https://twitter.com/stealyoredbull/status/1369310124125413379
Nothing more terminally online than calling some of the furthest-left people in the country, who are actually going out and winning some measure of political power, fascists.
End of the day this online person is far more likely to be correct than the online idealists in this thread
I was just thinking of how far my radicalization has come over the last year that I agree with the poster in the screenshot lol. (Except for the social democrats being fascists-lite, that's hyperbolizing just a little)
When Prophecy Fails but for socdem berniecrats, eventually they'll figure out that their obsession with an ideology that died in the 1970s is just as fringe and online as any other leftist tendency that can't get its head out of mid-twentieth century
Anyway I can't wait for AOC to start twitch streaming with these newly elected DSA members and finally rebuild the industrial welfare state
It's all a part of the plan: 1.) Build socdem movement
2.) Build anti-war movement
3.) Build welfare state
4.) Make people fall in love with welfare state
5.) Use Anti-war movement to allow global south breaking out of supply chain
6.) Capitalism can't sustain welfare state
7.) Americans don't want to lose welfare state again
8.) ??????
9.) Chairperson Hirsi of the USSA denounces hexbear.su for liberal revisionism and has us put to the sword
The more likely scenario 1.) Attempt to build socdem movement
2.) Capitalism can’t sustain welfare state
3.) Attempt to build socdem movement...again
4.) Capitalism still can’t sustain the welfare state
5.) Attempt to build socdem movement one more time just for the heck of it
6.) Global South gets tired of waiting and decides to revolt against the global supply chain on its own
7.) America goes full fascist and triggers World War III
8.) Ten years after the post-atomic horror the Vulcans land
9.) ???
10.) FULL COMMUNISM
SocDems are historically fascist in regards to the Third World, not in relation to their own domestic politics
What do you think most imperial clients state are like, in many Third World countries the state is the perfect union between the international and local corporate elites and the military, the only major historical difference between these states and the European fascist states is the defense industry is international instead of internal
I think the dumbest thing about "social democracy is social fascism" is social democracy sucks enough and is already openly capitalist enough to not be imprecise with calling it fascism.
Historically social democrats become social fascists when they have to maintain the resource extraction from the Third World for their industrial export economies, the United States was a social democracy when it rained an apocalypse worth of ordnance on Southeast Asia, and France was a social democracy when it waged a colonial war of terror against Algeria
Industrial welfare capitalism requires industrial capitalism, which in turn requires imperialism which is maintained thru fascism in the global south
Yea, they often will fund fascists abroad if it means extraction while being socdems at home, but I think it fits best to call them capitalist still. Before fascism, capitalists did imperialism and rained hell and horror upon colonized regions just as effectively. Social fascists tends to make the argument around "well domestically they aren't fascist", and allows some "left" capitalists to imply a type of non extractive non exploitative capitalism.
Social democrats are capitalists, which means they'll utilize imperialism and ally with fascists to suppress the working class abroad while defusing it at home.
In light of the typical socdem response in regards to the upcoming global mass migration as a result of climate change, it's probably a better idea to stick with the 'Social Fash' label
You can already see that playing out with ethnonationalists taking power across Norway and Sweden. Only a matter of time before the rest of the social democracies face the same contradictions.
And there aren't enough socialists in succdem Scandinavia to win that fight.
The socdem response doesn't make it fascist either is my point, capitalists are entirely capable of doing racism and whipping up racial fears themselves without becoming fascists. It makes the issue centered around "socdems are actually fascist" as if capitalists that aren't fascist aren't just as much a threat to communism and the proletariat or as capable of employing horrific policies.
Social democrats are capitalists, which means they’ll utilize imperialism and ally with fascists to suppress the working class abroad while defusing it at home.
This is why we call them social fascists. There is no distinction. The only reason communists stopped openly calling them that was because the Comintern saw the Second World War coming and desperately needed allies. At the end of this road is communism or barbarism, and the social democrats cannot decide which one they hate more.
The Comintern only called them fascists during a specific era which was right around when fascism started emerging as a phenomenon. It's extremely silly to claim there is no distinction and proven wrong in practice, especially when online American leftists don't even seem to understand how the different stuff they call "fascism" is different. People should start actually analyzing stuff instead of using old aphorisms and pretending it's actually insightful. Yeah, you CAN act like everything ever is literally the same, except then your analysis will be nonsense.
Then don't call them social fascists, call them what they are-capitalists. Capitalism is enemy of the proletariat and we should be clear about that rather than giving socdems a chance to go "well see we're personally anti-fascist in this or that way". If the end of this road is communism or barbarism, why attack them with "fascism", allowing some capitalists that would lead us to barbarity to pretend there's a middle ground? Unless you mean to extend fascism to everything, in which case you should just use capitalist because that's what those that oppose communism already are.
"sOcial DemOcRacY hAsn'T beEn triED yEt" Social democracy is the political manifestation of Keynesian general theory applied to western macroeconomies post World War II, intended as a mass state-brokered collaboration between labor and capital designed to deescalate tensions between the two classes to combat the growing influence international communism....frankly it's a terrible name for a such fucked up and unstable ideology, they don't deserve those combinations of words, but they got dibs so too bad
No, it's been tried a million times. Just not in the US. The US has been more regressive than anyone else for a long time.
Doesn't matter how regressive the US was, it was still a social democracy, GI bill, Cola contracts, Reuther's Treaty of Detroit, creation of Social Security and Medicare, Section 8 Housing Program, Federal Works Agency, Mutual Ownership Defense Housing Division, the US being the primary backer of the Bretton Woods system, the US was the world's leading innovator in socdem tech
Social democracy ain't about being woke
Since when did I say it is about being "woke"? Regressive doesn't only mean "not woke". And what even is "socdem tech"? European social democrats went far beyond any of what you are describing, nationalizing big sections of the economy, creating public health systems. You can even see what Europe social democrats said about Roosevelt, Truman etc at the time, who were explicitly emphasising they weren't "socialists" which is what they used to call themselves. The US never had as powerful a labour movement as Europe.
The state doesn't really need social democrats on its side when it can far more easily crush their attempts at progress. So I don't think that person, or the people in this thread are likely to be correct.
yeah we have "social democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism" as a byline
Yup and I roll my eyes every time I see it.
Words, they have meanings folks
yes, though we also have bylines like "when we cum one we cum all." they aren't meant to be taken seriously.
"Social democracy is class collaboration" is a way better byline, mods need to change it
Hot take here:
The whole "social democracy is the moderate wing of fascism" thing really pisses me off. If liberals == fascists, then words don't fucking mean anything.
How is it any different? Because they kill 20 million communists in Indonesia and Latam instead of inside their own borders?
Edit: The DSA aren't in power nationally and have yet to truly confront the contradictions of imperialism and the welfare state. In the best case scenario where they take power they will be forced to confront them.
The party will eventually have to choose between taking a revolutionary stance or choose reform and thereby wither in consent to capitalist imperialism. That will be decided by whether the socialists can win out over the social democrats.
Why do you think it has to do with how many people someone killed and where?
Berniecrats tend to not understand imperialism or completely support it through ways they think is different than right wingers. The difference between saying that putting kids in immigrant cages is bad but unilateral bombings in the middle east is good is superficial, from the point of view of the victim both are fascist actions.
There is no such thing as something that is "fascist" according to the point of view of the victim. Fascism is not an action, or a relation between humans, it's a movement, or a way to organize a state. Imperialism alone isn't fascism, it is meaningful to make distinctions because we have historical precedent and we have to know what precisely something is similar to to know how to treat it.
The Bernie libs are by far the best allies you can have right now in the US, including for anti imperialism. It is fascinating that a sub full of people who were Bernie libs 2 years ago or less is so intent on calling them fascists.
I forget where I heard it (might have been on here), but someone once posted that a better way of looking at it is that social democracy is the left wing of capitalism and fascism is the right wing of capitalism. I never liked the original quote, there's no such thing as moderate fascism.
social democracy is the carrot of capitalism, while fascism is the stick
Except capitalism tends to exploit the wealth difference between regional and ethnic cohorts, while social democracy tends to smooth them over. As anyone familiar with the Volker-Era and the demand for a permanent tranche of unemployment can tell you, it's neither fascism nor social democracy that forces people into poverty through monetary policy. Neither are responsible for artificial shortfalls in food, health care, housing, or education.
The artificial scarcities of capitalism may polarize people into social democrat (we have enough if we redistribute it) and fascist (we only have enough for my people) camps. But they are not wings of capitalism, just political outgrowths of the material conditions capitalism creates.
I don't think it's any different when liberals kill and improvish millions of foreigners to maintain their hegemon and rate of profit but they're "nice" to people living within their borders.
Even then look at how Sweden and France reacting to refugees and how thin that veneer of civility and tolerance is. They don't really see the others as full and equal human beings. They still see themselves as more worthy than the poor under their boots, when they even think about them at all.
There's a real and ~ m a t e r i a l ~ difference between social democrats and fascists, like as an active leftist who do you need to know is in your neighborhood, social democrats going to brunch or actual fascists with guns and an explicitly extremist agenda for racial extermination?
I don't literally believe that but I say it to be provocative to soc dems when they support US interventions and stuff like that
See, I find that saying things that mangle words to the absolute limits of their meanings for shock value is actually a bad way to make people have better opinions.
what's a better way to address a person trying to convince me there's a pragmatic number of children to blow up?
Thinking about Black Red Guard saying western internet leftists are just insufferable and all need to surround themselves with normal people more often
It's incredible how many people get genuinely offended when you point this out. It makes sense if you put it that bluntly but being a western leftist myself it sometimes feels like we see any kind of criticism of our attitudes, beliefs, or tactics as some kind of sabotage to the left (which hardly meaningfully exists here anyway). If someone so much as suggests that we should change the way we approach everyday people we want to radicalize, they get snapped at by a bunch of kids who have never even been part of an org and think it's a personal attack. It's insane, entitled behavior and it sometimes happens here, too.
That reminds me of another BRG tweet: “ how is the American Left qualified to seize power if it handles minor beef like celebrities and gossip columnists? You want to cancel somebody for saying something that you took out of context and got offended over god knows how you'll deal with the masses who say fucked up shit.”
Not gonna link it cause I’m on mobile but I’m sure you can find it easily by searching those words on twitter. But yeah, I think westerners in general are so used to individualistic culture and way of living that any critique of their beliefs or approaches gets perceived as an intense attack on THEM, personally, rather than how WE should go about things. If that makes sense? Sorry I’m ESL and always have a hard time describing abstract ideas in English. But I think some western (especially white) leftists should occassionally take a step back and be like “would leftists from the global south think i’m a clown for this? does this really matter THIS much?” a great example of this is the 300+ comments we have on main right now about veganism lol.
In the end, being a communist surrounded by non-communists is more beneficial than being in an insular community as well. You can learn a lot from them, and they’ll learn a hell of a lot from you by virtue of you being a morally upright person who is vocally advocating for your beliefs, you are always advocating for leftism.
Based on some of the trash-tier takes I've seen from some people here, I agree with this. Go talk to people.
Being around non-leftists is truly a form of praxis (in my opinion). We can learn a lot from them and they will learn even more from us. Honestly it’s our duty to just be nice, normal people because we are always advocating for leftism. Though some may disagree with that. Idk I have many thoughts on stuff like this but it’s always hard to put into words.
It'll depend on the actions taken by those in nevada to prove whether or not they'll act for the benefit of the working class in acting to erode the state's power, or be assimilated into the machine work of the bougeoise.
Any communist worth their salt, pepper, and maybe some sugar as a treat, will investigate and observe the actions to be taken before passing judgment.
As the saying goes, NO INVESTIGATION, TO RIGHT TO SPEAK.
Call me crazy, but maybe calling everybody who disagrees with you a fascist is not a good way to get people on your side.
the large, unexpected gain by people to the left of the country's "left party" isn't a full on revolution, therefore it's bad to be excited by the possibilities it creates
I'm a commie too but come on guys, if we're gonna uphold people like Maduro or Lula or Morales then the fucking DSA are our comrades too. The practical fact is that the left in the United States is still far too small to be picky about who gets to be inside the tent, the only people you should wreck are wreckers.
Maduro, Lula, or Morales aren't tripping over themselves to prove to the right wing in their countries that they're happy to drop bombs all over the world or sanction poor countries into starvation.
Someone replied to that video on twitter asking for that video edit bot to YTP it, and I can't find the resulting video but I remember it being incredible. Anyone here happen to have it?
A lot of the posters in here should really check out Clara Zetkin's "The Struggle Against Fascism"
Facism is a very specific phenomenon, where the decline of the bourgeois state and its institutions, and defeat/failure of working class movments, pushes the middle layers of society petit bourgeois especially out of their privlieged positions, where they turn to fascist movements.
Yes obviously soc dem parties and states uphold imperalism and unequal development, and inherently cannot resolve capitalism's contradictions. Historically the failure of reformist of soc dem movements (Italy and Germany) lead to the rise of fascist movements, as people who wrongly equate them with socialism and communism see their failure and are demoralised with their promise of socialism which are unfulfilled . Statements like soc dems = fascism aren't really helpful. Being precise in our study and definining of fascism is essential if we want to combat and fight it properly.
The liberal-to-ultraleft pipeline is often accompanied by an obsession with labels that have no applicability outside of branding on internet forums. What’s the difference between a De Leonist, Council Communist and a Syndicalist when none are able to fill the room they reserved at the library with working people? ...
This also applies to electoral abstentionists, many of whom were loudly and proudly part of the mass support for democratic socialist candidates in the past. These newly radicalized liberals then abandon the very mass work that brought them and countless others into the movement in favor of “more radical tactics.” The obsession with radical tactics comes from the fact that liberals believe that they had always been armed with the right morality and analysis but had simply lacked the right tools to succeed.
https://washingtonsocialist.mdcdsa.org/ws-articles/21-03-breaking-the-cycle
If it isn't an aesthetic social revolution, why bother!? :penguin-dance: oh the joys of western leftism
