These narratives have real world consequences. Anytime you mention Xinjiang or that China is committing a "genocide" to liberals and conservatives it helps spread this shit. It helps reinforce Sinophobic narratives and will result in more deaths. Combat these lies and this propaganda where you see It. It is our moral duty to do so.
I find it telling that every center left site I know of is radio silent on this recent shooting. Probably because they’re worried about pondering it’s implications.
r/neoliberal
r/GamerGhazi
Jezebel
uhhhhhh, okay maybe 3
Everything is about politics. None of these politicians, people or news agencies actually care.
1.) It appears he used a handgun, which will do damage to their "AR-15s DO MASS MURDER!!!!!" narrative/legislation.
and
2.) It'll take air-time away from their Capitol "riot" meme, which they've been successfully using to distract people from how shitty the Democrats actually are, now that they have absolute power.
And on the "riot," I finally took the time to watch more of the footage... it's basically a bunch of morons and boomers literally just wandering around taking pictures. Most of them didn't even leave the velvet ropes lol, it's the weirdest fucking thing. Calling it a riot is far, far too generous... and insulting to actual rioters everywhere. Some guys outside destroyed some camera equipment though, so I guess that's something. Look at this:
It was the strangest fucking thing... they kept screaming not to damage anything... then said a prayer? Then told the cops they loved them? Then eventually politely left because the cops asked them to?
The reality of the situation is all of this stuff is just a distraction: Jan 6 was some inconsequential bullshit, "student loan forgiveness" will never happen, universal healthcare will never happen, etc, etc... all of this stuff is just a smokescreen the establishment can hide behind while they do establishment shit. All these people care about is getting re-elected so they can line their pockets with "speaking fees" from their owners.
I like to immediately pivot to all the messed up, indefensible stuff the US does. It's embarrassing for them to realize that they don't care very strongly about social issues since they ignore so god damn many of them in the U$. The US stands on a mountain of misdeeds that's constantly getting larger and wants to pass judgment -- and everybody knows US 'judgment' often consists of lies, and is usually tethered to some extractivist enterprise they want from the country.
I'm sorry sir, but you just committed a "whataboutism". Clearly that gives me the green light to say chinese people are evil.
"Well how is it wrong if we do it?" is a good socratic counter
I'm talking about having a real life conversation where people don't call each other trolls
Do you know what number that is or the title maybe? I don't think I've listened to that one.
Many people won’t refer to the camps at the border as concentration camps because “that’s offensive to Holocaust survivors” but also it’s fine to use the word it it’s a different country...
But just in general I’m sick of Holocaust comparisons. For anything. It’s like it’s been... not co-opted, per se, but just used as a comparison for everything else bad nowadays. More than 50% of my race didn’t die out for people to always say “actually this is WORSE than that.”
No one in real life has a serious opinion on the topic. 90% of americans think about China once a month maybe. They believe what CNN or MSNBC or Fox tells them and don't think past that.
Online folks are either psychotic or actually signal boosted by the propaganda machine/propagandists themselves.
But for real, in my irl experience, I just drop some Zenz facts and bring up ETIM and people usually flip. I think everyone has an opinion, but no one has strong opinions and it's mostly smoke.
If there was actual drafting going on and initiation of conflict, you'd see that number drop real quick. There aren't videos of brutality, it's all imaginary right now. So people are just believing it, but without much conviction.
Again, this doesn't account for the online neolib psychos or the right wing racists that just see this as an opening for them to do hate crimes and have slightly better PR.
Also wtf is the position "yeah there is a genocide happening, but we shouldn't do anything about it". Like Goddamn if I ever say that fucking put me in a ditch and blow my brains out.
It's a pretty normal position if you are an American, we haven't gone to war over genocide since WWII, we never intervened in Sudan or Somalia or Rwanda or any other country doing genocide
And since this will be my last post here: do you really think that a war between China and the US is what us genocide believers want? A war between two fully nuclear armed nations? Just how do you think that war would end? It'd end with everyone in the world dead.
I would say we've never gone to war over genocide. I think we pretty much entered WW2 because we we're dragged into it. If Japan wasn't threatening US colonies (Philippines) which prompted the oil embargo and which then caused pearl harbor, I don't think we would have ever been involved.
A war between two fully nuclear armed nations?
I don't think this is politically possible.
But, imagine a border conflict between India and China, not fully acknowledged by any involved country, into which NATO pours resources and escalates for a decade without ever becoming a "war" or even getting more than a token news story. That seems like it could happen.
well except for the fact both India and China are nuclear powers and most likely won't engage in anything beyond the skirmishes they've been having on their border regions, barring sudden international events.
The war in the middle east was always a war against communism. Afghanistan was used to beat the USSR and now they plan on using Xinjiang and Turkey to beat China.
China saw what happened with the Soviets though, and is proceeding cautiously. They aren't sending troops and they're focusing on internal affairs first. If they can keep this up, I don't see how they'll collapse first. They'll always lose the arms race against America and they know that.
Did I imply that you (genocide believers) did want a war? I don't think anyone, bar Posadists, really want a war between China and the US.
Yup. I’m sure China has institutional racism and police brutality like every other country but it’s already getting a disproportionate amount of attention. More often than not with superlatives and outright lies. Don’t need the ‘left’ from Amerikkka talking about it. Sort your own fascist country out first.
i would but then the 90y/o lady without a mask will complain to the manager again
I'm not a manager, but if I were, I'd explicitly encourage stealing manager valor in order to tell customers to fuck off
I think the Xinjiang shit is honestly an internal matter and even if they were doing what they are said to be doing, alas.
But Lol I will not just stand silent as China tries to buy up my countries infrastructure. Don't give a fuck if it's Americans, other Western countries, or China. External powers are never gonna do any thing for our benefit.
China has the best deals right now for any country seeking investment. They promote unions and usually transfer ownership back to a state company after the investment plus some interest is made back. I don't see how that's bad compared to the IMF and their infinite perpetual 6x returns loans.
Firstly, lol if you think incompetent governments can pay shit back. I wouldn't trust my government to find their way out of a plastic bag. Secondly, I know the union talk. The union is so great that they won't lift a finger unless someone says something mean. I did better union by myself by going into the office of a manager from the company, pointing a gun at his head and telling him that unless he fixes something that was an oversight, he and his whole family can find themselves in a lake.
IMF is trash, that's not a given anyway.
The "paying back" part of the Chinese deals is almost always a profit sharing scheme though. Like look at their recent mine and port deals. They maintain a 51% share of profits until the investment is paid off plus a bit, then they transfer full ownership to the state company. At that point it's on you and the local government structure and China isn't involved anymore. Unlike Western loans that create dependence and permanent debt...
And I'm sure the local unions are corrupt as fuck, but again, that's on you and not China...or are they supposed to show up with guns and kill your leaders? I don't really see how that's less imperialist than developing infrastructure and creating the basic structures necessary for a labor movement.
I want my country to put into effect the same rules that China has without them whining that's it's some anti-Chinese conspiracy. At least with Western loans they are outright that they are trying to fuck you.
I don't see your point. Do you think no investment is better? Or China should only do charitable investment? Or that China should be exporting revolution like the Soviets did?
Lol I'll give you an example. China wanted to build a highway in our country. They started it, didn't even want to hire local workers and the ones they did they tried to not pay them or pay way under the minimum wage. Then they dipped halfway through the project so the country had to find another company to finish the project. Years wasted, money wasted.
The answer is no, China is not doing that, because that isn’t what they are doing in any country.
It's not even debt-trap. I don't want China, much less any other country to own my countries infrastructure or industries. Oh China doesn't allow foreign companies to invest in certain important industries, cool, then we shall follow their example. China doesn't allow foreigners to own property in China, cool, we should do the same.
simply Chinese citizens and companies?
Ya dude, the state owned company that is trying to buy shit is definitely not tied to the Chinese government. Just ordinary Chinese citizens who happen to work for a state-owned company. Like I said, China doesn't give my countries citizens any rights while in China, we shouldn't give any foreigners that right either. Free market be damned.
Ya dude, one residential property, while we are supposed to allow their citizens to be able to buy up as many properties as they want. They have rules for their own citizens and have rules for foreigners. I know the game, too bad our government is too much of a spineless being to put rules on foreigners and non-citizens. Like I said, not anti-China, I put them into the same category as any other foreign entity, not for my countries best interest.
Plus rights are some delusional shit people like to believe in, like magic. We were tricked into believing we are ever truly free, like we aren't all at the whim of the government blowing your head off at any moment.
Well, a lot of China is lending money to countries but the people they are lending it to aren't exactly model patriots. Many are part of the landlord ecosystem with peasants, and much of that infrastructure is just to move product and has nothing or little to do with overcrowded cities and their damned traffic. Secondly, I take a lot of criticism from citizens from ASEAN countries with a grain of salt. Sure, there are tons of undocumented migrants from China living there, but there is hardly a hostile takeover there that some of those citizens claim. There's tons of sinophobia in ASEAN countries and they will make an inch into a mile with whatever China does. I'm less aware of Africa-China relations, so I have nothing to say for that situation.
I think if you are going to criticize China I think you should be long winded about it. The fact that China has gotten so many people out of poverty and they are spreading soft power with great deals on loans with the global majority is something they should be proud about. Meanwhile, America has bombed so many places and can't even solve its pandemic issues. At least China cancelled all the interest in certain Ethiopian infrastructure products. Make sure that people who criticize China aren't just projecting in bad faith.
In my home country it’s the ‘left’ that (successfully) nationalised a lot of industries that wants to take China’s loans to build infrastructure. While the right who privatised basically everything when they got the chance are anti China.
What’s the situation there, just curious?
You can try to explain this to the westerners here lol, they never gave a fuck when i told them they're knowingly funneling money to fash oligarchs in Europe.
It's getting more and more important. Especially as we see the affects of the anti-china pivot by the state department.
I honestly just need someone to explain this to me. As far as I'm aware it seems like China is committing a genocide, and I get there's possibly an argument to be made that mentioning this stokes sinophobic sentiment and that sucks but also I don't feel like that weight is on me when there's an actual genocide going on. I don't hate anti nazi propaganda for stoking German hate or whatever. It's the lesser evil basically. But anywho, is there not a genocide than and if so, reputable sources.
To add to this:
Top US Army Chief Admits Xinjiang Uyghur Unrest is a CIA Narrative
NED (basically a CIA offshoot) admits to funding Uyghur separatist groups in a still undeleted tweet
Furthermore, some discussions accept that there's no actual genocide but claim that there is "cultural genocide". These range from:
-
citing demolition of mosques, which doesn't seem to be happening + IIRC China has the 2nd most mosques per capita in the world (behind only Saudi Arabia)
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Claiming that Uyghur language is banned and they aren't allowed to use it in the 'camps' (yet even in propagandistic BBC documentaries you can see Uyghur script everywhere)
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Claiming that they aren't allowed to wear "traditional dress" and "long beards are banned" - the beards part is actually true, but it isn't Uyghur custom to wear the "dress" they speak of or long beards - those are associated with the Uyghur separatists that were radicalised by ISIS.
Anyway, Uyghur population is growing, Xinjiang is thriving, Uyghur public figures seem to be doing pretty well for themselves. All very not-genocidey things. Are re-education camps the ideal solution? Probably not, but here we are living in the real world and not a utopia.
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Ok, so I read the whole thing and apologize for my response being much shorter, but I appreciate the thoroughness. With that said, it seems like it'd be fair to say the treatment of Uyghurs is somewhere between US/black relations with a bit of Native American education/ cultural influence, right? Because if that's so, I still feel like they're well within being criticized.
I don't talk about the China situation with anyone outside of leftist spaces (mostly here and friends) and I've just never liked this idea of "we shouldn't criticize other countries for doing bad because it's not as bad as we're being told and America only spreads that narrative for empire reasons. Like America can be doing bad things, but so can the other side, and I feel like people would be more willing to listen to our side if we were more willing to admit that America isn't always "the only" bad guy in a situation. I mean maybe that's not the best strategy, but it seems it to me
If you'll humor me another question, if you were a Uyghur, do you think you'd support the Chinese efforts. I guess ultimately, that's always my hardline for things like this. And I'll even admit, I do believe it's possible (though strikingly unlikely when done by a government, but maybe that's my US/ Capitalist conception of government (under which I would still largely place China)) that there could be efforts that would be opposed by a populace, but ultimately beneficial for them, which I would support. Say for example implementing Socialism. But I guess all that said would you label it as just "not that bad" to which I would counter "bad is bad and I can't support it" or a "necessary evil".
What is a credible source to you? I don't know what to say it's not going to be hanging out in mainstream news channels. (Not that I'm necessarily accusing you of asking for this) I mean it has kinda lost all its meaning at this point because it has been said to death but nearly all news you see from the region is from Adrian Zenz, a Christian fundamentalist, who is on an ordained mission from God to destroy the CPC. Generally, speaking I would put the onus on the accuser of genocide to you know prove it. All I have time to do right now is share this video on it. https://youtu.be/8yURIS7S9zg
I'm sure other people here will probably be able to provide a more in-depth breakdown
I'm sorry but you ask "what is credible" and then post a video of a guy using the worst vocoder and wearing a ski mask and glasses like he's in a ransom video, and it's over an hour long with less than 25k views? That would honestly make a good comedy bit, worked right. I'm not saying it's maybe not a good source, but honestly I'm not watching that.
“Somebody explain Xinjiang to me”
“I’m not watching that” ok. There’s no genocide happening, how about you provide the evidence that has you convinced there is a genocide, so people know why you think that in the first place so they know what it is that needs to be explained.
I mean to be fully honest, I actually am watching it now, it's just funny posting this as a credible bit (again not saying it's not, just surface level). I'll get back to you when it's done or I'm done watching it at least.
I’m not the one that linked it to you. I haven’t watched that video yet myself but I’ve seen others by that guy, he tends to cite all his sources.
As for what I'd count as credible, Idk, maybe a good on the ground reporter?
Have you seen a credible good on the ground reporter that says there is a genocide?
Yeah sorry, I meant that as rhetorical. They've been here for a bit and it just boggled my brains they're still stuck on the china bad brain rut.
I mean i've been here since the beginning, I just made this account 4 months ago. My reddit account is like 10 years old and I've been on chapo for a long time there
I mean I've actually been here since the beginning, I just finally made an account 4 months ago. You can check my reddit too, it's like 10 years old u/fawxhox.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1287411708374454273.html
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s_w/mobilebasic
What exactly do you think a genocide is? Even if all the most outrageous, hyperbolic accusations against China in mainstream press were true, it wouldn’t rise to the level of genocide.
Check the imgur user fawxhox if you want to see it. It's 6.25", pretty unremarkable
damn what's it like to be hung
edit: I've been had! Where is this hog you speak of?
Is it not on there? It was at one point, I may have deleted it at one point because a lot of real life people know my username. If you want to see it I'd be happy to send it to you, nevertheless
Explain to me how not spreading shaky at best genocide allegations is sucking the CPC's dick?
I mean, I think there's a distinction between saying "these allegations are unproven" and "there is substantial evidence, but we will defend them anyway".
"you can suck cpc dick"
they said, gargling the nuts of the US state department
