Debunking NATO propaganda and consent manufacturing means massively massively more than your personal relationships and comfort. I don't want to hear how hard it is to be called a 'shill for Putin'. People should have already been calling you a shill for Assad, for Kim Jong Un, for Xi, for Castro or you have been fucking NEGLIGENT AS LEFTISTS. If you're in the imperial core your primary fucking duty is to anti imperialism. Clearly a lot of you haven't been doing this. Now there are possible nuclear consequences and I see a great deal of you still too fucking chicken shit to stick their necks out for people living under the thumbs of America and NATO. Investigate the situation thoroughly and have an informed, consistent take based in Marxism and historical materialism and then REPEAT IT LOUDLY AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND LET IT BE KNOWN THAT THE WORKERS OF THE WORLD DO NOT STAND FOR THIS. This is supposed to be a board of principled communists, act like it.
Read Combat Liberalism
The fun part of being in the imperial core is when the dronies start squealing for blood and we get to bully them back.
It’s easy to dunk on the libs and chuds when they’re fighting each other. It’s important to fight with them both when they agree on something.
I got asked IRL if I was a tankie now... Like no mfer I'm just ideologically consistent.
Anarchist here, who has recently been called "tankie" for calling B.S. on U.S. propaganda. I guess Chomsky is a "tankie" too.
Even MLs and their tiny subset of actual tankies don't do Russia/Putin, because the latter are explicitly and unabashedly capitalist.
Liberals just can't do fucking words. :shrug-outta-hecks:
EVEN THE ANARCHISTS ARE ON BOARD! LEFT UNITY ACHIEVED. PARTY LINE OR WHATEVER ANARCHISTS DO ACTIVATE!
Chomsky's take on Ukraine has been consistent with the "It's bad but NATO started it" line we arrived at too
So...I'm starting to imagine maybe this should be the general leftist position and we should fucking stick to it?
Western Left position should be: No involvement in war, negotiate peace for both parties. No more arms, no more volunteers, no more drones.
Im a tankie
Just embrace it comrade. We all are tankies on this blessed day
I'll let other people call me it, but I'll call myself a Marxist Leninist. I'll reclaim the slur but I won't self describe as one
I'm gonna continue calling myself an anarchist to pull radlibs to the left. It also accurately describes my praxis.
Embrace toolbox theory. All tendencies are just tools in our revolutionary toolbox.
does calling yourself an anarchist really endear you to radlibs more? I can see them finding it less offensive than ML but still offensive. I suppose simply calling yourself a lib to trick them would be too much compromising of your principles.
hmm, i suppose that is a lot of people, but not nearly as many people as there are simple libs/neolibs who fully embrace capitalism and its logic.
does calling yourself an anarchist really endear you to radlibs more?
That's not why I describe myself as such. I describe myself as such because that is the praxis I do.
And yes I've had a pretty good track record of pushing people left.
(secretly resisting the urge to point out all the ghoulish shit he supported like the bombing of yugoslavia and the invasion of afghanistan)
Tankie is a meaningless slur in the year of our lord two thousand and twenty two. Pure ideology.
Destroy your personal relationships to win brownie points with a bunch of internet weirdos or else you're not a real communist!
Shut the fuck up lib
A lot of people come to site and complain about their family or friends being chuds/libs. As far as I am concerned there is a definitely a limit to having relationships that are just maintenance and no benefits and a lot of people end up in the closet not wanting to close those relationships because it is socially wrong somehow.
Telling your fucking chud boomer father to fuck off for life is perfectly fine, I wouldn't pass any judgement on that. But there are people that couldn't do it even if those people are truly horrible human beings.
The only thing I'll say is, good joke but keeping toxic relationships may not be worth it period. Like realy real life isn't an RPG don't fall into the trap of collecting friendship points just for the sake of it.
seriously though, read Combat Liberalism. it explains what they're saying
Combat Liberalism doesn’t explain anything.
It’s literally just 1000 words of Mao saying, “These things are liberalism, Liberalism is bad, don’t do these things”
it offers definitions of liberalism that apply directly to what we are seeing here. personally I agree with those definitions. you can choose not to, I really don't care either way
It has some really strong points but I think it’s far less useful to modern day imperial core commies who were radicalised on the internet than it was to Chinese peasants turning their villages into PLA cadres 1937.
Like, I’m pretty sure it says you’re a liberal if you don’t stop and yell at every cop, bank teller and business owner you see then spend the rest of the day getting into twitterfights with blue checks, and I don’t think either of those go far towards building communism or even leading a sustainable life.
you're definitely right about the intensity with which it says you should act but I think it's important to take those points and adapt them to modern day circumstances. it really isn't asking a lot to challenge the propaganda a majority of the people you know are reading, even if it ends up being futile. I get where you're coming from entirely but I also have to put my foot down and reiterate how important I think it is to challenge these narratives, at least when it won't ruin your life to do so
:100-com:
I think it still applies really well within a communist organisation, which is the context it was written in, and 5, 9, 10 & 11 are just good advice in general, but 1, 3, 6 and especially 8 can be actively harmful in a modern, non org context.
I've read it already. It doesn't really apply to Americans/westerners in 2022 who are about a million times more alienated from the people around them than Chinese peasants from 100 years ago and therefore can't really afford to burn bridges socially. This post is stupid as fuck
you're making a value judgment on whether or not you can afford to burn bridges. nobody is asking you to sacrifice your livelihood or cut everyone off for disagreeing but the absolute least you can do is offer a dissenting opinion. if you feel that's too much you are a liberal as defined in the work. it's literally that simple
Don't really see how being alienated makes someone a liberal but if that's what you want to tell yourself, be my guest
that's not what I said. you're worked up by the vitriolic OP and I get that but saying "hey, NATO also had a big part in starting this up" is not a big ask here
That's exactly what you were implying, it's pretty cowardly to back away from it so quickly. Goodbye
I think it's a bad idea to try to strongarm someone into self-sacrifice for the greater good, especially when you do it online with a pissed off tone. that being said, if you don't want to do anything at all as a leftist because you're afraid of consequences you're basically just in it for the aesthetic
I agree with your point for sure. if you live in the US the worst that can happen is you have someone get pissed off at you for what you said. like people are actually dying so making your friends and family say "hey I actually don't give a fuck, shut up" is relatively not that bad
Thinking people's mental health is somehow not related to material conditions lmao. You're a stupid baby
To let things slide for the sake of peace and friendship when a person has clearly gone wrong, and refrain from principled argument because he is an old acquaintance, a fellow townsman, a schoolmate, a close friend, a loved one, an old colleague or old subordinate. Or to touch on the matter lightly instead of going into it thoroughly, so as to keep on good terms. The result is that both the organization and the individual are harmed. This is one type of liberalism.
- Mao Zedong, Combat Liberalism
Yeah, I've read combat liberalism already. It needs to be interpreted differently by a westerner in 2022 than by the Chinese peasants it was originally written for, because our material conditions are different from theirs, namely we have drastically fewer and less secure social bonds. The fact that this needs to be explained is baffling, honestly.
To let things slide for the sake of peace and friendship when a person has clearly gone wrong, and refrain from principled argument because he is an old acquaintance, a fellow townsman, a schoolmate, a close friend, a loved one, an old colleague or old subordinate. [...] This is one type of liberalism.
III. OPPOSE BOOK WORSHIP
Whatever is written in a book is right — such is still the mentality of culturally backward Chinese peasants. Strangely enough, within the Communist Party there are also people who always say in a discussion, "Show me where it's written in the book." When we say that a directive of a higher organ of leadership is correct, that is not just because it comes from "a higher organ of leadership" but because its contents conform with both the objective and subjective circumstances of the struggle and meet its requirements. It is quite wrong to take a formalistic attitude and blindly carry out directives without discussing and examining them in the light of actual conditions simply because they come from a higher organ. It is the mischief done by this formalism which explains why the line and tactics of the Party do not take deeper root among the masses. To carry out a directive of a higher organ blindly, and seemingly without any disagreement, is not really to carry it out but is the most artful way of opposing or sabotaging it.
The method of studying the social sciences exclusively from the book is likewise extremely dangerous and may even lead one onto the road of counter-revolution. Clear proof of this is provided by the fact that whole batches of Chinese Communists who confined themselves to books in their study of the social sciences have turned into counter-revolutionaries. When we say Marxism is correct, it is certainly not because Marx was a "prophet" but because his theory has been proved correct in our practice and in our struggle. We need Marxism in our struggle. In our acceptance of his theory no such formalisation of mystical notion as that of "prophecy" ever enters our minds. Many who have read Marxist books have become renegades from the revolution, whereas illiterate workers often grasp Marxism very well. Of course we should study Marxist books, but this study must be integrated with our country's actual conditions. We need books, but we must overcome book worship, which is divorced from the actual situation.
How can we overcome book worship? The only way is to investigate the actual situation.
Universally, whenever Oppose Book Worship is quoted, it is used in a anti-intellectual and self-refuting way: you claim to oppose book worship and yet you quote this text without actually refuting Combat Liberalism.
Why are you scared to contradict your "friends"? Why are you so afraid of making the truth known? If your friends will break up with you just because you've contradicted them: they are not your friends!
If you truly have friends, it is your responsibility to educate them. You are knowledgeable here, they're not. They, as your friend, trust you and value your opinion more. You, as their friend, care about them and wish not for them to stay ignorant. Educate them! If you don't, not only are you failing your job as a communist, you are failing your job as a friend.
A liberal is unprincipled and stands for nothing. By refusing to make a principled stand for the truth, you are a spineless liberal. By refusing to make a principled stand for the truth, by refusing to make a principled stand for what's right, you are the same as the spineless liberals of Weimar Germany who watched motionlessly as Hitler took power. You are the person who stands by blankly as communists are dragged out of their homes and taken away to be killed. You are the person who is too scared to speak out against Hitler. You are a spineless liberal of the highest order, who refuses to speak to even your friends who support you and will listen to you.
You are a liberal.
This isn't self-refutation. It's a critique of your intellectual framework within itself to show that it is inconsistent and to change the terms of the debate. The self-refutation is done on your terms to show that they are unreasonable.
Mfers be like bro how is sqrt(2) irrational you contradicted yourself
Lmao aren't you the dumb fuck who keeps on posting CIA neo maoist shit?
Clearly one couldn't expect someone who lacks understanding of the idea of a proof by contradiction to understand that one can post a link without agreeing to everything in it simply because it's interesting.
If you really took that to heart in America in 2022 and tried to follow those words exactly you would be shot in less than a week. Shut the fuck up
No one is going to shoot you for combating liberalism. If your friends will shoot you if you contradict them, they are not your friends. The worst that can happen is that they will get pissed at you.
Touch grass.
I posted a few links/memes on FB which basically accounted to "Are you sure you want to trust the US's word on this one?" and received in response: "<REDACTED> sniveling tankie <REDACTED>. <REDACTED lit on fire and die <REDACTED>."
Give a timeline of Ukrain from WW1 or so onward. And like, whatever, your enemies want you dead? How many times do we talk about chud who get the wall? We both want each other to not exist.
Oh my yes; if no one was wishing death on me, I'd be wondering what I'm doing wrong. It was just hilarious to see someone unleash such bloodlust because I questioned the validity of their bloodlust.
Lol. Call them dronies, brow beat them for not being civil and ruining the marketplace of ideas.
Not my idea. Some comrade on here mentioned it first and I appropriated the term from them.
never give out a verbatim social media response, things are searchable for feds
Well I'm not in the US, but I suppose that wouldn't stop them. Thank you for the tip, I will be more careful in the future.
(Two asshole nation states fighting)
Imperial Core Leftists:
:is-this: “is this a team sport?”
no one says pick Putins side but since the convo is so utterly, obsessively pro Nato/"Hitler=Putin and invaded cause he is crazy and russians are uruk hai" unhinged EVERYWHERE , anything other than primarily higlighting Nato and the US creating and being primarily at fault for the situation and crisis leading to the invasion does nothing but reinforce those narratives and biases. When you have tens of thousands of baby leftists becoming pro Nato overnight and the propaganda being at full force, countering that would innevitably involve a ton of Nato and US talk .
And even if your read is as you say "this is a war between two imperialist blocs, at least equaly at fault", then the "imperial core" leftist if part of a concious revolutionar class cannot but desire the defeat of his bloc or at the very least focus on the rhetoric against it
I would like to add my opinion in this but it’s never good and I’m not going to pretend I know a lot about how the conflict is going or what people want
I don't think anyone here is the One True Leftist to be honest. all you can really do is try your best to be informed on the context of what's happening and push back against simplistic narratives that argue in favor of spilling blood for NATO
Don’t debate if you don’t know enough, just start attacking how much they want to drink human blood. Rant about how they’re cannibals, fart, piss yourself, summon demons inside of their house, fuck it.
Even just be a Socrates. That guy was a fucking bastard. Examine every little corner of their position with a microscope. Ask question of every hazy detail and every justification until they are tired of answering.
He was such a glorious asshole. I love that the ratfucker chose to drink poison and die rather than just apologize.
Spamming sources is a major part of a debate. If you can link someone that's already made your argument better, that counts as your argument cause you agree with it. That's like, pretty much why reading theory is good.
You'll get there. It takes a lot of work and there aren't any shortcuts.
Don't be a Socrates to own people until you really know how to/what you're talking about. Socrates method as a teaching/owning tool only works if you can lead someone along with questions. That shit takes work.
Hmm. Maybe. But I think you can teach people about basic human decency even if you aren't necessarily 100% on the thing they are being indecent about. LOL.
You don't really need to read Imperialism to know what to do here. The quickest possible peace is the best outcome. The NATO states do not want a peace, they want to support a nationalist insurgency in Ukraine against a Russian occupation. If you are in a NATO member state, it is your duty to speak against your country's involvement in the conflict.
This does not imply support for Russian conquest. A ceasefire agreement should be reached immediately so that a proper peace can be established. The point is NATO out and Russia out, not NATO or Russia.
If someone correctly points out that there will eventually be conflict in Ukraine again, they have correctly identified imperialism. Both Russia and the US/EU/NATO (the "West") want Ukraine to be their zone of control (they want a monopoly in Ukraine) that they can export capital to which will be worked by the Ukrainian proletariat to generate profits for foreign capitalists. Conflict over this region will persist until we establish a global economic order where production is determined not by what is profitable for capitalists, but by what is in the interest of the masses. This new economic order can only be achieved by overthrowing the ruling classes who would have us kill our fellow worker in some far off land for the gain of the capitalist.
Ultimately for us in the West, we can only actually act against our government, so that is what we should do.
My wife told me i talk so much about capitalism and that it makes her sad. She also asked that I don't talk about Ukraine-Russia with my in laws :yes-honey-left:
Also, this shit has shown me a bunch of so called leftists who would be supporting Operation Gladio if it were happening today (which it is, but whatever).
I don't think there is anything wrong with taking the "Russian invasion bad" side to start with. There is so much propaganda flying around right now that many people will shut down and stop listening if you don't. But obviously you need to steer the conversation after that. The Russian invasion is bad because they fell for NATO's baiting and did exactly what NATO wanted. Never speak about Donetsk and Luhansk without including Taiwan and Hong Kong. If you go into a conversation in the imperial core today with the take that the Russian invasion is a good thing you'll just look bad and alienate people. Also, the Russian invasion actually is bad for tactical reasons if not for moral ones. I have my problems with it on moral grounds (which may or may not be because of the propaganda I've been exposed to. I am not immune to propaganda and neither are you) but I feel quite comfortable saying that the invasion is wrong just on the grounds that it has strengthened NATO.
You don't have to actually support Russia, but you should always hammer home that Russia is bad because they are doing what NATO wants, and NATO are the true villains. I live in a country that may join NATO because of this, and this is just how I have had the most success speaking to people about it. Nothing wrong with opposing the Russian invasion per se, but you might as well start discussing your favorite color. It doesn't matter what you think, and even if you're right and Russia is just being terribly awful it just distracts from the only point worth making.
Never ever get bogged down discussing Russia and Putin specifically. They are bad. They are bad because NATO...
And if i am not in the imperial core can i have a tiny crumb of criticism for the regional imperialist state that is bombing the neighbours to shreds?
We have shit tons of refugees flowing in from Ukraine, i'm yet to see one Nazi.
Nazis, the shock troops of American imperialism, are the last to leave Ukraine.
Last week everyone here said they were the first to leave.
I think they're talking about the early reports that Azov fled to Poland to form a government in waiting
I agree that different positioning should lead to different focus and rhetoric on the trends you try to combat as a leftist so guess OPs post can be true from a anglosphere perspective with the unhinged anti Russian craze and with the stanning of Nato across the board in the majority of the "left".. Here in the Balkans, at least in a bunch of countries there is some deep rooted anti-nato/western bias, especially among older generations (even if it doesnt come from a "left analysis") so naturaly the online and offline convo among regular people beyond the political sphere is more "balanced" and less unhinged and you dont have armies of baby leftists overnight shifting into pro Nato narratives or uncriticaly shallowing anything. Even the hardlne "tankies" here in greece are "both are worse and equaly shitty and should be opposed on equal capacities" regarding Russian imperialism and Nato in their stance .
On your last point i guess the Nazi problem in Ukraine more has to do with those far right groups being by far the most well organized , ideologicaly motivated , militarized and mobilized outside the liberal democratic electoral sphere and l having free reign to exert disproportinate to their numbers control and influence in the army, police and mayors or local politicians. And so at this point they do controll and lead the "defense" and armed forces in a lot of eastern and south Ukrainian cities and absorb more and more of their surrunding groups and also volunteers. There have been reports here in Greece from the Greek minority there (while also being anti putin) of how in Mariupol Azov basicaly is running the "defense" of the city in an utterly fascist and civilian-human shield fashion. FInding ideologicaly commited tattoo having Nazis among Ukrainian refugees is very unlikely i feel.
There is a big anti-NATO bias indeed (i remember my parents changing their mind about NATO-membership after the campaign in Serbia) but it's not NATO bombing an eastern european country at the moment and that's what a lot of Eastern European leftists try to convey here. Pointing out (correctly) that NATO had a major role in this won't stop the war and that's the main issue right now.
This is for imperial core people. If you aren't in a NATO country it's different
All imperialism should be denounced.
Learn what leftism and communism means before going on a rant next time.
Why is every single socialist and anti-imperialist nation on Earth siding with Russia explicitly or implicitly? Cuba is imperialist? DPRK is imperialist? Nicaragua is imperialist? Come on
Russia may be imperialist in general, but in this case they are acting in defense against imperialism - as they did in Syria
Yeah, I'm not fucking ride or die for Russia but they're semi correct here. CRITICAL SUPPORT IS A CONCEPT
Houthi, Iran, Syria, Palestine are all big pro-Russia as well. This should give you a clue westerners
Just because these non-imperialist countries and actors side with Russia (because of Western-bloc aggression against them) does not mean that Russia itself is non-imperialist, or that it can't actively engage in Imperialism in other places
Why would DPRK back an imperialist war? When have they ever once backed imperialism? Ever? Do you think you know the mindset and context of being besieged by NATO better than them? Russia and DPRK understand the geopolitical reality better than any western chauvinist in their bubble
Because a besieged nation needs international allies / trade-partners. They need to align themselves with a world-power to protect their economic and military security. When the Soviet-Union existed they could ally themselves with an openly anti-imperialist power.
The Soviet-Union has been replaced by an imperialist-capitalist nation tough. So because the west is actively vying for their destruction while support South Korea, and Russia is willing to opportunistically support them to combat western expansion.That means that it is a neccessity for the DPRK to align themselves with the clearly imperialist Russia
Blah blah blah find me one other example in all of human history of the DPRK supporting a single imperialist action.
Once you do, I will admit defeat to you. If you cannot, you must do more research on this subject and self crit. Because DPRK knows imperialism better than you do.
DPRK has close and brotherly ties with the superpower China, what are you even talking about
The DPRK condemned the Vietnamese counter-invasion of Cambodia, even after the Khmer Rogue had invaded Vietnam first and massacred thousands of Vietnamese civilians, and supported the Chinese invasion of Vietnam. They didn’t really have a choice in either of those, or backing Russia now, because Juche self reliance or not, if China ever turned hostile the DPRK’s position would become utterly untenable.
DPRK backed Vietnam and the USSR. China’s shameful actions and pathetic alliance with the Khmer Rouge is a painful sticking point in DPRK-China relations to this day.
https://thediplomat.com/2017/09/war-of-the-dragons-why-north-korea-does-not-trust-china/
Huh, what I read said otherwise.
Edit: yeah, our sources don’t contradict, mine says they supported it at the time, yours says it was a shocking realisation to DPRK leadership that the PRC so brutally turned on a close ally over so little, and it’s made them more cautious going forwards. What you linked never says the DPRK didn’t issue a statement against Vietnam, or that they publically condemned the PRCs invasion while it was ongoing.
If anything the combination of the two is evidence that DPRK leadership does engage in realpolitik, and has before issued statements that don't reflect their true beliefs. It would be honestly irresponsible of them not to.
Yeah you are right, I got too cocky. I shall eat crow. They did a bit of politicking back and forth during the sino-Soviet split trying to maintain the least revisionist allies, but there’s no real winner during the split. It just sucked and both sides did cringe things.
Seems like DPRK backed the USSR to the hilt until Stalin died, then swapped to Mao when Kruschev got in, then swapped to Brezhnev when Deng got in.
Late Mao and Deng did some really terrible foreign policy during the time that Kruschev was being revisionist. It’s lose-lose.
Yeah, an China isn't as strong or powerful as the entire Western bloc, so to combat western hegemony AES states need to ally themselves with non-western capitalist/imperialist states like Russia, wich while imperialist still need to oppose Western imperialism.
And right here you have an example of the DPRK giving nominal support to an imperialist power doing an imperialist action, tough i doubt they're actually materially supporting it
You can’t use this as your example that’s circular. Come on lib I ain’t got all day
Adress my first point then.
I don't need to provide an example of the DPRK tacitly supporting non-western imperialism because it's not relevant and doesn't actually prove anything.
No shut the fuck up and tell me when DPRK was wrong on foreign policy. I will be repeating this until you give an answer. It’s a heuristic with a 100% success rate, so if you are going against it you need to make a stronger case than typical boring chauvinist trot shit
And I'm willing to opportunistically support Russia to prevent the possibility of thermonuclear war.
Read Lenin
Where is Russia exporting Capital to Ukraine? Where are they extracting Surplus Value? All I see is NATO weaponry, Nazis, TFSA, Belarusian opposition and western “volunteers” being military pummeled
He writes extensively about the concept of critical support and about what actual imperialism is in a book called Imperialism the Highest Stage of Capitalism.
Yeah bit that's not the subject right now. They aren't doing an imperialism on Ukraine.
They're invading a sovereign country to prevent it from leaving their sphere of influence and joining the USA's sphere of influence. It's a purely imperialist conflict.
It’s not sovereign it’s a NATO putsche and they were building UK airbases (NATO)
You are being a chauvinist westerner and NATO apologist
It's easy to paint someone as bloodthirsty when you don't read the terms of surrender. Neutrality is seriously not a huge ask
Ukrainians aren’t fighting to defend their sovereignty and nation, they are fighting to defend their 8-year old NATO backed Nazi regime. I hope they surrender as soon as possible to minimize loss of life
Fully agree. I guess wanting to minimize casualties is imperialism now
I like China’s position, they are playing the good cop. They can negotiate peace, rebuild Ukraine and Russia, drag both away from the west and create a new multipolar world along with Africa, South America and the Middle East. I hope a mutually beneficial peace can be brokered soon and Russia can achieve its security objectives while Ukraine can remain territorially sovereign, albeit without Crimea or Donbas.
I'm maybe not seeing it cause I'm in canada but I would like to hope that non aligned nations will see how NATO absolutely used Ukraine for its own ends and then threw its people under the tank treads is being noticed.
Brazil, Saudi Arabia, India. These 3 are the ones up in the air right now. They have expressed distaste, but will not sanction in any way. India is a very complex place, I will say there is much hope there and much reactionary misery and it’s hard to judge where they are going to fall between Russia/China vs. EU/Anglo-American Empire.
Brazil too, even with the disgusting pig Bolsonaro in power they are remaining relatively neutral. If Lula gets in then that’s an easy win for our side and will steer Brazil towards Russia/China.
Saudi Arabia is totally gonna go with the west let’s not kid ourselves. Surprised with how neutral Israel and Saudi Arabia have acted. Thought they would both go into the west camp immediately?
I've got a co-worker from India that I've got a good rapport with. His take was pretty much the same as ours minus communism. It was just nice to hear someone IRL that wasn't all in on Russia is a Bond Villain. What I meant was more how non aligned nations would trust or work with nato down the line after all this.
I’m not just talking alignment in this conflict. I think we are seeing the birth of a new multipolar world order. Russia and China are both dumping USD and Russia is re-organizing its economy into warmode. I think for a while nations are going to feel immense pressure to pick sides, at least US will push that
Capitalist vs capitalist cold war. Yeah that seems about right for our current times
More like Imperialist vs. Anti-imperialist Cold War with Russia happening to be the primary bulwark due to its position next to Europe. Poor Russia. They have to always be the ones to defend against the demons from the west. They always pay so high a price. I’m glad they picked the right side despite being capitalists.
I guess capitalist competition is better than monopoly. A new Cold War would give me fomo for the first one where my support didn't have as many asterisks
Yah the anti-fascist conference Russia is holding where they invited all their worst reactionary allies + China was major wtf
Why couldn’t they have invited all their based socialist allies like DPRK, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Cuba, etc?
Cause Russia still isn't Good Guy country, they just happen to be more correct here.
How can it become Good Guy country, any progressive revolution will surely be coopted by western capital. Reforms during wartime can be quick and massive in scale. It’s theoretically possible Russia could become some type of war state capitalism that resembles the PRC.
Don’t think Putin is the one to do it. Maybe they can be a communist movement for his successor soon. I dunno.
Nowhere did i support NATO aggression or expansion, so i don't know why you accused me of that.
You're doing the exact same thing as Westerners who accuse anybody who is anti-NATO of being "putinists"
Besides, just because the west does imperialism in Ukraine doesn't mean that it's not Imperialism when Russia does the same thing.
Jesus Christ shut the fuck up Liberal
:pigpoop:
You are going to be here whining when “imperialist” DPRK reunites with the South and expels the colonialists. You are going to be whining about “imperialist” China when they reclaim Taipei. You will be whining about “imperialist” Palestine and their allies when they destroy Israel. You are going to be whining about “imperialist” Cuba when they retake Guantanamo.
Fighting NATO outposts is not the same as imperialism.
“Legitimate territory that was stolen” who is the irredentist nationalist now?
The reason why fighting imperialism is good isn’t to restore your sacred lands dipshit. It’s to DESTROY THE EMPIRE. Ukraine is being turned into a fortified base of the empire. Simple as.
Did you just completely flip the argument you where makimg because i agreed with you that AES states taking former terrirtory isn't imperialism and didn't fit your made up strawman?
Besides imperialist nations can, and have many times in history destroyed empire before. They have simply replaced it with another one, wich is 100% Russias intention in this conflict.
I don’t know much but isn’t russia’s primary goal in this war to destroy Nato as a concept/organisation by exposing their lies and ineptitude
No Putin doesn’t give a fuck about that. Dude just doesn’t want American nukes in the country next to him.
Saying it's Russians goal seems a bit ambitious. I think they just want the disputed territory and Ukraine to be neutral and fuck off. NATO is showing its whole association to the rest of the world which works for that idea but it's also fanning the flames of NATO support within NATO countries. I doubt that's being seen as a net positive for Putin but that's also kind of a thing there. If he were acting totally based on being an evil oligarch then how does he benefit financially or materially in any personal or national way from this increase in tension? It was probably seen as necessary but risky cause it is.
It's high risk high reward and it was a forced hand as well. Only time will tell
Yes, because Russia isn't doing this to restore full democracy and sovereignty to Ukraine, but simply to bring them under their influence. Russia only opposes NATO because it stands in the way of it's own imperial project. Not out of an ideological opposition to al imperialist actions.
Russia only opposes NATO because it stands in the way of it’s own imperial project
Holy fuck the :brainworms: on this one. They don’t want a hostile country to put nukes at their front door. Imagine the response if Mexico entered into a military alliance with China and then the Chinese military put missiles right on the Texan border lol
Not out of an ideological opposition to al imperialist actions.
Agreed.
if Mexico entered into a military alliance with China and then the Chinese military put missiles right on the Texan border lol
Or like, the USSR put missiles on Cuba. Luckily these things are mere thought experiments :thinkin-lenin:
No I have always been consistent. Military resistance against the expansion of the imperialist hegemony is anti-imperialist and based. Always. In all cases. Whether that’s seizing back land they stole or invading to destroy their forward positions or stopping a coup (or reversing one).
Did you just completely flip the argument you where makimg
No you’re just a liberal lol
As an internationalist I will attack every imperialist wherever I found them.
Okay, so what should Russia have done in this situation? What effect does such criticism have in NATO countries where most people here live? What good does denouncing an imperialism that isn't currently being done matter at this time? How does that help the left and what would be the consequences. Don't be a moralist
You wouldn't accept any answer except war with Ukraine.
There is no use in talking to you.
Soooo...what should have Russia done instead? Also invading acountry doesn't equal imperialism. Read Lenin. It's a neighboring country that has been constantly courting international American/nato interests and doing ethnic cleansing in regions that voted in favor of independence several times. Russia has yet to show any aim to occupy Ukraine permanently or to use them for cheap foreign labor. Doing a war doesn't make you an imperialist. You could call Putim that for other reasons but not this specific one.
Also I don't support war in Ukraine which is why they should surrender and end the bloodshed cause that's the only way its not gonna just get worse.
invading acountry doesn’t equal imperialism
Fucking thank you.
tfw you have internalized imperialism so hard that any military actions by any state at all is hard-locked to “imperialism”.
Also what happens when you don’t bother reading what imperialism is lol
Maybe try not calling everyone who disagrees with you a liberal before they even speak. People might take you more seriously.
There have been ~20k deaths in Ukraine since the start of the civil war. Almost all of them could have been avoided if Russia had not taken Crimea.
Doing a war doesn’t make you an imperialist.
Taking over a sovereign country because Russia wants warm water ports and a route for natural gas lines makes them imperialist. Anyone arguing differently is not arguing in good faith.
Ukraine should never surrender to Putin's Russia. They would become a vassal state like Belorussia.
The deaths happened as part of resistance to Maidan, which preceded Crimea annexation by a full year. The NATO-backed coup started the civil war, not Russia. You need to be more educated on the context before you speak with such derisive authority
There have been ~20k deaths in Ukraine since the start of the civil war. Almost all of them could have been avoided if Russia had not taken Crimea
Oh my god the amount of queer people, leftists, and minorities who have been murdered by Ukrainian fascists… this is a gross fucking take.
The people’s republics have a right to self determination. I’m really surprised there’s not more Anarchists raising hell about that.
Want to show some numbers on those deaths? Russians have killed 2000 Ukrainian civilians in less than a week.
Ukraine has a right to self determination as well.
I'm really worried about how delusional some leftists are about how brutal the Russians will be to the LGBT community once they take power. There are a lot more neo-nazis in Russia than Ukraine.
Almost all of them could have been avoided if Russia had not taken Crimea.
Take a look at the polling done by the UN in the years leading up to the annexation.
Nearly 70% of Crimeans wanted to be a part of Russia.
:very-intelligent: Clearly the answer is to let the American funded fascists murder everyone who wants that and throw their bodies in mass graves.
ANSWER MY DIRECT QUESTION. WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST RUSSIA SHOULD HAVE DONE?
The real answer is that Russia should have quietly submitted as coups keep happening all around them, slowly suffocating them
No, no, I want to hear the answer from the guy who was owning me so hard until I pressed the question.
We want the war to end. We want NATO to stay the fuck away and for Ukraine to surrender and minimize loss of life. We want the 1 million people of Donbas and the 13 million Russian speaking Ukrainians to know peace instead of terror and shelling for 8 years.
It’s the NATO/UKR supporters that are pushing martyrdom, false hope, suicidal guerrilla tactics, insurgency, terror. They are bringing in ISIS from Turkey to fight on their behalf, they released all the prisoners and they have Nazi battalions. These people are the bloody warmongers and they are the ones that created this entire situation. They are preventing evacuations of civilians to use them as shields.
You have been warned
See my other response, I meant it more generally and rhetorically as foreboding what is to come (Insurgency, AZOV+ISIS combo, lots of civilian deaths, many killed by Ukrainians themselves). Also I’m drunk
The warning is rhetorical and general, not directed at you or someone specific. I just mean that you will see in the upcoming months great terrors unleashed if the Ukrainian government doesn’t come to its senses. There’s no going back now and only one way out of this, and that’s decisive Russian victory and for Putin’s regime to remain intact until this operation is complete at the very least. NATO is going to try and push a color revolution.
https://i.imgur.com/5oghF71.jpg
This is TFSA. If you know anything about the Syrian Civil War, this is Turkish-backed Daesh. ISIS. Can’t wait to see if they get along with Nazis.
The war was started 8 years ago by NATO, Russia is just trying to finish it.
(Not the person you responded to.)
TBH IMO Russia should've done nothing. Fuck nation-states. Though, of course, working-class Russians could've gone as individuals and affinity groups and lent their own muscle, as leftists have done to good effect in places like Revolutionary Catalonia and Syria.
Who else should've done something is leftists in U.S. and other NATO countries, and I'm pretty pissed at them/us for not coming out and joining some of us who were protesting the jingoism so we could build to the point where we could do more than protest. (Fucking back-to-brunchers!)
That kind of opposition—and solidarity with Ukrainian leftists—is what can do things like back NATO off without the war, disarm the neo-Nazis, and allow people in Ukraine to defend themselves and start to recover (including building autonomy for the communities who want it).
(removed for sectarianism)
I'm not sure what this reply said, but I'd ask you to look at the other comments I've made in this thread, and realize that I'm taking your position far more than that of the people you were arguing with. I know damned well who is at the historic heart of this mess (U.S./NATO). I just don't appreciate nation-states acting like they are the solution, and I'd hope that people understand at least that Russia is an explicitly capitalist nation-state and agree to some extent at least in this circumstance that what it's doing is in the interests of its capitalist puppet masters and not for any "altruistic" reasons.
Nothing actually got removed. I worte that myself. I'm just like...not an anarchist but also don't really have anything against what you're saying aside from that
People fall for my self mods a lot. Reasons are only ever posted in the mod log and they're usually following the actual removed post instead of the removed by mod thing. I do leave hints
The majority of the deaths are on the donbass and republics region and them breaking off and trying to be pro russian independant was concurrent with Russia taking Crimea or even earlier. The post 2014 coup and far right dominated Ukrainian military would be shelling those regions into submission and be enacting ethnic supression efforts no matter what Russia did in Crimea. Look at any map taken before the coup. Thos regions supported the Russian couped president at 80%+ and the ideological ,geopolitical and historical viewpointsof the western ukraine dominated post 2014 order and those regions are and would only have been solved within Ukraine by the same civil war conflicts we so
Answer the question. They tried diplomatic routes. They were ignored in the UN for 8 years, their ceasefires not upheld at all.
All imperialism must be denounced, but even in an interimperialist war not all sides must be equaly focused on or attacked depending on the historical and geopolitical context, world unipolarity and most of all depending on what country the revolutionary left doing the analysis is located and exists in and what mainstream narratives and propaganda it finds around it and has to combat
Okay, and?
I kinda have news: whether Russia has imperial ambitions or not, it really, really doesn't have the capacity to be imperialist right now. If it seriously tries to take and hold all of Ukraine, it's only going to steepen its own decline. And likely its ambitions aren't that at the moment, and it is just trying to do serious damage and force major concessions (like it's existing demand that NATO stay out of Ukraine, both technically and in practice by not occupying it with troops, bases, weaponry, and continued subversive politics).
But either way, Russian war making should be opposed.
...as should U.S.'s and Ukraine's (hello Donbas).
Do you live in Russia? If so, okay I guess. If not, your "denunciation" is probably pretty meaningless. Like, what are you actually going to do about it? Spit into the wind? Help support war making and sanctions against the working-class people already being oppressed by the Russian nation-state (yikes)?
If you acknowledge that this is a reactionary war between 2 imperialist blocs with , at the very least, both equaly at fault in different ways then i guess the revolutionary leftists inside the west cannot but desire the defeat of their own bloc or at the very least focus rhetoricaly on it (given the extremely dominant propaganda and trends rn towards the other side)
GO THE FUCK OUTSIDE JESUS FUCKING CHRIST
i swear to fucking god you dipshits think being a leftist is just talking at people and quoting theory you don't fucking understand.
Go do something fucking useful for once in your fucking life
Lol, my co-workers got hit by the Russian sanctions after a higher up at his side gig placed an order for Russian binoculars and they froze his account and took out his paycheck.
We don't even need to agitate the workers against NATO, they're doing it on their own. That co-worker went from "fuck Russia" to "fuck NATO" overnight because of that .
That being said, agitate anyways. Explain the history of anti-communism and violence inherent inNATO. Explain how NATOs collapsing of the USSR directly lead to the total destabilization of Eastern Europe and the rise of fascist parties and imperial powers in the formerly united socialist block.
Explain that Russia isn't acting out of some inherent brain pan desire for violence, but in a reaction to decades of NATO agression and destruction of all peaceful channels that it's predecessor in the USSR could use. The very nationalism that the NATO powers championed as "freedom and democracy" in Russia 30 years ago is now the evil that they seek to destroy because it's violence has been turned against them.
This is the West's global strategy. All the enemies of America and Western Europe today are the abandoned remnants of the counter-revolitionaries they used to kill humanity and strangle socialism in it's cradle.
Selected Works of Mao Tse-tung
COMBAT LIBERALISM September 7, 1937
We stand for active ideological struggle because it is the weapon for ensuring unity within the Party and the revolutionary organizations in the interest of our fight. Every Communist and revolutionary should take up this weapon.
But liberalism rejects ideological struggle and stands for unprincipled peace, thus giving rise to a decadent, Philistine attitude and bringing about political degeneration in certain units and individuals in the Party and the revolutionary organizations.
Liberalism manifests itself in various ways.
To let things slide for the sake of peace and friendship when a person has clearly gone wrong, and refrain from principled argument because he is an old acquaintance, a fellow townsman, a schoolmate, a close friend, a loved one, an old colleague or old subordinate. Or to touch on the matter lightly instead of going into it thoroughly, so as to keep on good terms. The result is that both the organization and the individual are harmed. This is one type of liberalism.
To indulge in irresponsible criticism in private instead of actively putting forward one's suggestions to the organization. To say nothing to people to their faces but to gossip behind their backs, or to say nothing at a meeting but to gossip afterwards. To show no regard at all for the principles of collective life but to follow one's own inclination. This is a second type.
To let things drift if they do not affect one personally; to say as little as possible while knowing perfectly well what is wrong, to be worldly wise and play safe and seek only to avoid blame. This is a third type.
Not to obey orders but to give pride of place to one's own opinions. To demand special consideration from the organization but to reject its discipline. This is a fourth type.
To indulge in personal attacks, pick quarrels, vent personal spite or seek revenge instead of entering into an argument and struggling against incorrect views for the sake of unity or progress or getting the work done properly. This is a fifth type.
To hear incorrect views without rebutting them and even to hear counter-revolutionary remarks without reporting them, but instead to take them calmly as if nothing had happened. This is a sixth type.
To be among the masses and fail to conduct propaganda and agitation or speak at meetings or conduct investigations and inquiries among them, and instead to be indifferent to them and show no concern for their well-being, forgetting that one is a Communist and behaving as if one were an ordinary non-Communist. This is a seventh type.
To see someone harming the interests of the masses and yet not feel indignant, or dissuade or stop him or reason with him, but to allow him to continue. This is an eighth type.
To work half-heartedly without a definite plan or direction; to work perfunctorily and muddle along--"So long as one remains a monk, one goes on tolling the bell." This is a ninth type.
To regard oneself as having rendered great service to the revolution, to pride oneself on being a veteran, to disdain minor assignments while being quite unequal to major tasks, to be slipshod in work and slack in study. This is a tenth type.
To be aware of one's own mistakes and yet make no attempt to correct them, taking a liberal attitude towards oneself. This is an eleventh type.
We could name more. But these eleven are the principal types.
They are all manifestations of liberalism.
Liberalism is extremely harmful in a revolutionary collective. It is a corrosive which eats away unity, undermines cohesion, causes apathy and creates dissension. It robs the revolutionary ranks of compact organization and strict discipline, prevents policies from being carried through and alienates the Party organizations from the masses which the Party leads. It is an extremely bad tendency.
Liberalism stems from petty-bourgeois selfishness, it places personal interests first and the interests of the revolution second, and this gives rise to ideological, political and organizational liberalism.
People who are liberals look upon the principles of Marxism as abstract dogma. They approve of Marxism, but are not prepared to practice it or to practice it in full; they are not prepared to replace their liberalism by Marxism. These people have their Marxism, but they have their liberalism as well--they talk Marxism but practice liberalism; they apply Marxism to others but liberalism to themselves. They keep both kinds of goods in stock and find a use for each. This is how the minds of certain people work.
Liberalism is a manifestation of opportunism and conflicts fundamentally with Marxism. It is negative and objectively has the effect of helping the enemy; that is why the enemy welcomes its preservation in our midst. Such being its nature, there should be no place for it in the ranks of the revolution.
We must use Marxism, which is positive in spirit, to overcome liberalism, which is negative. A Communist should have largeness of mind and he should be staunch and active, looking upon the interests of the revolution as his very life and subordinating his personal interests to those of the revolution; always and everywhere he should adhere to principle and wage a tireless struggle against all incorrect ideas and actions, so as to consolidate the collective life of the Party and strengthen the ties between the Party and the masses; he should be more concerned about the Party and the masses than about any private person, and more concerned about others than about himself. Only thus can he be considered a Communist.
All loyal, honest, active and upright Communists must unite to oppose the liberal tendencies shown by certain people among us, and set them on the right path. This is one of the tasks on our ideological front.
Transcription by the Maoist Documentation Project. HTML revised 2004 by Marxists.org
Selected Works of Mao Tse-tung
Holy shit, you really got the radlibs fired up with this post lmao
:lenin-laugh:
