:azan:
Though he did clarify they don't have a worse police state than the US. He just both-sides it.
Edit - It's a law of hexbear that every discussion must turn into a struggle session. Especially if the discussion involves China.
China has fewer prisoners per capita than the global average. That doesn't mean they're not a police state, but it does imply that if you consider them to be a police state then your definition is so broad as to be useless.
China will send Police to arrest you if you threaten the state, like a lot of places. Saying they are a Police state though should take into account how Chinese People perceive the police, and a lot of Chinese people and people living in China have shared that they normally see police as kind of push-overs who get bullied by screaming old ladies, or various other interactions where they think they're restrained almost to the point of impotency.
I mean, the Police problem is really bad in America, it's truly hard to compare to anywhere else. Even in 3rd world nations where the Police are known for taking bribes and using torture, I've had people from Iraq tell me they trusted interacting with their own police more than American cops to not to act like degenerate psychos out to ruin their lives.
Then it becomes a useless term because "police state" implies that it's a special variant of a state.
If all states fit the criteria of "police state" then that's just a state. The issue lies with parallel terms for the same thing:
Our state is their police state
Our prison is their prison camp
Our government is their regime
Etc.
If there's a differing use of words, but not a differing reality between two things then you've found yourself a propaganda.
reminds me of the bit on how the media describes stuff from the DPRk vs. USA. literally all about making one place sound scary and alien, and the other one swell with nothing wrong happening.
Almost like nearly everything you hear about the DPRK is just pure propaganda because it's one of the few nations that just doesn't care about what is said about it. The only reason they don't do the same with Vietnam, China, and Cuba is because they're moderately opened or have international trade relations that regulate the amount of propaganda they can get away with without risking severing those ties.
The only reason they don’t do the same with Vietnam, China, and Cuba is because they’re moderately opened or have international trade relations that regulate the amount of propaganda they can get away with without risking severing those ties.
:cia: : Challenge accepted
It's worked well despite China being an open country at the center of world trade.
i literally do not watch streams, can't do it.
I will, however, engage in hate campaigns against debate streamers lmao
honestly i don't get the appeal of streaming, i always want to jump ahead and can't because its live lol. sometimes i've watched some speedruns and other stuff but by and large streaming just doesn't seem to appeal to me
ah, tbh I don't really get the idea of parasocial relationships either. I think I'm just too old. I'll never be able to see entertainers as not a separate thing if that makes sense. They're just like entertainment to me, I'm not trying to be friends or whatever.
I have a strict diet of Jerma only, the only nonproblematic streamer period
legit impossible lol. streamers are like fast food honestly. also, he's currently going through fucking joe rogan. like this is double dose i'm not ready for.
I'll stop watching twitch streamers if you find me a better way to mainline Q psycho content straight into my veins.
Julian Feeld/QAA's streams are like a zoo for sickos.
:sicko-surveillance:
you could cut out the middle man and just go to like pol or 8chan or wherever it is they hang out now.
BRB, need to run to the post and mail Mike Pillow this blood sample and copy of my social security card so I can get onto Frankspeech
Remember when he went on chapo and told them that Destiny was a good content creator?
I member.
hasan is only popular because he is hot and no one will ever convince me otherwise
Love to advocate for socialism while streaming from the 100 Thieves™ CashApp™ Compound
I get that everyone has to eat but I will never take any of these youtubers seriously if they do stuff like this. He is not hurting for money. Have some principles.
dude also just collects his millions in Bezos bucks and doesn't even do a performative bit of mutual aid or donating to those that do or bail funds.
weak. I honestly can't imagine having the values I have and more money than I need and not using it to spread socialism. Isn't that like the point?
I don't believe its a bit but I could be mistaken.
https://twitter.com/100Thieves/status/1383488247678922753
Yeah I dunno it was when he first started to get really big I think.
Primarily because if their numbers are so much lower than the global average then they clearly aren't the problem. It's like complaining about a room that you aren't even in being too hot when the rest of the house is on fire.
Also unless you live in mainland China, this isn't your problem (especially because almost everyone that doesn't lives in a place with a higher incarceration rate) and making it your problem is just carrying water for intervention narratives/human rights industrial complex.
What you can do is fight against incarceration in your own nation, just as many activists in China are doing in China. Like seriously, imagine if China was threatening to invade it sanction the USA for its prison population. How would that play?
Or you know, we could just point out the fact that China is not a brutal police state, instead of assuming it is because, of course, it's China, so how could it not be, Western media told me so. This is mainly for @wtypstanaccount04.
Seriously, as someone that lives in China, sometimes is disgusting to see the ignorance and racisim (yes, from a position of total ignorance without having lived in China, nor knowing how to speak Chinese, assuming that Chinese are always doing bad things is quite racist) displayed here.
Yeah, I'm a good old boy from the Eastern US lol. If I can get over my national chauvinism and understand that the order of magnitude of the issues at play here are incomparable, I can't think of any other demographic that should get a pass.
Like holy shit people, most cops in China don't even carry weapons and they're a significantly smaller portion of the population. They're basically organized in the way the most radical US police reform proposals suggest.
Not most cops, all normal cops don't carry guns. Only the armed police can carry one, and they are quite uncommon. I have personally never seen one, and I live in the capital of China. Comparing China to the US in terms of police brutality, or police state is a big joke. Cops are a joke in China, and I mean it in the good sense.
Reminds me of the old USSR joke about cops, something about how their holster would be better used for a doughnut because they never use their guns.
I have personally never seen one
Dude I've seen swat teams and snipers on my block in a white neighborhood. America is so fucked
I mean you're right that we don't really need to be calling China perfect, but the libs are gonna think what they want regardless
I would disagree, I think it is moving that way but very very slowly and not anywhere near enough.
On the contrary, I think China has actually taken a very dialectical approach to the progression of socialism.
Socialism is the inevitable conclusion of capitalist production. They had some slip ups in the 90s, but the current direction has taken a very sharp turn away from those policies and back to the path. The state still maintains control over all land rights and the only really bad thing is the codification of property right into the constitution (even if it's collective, state, and private with heavy restrictions on the last).
That's not something that can't be changed though, and it seems as though the general movement in China is to begin nationalizing all the industry currently privatized right now. In order to do that without being totally cut off from the global markets though, they have to create a medium of exchange that dethrones the petro-dollar or financial imperialism of the US will be used to destroy them the same way it did the USSR.
It's a really boring play and not as cool as 1917 or Paris, but it shows how socialism has grown and adapted to rapidly changing conditions of production and the acceleration of turnover. Dethroning the US empire in their own game will basically be the death knell of international capitalism as we know it. The pressure on revolutions in colonized territories will dissapate and we'll start seeing a new wave of revolutions around the world like we did in the beginning of the 20th century.
Possibly even some in China as the need for this type of state disappears with the death of the US empire.
they have to create a medium of exchange that dethrones the petro-dollar
Do you think this is the intention behind the digital Yuan? or is that more for greater transparency with regards to the flow of money?
This threatens the dollar over the long term," in an article that described the digital yuan as "a re-imagination of money that could shake a pillar of American power."
It's absolutely at least one of the reasons. I think since the 20th century, there's actually been a kinda devolution of capitalism into its more primitive commercial form. Or at least a resurgence of commercial capital as a more powerful force with international banking and dominance of the petro dollar as global reserve currency.
it is all the more clear what we have to accomplish at present: I am referring to ruthless criticism of all that exists ruthless both in the sense of not being afraid of the results it arrives at and in the sense of being just as little afraid of conflict with the powers that be.
Police, like the state, have a class aspect to them, police in a proletarian state are different from those in a bourgeoise state.
Is China a proletarian state or a capitalist state in transition?
I'd argue that much of the "China Bad" rhetoric is purely projection by Westerners who can't conceive of a police force less draconian and brutal as it's own.
But, like, even Carl Xha periodically complains about the reactionary state of Chinese censorship. And then there's the various blue laws and nacro-laws common to nearly every post industrial state.
Whatever may be said of its peers, China certainly isn't the model for a leftist community defense force.
My take on China is that it's a proletarian state in a primarily capitalist system, which means that Chinas police and state as a whole are not fully proletarian in character due to the fact that the bourgeoise has a certain degree of influence it's interests are reflected in law and police.
But at the same time its obviously and meaningfully proletarian too and not solely dedicated to bourgeoise interests, as demonstrated by the crackdowns on corruption and flat out executions of the very most corrupt who take bribes or do other financial crime regardless of their wealth.
But at the same time its obviously and meaningfully proletarian too and not solely dedicated to bourgeoise interests
I think that still kinda remains to be seen. It is definitely not dedicated to western bourgeoisie interests. Being anti-colonial is necessary but not sufficient.
I have a hard time judging Chinese policing from behind a language barrier and a media barrier and a geographic barrier, so I could be wrong about everything. But it seems as though the state is more in line with FDR-Era state capitalism than a serious Marxist government.
To me at least, its activities in breaking up monopolies and the business empires of corrupt billionaires as well as flat out executing those who commit crimes shows that its not just hostile towards the western bourgeoise, but that it has its national bourgeoise on an increasingly tight leash, which is essential for the development of China. But I also understand if some people feel sceptical still that its differences point to a proletarian state, I guess it will just have to be seen how they continue onwards towards the 2050 date.
no.
modern police are an invention of capitalism. they serve to protect private property. a proletarian state doesn't have private property, and there would be no need to have a gang to protect it.
it sucks that china adopted the idea in the first place, and hopefully as they grow towards socialism they'll start to phase it out and replace it with something more inline with a community neighborhood watch.
To me this just sounds like deciding that the term police has a fixed absolute definition and that you have to change the name to something more complicated to make it good and acceptable under communism, theres no reason you can't just have a socialist/communist police force thats different from bourgeoise police forces, also theres the fact that a neighboorhood watch, while good for most crimes, is limited in scope and ability and theres still gonna be a use and need for an overarching force that can handle specialized issues and crimes that span more than just a community.
it's not changing the fucking name, it's literal replacement with something better. when people call to 'abolish the police' they call to abolish the fucked up system of an armed group of thugs that have impunity to law. cuba has 8 million people in their fucking neighborhood watch, and yes they still have a smaller force that handles specialized issues, but the fact that 80 percent of their population takes place in their neighborhood watch is what keeps their country the way it is, and is far more aligned with the idea of communism than having anything comparable to the police in the US.
a proletarian state doesn’t have private property, and there would be no need to have a gang to protect it
Proletarian state can still have things that are in short supply that should be distributed according to the principles of common proletarian good. Some asshole stealing communal property might be less the ideal.
There are also non-property crimes, like crimes of passion and shit.
Yeah, a neighborhood watch isn't gonna be able to solve certain shit like a serial killer going around multiple places like Chikatilo, simply because you can't equip every neighborhood watch with extensive education in spotting patterns and building a profile, nor can you equip them all with forensic laboratories to analyse evidence(In theory you could but it's far less effective than having specialized forces who cover much larger areas but less overall crimes).
Ian Miles Cheong, retweeted by Joe Rogan, lmao.
Edit: To elaborate, if the best source for this you can find is a nazi who still cares about gamergate deeply, retweeted by the most gullible far right podcaster on planet earth, I'm not gonna take this very seriously as evidence of anything and neither should anyone else.
What is the context of this video? How do I know this is "chinese police"? It's posted on a YouTube channel that seems to be exclusively MMA news?
the context of the video is obvious if you watch it. they're wearing chinese police uniforms and speaking chinese and using tiger chairs, which are used widely in china.
i critically support china because they are making leaps and bounds in terms of ending poverty and expanding communism, but a cops a cop, those chairs are fucked, and that you get put in one for criticizing cops on the internet is pretty fucked up.
Like a couple 10 second clips of cops punching someone isn't "cops in this country are violent and irredeemable". People elsewhere have pointed out that cops in China don't carry guns either. I get the point that there are cops in China that are just like American cops, who are abusive psychos but is there any evidence its a widespread systemic thing like it is in the US?
cops in every country are violent and irredeemable. and chinese cops have carried guns since like 2014.
It sounds like it's only some officers that have guns. I don't think it's a standard thing still.
either way, i just provided you with a video where someone was put into one of those chairs for even criticizing cops, the idea that there's going to be a massive amount of footage of their abuse is illogical, but there's enough to provide a look at the similarities between our cops and theirs. but the point being is that a cop by definition is a bastard. a hammer and sickle isn't going to change that. there needs to be international police reform and community policing/police elections, and their actions need to be open to citizen review in every single country. we can strive towards communism, but if we're going to empower/enable this kind of shit while striving towards it, then we're still living in fear of our governments.
china's great in a lot of ways, but piker's take that china is a police state much like the US is legitimate.
edit: cops by number in china probably have far less murders, but they are still state sanctioned thugs, and that's just something that comes with a hierarchical system of policing authority, it's easily open to abuse.
the idea that there’s going to be a massive amount of footage of their abuse is illogical
No it isn't, it stands to reason that if they are committing a lot of abuses there's going to be a lot of footage of it just like there is in the US, considering how many people in China walk around with smart phones and it isn't some cloistered off hermit kingdom.
probably have far less murders
Not probably, the number of people killed by police in China is very typically single digits for an entire year, compared to almost 1,000 a year in the US, and thats with China having 4 times as many people. So it's a difference of like 400x.
I do agree that interrogation video is messed up and an abuse of power, and definitely worthy of criticism. I would just caution against drawing an equivalence between the US and China on this issue, I don't think they are in the same ballpark. From what I have heard from people in China they're not even close to as bad as US police.
either way, i just provided you with a video where someone was put into one of those chairs for even criticizing cops
I would like to mention that while I am opposed to torture and thus forced lockdowns in chairs like that (also in mental hospitals btw.), the outrage about that video from the western online audience and existence of that video does tell a lot.
The only thing I want to write about though is that it acts as if the US for example wouldn't have the praxis of punishing people with forced and stress positions - so with other words torture - people, be it in Guantanamo, be it in prison, be it in black sites, be it in jails, be it in police stations, be it in mental hospitals, be it in "private" prisons, be it in orphanages, be it in the Teenage-conversion-industry, be it in Chicagos black sites were they torture people without any liberal-cause at all.
The chairs are widely used in the US and feature heavily in series of abuses, there are stress position torture, sexual abuses including pretty heavy stuff, forced feeding, general abuse and also murder associated with them.
I will not talk about that the history of those US restrains is centuries old and did only get marginal better (and for many didn't get better at all), but ask - why is this not common knowledge and where is the just wrath against it?
Furthermore the US has a history of torture to press out confessions, while the mode changed since the 1930s some police units didn't change much and threats are still essential to the US "penal" system.
ACAB is very true within the US.
of course, it's true everywhere. all cops are bastards, especially american cops.
China Uncensored is literally Falun Gong, like I said with the other clip if this is the best you have then at best you're gullible as fuck and at worst you're flat out trying to spread anticommunism on this site.
Like disguising this shit as "Oh its just a chud news anchor" is flat out maliciously trying to obscure the fact that you linked a literal far right cult as your evidence.
Edit: Also "context is obvious if you watch the video" is not a real answer when someone asks for more evidence, police uniforms aren't some kind of secret garment that is locked up in safes whenever not in use, nor is "these are widely used in China" evidence either except that the video is from China, thats like filming a video of waterboarding and saying that because the US does waterboarding, this is evidence of US waterboarding in this video. Its a fucking weird video for many reasons and your dismissal of peoples concern is suspicious as fuck, especially when paired with the fact that both the video above and the one in your comment here are literally from extreme far right sources.
dude you're full of shit. as i said, ignroe the chud, but the fucking videos of cops literally dropping a woman to the ground by her neck is legitimate video. if you try to doubt it you're a fucking bootlicker
You can't just fucking link literal far right sources and say "Oh ignore the chud", am I gonna fucking link you stormfront and say "Oh all the nazi shit doesnt matter just watch their evidence"?
If you cant find anyone better that has acknowledged this that says a fucking lot about the shit you are trying to claim is fact and real.
i put up three different videos from three different sources of cops being cops. you definitely sound like a fuckin bootlicker.
You got one from a neo nazi gamergater, one from a far right cult that claims china is literally run by satan behind the scenes, and then one thats just a raw video.
Lead with the raw video instead of weakly fucking going "Oh all the nazi shit they say is irrelevant just watch the evidence", like do you not realize how fucking suspicious it looks when twice your apparent best sources are full blown reactionaries infamous for spreading reactionary propaganda? Or better yet just fuck off.
Ok nazi, go jerk off to Li Hongzi and maybe he will cure all your problems.
you tried to label me a fuckin op for showing you that ACAB, while you're defending police abuse. you are indeed a fucking bootlicker, don't fuckin call me a nazi.
Why are you defending linking nazi sources then and dismissing all concerns that apparently the only people who care about this are nazis?
i didn't do any of that, i'm saying that the videos that they're using are still fucking videos of actual events. not "only nazis" care about international police brutality, in the fact the only people that don't care about it tend to lick boots.
i'm disengaging.
Its common practice to not fucking provoke people when disengaging but fine, you do you, big baby.
if there was a source that didn't have a chud talking through it i would have used that, but the video in no way looks manipulated. you're literally using the fact that someassholes are using it, as a proof to claim that i'm aligned with them. shitty places can report on real things that occur in real life.
Yeah lemme go get it.
- Police are the state-sanctioned violence that protects private property in a capitalist system.
- China is capitalist in transition.
- China has police.
QED ACAB
Are they as bad as US police? Probably not. Are they police? ACAB.
To hand-wring about what political streamers say. This is a 69th type of liberalism.
Don't act like you didn't post this with the intention of provoking a struggle session.
The real struggle session is the friends we made along the way
Maybe. Anything's possible. I'm not entirely convinced that China's even real. I've definitely never seen it.
