russia that should be critiqued for breaching it? Euromaidan was a coup of the Ukrainian government led by far right militias funded by the United States Department, which then installed their own puppet government with their picked stooges. This government then continually shelled another russian-speaking part of Ukraine for 8 years (in spite of other treaties I might add). The Budapest memorandum was already trampled by the United States and then Ukraine itself.
You got a response to this upthread that you didn't reply to. Maybe address @Egon@hexbear.net before repeating yourself.
this was 5 years later. Ukraine wouldnt need an alliance if they didnt consistently violate the Minsk agreements by bombing civilians in the DPR and LPR, giving Russia a reasonable casus belli
here is the info abt civilian bombing and here are some other war crimes.
recognizing the DPR and LPR would seriously escalate tensions between Russia and Ukraine/NATO. Russia did, however, maintain informal relations with them, including providing aid. DPR and LPR invited Russia to liberate them from Ukraine. you have no idea what revisionist means if you think thats what im doing here. Russia absolutely had a justified casus belli
recognizing the DPR and LPR would seriously escalate tensions between Russia and Ukraine/NATO
That's why he did it the day before invading. Putin was hoping his separatists in DPR and LPR could weaken Ukraine without getting his hands dirty. When he saw that wasn't working, he got involved.
DPR and LPR invited Russia to liberate them from Ukraine.
Yes, that's kinda what pro-Russian separatists are supposed to do. Next you'll tell me CPC members in Taiwan want one country, two systems.
Oh boy can you start another dunk thread on this so I can flex my myopic, limited understanding of complex socio-political situations and make another fool of myself?
Because my answers won't matter. I'm wholly uneducated on this topic and my point for being here was to act in bad faith and kick the beehive.
After reading so many good faith responses from the posters here, I rightfully feel like a dumbass so I'm tucking tail and trying to diffuse the situation.
I am literally the "joke's on them I was only pretending" meme, and I'm really not proud of it.
Is this a Chamberlain impression? You think Russia is going to stop? Putin is an imperialist megalomaniac who wants fealty and submission.
If Ukraine signs on the dotted line, Putin will take it as explicit approval of his imperialist expansion on behalf of the entire West. There might be months to a year of tenuous peace then he'll march onward until his puppet is sitting in Kyiv and Ukranians are speaking Russian.
It's funny how appeasement is the word liberals drool over. It is their ONLY historical anecdote and used to defend opposing any movement towards peace, ag Korea. The reality is Chamberlain's big crime was no the act of appeasement, it was knowingly stringing along the French and Soviets only to bail officially when there was no means of changing plans for the USSR and Czechoslovakia.
Beyond that the comparison also doesn't work because peace talks had occurred multiple times without excluding relevant parties. Minsk was a thing that happened.
You are still operating on the assumption that Russia can somehow win this war? Despite its best soldiers and equipment already being spent while the Ukies bathe in the latest NATO gear? Sure, they may be having trouble with their counteroffensive, but that don't mean that the Russians can mount one of their own. The best case scenario for Russia is a ceasefire and a North/South Korea situation, with a backwards, authoritarian North (Russia) and a prosperous, democratic South (Ukraine).
Democracy is when you have streets named after literal fascists leading to the sites of the Holocaust.
Also that equipment is not winning Ukraine any territory back. That's like saying the Soviets couldn't win WW2 in late 1944 because Germany was developing a jet fighter at that time.
You are still operating on the assumption that Russia can somehow win this war?
Yeah, it's so stupid to believe this, I mean, look at who's doing all the conscriptions. Oh. Fuck. Uh, okay, look who has doesn't have a functional air force and is chronically short on ammunition, as admitted by the actual president of the actual United States (who, I hope you agree, is not a puppet of Putin). Hm. Well, look at all the territory that Russia still has in Ukraine! They must be just down a few villages by now considering that Russia is completely out of missiles, is fighting with shovels, is out of artillery, has no ammo, their soldiers are completely demoralized and also all dead! Fuck. Shit.
Look, if Russia's army is so awful, so utterly and completely imcompetent, so out of ammunition, so demoralized, and Ukraine still can't make a sizable dent in their defences after two months, then holy shit, Ukraine's army must be fucking terrible. Like, holy shit it must be bad.
The people having lost are the people being dead, the families separated and people traumatized. Like in all wars. The victims are mostly the working class.
That said, there are plenty of ways to spin winning and losing for both Ukraine and Russia. Of course for NATO this war war somewhat good, but there can be a couple of things be found that are bad, will not focus on that though.
Having secured the Krim, having secured a Krim land bridge, having ensured a close alignment of Donbas and Luhansk, having secured control over the Sea of Azov and in addition relevant parts of the North Western section of the Black Sea (and with that ensured access to gas and other resources while denying it to Ukraine), having the river as border in the South between the occupied territories and Ukraine, with mined and defended territory near Donetsk Oblast reduced the open flank of Russia (and its Krim) somewhat. This means millions of people who are effectively living on territory controlled by Russia. This also means a propaganda victory for Putin and thus support from some circles of nationalist society in Russia (for which the education in military basics adds something, too).
Hard to call all those things failures. That said during a war of attrition and position war is slow till it isn't anymore. I am not on the side of Russia, but I can see how stuff could be spun.
It's honestly really insulting how you just completely ignore entire paragraphs someone spent time writing for you after saying you were interested and willing to learn.
Damn this is like, triple-distilled Kremlin Copium Reserve right here. Putin is an entirely rational actor? Lmfao! Is that why he picked a fight with a country a quarter the size of his and got a black eye? Is that why he flip-flopped in the Budapest memorandum? Is that why he blew up Priggy and pals for everyone to see?
Also, what kinda American provocations are you talking about? Was it the billions in IMF money Russia got in the 90s? That was provocative for sure. Or is it when they sent a spy to infiltrate your ruling party? Oh wait, Butina was Russian, it was the other way around, nevermind.
also didn't it come out later that african states had gotten russia and ukraine to get peace agreements in place so russia withdrew to the single eastern front?
That's fucking hilarious because Kyiv not falling in a week has been touted as a Ukrainian victory even though it was them who set that goal and them literally declaring victory while the russians actually accomplished all their stated goals.
Since your such a military genius it's weird how the concept of cutting supply lines to the territories you're trying to take is an unfamiliar concept. Obviously they weren't trying to stop supplies to the actual contested regions they were just yoloing a mission to a capital they never claimed as a goal for no apparent reason.
Russia: currently holding all the territory they said they wanted to take before the invasion and for the last decade
Ukraine: conscripting people to throw at russian defenses resulting in tens of thousands of deaths and retaking zero ground, complaining that the counter offensive is failing because Russia is cheating by using anti tank mines to stop tanks
Schroedinger's Russia: simultaneously on the brink of defeat and collapse, but also this close to taking over all of Europe if we dont send $80 billion more dollars to some nazis right now.
What’s actually possible as part of negotiations? This would be (an) ideal outcome to me (but is still never going to happen):
my general ideal framework for a potential peace agreement is obnoxiously long so I put it in this spoiler
1) Ukraine agrees to commit to purging their military and government of white supremacists (and Russia agrees to do the same! Although I think you’ll find that they wont have nearly the same kind of problem). This includes any official or officer who has said things like Russians being “Asian” or some other nazi dogwhistle bs like that. Oh and also anyone who has glorified Bandera in anyway, they’ve got to go too (he is seriously irredeemable, please look up the history of the OUN and all the truly horrible white supremacist shit they did)
2) Ukraine agrees to never attempt to join Nato again because of Russia’s valid security concerns. This is probably by far the most important measure, and it should be put into the agreement that any attempts to skirt around this will be met with military force.
3) After maybe a year to give everything time to settle down, all territory that Russia either fully or partially occupies is given a referendum on whether they want to be fully reintegrated into Ukraine, reintegrated but given autonomy, integrated into Russia but given autonomy, or fully integrated into Russia. As part of this Ukraine must also demilitarize to a certain extent so they don’t just start shelling any autonomous territories like they did before. Ukraine must also give up any claim to these territories that vote to integrate as part of Russia, including Crimea.
4) Russia agrees to help de-mine/de-bomb both Ukrainian territory and newly integrated Russian territory (NATO should also be a part of this particular part, but good luck getting them to actually help once the war is over)
5) Russia commits to a plan to help reunite families torn apart by the war, and both governments set up a plan to support war orphans so they don’t fall into human trafficking rings.
6) Russia helps Ukraine re-establish its peacetime agricultural production in return for certain economic trade agreements remaining favorable to Russia for a certain period of time.
7) Finally a joint commission to investigate war crimes committed by either of the 2 sides, and agreeing to abide by their findings.
(Final notes: As a part of #3 it will only be a ceasefire until certain things are completed, and would be broken by obvious signs of aggression etc. etc.)
I doubt any of this will actually happen because Ukraine’s government has been instructed by its western masters supplying it with all of its weaponry to not negotiate or else they will cut their weapon supply off, which will immediately weaken their position at any negotiating table with Russia.
an even longer obnoxiously long explanation of my position
These probably seems overly favorable to Russia, and they are favorable towards them, because they’re well positioned to win any war of attrition, so they’re in no hurry to give favorable terms to Ukraine, but I also laid out some propositions that would benefit Ukraine. Honestly, a few of my propositions may even be too favorable to Ukraine for what the Russian government would be willing to accept. Also, they help Ukrainian proles, not bourgeois really, so the Ukrainian government may not even like those propositions that are supposed to be favorable towards Ukraine! Still, this is roughly what I would hope to see coming out of a peace agreement between the two.
If you really can’t accept that these are the best terms Ukraine could get, I’ll just say they should have accepted the peace deal (and its much more favorable terms) a year ago before good ole Boris Johnson meddled and convinced them they could either win or get better terms later somehow. Every month that they wait their position gets weaker, and the terms will be more and more favorable to Russia. I would prefer that tens of thousands of more Ukrainians and Russians not die just for Russia to have better terms for Ukraine’s inevitable surrender, so ideally they should negotiate now, not then. The only way the tide of this war turns is if NATO actually gets directly involved, and I would really hope that we don’t risk nuclear annihilation over a war between two bourgeois-led states.
We could argue about the inevitability of Ukraine’s defeat, I guess, but I seriously doubt either of us are well educated on military affairs so that would be a pointless argument, I’m pretty much just having to go based off of what people I trust say in this field and do what little research I can to make sure they’re not just completely making something up.
My final statement is that I’ve seen convincing arguments that even if Zelensky tried to negotiate at this point, the fascists he’s surrounded himself with would just kill him and take power to keep the war going, so this is all could just be useless speculating anyways.
Ah you’re too kind, I think I ramble a bit much when I try to write out effort posts which is why I used the spoilers to make it easier to ignore my rambling haha
The new border between Russia and Ukraine will be defined by the crater caused by the impact of a giant meteor which gives both parties something more pressing to deal with.
Not speaking for everyone here but an ideal outcome would be:
Peace treaty
Russia gets to keep crimea because there is 0 chance that Russians will give up Crimea. Also Ukraine can no longer try to start a drought there. The donbass gets an option to stay in Ukraine with actual guarantee that Ukraine will not try to bomb them again, independence or joining Russia depending on vote.
The other two oblasts go back to Ukraine as long as Ukraine doesn't prosecute anyone for "collaboration" like they did with garbage collectors and other civil servants in Kherson.
Removal of Nazis from government positions in Ukraine. Destruction of Nazi paramilitaries. Removing ban from Socialism and banning nazism instead.
Putin dies or something and hopefully Russia doesn't collapse.
Further outcomes would be that Ukraine doesn't pay back the loans to the west because they simply can't afford to. I have no idea how they'll manage post war even if they win or lose. Worker rights in Ukraine have been demolished and the country has been sold to Blackrock and Co.. And with Ukraine sending their working age population to the meat grinder, the future becomes bleaker every day.
Hey just a heads up that lib you complimented on having a nice discussion just told me I was huffing copium for saying Russia was winning because they've taken and held all the territory they stated they wanted to before the war
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Yeah they should just submit to a genocidal invader! That's WAY better than dying!
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I have not cheered for anything. I regret this situation as much as anyone. I simply think that it's plain silly to capitulate to a mafia state that kidnaps and "re-educates" your children, bombs your hospitals and schools, massacres your villages and whose leaders have openly questioned the need for a Ukranian identity. I also think it's quite telling that these "peace appeals" are only made to Ukraine, even though it takes two to tango and Ukraine isn't the one trespassing.
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Wow dude, this little number you've written here has so many logical fallacies and projections.
First of all, in no way am I defending the US invasions of the Middle East. Shit was bad and unnecessary.
Second of all, Russians are absolutely bombing hospitals and buildings full of children. They bombed a building in Mariupol that was used to house children and had that written on the roof. I'm also worried that they're kidnapping children and robbing them of their Ukranian identity.
I think the war should continue for as long as Ukrainians are willing to fight. And not because I'm a cartoon villain that wants them all to die; I think any deal with Russia's mafia leadership isn't worth the paper it's printed on. The Russians have already stomped all over the Budapest memorandum that guaranteed Ukraine's territorial sovereignty, why would they honor any other deal? At best the Russians would use the peacetime to resupply and rearm and try again later.
The people who lied to you about those wars are telling you today's war is totally a good one. Why would you believe them?
because russia is bad country
I don't like being painted as someone who is told what to think. I do not think the Ukraine war is a "good one", there are no "good" wars. I simply empathize more with the victims of imperialism and not the perpetrators of imperialism.
imperialism isn't "when a country invades another country" for fuck's sake, stop dressing your libshit in the facade of left-wing rhetoric.
That's a challenge rating impossible. I see libs do this constantly. Invasion=imperialism for them, i think mostly because like you said, they want to use our words to sound more left wing even though they don't know what they're saying
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Wait a sec, Egon. How would you know that? If you don't, why claim it? There have been a lot of attacks on civilian infrastructure and reckless attacks in civilian areas. I'm not quite convinced that russia is as innocent as you seem to believe.
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Why would you think the best of russia to begin with? They send conscripts & mobilized citizens off to a war that didn't need to happen. They prevent many of their own from leaving the country... it's the poor who will suffer the most.
Why now and not in the beginning? I don't know for sure, but wars often end when one side loses the will to fight ... maybe they are trying to wear down the will of the Ukrainians and allies? If the Ukrainian media is to believed, it doesn't seem to be working. It sounds like it will be a long one.
Edit: Your last link didn't link to the original OHCHR report, and presents a one-sided view. You can find the proper report linked to from here: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/07/high-commissioner-human-rights-high-numbers-civilian-casualties-ukraine
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The press release contains a clear and obvious link to the report itself. I didn't claim otherwise.
You provided a link to some pro-russian propaganda that selectively quoted from what seems to be a fair and balanced report. I provided a link to the press release for the original report, and point out that it has more to it than the selective quotes.
You then claim bad faith. Given the ease with which you claim bad faith whenever anyone argues with you, I think that you should define what you mean by good and bad faith.
And now you promote bullying/violence with the reference to school lockers? Grow up.
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Nitpicking says the guy who whined about a clearly marked edit on a comment. Whatever man.
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Most of the time I am on my phone which isn't the best for essay style responses. If I notice a particular point that is worth commenting on, then I focus on that point. Sometimes I forget to quote just that point which may be confusing, and I apologise for that.
You tend to write a lot and jump all over the place trying to answer everything at once and introduce new points, preempting questions, and throwing in personal criticisms and judgements, which is quite exhausting. I suspect that you also jump to the conclusion that because I am criticising one point, that I am criticising everything.
I used to write work emails a bit like that, until I got similar feedback a few years back. The threaded approach is also common in business messaging apps, shared editing of documents, etc.
I do appreciate your good English. It's far too rare these days.
I wonder whether it would be worth it for hexbear to maintain an FAQ or wiki, as I think you and others spend a lot of time repeating the same things to many people. Sometimes a link is worth a thousand words.
the favorite thing that pro-Ukraine libs love to do is make up a goal for Russia out of thin air and then boast that they haven't achieved it. as if they uniquely understand and can remotely probe the Slavic brain with their superior Western minds. If Ukraine puts combatants inside hospitals or schools, which they have done, then Russia is under no obligation to not hit them. clearly, Russia's track record of not bombing hospitals or schools with civilians inside isn't 100%, because that's almost impossible to do in a war this size without clairvoyant abilities - there is always uncertainty. we don't excuse those hits when they happen, but let's also not pretend that Ukraine hasn't been hitting Russian civilian buildings too.
so you support the struggle of the DPR and LPR against Ukraine?
sorry not totally clear, you talking about USA?
How did the US. get Putin to invade Ukraine? I'm trying to follow the logic but I keep getting stuck on that one.
Weird, I got this as a reply but then it was just gone:
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So the implication is that the Russian invasion was (and continues to be?) a false flag?
Yeah, I'm still not seeing how the US got Putin to go along with this false flag, any more details?
They were engaging in a dang whataboutism
Its a cheeky joke that is wondering why the United States has the moral authority to hypocritically police another state for actions that the USA engages in regularly and yet does not receive a fraction of the pushback.
It's also worth pointing out, however, that the USA has been stoking the flames of Russian-Ukraine conflict for decades beginning with Operation Aerodynamics.
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Yeah that's fair, these threads aren't great for getting a sense of what people's ideas are here. Especially since folks end up fairly antagonistic and the comments pile up. If you are curious, Here is a pretty good comment on the war, and I do recommend using the search function and just perusing the longer (especially sourced, read the sources!) and more effortful comments.
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Don't worry, the people of the Donbass and Crimea will never surrender to a bunch of western armed Ukrainian Nazis
define genocide
The intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part. Russia is doing that to Ukraine.
We have evidence of Ukraine banning the use of the Russian language, import of Russian books, Russian music, the banning of "pro-Russian" political parties. So we know Ukraine is engaging in what could be called cultural genocide. I'd love to see your evidence of actual genocide happening, though. I'm sure it's real!
This is in no way equivalent hahaha. What kinda swill do they hand out in the IRA breakrooms these days?
Russia is invading the heartland of another distinct ethnicity and purging it. Ukraine is not doing that. It is simply clamping down on political liberties to ensure a stable war economy and political situation. This happens in every country that is forced to fight for it's own existence.
Please show evidence of this.
Kidnapping Ukranian children and forcibly adopting them into Russian families is genocide. It is an explicit attempt to erase Ukranian culture.
Rescuing children from a warzone is genocide? Are you serious, you do realize the majority of those children are native Russian speakers and are reunited with their families when they're located, like you do know those basic facts right, and aren't just talking out your ass?
Those children should have been led to Ukraine to reunite with their Ukranian relatives since they are citizens of Ukraine. And if you are not talking out of your ass, would you kindly provide proof that they're "reunited with their families when they're located" and not just assigned to whichever family is keen to get govt money for raising kids?
MF the Ukrainian state doesn't give a shit about Russian-speaking children or their relatives, hence the fact millions of Russian speaking Ukrainian citizens fled to Russia, their relatives are in Russia and if they're not then it's the responsibility of the Kiev regime to negotiate in good faith with the Russian authorities to reunite the families, but again the nazis in Kiev don't give a fuck about the children beyond their use as propaganda tools
You literally don't know basic facts about Ukraine or the conflict, instead of basing your takes on your bullshit intuition maybe go do some basic research
those kids were returned when Ukraine asked for them back
Why do you assume children from ethnically russian regions, who statistially are more likely to speak russian would be better off being sent to Ukraine than Russia?
I'm sorry, what does that have to do with "purging" as it relates to genocide? Surely you understand that relocating orphans - not "purging" them - and then repatriating them when their Ukrainian family can be found does not constitute genocide, right? This is basic, "what do words mean" level shit, so if you're having trouble here then you might need to take a few steps back on making declarative statements about geopolitics.
lmao the Ukrainian state was committing those actions before the invasion you dumb fuck, hence the civil war between the years 2014 and 2022, also trying to erase the identity of half your population is not an example of a wartime measure, it's ethnic cleansing and the Ukrainians are pretty open about it
Hence why the separatist Russian-speaking regions (especially Crimea) should win the war and prevent the expansion of state backed neo-nazism
Perhaps the Ukrainians should concentrate the population that shows Russian sympathy into small campsYou know, to keep a better eye on them and to ensure the security of the Ukrainian identity against the perfidy of the Russian abhumansFunny that one of the Baltic states proposed exactly this.
lemme guess
SStonia?
Do you think Russia is running death camps? Where are these purges supposedly taking place?
Why do white people try to create ethnic differences where none exist? Russians and Ukranians are visually / genetically / culturally pretty much identical. It's like saying North Korea invaded South Korea to purge it of Koreans!
"not submitting to the ideological propaganda pushed by your oppressor is literally genocide"
So if chinese language is taught in your country and chinese publications are sold, this means your nation and culture has submitted to China?
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Well that depends, is China invading my country?
okay so genocide is a maybe for you
why is it that every time a .dev shows up they immediately start going full nazi
hackernews brain
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God no. I think there's some misinterpretation here. I was saying that blocking the media of an invading country does not equate to genocide. That's it.
That's interesting that you think one of us did the misinterpretation, because that's not what happened - they did not block the import of media produced in Russia. They blocked all Russian language media. There's an important distinction there that I'm certain you will pretend to not understand.
I'm fine admitting the misinterpretation was mine. In that case I think it's a bit too far, also considering the large number of Russian speakers within Ukraine
It's not just a bit too far - it fits most definitions for cultural genocide, particularly when you include that Ukraine banned teaching in Russian, all Russian books in schools, etc. Imagine being a Russian speaking Ukrainian child: all of a sudden all of the books you can read are gone, your teachers must speak Ukrainian.
So we have Ukraine committing cultural genocide, and still zero evidence that Russia is committing any kind of genocide.
They also tried to ban Yiddish and Belarusian along with Russian in 2019: https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/?pdf=CDL-AD(2019)032-e
Thanks for the document. I'm a bit confused because I can't find where the Commission's opinion agrees with your statement. Can you help me find it?
Apologies, I’m not great at linking stuff and I’m better at scrolling than posting on mobile.
I’d recommend reading section 3, starting on page ten. I also want to say that this doesn’t to me justify the invasion, but that I can see why Russian speakers/people in both Ukraine and Russia felt threatened
Do you think that it's "too far" or aimed at doing something you are not inclined to admit? It's not like Russia doesn't have people who know Ukrainian and English to publish things in those languages to reach Ukraine for propaganda purposes, but totally unrelated media that just happens to be in Russian (and thereby part of the survival of Russophone culture) is being banned. The goal is not simply fighting Russia, but genuine ethnonationalism.
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It doesn't depend, and I hope you know that.
proof?
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By this metric all war is genocide
So the western liberal believes that orphans should be left in a war zone?
Ukraine uses child soldiers and brag about it so it's a wholesome thing now I guess.
Are you saying that there are only two options? You either leave them to die or indoctrinate them into Russian families? No in-between?
You know the Russians are contacting family members and reuniting children with families, right? https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-children-returned-illegal-deportations-russia/32355290.html They try to frame it in a vicious manner because the liberal brain is soft and easy to manipulate, but the facts are those children were in Russia and given back to their families.
You're just making up unhinged fantasies.
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you havent sourced all ur claims, you hide unsourced claims in between claims backed with the flimsiest sources. wikipedia warrior, go back to
Are the russians in the room with you right now?
Russiagate absolutely flattened the liberal brain. Truly as smooth as glass.
source?
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Hmmm
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Well that was a horrifying read.
Here, you attempt to flame Ukraine for shutting down humanitarian corridors because Russians attack them, and your source also states that Russians attack them? Do you even read your sources?
And this doesn't even mention that, when Russia opened their own humanitarian corridors, they conveniently only led to Russian or allied Belarusian territory (instead of back to Ukraine, where a lot of these fleeing Ukranians wanted to go).
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So they set up in this "strategic" care home and refused to assist an evacuation? That's a nightmare
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I don't like the russians all that much, but ukraine is literally just throwing people away to regain territory trying to free itself from them
fucking nazis
what would you do, oh paragon of morality? give them to ur heroic western human traffickers?
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no. im claiming that opportunistic westerners are coming into Ukraine to kidnap women and children. here’s a UN report. an article and one woman’s story
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this is the only part of ur comment that could feasibly be considered genocide and you didnt provide a source. and wikipedia isnt a reliable source
and Ukraine has been bombing civilian centers for the past decade. and that is well documented. maybe Ukraine is the real genocidal power
No just no. I lot of Ukrainians live in Russia or fled to russia. Russia would've started with them first if they wanted to do something that.
It's a imperialist war at best started to secure a very strategically important location.
Im sorry but the Donbass and crimeans are winning, so they are safe from the genociders. You don't have to worry anymore.
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I don't think the people getting genocided care about dictionaries or philosophy.
For apparently being a genocide, this war has had less civilian casualties in the nearly year and a half it's been on than there were in the first week of the US invading Iraq.
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Different people have different perspectives about the conflict? Different discussions have different topics and histories to bring up depending on the context?
Genocide obviously does matter (I'm not sure who you are insinuating says otherwise), the commenter was discussing how the concept of genocide has been watered down largely as a means to manufacture consent for western military operations. Some people claim that Ukraine was engaging in genocide against the russian minority esp. through violence (by far right military orgs) in the east of Ukraine and legislation that suppresses russian minorities.
If you are confused you should ask some actual questions (or use the search function, find some of the effort posts). You will get genuine answers if you ask in good faith.
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But as far as I can tell, you made up the false flag thing entirely because of an image that disappeared. At least that's what I can only assume based on your other comments. No one made that claim (as far as I can see). Please link the comment of someone saying the war in Ukraine is a false flag.
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Yeah, I'm not sure what that is on about. If it was actually someone commenting that the war was a false flag they'd probably end up getting roasted because I don't really know what the mechanisms for that would be. It's possible they were talking about the pipeline attack, which depending on how they define a false flag operation could make sense (I have not spent a lot of time looking into the pipeline stuff tbf).
Yeah you’re clearly a bit confused, probably because you’re mixing things people here might say with ridiculous strawmen that you dreamed up and pulled out of your ass.
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True, they probably care more that the Azov goons that were doing it to them are hamburger now.
Interesting. So The Azov brigade invaded their own home country from across the border? Or are you insinuating that they were Russians all along? I'm confused.
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You are very clearly playing stupid to try and get out of having to defend eight years of ethnic cleansing by Ukranian nazis, and I want you to know that nobody is buying it.
No, you’ve just admitted to not recognizing obvious sarcasm
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"it's senseless to resist Putin, give your country to him and nobody will get hurt"
Serious mode: what is your ideal outcome of this conflict? I'm genuinely interested and willing (and hopefully able) to learn.
The ideal situation is the USSR is reinstated and Zelensky and Putin get sent to the gulag together.
o7 to that
The Slavaboos would immediately start crying either way
proletarian revolutions in Russia and Ukraine
Sure that would be ideal, but let's talk about realistic and practical outcomes.
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you asked for an ideal outcome. and that is a very practical outcome.
but fine, ill play ur game. a realistic and practical outcome that i prefer would be Russia preventing Ukraine from entering NATO, limiting the ability for the global empire to conquer everything
if Putin never invaded, Ukraine wouldn't be trying to join NATO
This is some strong "stop hitting yourself" energy
And if ukraine hadn't violated rhe Minsk agreement Russia wouldn't have done that.
Fun fact did you know there's history before the last 2 years?
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Lol all signatories wiped their asses with minsk 2, while Putin played stupid by pretending he had nothing to do with LPR and DPR.
Once Putin realized he wasn't going to get his pro-russian dickriders into Ukraine he literally invoked Godwin's Law and invaded Ukraine because "muh nazis".
Yea I can't believe he called them nazis just because they're wearing black sun patches and painting iron crosses on their tanks and freely admitting their nazis.
How many nazis are in Ukraine?
At least three
Oh, better invade the country then
Don't worry America is next
enough that even the Western media can't take a photo of a Ukrainian soldier without including fascist symbols somewhere in the photo. also enough that motherfucking Bandera is essentially worshipped as a state deity
I did know. That why I remember the Budapest Memorandum, in which Ukraine's territorial sovereignty was guaranteed by Russia in exchange for their nukes. I wonder why y'all didn't bring that up?
You got a response to this upthread that you didn't reply to. Maybe address @Egon@hexbear.net before repeating yourself.
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Happy to help haha.
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that’s funny bc this western source shows that in 2019, Ukraine amended their constitution to include a commitment to join NATO and the EU
Yeah, because in 2014, half their country was occupied by a foreign invader lol.
Oh no my neighbor is seeking alliances after I annexed their shit, how conniving of them!
this was 5 years later. Ukraine wouldnt need an alliance if they didnt consistently violate the Minsk agreements by bombing civilians in the DPR and LPR, giving Russia a reasonable casus belli
Time isn't linear silly
Proof?
Putin didn't even recognize DPR and LPR until the day before he invaded Ukraine. This is some concentrated revisionist history.
here is the info abt civilian bombing and here are some other war crimes.
recognizing the DPR and LPR would seriously escalate tensions between Russia and Ukraine/NATO. Russia did, however, maintain informal relations with them, including providing aid. DPR and LPR invited Russia to liberate them from Ukraine. you have no idea what revisionist means if you think thats what im doing here. Russia absolutely had a justified casus belli
That's why he did it the day before invading. Putin was hoping his separatists in DPR and LPR could weaken Ukraine without getting his hands dirty. When he saw that wasn't working, he got involved.
Yes, that's kinda what pro-Russian separatists are supposed to do. Next you'll tell me CPC members in Taiwan want one country, two systems.
Sorry I'm still not seeing it
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Oh boy can you start another dunk thread on this so I can flex my myopic, limited understanding of complex socio-political situations and make another fool of myself?
nobody should be getting as owned as you are twice in 24 hours, that's just cruel
Not a bad idea tbh, you're incredibly uninformed and that's what we thrive on.
You suffer so other people can learn
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Minor detail, but I think it was 6 days before the invasion.
split the difference, three days? He officially recognized LPR and DPR on 21 Feb and invaded Ukraine on 24 Feb
Ah, I thought he recognized them, declared their annexation three days later, and invaded three days after that.
https://files.catbox.moe/dmdkbs.mp4
???
I'll flip that one back on you, what's your realistic and practical outcome?
Implementation of the Minsk agreements and ceasefire in Donbass?
Referendums in the region to find out what the people in the occupied territories actually want?
Return of land to the collectives that had it ripped from them after the war heated up?
Or are you just jingoistic and care about the territorial holdings of nation states that don't represent the will of their people?
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Because my answers won't matter. I'm wholly uneducated on this topic and my point for being here was to act in bad faith and kick the beehive.
After reading so many good faith responses from the posters here, I rightfully feel like a dumbass so I'm tucking tail and trying to diffuse the situation.
I am literally the "joke's on them I was only pretending" meme, and I'm really not proud of it.
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We both know the answer, but I hope they respond and show their whole ass. Fucking warmongering scum.
Ok so ukraine winnings off the table.
I guess in that case cede the territory Russia captured and stop sending thousands of conscripts to die for nothing.
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Is this a Chamberlain impression? You think Russia is going to stop? Putin is an imperialist megalomaniac who wants fealty and submission.
If Ukraine signs on the dotted line, Putin will take it as explicit approval of his imperialist expansion on behalf of the entire West. There might be months to a year of tenuous peace then he'll march onward until his puppet is sitting in Kyiv and Ukranians are speaking Russian.
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It's funny how appeasement is the word liberals drool over. It is their ONLY historical anecdote and used to defend opposing any movement towards peace, ag Korea. The reality is Chamberlain's big crime was no the act of appeasement, it was knowingly stringing along the French and Soviets only to bail officially when there was no means of changing plans for the USSR and Czechoslovakia.
Beyond that the comparison also doesn't work because peace talks had occurred multiple times without excluding relevant parties. Minsk was a thing that happened.
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It's just really useful. We want to do something. Remember the time we didn't do something?
You are still operating on the assumption that Russia can somehow win this war? Despite its best soldiers and equipment already being spent while the Ukies bathe in the latest NATO gear? Sure, they may be having trouble with their counteroffensive, but that don't mean that the Russians can mount one of their own. The best case scenario for Russia is a ceasefire and a North/South Korea situation, with a backwards, authoritarian North (Russia) and a prosperous, democratic South (Ukraine).
Democracy is when you have streets named after literal fascists leading to the sites of the Holocaust.
Also that equipment is not winning Ukraine any territory back. That's like saying the Soviets couldn't win WW2 in late 1944 because Germany was developing a jet fighter at that time.
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Remind me, how was the South doing when the DMZ was designated?
Yeah, it's so stupid to believe this, I mean, look at who's doing all the conscriptions. Oh. Fuck. Uh, okay, look who has doesn't have a functional air force and is chronically short on ammunition, as admitted by the actual president of the actual United States (who, I hope you agree, is not a puppet of Putin). Hm. Well, look at all the territory that Russia still has in Ukraine! They must be just down a few villages by now considering that Russia is completely out of missiles, is fighting with shovels, is out of artillery, has no ammo, their soldiers are completely demoralized and also all dead! Fuck. Shit.
Look, if Russia's army is so awful, so utterly and completely imcompetent, so out of ammunition, so demoralized, and Ukraine still can't make a sizable dent in their defences after two months, then holy shit, Ukraine's army must be fucking terrible. Like, holy shit it must be bad.
The people having lost are the people being dead, the families separated and people traumatized. Like in all wars. The victims are mostly the working class.
That said, there are plenty of ways to spin winning and losing for both Ukraine and Russia. Of course for NATO this war war somewhat good, but there can be a couple of things be found that are bad, will not focus on that though.
Having secured the Krim, having secured a Krim land bridge, having ensured a close alignment of Donbas and Luhansk, having secured control over the Sea of Azov and in addition relevant parts of the North Western section of the Black Sea (and with that ensured access to gas and other resources while denying it to Ukraine), having the river as border in the South between the occupied territories and Ukraine, with mined and defended territory near Donetsk Oblast reduced the open flank of Russia (and its Krim) somewhat. This means millions of people who are effectively living on territory controlled by Russia. This also means a propaganda victory for Putin and thus support from some circles of nationalist society in Russia (for which the education in military basics adds something, too).
Hard to call all those things failures. That said during a war of attrition and position war is slow till it isn't anymore. I am not on the side of Russia, but I can see how stuff could be spun.
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It's honestly really insulting how you just completely ignore entire paragraphs someone spent time writing for you after saying you were interested and willing to learn.
I am uneducated on this topic and also arguing in bad faith
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Whoa
Gotta admit I respect the honesty
props for being willing to admit this. it takes guts. now do the reading and educate yourself
we already knew that from the username
There is a Citations Needed episode about exactly this
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Oh, how am I just now finding out this podcast exists? Thank you sir.
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Damn this is like, triple-distilled Kremlin Copium Reserve right here. Putin is an entirely rational actor? Lmfao! Is that why he picked a fight with a country a quarter the size of his and got a black eye? Is that why he flip-flopped in the Budapest memorandum? Is that why he blew up Priggy and pals for everyone to see?
Also, what kinda American provocations are you talking about? Was it the billions in IMF money Russia got in the 90s? That was provocative for sure. Or is it when they sent a spy to infiltrate your ruling party? Oh wait, Butina was Russian, it was the other way around, nevermind.
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Remind me, where were Russian forces marching in February last year? It was some city... A capital even. Started with a K.
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I think it had more do to with 10,000 dead Russian soldiers
Yea it's deffinitly that and not the fact they had taken the territory they stated from the start they were trying to take.
also didn't it come out later that african states had gotten russia and ukraine to get peace agreements in place so russia withdrew to the single eastern front?
Yes the stunning military victory knows as "retreat from Kyiv"
As you say this I imagine you standing on an aircraft carrier with a big banner behind reading "mission accomplished"
That's fucking hilarious because Kyiv not falling in a week has been touted as a Ukrainian victory even though it was them who set that goal and them literally declaring victory while the russians actually accomplished all their stated goals.
Since your such a military genius it's weird how the concept of cutting supply lines to the territories you're trying to take is an unfamiliar concept. Obviously they weren't trying to stop supplies to the actual contested regions they were just yoloing a mission to a capital they never claimed as a goal for no apparent reason.
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Russia: currently holding all the territory they said they wanted to take before the invasion and for the last decade
Ukraine: conscripting people to throw at russian defenses resulting in tens of thousands of deaths and retaking zero ground, complaining that the counter offensive is failing because Russia is cheating by using anti tank mines to stop tanks
If this is copium it's some good shit
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Schroedinger's Russia: simultaneously on the brink of defeat and collapse, but also this close to taking over all of Europe if we dont send $80 billion more dollars to some nazis right now.
Like snap my fingers ideal? What @ZoomeristLeninist@hexbear.net said.
What’s actually possible as part of negotiations? This would be (an) ideal outcome to me (but is still never going to happen):
my general ideal framework for a potential peace agreement is obnoxiously long so I put it in this spoiler
1) Ukraine agrees to commit to purging their military and government of white supremacists (and Russia agrees to do the same! Although I think you’ll find that they wont have nearly the same kind of problem). This includes any official or officer who has said things like Russians being “Asian” or some other nazi dogwhistle bs like that. Oh and also anyone who has glorified Bandera in anyway, they’ve got to go too (he is seriously irredeemable, please look up the history of the OUN and all the truly horrible white supremacist shit they did)
2) Ukraine agrees to never attempt to join Nato again because of Russia’s valid security concerns. This is probably by far the most important measure, and it should be put into the agreement that any attempts to skirt around this will be met with military force.
3) After maybe a year to give everything time to settle down, all territory that Russia either fully or partially occupies is given a referendum on whether they want to be fully reintegrated into Ukraine, reintegrated but given autonomy, integrated into Russia but given autonomy, or fully integrated into Russia. As part of this Ukraine must also demilitarize to a certain extent so they don’t just start shelling any autonomous territories like they did before. Ukraine must also give up any claim to these territories that vote to integrate as part of Russia, including Crimea.
4) Russia agrees to help de-mine/de-bomb both Ukrainian territory and newly integrated Russian territory (NATO should also be a part of this particular part, but good luck getting them to actually help once the war is over)
5) Russia commits to a plan to help reunite families torn apart by the war, and both governments set up a plan to support war orphans so they don’t fall into human trafficking rings.
6) Russia helps Ukraine re-establish its peacetime agricultural production in return for certain economic trade agreements remaining favorable to Russia for a certain period of time.
7) Finally a joint commission to investigate war crimes committed by either of the 2 sides, and agreeing to abide by their findings.
(Final notes: As a part of #3 it will only be a ceasefire until certain things are completed, and would be broken by obvious signs of aggression etc. etc.)
I doubt any of this will actually happen because Ukraine’s government has been instructed by its western masters supplying it with all of its weaponry to not negotiate or else they will cut their weapon supply off, which will immediately weaken their position at any negotiating table with Russia.
an even longer obnoxiously long explanation of my position
These probably seems overly favorable to Russia, and they are favorable towards them, because they’re well positioned to win any war of attrition, so they’re in no hurry to give favorable terms to Ukraine, but I also laid out some propositions that would benefit Ukraine. Honestly, a few of my propositions may even be too favorable to Ukraine for what the Russian government would be willing to accept. Also, they help Ukrainian proles, not bourgeois really, so the Ukrainian government may not even like those propositions that are supposed to be favorable towards Ukraine! Still, this is roughly what I would hope to see coming out of a peace agreement between the two.
If you really can’t accept that these are the best terms Ukraine could get, I’ll just say they should have accepted the peace deal (and its much more favorable terms) a year ago before good ole Boris Johnson meddled and convinced them they could either win or get better terms later somehow. Every month that they wait their position gets weaker, and the terms will be more and more favorable to Russia. I would prefer that tens of thousands of more Ukrainians and Russians not die just for Russia to have better terms for Ukraine’s inevitable surrender, so ideally they should negotiate now, not then. The only way the tide of this war turns is if NATO actually gets directly involved, and I would really hope that we don’t risk nuclear annihilation over a war between two bourgeois-led states.
We could argue about the inevitability of Ukraine’s defeat, I guess, but I seriously doubt either of us are well educated on military affairs so that would be a pointless argument, I’m pretty much just having to go based off of what people I trust say in this field and do what little research I can to make sure they’re not just completely making something up.
My final statement is that I’ve seen convincing arguments that even if Zelensky tried to negotiate at this point, the fascists he’s surrounded himself with would just kill him and take power to keep the war going, so this is all could just be useless speculating anyways.
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Ah you’re too kind, I think I ramble a bit much when I try to write out effort posts which is why I used the spoilers to make it easier to ignore my rambling haha
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Ah thank you again then
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The new border between Russia and Ukraine will be defined by the crater caused by the impact of a giant meteor which gives both parties something more pressing to deal with.
Please, step away from the lathe
Hear me out, I'm going somewhere with this
Okay, but only because of The Crying of Lot 49
Ayy it's not Gravity's Rainbow for a change.
Not speaking for everyone here but an ideal outcome would be:
Further outcomes would be that Ukraine doesn't pay back the loans to the west because they simply can't afford to. I have no idea how they'll manage post war even if they win or lose. Worker rights in Ukraine have been demolished and the country has been sold to Blackrock and Co.. And with Ukraine sending their working age population to the meat grinder, the future becomes bleaker every day.
Thanks for your response. I don't entirely agree with all of your points but I can respect the thought you've put into the situation.
No problem. It's Always nice to have someone willing to participate in open minded discussion.
Hey just a heads up that lib you complimented on having a nice discussion just told me I was huffing copium for saying Russia was winning because they've taken and held all the territory they stated they wanted to before the war
The wishes of the people of Crimea and the Donbass are respected and neo-nazism in Ukraine is destroyed, that would be a good start
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Nobody living in Crimea wants it to be part of Ukraine
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