If you think the earth is dying because poor people are having too many babies, that's about three logical steps away from ecofascism.
End of thread.
There is no such thing as overpopulation if we can simply utilize renewable resources. There are no hard caps
There are no hard caps
Are the resources of this planet finite, or infinite?
There are a million ways to solve the environmental crisis that aren't ecofascism, but everyone consumes some amount of resources, which means no matter how efficiently everyone lives we will at some point hit environmental limits.
They are finite but renewable resources are not. What is finite is space but that’s effectively infinite
We're so far away from everyone being able to live on 100% renewable resources that it's out of the question in the short term. And while space is effectively infinite, developing that space to be human-habitable uses additional resources and creates additional environmental strains.
We are that far away living under capitalism, yes. You are certainly correct.
But this isn’t necessarily only about the here and now, but about looking forward into what a world which supports a fully socialist society would look like and in that society there can not (and will not) be overpopulation which is why talking about it as a here and now issue is also not helpful, seeing as we aren’t overpopulated but over-consuming
As we learned with climate change, the best time to take action on global issues is decades before they're "here and now" problems. If this is even on the horizon we should be talking about it as if it should be addressed immediately, because waiting until we need drastic action right away (i.e., where we are now with climate change) risks cataclysm.
Say you had a magic wand that could reshape the world's economy, resource distribution, political structure, etc. You eliminate excessive consumption and give everyone on the planet at least a decent standard of living. Say the planet's carrying capacity at this level of per capita consumption is 16 billion -- just over double the current global population. Are we better off talking about how to humanely stay within that environmental limit today, or in 50 years when the population is 15 billion?
We can talk about it all we want now, but we can not do anything about it and capitalist society never will. The question is a great hypothetical but irrelevant in application because no pattern of consumption will remain intact
:geordi-no: poors have too many babies
:geordi-yes: rich have too many monies
Edit: We need to have a site wide Marxist geography study session with the amount of reactionary and outright fash opinions there are in this thread. If you are one of those opinions, I am absolutely not shitting on you AT ALL. There’s a reason Marxist geography isn’t widely taught unless you seek it out. It is an immensely powerful tool to apply dialectical materialism to issues that can easily turn people reactionary. Any other mods reading this we desperately need to figure out a weekend pinned post project for the topic or something. In the meantime please do not hesitate to ask me any questions and I’ll answer to the best of my ability.
Hello chapo dot chatters it is time for me to put on my geologist and climatologist hats to tell you that ANY freaking out about population now or in the foreseeable future needs to stop now, and here’s why:
You are thinking of earth and it’s resources in terms of what we currently produce and consume as a global capitalist society. It is our job as socialists to CHANGE THIS. Your doomposting about population vs consumption is inherently reactionary. There is technically a cap on earth’s carrying capacity for humans, but that cap is in the dozens of billions. A socialist society can not exist without sustainability as one of its main tenets for a plethora of reasons, but most importantly the equity in a universally habitable planet. High qualities of life under capitalism will inherently lead to environmental degradation and scarcity. We already live on a potentially post-scarcity planet in terms of necessities, and likely by a significant amount. When talking about achieving a certain quality of life under socialism, we have no frame of reference for the amount of production and renewable resources it would take because our only understanding of production and consumption in this world is influenced by and for capitalism.
Capitalism’s allocation of these resources and ability to fetishize commodities is what is destroying our planet, NOT growing population. There are immediate short term issues we face in regards to climate change that capitalism simply can not address, but very few demographics are significantly contributing to the climate crisis and all who do have massively disproportional numbers of people vs contribution to the crisis. This is in NO WAY A POPULATION ISSUE.
On a positive note, capitalism is becoming too heavy a burden for capitalism to continue supporting, because as quality of life increases, population growth tends to halt. As capitalism relies on infinite need for extraction and exploitation it will run into a wall as these societies no longer have growing numbers of people to exploit (which very much mirrors what produced the collapse of feudalism) and this will cause massive social and economic upheaval.
This is, in my opinion, the fruition of Marx’s prediction on capitalism outgrowing itself and collapsing. The pieces have been in place for a long time. Bourgeois democracies and corporations are already trying to fight this by desperately filling the holes in their modes of production with cheap labor from the global south or by directly importing literal human beings from the global south to fill the holes in their society and economic system.
Holy fuck thank you for this. Thought I was gonna go bald tearing my hair out from all the absolute dumpster fire takes in this thread. I'm just gonna expand on it a bit from a STEM angle (yes I know, how awful) to show just how ridiculous the overpopulation arguments.
There is technically a cap on earth’s carrying capacity for humans, but that cap is in the dozens of billions.
Technically, the only real fundamental limit is waste heat. These caps are in the trillions (if not higher), yes just with the resources of the Earth, no asteroid mining or whatnot. Doesn't even require super magic tech, it can be done with things we know for sure that we will be able to do in the very near future--assuming we don't kill each other of course. Every limit you can think of can be circumvented with enough energy, which if you have fusion (no, the jokes of it being always 20 years away aren't funny--funding was cut when they realized it was actually possible and would decimate the fossil fuel market) is only a problem of scale not some fundamental limit except waste heat of course.
Capitalism’s allocation of these resources and ability to fetishize commodities is what is destroying our planet
The tragic thing is that most of the technology/solutions for climate change and environmental degradation already exist or just need to be developed to scale. But because they aren't 'profitable' they aren't utilized. Hell even most fossil fuel emissions could be drastically reduced (on the order of 90%) if we mandated refineries and power plants actually deal with their waste exhaust instead of just dumping it into the atmosphere but again this isn't maximally profitable so its not done to any real meaningful extent in the grand scheme of things.
You sound like me as a kid lol
But here’s a good video in relation to this discussion right now, and I’ll be writing a more in depth post some time this week for a bigger discussion about it. Marxist Geography really is the coolest field of study so many have never heard of
Yes but all consumption we currently understand is based on a society which has no major renewable resource use and development.
In an equitable socialist society not only will this be all renewable, but consumption in general will be completely overhauled since capitalism currently has vested interest in shaping our (over)consumption.
Which is why eco-fascism is so dangerous. It does address the problems but without the Marxist analysis of the problem and synthesis of the solution it will simply never be capable of fixing the actual underlying issue. Talking in terms of “if everybody lived with an American quality of life...” is a useful thought experiment to gauge our current overconsumption, but irrelevant when gauging quality of life under a socialist system in which modes of production, labor, distribution, etc are completely different despite maybe having a similar quality of life
You are thinking of earth and it’s resources in terms of what we currently produce and consume as a global capitalist society. It is our job as socialists to CHANGE THIS. Your doomposting about population vs consumption is inherently reactionary.
I'm sorry, this is a very condescending way to speak to leftists. Why do you think that people who post here of all places are unable to imagine a world, or think about a problem, outside of capitalism? It's just a disrespectful way to treat people you disagree with instead of just accepting they disagree with you about the severity of the problem and debating the details.
Under any system including luxury space communism there is going to be a level of carbon emission related to providing people with a particular standard of living. We all agree here that no person anywhere on Earth is more entitled to that standard of living than anyone else. So in our drive to reach that global standard, there must be discussion about how that standard produces waste and feeds on extraction.
Obviously there is waste under a capitalist framework where my pants are made from cotton grown in Madagascar, shipped to the Philippines for processing then to Vietnam for assembly then shipped to me, but you cannot just hand-wave away the idea that a) there are going to be significant emissions unrelated to waste and b) socialism itself doesn't guarantee the elimination of waste.
So accepting that none of these values will be fixed (as new technologies increase efficiencies, deserts can be reclaimed, rates of consumption may increase or decrease) there still needs to be a frank discussion about the population rate that can be sustained at a certain level of standard of living, and those two values will need to be in negotiation with each other.
I’m not trying to be condescending which is why I even added the part about asking any questions, etc.
You’re absolutely correct that socialism does not guarantee the elimination of waste and I 100% agree, but what socialism DOES that capitalism does not is incentivize the collective care of our environment as degradation of the environment is inherently the degradation of our collective. Under capitalism, addressing the climate crisis is not profitable and therefore not even a facet of where labor is directed. Under socialism this would be vastly different as the maintenance of our planet is intrinsically tied to the maintenance of an equitable society and thus socialism itself.
but what socialism DOES that capitalism does not is incentivize the collective care of our environment as degradation of the environment is inherently the degradation of our collective. Under capitalism, addressing the climate crisis is not profitable and therefore not even a facet of where labor is directed. Under socialism this would be vastly different as the maintenance of our planet is intrinsically tied to the maintenance of an equitable society and thus socialism itself.
My point is this is obvious to everybody who posts here, it's not some amazing revelation of privileged knowledge only you have. Nobody here supports capitalism, everybody here is aware that its fundamental construction leads to waste and eventual catastrophe.
So gee maybe if people here think overpopulation is a problem they're already factored in the waste inherent in capitalism. Maybe calling us reactionaries instead of listening and discussing where we disagree isn't the most productive approach.
I openly said I’m not shitting on people for having these opinions and it’s not their fault, meaning they aren’t reactionaries. It is, however, a reactionary opinion to have sadly which is why I addressed it and wrote a big long post about it
Sorry, you don't get to decide if my thoughts are reactionary or not I'm afraid no matter what community you mod lol.
Honestly you sound like a lib who accuses leftists of being right wing because they criticize Biden. Like they literally can't conceive of the possibility that there could be a legitimate reason to criticize him because there are bad people who do that for dumb reasons, so whoever does it is bad.
I’m not saying it because I mod a community, I’m saying it because Marx and Engels both said Malthusian theory was wrong and based in reaction
Anything by David Harvey is solid and not too dense of material that you need to sit down with a highlighter and whiskey to understand. Anywhere is a great jumping off point, but here is my personal favorite.
He also looks a bit like Marx in this video
Liberals are starting to get pretty awful about it. European countries especially have quite a growing interest in making sure sub-Saharan African people have fewer babies through "access to contraception." People can't deny that contraceptive access is important for women's rights and financial autonomy, but the justifications European countries come up for having such a policy is based on the projected environmental costs of developing Africa for propping up a growing African population. The unstated motive is how frightened much of the West is of having an Africa that isn't specifically developed for extraction.
The left really needs to leave this knee-jerk reaction to this topic behind. Malthus is a strawman, and overpopulation is a real thing that we need to talk about coherently.
There is no number that is the maximum number of people the Earth can hold, but there is if you want a minimum level of consumption for all people to enjoy. Population and consumption levels are two sides of the same coin, and talking about one without both is like saying your car is fast because it can go from 0 to 60mph without talking about how long it needs to do that.
Talking about this issue honestly has nothing to do with poor-shaming or white-washing the role capitalism plays in sustaining poverty.
So yeah if we want on earth to live with a similar consumption level to Bangladesh, fine the Earth can probably sustain life 20 billion people (I haven't looked at recent numbers so this is ballpark). However, if you, like me, want to raise everyone in the world not just out of poverty but to a stage where everyone can have a dignified existence and live a full and complicated life that is necessarily going to result in a major strain on the Earth. For context (and again, it's been a few years since I looked at the numbers in detail) if you want people to all consume like the US I think the estimate is around 1 billion people, like France I think it's around 4 billion, etc.
And saying this doesn't mean apologizing for the inefficiencies inherent in a capitalist system either, but we need to be able to talk about what level of consumption we want people to be able to enjoy, what goal populations are that are commensurate with that goal and what policies can be embraced to encourage that.
If you can't listen to anyone talk about this issue and your start foaming at the mouth and calling them a fascist, that is seriously counter-productive to a major issue that will potentially destroy the Earth.
if you're talking about overpopulation without talking about the inefficiencies and epic waste of capitalism and statism, it's just genocide snuff. full stop. and i never hear capitalist waste as a factor when libs bring this up, so its just their genocide porn. which is sick. because libs are sick.
and honestly, you need to talk about efficiency before you talk about genocide. because it's a bigger factor and can't be fixed with mass murder. at least not with JUST mass murder.
Lol nobody is talking about genocide, you just put that on people who act like overpopulation is a serious issue worth discussing.
I'm sure you can find a few weirdos on Twitter but basically ecofascism doesn't really exist, it's a fiction that anarchists like to obsess over instead of the actual problem of an impending climate apocalypse.
basically ecofascism doesn’t really exist
Yes and no. It doesn't have any major following now, but it's easily foreseeable. Talking about it is as realistic as talking about the possibility of getting a competent post-Trump fascist in 2024 or 2028.
If you look in this thread can you point to one person who is referring to ecofascism in a way that refers to some theoretical future movement?
I see people talking about it with the same certainty they talk about getting a competent fascist in the near future, and I think both discussions are reasonable. The dangerous nature of fascism means you can't wait until it's kicking down your door to take it seriously.
This is always what Libs do. It’s not fascism until the fascists win. Every. Single. Time.
How does ecofascism even work? Like would wealthy nations bomb poor nations or use structural adjustments so they stop developing? Because that is already happening.
This is why I said Malthus is a Strawman. Maybe there are some 17-year-olds on Twitter who just learned about Malthus but today basically nobody concerned about overpopulation is concerned because of starvation. It's a concern because if we are to raise the standard of living of billions of people (which we should) we are going to necessarily increase their carbon emissions.
To answer your question the numbers come from average climate emissions relative to the ability of the Earth to act as a carbon sink.
We have NO RIGHT to kill any of these people already alive
What in the world? See this is the problem. Basically nobody except for some weird freaks think the overpopulation issue should be solved by killing people. How you got there from what I typed says a lot about your ability to discuss this rationally.
Cool, nbd. I will say though, if it really is disturbingly common to think overpopulation should be solved by killing people on the global south why have I literally never heard a single person say it, in person or in media?
Like I'm sure if I went looking on the internet for communities with heinous views I could dig up an example, but literally the only time I hear that idea is when some anarchist is going on about how ecofascism is some sort of serious problem.
Again, literally never heard anybody say that ever. Are you sure you're not projecting that onto them in the same way you did me, since this topic is triggering to you?
Basically all the libs I see talking about this do so with the lens of empowering and educating women, increasing access to contraceptives, and raising the standard of living (which is correlated with a reduction in birth rates) etc. I've never seen a single person seriously advocate solving this with murder.
My understanding has always been that we overproduce a ridiculous amount of food
We manage to do that only thanks to fossil fuels and mass fertilizer production - both of which we need to stop. Without fossil fuels, without huge factories filled with Haber–Bosch reaction chambers, right now we can't produce enough food. Perhaps alternative approaches such as labour intensive, decentralized mass permaculture could work though (but definitely not on a planet where warming exceeds, say, 3C and possibly less - and that's a level of warming we will reach).
Plus, fossil fuel use is probably going to continue for a while “after socialism” anyway
It cannot. All fossil fuel use should have been stopped years ago.
But moreover, nowhere in my comment did I suggest killing anyone, and I even suggested possible avenues for solution.
My own mindset though is that based on climate publications these past few years we're completely fucked anyway; have kids, don't, do what makes you happy at this point. Maybe they'll even survive to live in the apocalyptic hell-hole that will precede human extinction, and find a measure of happiness there. Enjoy the time you have left in any case.
No worries, I understand completely - like 90% of the time when someone talks about overpopulation in that context they're a fucking ecofascist, so it's easy enough to jump on that conclusion.
Not having children is equivalent to killing people?
this is like the one topic where people here are okay with completely misrepresenting what the other side says. Like of course overpopulation is in many cases a supposedly empirical justification for ecofascism. And yes overconsumption and waste are def larger problems in terms of priority. But it's wild how he thought he had to state "But killing huge swathes of people for the sake of the planet should be off the table pretty much no matter what." Like holy shit what?? No duh sherlock. P sure not promoting indiscriminate killings is like the bare minimum of being a leftist. Idk very uncharitable to say the least
you are inevitably, and invariably talking about not just how many people, but what kinds of people even have a right to exist, and to reproduce themselves in the first place.
This isn't true at all. That's an idea you're irrationally smuggling into what could be a serious discussion. What you're describing is eugenics, which is a completely different topic that is basically universally reviled.
how you would practically implement a top-down population control program that isn’t ultimately gonna try to sort people into who is & isn’t allowed to reproduce, or select for “the best/most fit/most healthy children” to be born?
Of course, that is very simple, (ignoring that you also smuggled in a top-down method which nobody mentioned). Proven positive interventions to reduce birth rates include:
•raising standard of living
•increasing access to birth control
•education of girls and women
•increasing wealth
•empowerment of women
There are other potential interventions that haven't really been tried because people insist on not talking about population - like honestly even a public education campaign about how maybe reducing the number of children could help the environment would probably shift some numbers as well. Honestly because we've made this such a hotbutton issue the actual environmental cost of a new human is basically never talked about and a lot of people have no idea that it could be an issue.
And look, the idea of genetically testing fetuses for genetic traits that might make a new human less happy is a touchy, controversial and complex topic that is obviously something close to your heart and I don't haven't thought much about and don't have much to contribute. I will, however, posit that it is completely unrelated to the topic of overpopulation.
Can you actually give me a real explanation as to how you would practically implement a top-down population control program that isn’t ultimately gonna try to sort people into who is & isn’t allowed to reproduce, or select for “the best/most fit/most healthy children” to be born?
India, Thailand, Vietnam, Sri Lanka etc etc. Population control can be as simple as giving women contraception, education etc. That's what these countries did.
Covering every acre of the earth with soy farms to own the libs
I do believe in over population, but not in the Malthusian sense
it's not something that can be blamed on the poor, because it's a geometric problem of consumption*population, and the poor consume relatively very little
a subsistence farmer having eight kids in Benin is doing far less damage than a middle class suburbanite having a single child in the US, environmentally speaking
a subsistence farmer having eight kids in Benin is doing far less damage than a middle class suburbanite having a single child in the US, environmentally speaking
The delta is even more mind boggling than that; did a quick calculation once and based on per-capita emissions, for example, an Ethiopian woman could have 150 kids and still not reach the same emissions induced by one US kid.
no, it's consumptionXpopulationXwaste.
there are three factors there, not two. and one of them is very very very large in the present system.
the fact that it's never mentioned tells me this isn't what these "people" chanting "overpopulation" are concerned about, and if they want to lower the population, they can put their mouth where they say it is and eat a gun. I might even believe they believed what they said if they did. but they won't. because it's all about the exploitation. the core of waste.
they're not afraid of overpopulation; they're afraid of equality. they're afraid of fairness. they're afraid of treating the global south like human fucking beings.
fuck them. and fuck their bullshit arguments. you wanna save the literal world? destroy capitalism. destroy states. destroy inequality that makes us squander our labor and resources on not being one of the "have nots" and crab bucketing humanity just so we can be on top of the pile. if that isn't your first step, you might consider that you're a genocidal classist racist piece of shit. if that isn't your first step and you reproduced, consider that you're a genocidal racist classist piece of shit who should fucking kill yourself; both to compensate for the stress your kid puts on the system, and to avoid making your kid racist classist genocidal piece of shit like you.
You are fighting against imaginary enemies. Ecofascists exist, but their views are not being represented here. What people are saying is that improving standards of living help to reduce population growth, and that is a good thing. That is a universally accepted fact.
i don't think the people im ranting about are here. but im aware they exist. I hate them so very much.
Anti-natalism is dumb. You I can understand being the opposite of whatever the fuck is going on with Matt Yglesias, but stripping away the right to reproduction is not a solution to anything. Material conditions improving tend to lead to a stability in population growth (~2 kids/couple). Caring about population at all is baby brained nonsense.
If you don't want to have kids, whatever. That's your choice I guess, no one can force you to fuck. Just stop trying to say it's a solution to anything and pretending that it's not just a fetish.
no one can force you to fuck
stop pretending it's not just a fetish
Literally stop obsessing over other peoples' parenthood choices. I don't want to have kids. Not as some solution to anything, not as some weird fetish, but just because I do not want kids, and I cannot afford them anyway.
Not everyone has to want to reproduce, weirdo.
That's literally what I was saying. If you're doing it as a personal choice whatever, but I see plenty of anti-natalists out there saying banning children is some sort of solution to the world's problems. It's not and never will be.
I'd agree with anti-natalists if their entire argument was "sometimes procreation creates Matt Yglesias, therefore, no one should procreate" lol
There's more robust philosophical arguments against having children than economic/population considerations, and those arguments don't come down to mere matters of taste/personal decisions. Having children is inherintly a decision that effects other people one way or another, with the children themselves being the most obvious example.
I don't think you should generalize so much in this regard, it mostly just comes off as uninformed.
Edit: I mean, seriously, you can start with something as simple as the Wikipedia article and see that environmental arguments constitute a very small minority of the various positions.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism
So is the robust philosophical consideration that the kid has to exist and existence is inherently bad?
That's one approach. Consent (or the impossibility thereof) is another. Some argue that existence is pretty nice actually, but boy howdy does death and existential angst suck, and seeing as we can't get around that it sure seems wrong to force someone to experience it.
There's all kinds of angles, and it's a very nuanced and intricate argument. Your reductive summation is, at best, offensive to people who have put a lot of thought into the matter and come out on the other side. At worst, it will actively impede yours and other people's ability to make sense of the things. I'm actually agnostic on the matter, seeing as there ARE really good arguments on both sides.
I don't know, when I read those arguments, I just see the inverse of the anti-abortion arguments that Catholics make. I think focusing on the fact that existence sucks is wrong when you should be focusing on making existence better. When you take the anti-natalist arguments to their logical conclusion, it's just mass extermination of sentient life to prevent procreation. Which they literally mention in the wiki.
I just see the whole endeavor as pointless. It needs to be coupled with massive systemic change and a transition to a communist mode of production, but doing that would inherently change the nature of existence and alleviate much of the suffering that currently goes hand in hand with existence under exploitative hierarchies/capitalist modes of production.
So your disagree with where they place their emphasis. Fine. But I bet they'd have reasons for their emphasis, too. Reasons that they likely make the case for in one of the many books they've written. I doubt they expect you to accept it at face value, especially such a radically heterodox attitude to the norm.
As for your suggestion, communism would certainly eliminate much of the suffering, but whether or not that can tip the scales of utilitarian calculus is a question worth asking. Even if it did, that does not mitigate the reality of death. Realistically can't change that one in time for it to be relevant to our decisions now. Procreation brings another sentient, conscious, and autonomous being into the world (without their consent!) and subjects them to unavoidable existential terror. You're absolutely right, those of us who are here SHOULD do everything we can to lighten that burden and make life better - but we didn't get here via magic. The decision to procreate precedes a decision as to what to do about existence. Glossing over the first one would be a grave mistake if our aim is to behave ethically.
I reiterate here - I'm not actually an anti-natalist myself. I just think they've made valuable contributions to the discussion and you're being incredibly uncharitable to the people you disagree with.
Well, yeah. Their problem is where they place the emphasis because they assume that the current mode of production is some natural unchangeable thing. If they didn't, they'd be communists. Anti-natalism is the ultimate form of doomerism.
Hmm, gonna hard disagree with you here and say you're continuing to be overly reductive. Many of these arguments have nothing to do with what means of production we're using and would stand even under communism. Might serve you well to actually engage with some of the literature instead of assuming so much or trying to import a framework from something you understand better. I'm gonna disengage for now, I feel the goal posts sliding away, and I've said my piece.
I don't see how I'm sliding the goalposts. It's a pretty simple argument they have. One that presumes a pessimistic model of existence which is not by any means a given.
"Just stop trying to say it’s a solution to anything and pretending that it’s not just a fetish."
That's where things started. My initial addition was to say it's a hell of a lot more than that. Now you're arguing against anti-natalism based on what you're assuming the other side assumes. Having actually read the literature, this is a pretty absurd conversation. Either develop your understanding or don't my guy - but if you're going to come in here with big dunning-Kruger energy you're gonna get pushback lmao.
Don't know how often you've engaged with anti-natalists online, but there's a large overlap between them and stupidpol/malthusians. To most anti-natalists I've had the misfortune of interacting with it is nothing more than a fetish.
I don't think the ethical calculus is inherently worthless, but it's not something I'd ever base my view of reality on. It contradicts too much with everything else I believe and I don't think the presumption of existence being inherently bad is necessarily a productive stance to have.
This is why I said it's fine for individuals to have this view, but any sort of implementation of anti-natalism by a state/ would be indistinguishable from malthusianism. I also don't think it's something that will ever take hold of the collective conscious because it's inherently defeatist and requires a complete and total lack of optimism. Which as we can see, even in the most brutally repressive hierarchy's doesn't happen.
So I guess I just don't see the point of it as a philosophy worth fighting for.
It's a thorny issue. Unfortunately, many people approach overpopulation via fascist ideology. There is such a thing as carry-capacity that will limit population growth in the future. We don't every want to get close to this limit because it will inevitable result in really really bad resource and land conflicts that will balance out overpopulation. However, a capitalist system will always try to approach this limit as it requires constant growth. Anyway, regardless of who you are, you shouldn't have more than 2 kids.
Reactionary and shitty fucking take, holy shit. This thread is a disaster.
Carry-capacity is a fascist talking point, not a real issue we are facing right now. Telling other people the right amount of kids to have or not have is extremely fucking reactionary and is the exact same shit people say when blaming the global south for their poverty because they have too many kids.
Is not a debate. Nor is it about carrying capacity.
Most of the places I've been to are just trashed. Strip mined, rivers poisoned, trash Deep into forests with garbage everywhere, reefs stripped bare of fish. It's like that in the USA everywhere and every other country I've been to. Humans do this everywhere.
The idea that the planet can handle more people or that people can have as many kids as they want is not living in any type of reality. And with the way the world works right now it's a pro capitalist argument.
Look at that you were able to make an (fascist) argument without knowing where I visited. Good job.
Blaming the humans instead of the society is pro capitalist. It’s just a human problem sounds exactly like what evolutionary psychologists would say.
Humans have been trashing the world long before capitalism was a thing. We are most likely the number one cause of mass exiticttions and this goes back to before economies or civilization was a thing. If you want kids or have them cool.i want kids but I don't feel right bringing them into a world that is going to get worse and worse.
What kind of society did we live in before capitalism?
Wouldn’t having kids make want to work even harder to make sure it’s a better world? If you want kids you should have them and not create fantasies about what the future may or may not be. Because you literally have 0 idea.
Telling other people the right amount of kids to have or not have is extremely fucking reactionary
Who made you the chairman of leftist thought?
Nothing about the concept of carrying capacity is inherently fascist. Carrying capacity is just putting a number on the concept of "infinite growth cannot occur in a finite system." If an ecologist is trying to calculate the number of horses that can live on an island long-term, for instance, nothing about that project is fascist.
At least on this matter, the fascism crops up in the proposed solutions. "We should cull people in the global south and keep the remainder in perpetual poverty" is a fascist solution. "We should improve the material conditions of the global south and guarantee women economic and political rights" is a socialist one.
Carrying capacity is a scientific concept. It is not a hard limit, but it actually exists. And it's not reactionary to tell people to have less kids. China's one child policy was massively beneficial for them, their population would have benn 500 million higher without it. Do you think it's reactionary when South Asian and African countries encourage family planning on their accord? Rapid population growth, in absense of sufficient economic growth, is abolutely a cause of poverty. That's the main fucking reason why countries practice family planning. The solution is good governance, family planning, women's rights etc. Just because fascists say poor people should be killed doesnt mean overpopulation isnt a problem. Fascists always do this shit where they take legitimate problems and prescribe psychotic solutions. The correct response is to respond with the correct solutions, not to deny the problem altogether.
There are no countries which will have high population growth with adequate equality and access. Like literally all countries on the planet have experienced decline in population growth with like at most 5 or 6 exceptions.
This is a shitty and unproductive response to a thoughtful comment. As someone else said in this thread, leftists for some reason think it's OK to totally misrepresent what someone's saying on this topic if it isn't "infinite population growth is possible on a finite planet."
Is this the part where you stick your fingers in your ears and go "nanananana"
Malthusianism is a basic scientific reality and is why evolution by natural selection happens in the first place
No it's not. In literally no field is malthusianism remotely taken seriously.
The most basic realities of evolution by natural selection are malthusian in the sense that leftists are referring to it here:
No they are not. You have no fucking clue what malthusian is or means. You are literally not grasping the conversation actually being had.
That there is a carrying capacity and an exponential rate of population increase and that these eventually butt heads. Both of these are dynamic, but their fundamental properties of increase (if carrying capacity even does increase at a given time) makes their meeting inevitable.
Skipping over the very important part there of the social system by which we produce and then distribute that produce and the means by which the products are made both of which are significant factors in the carrying capacity of a given system as they relate to the efficiency by which parts of the system are transformed into means for others to live.
This also applies to the entire field of ecology. When humans clear-cut a forest, they have reduced its marginal carrying capacity massively and the ecosystem is massively disrupted - through death. We could point out that rewilding will restore the carrying capacity, but it doesn’t change the fact that a given amount of the previous population, already at or near carrying capacity, will now die.
That's not what malthusian or mathulsianism is. You are substituting a specific discussion on the means by which we produce how we live and the how the results are distributed for a much more general topic about total abstract carrying capacity (which is also variable according to both those factors I just mentioned).
The real battle is with context and marginal action. The fact that these concepts validly undergird entire fields of biology does not mean you can draw simplistic, dehumanizing conclusions about current circumstances.
The real battle is a specific social system which arranges society in such a fashion that it obscures our relationship to nature, encourages means of producing and distributing goods that are inefficient and whose benefits are most significantly accrued to a small group who burn and waste significantly more than most of the population.
Yes, they are, and I explained why here and elsewhere.
No, you reduced malthusianism to a banal statement about total carrying capacity. That's not malthusianism.
Overall, you’re missing opportunities to provide displacing knowledge. If these basic underpinnings of biology aren’t malthusian and I’ve stated why they are, what’s wrong with my narrative? If I’m not discussing “malthusian” like leftists are, then in what sense are leftists (unlike all of the ones I see here) talking about? What is “the conversation” that I’m missing?
Jerkoff motion
Yes, it is. It’s how malthusian thought entered and remained in biological sciences and it’s how leftists here keep referring to it in incredibly simplistic ways
No.
Yes, it is. It’s how malthusian thought entered and remained in biological sciences and it’s how leftists here keep referring to it in incredibly simplistic ways. I see no teardowns of eco-fascists in this thread, just dismissals of the concept that population growth matters and focusing exclusively on the fact that we can increase carrying capacity through changes in consumption and the organization of production - what amounts to a statement that carrying capacity could be higher so we don’t need to worry about it re: population.
Because it's the correct take. Malthus was wrong on population growth. Fundamentally wrong. Populations stabilise as their material conditions improve. A number of countries now have declining populations. Even as populations declined, poverty rates stayed the same or got worse. Malthus' claim was that poverty as it already existed was an outcome of population growth, which was and remains wrong. He displaced understanding the social system and how it produces poverty by claiming it as a natural outcome of factors not related to how society was organised. You're attempting to do the same in fixating the discussion on population growth. Even worse when population growth i.e. having large numbers of children is in fact an outcome of poverty. Reducing poverty reduces the tendency for population growth.
I don’t understand how I can be substituting that discussion when I’m making a top-level comment responding to several narratives being used in this thread. Maybe that “specific discussion” is just the one that you’d rather be having?
You didn't respond to anything. You did a "well ackshually" and reduced malthusianism to something it isn't. And are now denying you did that.
No. Malthusianism was never just "total carrying capacity exists". You are and remain wrong. The answer to population increase is getting rid of the causes of poverty. Malthus was wrong on practically everything.
Edit:
One reason for the hatred that Cobbett and working class radicals directed against Malthus had to do with the fact that Malthus’ influence was so pervasive that it was not simply confined to middle-class reformers like John Stuart Mill, but even extended into the ranks of working-class thinkers and activists such as Francis Place. For Place, who adopted the Malthusian wages fund theory, birth control became a kind of substitute for class organization—though this was conceived by Place as being not in the interests of capital, but, in his misguided way, in the interests of the working class. The Malthusian ideology thus served from the first to disorganize the working-class opposition to capital.
It was because of this ideological service for the prevailing interests that, as Schumpeter said, “the teaching of Malthus’ Essay became firmly entrenched in the system of economic orthodoxy of the time in spite of the fact that it should have been, and in a sense was, recognized as fundamentally untenable or worthless by 1803 and that further reasons for so considering it were speedily forthcoming.” With the acknowledgement of moral restraint as a factor Malthus did not so much improve his theory, as Schumpeter further noted, as carry out an “orderly retreat with the artillery lost.”
More and more it was recognized that, as Marx stated, “overpopulation is…a historically determined relation, in no way determined by abstract numbers or by the absolute limit of the productivity of the necessaries of life, but by the limits posited rather by specific conditions of production…. How small do the numbers which meant overpopulation for the Athenians appear to us!” For Marx, it was “the historic laws of the movement of population, which are indeed the history of the nature of humanity, the natural laws, but natural laws of humanity only at a specific historic development” which were relevant. In contrast, “Malthusian man, abstracted from historically determined man, exists only in his brain.” As Paul Burkett has shown, Marx’s own political-economic analysis was to point to an inverse relation between workers’ wages and living conditions, on the one hand, and population growth, on the other—underscoring the kinds of relations that are now associated with demographic transition theory.
[...]
Darwin’s claim to have derived inspiration from Malthus’ Essay on Population in developing the crucial notion of the “struggle for existence,” which was to underlie his theory of natural selection, was not missed by contemporary social theorists. For Marx it was significant that Darwin had himself (unknowingly) refuted Malthus by means of natural history. Thus in Theories of Surplus Value Marx wrote: “In his splendid work, Darwin did not realise that by discovering the ‘geometrical’ progression in the animal and plant kingdom, he overthrew Malthus’s theory. Malthus’s theory is based on the fact that he set Wallace’s geometrical progression of man against the chimerical ‘arithmetical’ progression of animals and plants.” A year later Marx wrote in a letter to Engels:
As regards Darwin, whom I have looked at again, it amuses me that he says he applies the “Malthusian” theory also to plants and animals, as if Malthus’s whole point did not consist in the fact that his theory is applied not to plants and animals but only to human beings—in geometrical progression—as opposed to plants and animals. It is remarkable that Darwin recognises among brutes and plants his English society with its division of labour, competition, opening up of new markets, “inventions” and Malthusian “struggle for existence.” It is Hobbes’ bellum omnium contra omnes.
Marx himself did not dispute the general accuracy of Darwin’s theory of natural selection, but clearly relished the irony of Darwin’s discovery of bourgeois society “among brutes and plants.” What was illegitimate from a Marxist standpoint was the attempt, as Engels wrote in the Dialectics of Nature, “to transfer these theories back again from natural history to the history of society…as eternal natural laws of society.”
This, however, is exactly what happened with the advent of the broad group of eclectic “theories” that we commonly classify as “social Darwinist”—but which had little in fact to do with Darwinism. These theories drew directly on Malthus, Harriet Martineau, Herbert Spencer, and various nineteenth-century racist thinkers (whose views were anathemas to Darwinism properly understood). In the United States the leading academic social Darwinist was William Graham Sumner who argued that, “The millionaires are a product of natural selection.” This was simply Malthus, refurbished with the help of the Darwinian-Spencerian lexicon, and used to justify race and class inequality. Needless to say, this view was extremely attractive to the likes of such robber barons as John D. Rockefeller, James J. Hill and Andrew Carnegie. Rockefeller told a Sunday school class that “the growth of a large business is merely a survival of the fittest…merely the working out of a law of nature and a law of God.” Internationally social Darwinism was used to justify the imperialist policy of mass violence and annihilation succinctly summed by Kurtz in Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness—“exterminate all the brutes.”3 This resurrection of Malthus as an ecologist was an attempt to give ecology a conservative, pro-capitalist rather than revolutionary character, and required that Malthus’ actual argument be ignored. This was the same Malthus who had made a point of emphasizing that his argument did not have to do with the eventual overstocking of the earth with inhabitants but rather with the constant pressure of population on food supply (true throughout history); who had avoided the term “overpopulation” which made no sense within his strict equilibrium model; who was adamantly opposed to the use of contraceptives; who was the principal advocate within classical economics of the idea that the earth or soil was a “gift of nature to man” who in contrast to James Anderson in his own day had made no mention of the degradation of the soil; who subscribed to the view (enunciated by David Ricardo) that the powers of the soil were “indestructible” and who said that the peasantry should be “swept from the soil.” In spite (or in ignorance) of all of this Malthus was gradually converted, in neo-Malthusian thought, into an “ecological” thinker—the fountainhead of all wisdom in relation to the earth.
[...]
Malthus, we are frequently told, emphasized the scarcity of resources on earth and the limitations of human carrying capacity throughout his argument. Yet this flies in the face of the arguments of the real Malthus who wrote in his Essay on Population that “raw materials” in contrast to food “are in great plenty” and “a demand…will not fail to create them in as great a quantity as they are wanted.” Malthus, in contrast to Marx, had failed to take note of Lucretius’ materialist maxim “nil posse creari de nihilo,” out of nothing, nothing can be created. Nor did Malthus escape the pre-Darwinian notion that the capacity of organic life to change and “improve” was extremely limited. As Loren Eisely observed: “It is perhaps worth noting, since the biological observations of Malthus are little commented upon, that he recognized like so many others, the effects of selective breeding in altering the appearance of plants and animals, but regarded such alterations of form as occurring within admittedly ill-defined limits.”
There can be little doubt that the real aim of this neo-Malthusian resurrection of Malthus, then, was to resurrect what was after all the chief thrust of the Malthusian ideology from the outset: that all of the crucial problems of bourgeois society and indeed of the world could be traced to overprocreation on the part of the poor, and that attempts to aid the poor directly would, given their innate tendency to vice and misery, only make things worse. As Hardin put it in his essay, “Lifeboat Ethics: The Case Against Helping the Poor,” any attempt to open up international granaries to the world population or to relax immigration restrictions in the rich countries would only create a situation where: “The less provident and less able will multiply at the expense of the abler and more provident, bringing eventual ruin upon all who share in the commons.” Charity for the poor would not help the poor, he argued, but would only hurt the rich.
https://monthlyreview.org/1998/12/01/malthus-essay-on-population-at-age-200/
There's your displacing knowledge, fucking moron.
Never said that was was malthusianism was, lol.
That's exactly what you did from the beginning. You don't read your own posts.
I remain 100% correct. Since there is no communication happening here, this will be my last response in this chain. Solidarity forever.
You're a dipshit and faux civility shit is tiresome.
You are substituting a specific discussion on the means by which we produce how we live and the how the results are distributed for a much more general topic about total abstract carrying capacity (which is also variable according to both those factors I just mentioned).
Yeah I feel like this convo is people agreeing phlogiston isn't real then one person saying it's kinda real because combustion is essentially phlogiston if you squint just right because they both involve fuel.
rejected by every person that’s taken intro biology
Oh hell yeah, let's fuckin goooooooo